267 replies to this topic

[Toasty Warrior]

I also heard rumors that the FBI was going to get involved if OneManga wasn't going to disband.

[Dreamer]

I also heard rumors that the FBI was going to get involved if OneManga wasn't going to disband.

News Source?

[Insurrection]

Hey guys I just thought of something, the Japanese have to publish it, that requires that the Manga must be in a PDF file somewhere, which means you already have a electronic form of the chapter, so what if you just translate and edit the file the directly. I understand that the Japanese don't care about the American market but Publishers could make a bigger deal for this.

[Dreamer]

Hey guys I just thought of something, the Japanese have to publish it, that requires that the Manga must be in a PDF file somewhere, which means you already have a electronic form of the chapter, so what if you just translate and edit the file the directly. I understand that the Japanese don't care about the American market but Publishers could make a bigger deal for this.

That may be what OpenManga is trying to agree with, with the Japanese publishers to do digital manga sales.

[Insurrection]

If Openmanga bypasses the US market it means publishing sales will continue to decrease without online sales. If we could convince the US market to upgrade before the Japanese market and make a case for no decensitizing for publication there would be a market in waiting. And Uzu since mangas are mostly black and white, they could be on a kindle.

[dl316bh]

I'm done saying my piece. I'm in the minority obviously of people who don't feel that I should be entitled to free stuff.

I may as well just say outright that I agree with you on all this. I've been trying to keep this whole conversation as civil as possible, despite obvious difficulties; though James and Ukakikage have been pleasant to discuss this with. Conversations like this - especially when it comes to the internet, which often seems to foster the sense of entitlement - always find a way to go south real quick regardless, however.

The trouble is threads like this are often a magnet for the "how dare they take away my illegally read material, this is the internet" types, so dissenters... preeeeeetty much like folks walking into a lions den.

I could use the saying "customer is always right" thing, but no business believes in that anymore.

Well, there's the rub. The customer is always right to a point. You hold fast and firm to that, the customer is going to just straight up take advantage of you. I've seen it happen on smaller deals - watch how quickly someone turns around and demands a refund for the most minute, non-existant s*** if you ever try fixing someones car for pay because god dammit the customer is always right and you will be reported etc - and it's even worse with corporations or people you don't have to interact with in person.

When the customer thinks it's okay for them to essentially steal from you, the line of the customer being right has pretty much been crossed.

Hey guys I just thought of something, the Japanese have to publish it, that requires that the Manga must be in a PDF file somewhere, which means you already have a electronic form of the chapter, so what if you just translate and edit the file the directly. I understand that the Japanese don't care about the American market but Publishers could make a bigger deal for this.

Depends on how much computers are involved, I guess; I imagine some probably just use some old fashioned ways.

Edited by dl316bh, 26 July 2010 - 04:29 AM.

[Prime]

I'm not trying to be 'the good guy', and please don't try to tell me what I am and am not talking about. Just because you obviously don't agree with my views does not make them any less valid than yours.

I'm just not being spoiled and crying over 'my free manga is getting taken away, when the rest of the world has to pay for their products and if they don't pay it's illegal, but I am entitled to my manga being free because I'm 'American', and that's just how things work.'

I'm done saying my piece. I'm in the minority obviously of people who don't feel that I should be entitled to free stuff. You can't always get every little thing you want in life. Sometimes you have to suck it up, and pay what is asked for and actually owed.

Sometimes 'freedom' comes at a 'price'.

I'm not saying I don't agree with you're views , there just irrelevant. Also I never said anyone was entitled to anything where did you come up with that idea? The point is it don't matter what you think people will continue to get it for free for ever and ever because the internet itself is the biggest free media market and that's all there is to it , it has nothing to do with America getting it free it's the internet , and it wont change anytime soon. But they are going about it the wrong way , if they want to make money taking away all the exposure is not the way to do it , because America does not have the market for Manga like Japan does. The market for Manga in the USA is the internet there is no TV commercial to buy Manga.

Yea you're trying to be the good guy saying "Don't whine just because its not free anymore!" when you know where Manga company's stand now , but you will continue to view it free on the internet also.

[Insurrection]

I'm not saying I don't agree with you're views , there just irrelevant.

Ouch, not cool dude.

[Codus N]

After reading through this thread, here's my 2 cents worth. The reason some people prefer free streaming instead of online payment on music, movies, anime,etc is because some of them are probably still wary of online payment as well as probably still underage to have a credit card. It's that simple. Not to mention those that are living outside the U.S can't possibly be able to pay online payment.

[James S Cassidy]

I may as well just say outright that I agree with you on all this. I've been trying to keep this whole conversation as civil as possible, despite obvious difficulties; though James and Ukakikage have been pleasant to discuss this with. Conversations like this - especially when it comes to the internet, which often seems to foster the sense of entitlement - always

You're welcome.

Well, there's the rub. The customer is always right to a point. You hold fast and firm to that, the customer is going to just straight up take advantage of you. I've seen it happen on smaller deals - watch how quickly someone turns around and demands a refund for the most minute, non-existant s*** if you ever try fixing someones car for pay because god dammit the customer is always right and you will be reported etc - and it's even worse with corporations or people you don't have to interact with in person.

When the customer thinks it's okay for them to essentially steal from you, the line of the customer being right has pretty much been crossed.

That is true. I can not deny that, but do you also think it is not right for companies to screw the paying customers? Some companies do screw the paying consumers like myself and yet they think they can get away with it. Now not every company does this, but a good amount does. So don't anyone think the companies always play ball.

Does a company do something to protect their assets for the customer or to line their own pocket? I can think of a few who do it to line their own pocket and others who just for the fans.

I must admit, I am a little upset that I can no longer read the manga for free even though I had no right in the first place, but sometimes it is the companies fault why these things happen either because they don't bring this stuff fast enough or because the company doesn't really care about the needs of consumers. I can think of a few companies that care more about money than their customers.

There has to be a middle ground to this. Too bad they couldn't offer a code or something in some of the bought manga that allows free access to a paid database to manga that is not published yet. Sort of like how some video games comes with codes for a free month of XBL. They don't have to put it in every packaged manga, but just is random ones like the popular ones like Naruto. Sort of like "Buy the manga and receive a free code to read the latest chapter for free." I'd say, if people are going to pirate anyway, at least give an extra incentive to buy the manga.

After reading through this thread, here's my 2 cents worth. The reason some people prefer free streaming instead of online payment on music, movies, anime,etc is because some of them are probably still wary of online payment as well as probably still underage to have a credit card. It's that simple. Not to mention those that are living outside the U.S can't possibly be able to pay online payment.

I think it has more to do with how expensive manga can be as well as availability. The latest chapter of Naruto we read on Onemanga is not even in any published book. I don't even think Shonen jump has it. Even the Shonen jump here is a bit behind. People might still put up a fit about subscription fees, but some still pay for it.

Some have said "well it takes time to translate and put into the streets." True, but how long does it take? I am not certain myself.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 26 July 2010 - 06:19 AM.

[Dreamer]

It's cool to see you trying to be the "good guy" but you just don't know what you're talking about.

I'm not saying I don't agree with you're views , there just irrelevant.

Yea you're trying to be the good guy saying "Don't whine just because its not free anymore!" when you know where Manga company's stand now , but you will continue to view it free on the internet also.

That's some pretty harsh words dude and disrespectful.

After reading through this thread, here's my 2 cents worth. The reason some people prefer free streaming instead of online payment on music, movies, anime,etc is because some of them are probably still wary of online payment as well as probably still underage to have a credit card. It's that simple. Not to mention those that are living outside the U.S can't possibly be able to pay online payment.

I agree, I pretty much think the same thing on others worried about online purchases on certain sites.

The latest chapter of Naruto we read on Onemanga is not even in any published book. I don't even think Shonen jump has it. Even the Shonen jump here is a bit behind. People might still put up a fit about subscription fees, but some still pay for it.

I thought the spoilers and raws are from the early WSJ subscribers?

Edited by Uzumakikage, 26 July 2010 - 06:25 AM.

[Toasty Warrior]

I don't know, it could have just been some rumors, because I heard about it in other forums.

[Dreamer]

I don't know, it could have just been some rumors, because I heard about it in other forums.

Ohh, okay! Let me know though if you come across it again and provide a link for us.

[James S Cassidy]

I thought the spoilers and raws are from the early WSJ subscribers?

In Japan yes, not in America.

That's the difference.

[iwant2bnaruto]

No this is how somebody in the same situation thinks and knows from experience. You have to understand the market for Manga in America is different from the one in Japan. Very few major company's directly profit from the product they put out. Music artist now make a lot more off of the merchandise they sale and the concerts they sell out compared to the albums they release because there are 3-4 record company's above them , and is the same in the Manga world. TV company's don't make as much money at all off showing a TV series in their channel , 90% of their money is made from the company's that pay them for commercial time , that is why it's over a million dollars for 10 seconds of time during the super bowl. That is also why channels with no commercials are forced to charge a premium , like HBO and Showtime.

In Japan the market is different , it's in high demand so its easily found everywhere. In the United States Manga/Anime is still in a small stage , it is not physically big enough to just rely on manga sales , especially considering most exposure happens online. How many people do you know that never read online and only buy it in stores ? You cannot advertise something online , when its free online and easily found. I tell you what , go to Walmart and buy anything in the store then go stand outside and try to sell it for $5 more. That is what the market for Manga/Anime in the united states is like.

Sure people deserve to be paid for their work , but without exposure no ones going to buy it and that's what they are taking away. That's why any band signed by a major record label has every song off every album on Youtube because major company's are making the money off the marketing of the product , not the product itself.

It's cool to see you trying to be the "good guy" but you just don't know what you're talking about.

Sakura Blossoms' points were quite valid. Manga is being pirated and publicly made available, thus the powers that be finally decided to take steps to curb the issue. Naturally, they were well within their rights to do so. She was also correct in that allowing a website like One Manga continue is not the only way of exposing the material to a demographic such as the American audience. There are other options and strategies that can be utilized.

It's interesting how you site various analogies such as the music industry and that the ratio of revenue artists take in, favors merchandise and concert sales. While that may be true, it does not take away from the fact music artists are losing potential revenue due to the ease at which one can obtain pirated music from the internet. In fact, the revenue ratio also reflects this. CD sales are being directly affected by the internet sharing of pirated music.

I question your contention that "very few major companies directly profit from the product they put out" and the implication that the action against One Manga is futile because of that. Regardless of direct or indirect profit, if one of the reasons why overall sales are being affected are because of issues of internet piracy, then their course of action is quite clear. The situation needs to be contained or at the very least the attempt should be made.

Inversely, if the powers that be are sitting around wondering how to increase market share in demographics outside of Japan, one does not come to the conclusion that the product should be unconditionally distributed free of charge via the internet. I understand your point about the effect websites like One Manga can have in overall exposure to potential readers in areas where the material is not readily available. It cannot be denied. However, to leave it completely unchecked can easily be counterproductive to the publishers. Most, if not all will follow the path of least resistance. Therefore, if one can enjoy manga without cost, why should they look elsewhere? What is the incentive? If your point is taken to the extreme, how can these questions be answered?

You can argue that in the long run, closing One Manga down will have negligible effect on manga piracy. You're probably right. We certainly saw that the law suit against Napster all those years ago did not deter music piracy. It was however, a catalyst for companies to come up with new business models. Napster is now a pay site. Itunes was born. This event with One Manga may just be the first step in many that will lead to curbing piracy and still utilize the internet as a vehicle of exposure, while obtaining a revenue stream. It seems someone has already begun the steps with Open Manga.

You are correct in that viral marketing via mediums such as You Tube are extremely powerful tools. But that's all it is - a tool. The business models surrounding that strategy still hinges on actual sales, regardless of whether it's from the link on You Tube, direct from Itunes, or from an actual brick and mortar based store. Those companies don't make money directly off of marketing. Marketing is an expense. The intended result is an increase in sales based on the marketing campaign. Only advertising companies actually make direct money from the marketing process. It should not be confused with merchandising, which are products developed based on the brand and pushed via a marketing campaign.

On the topic of merchandising, I found it interesting to note that while searching for manga products on Amazon, it appeared the vast majority of the merchandise were based off of anime titles being televised in North America. It would seem that there is, in fact, another method of exposure.

Ultimately, I do share the same sentiment that manga publishers need to consider new strategy to further the exposure into non-domestic markets. However, a plan with the intention to make reading online pirated manga more difficult is a valid one. One that is not completely at odds with increasing market share if they consider past examples.

Does a company do something to protect their assets for the customer or to line their own pocket? I can think of a few who do it to line their own pocket and others who just for the fans.

Unless it's a non-profit organization, companies exist to make money. All things being equal, the choice will always be that which increases revenue, protects it, or recovers it. The great thing about the free enterprise system is that if the company in question does not cater to its customer base, well the competition suddenly becomes an attractive alternative.

The notion that "the customer is always right" is fairly outdated in an age where consumers are more savvy and an increasing number of managers act more like psychologists. You will never find that particular ideal in any mission statement. Instead, there will be something along the lines of: our goal is provide a satisfying and enjoyable experience for our customers. Something I find more fitting since, as dl316bh nicely put, keeping to the literal sense of "the customer is always right" will eventually result in exploitation.

It's unfortunate there will be a portion of readers who buy the printed works that will be affected by this and subsequent events. However, it would just be implausible to undertake such action while identifying who actually purchases and who doesn't. It should not be taken personally.

Edited by iwant2bnaruto, 26 July 2010 - 07:32 AM.

[Insurrection]

I thought I said that first. Well not the advertising part, but the whole new system deal with online manga.

Edited by Insurrection, 26 July 2010 - 07:45 AM.

[iwant2bnaruto]

I thought I said that first. Well not the advertising part, but the whole new system deal with online manga.

Oh, I believe you did.

I was just reiterating that point in my response to a particular topic.

[James S Cassidy]

Unless it's a non-profit organization, companies exist to make money. All things being equal, the choice will always be that which increases revenue, protects it, or recovers it. The great thing about the free enterprise system is that if the company in question does not cater to its customer base, well the competition suddenly becomes an attractive alternative.

The notion that "the customer is always right" is fairly outdated in an age where consumers are more savvy and an increasing number of managers act more like psychologists. You will never find that particular ideal in any mission statement. Instead, there will be something along the lines of: our goal is provide a satisfying and enjoyable experience for our customers.

No, that's not true either. Some companies do exploit a popularity, not for the fan base, but because OF the fan base. They try to make a product as cheap as possible. Activision does it. Fox does it. They sometimes take things and butcher to the point just to make a quick buck.

Some companies however strive on good quality products. This is what they mean by the term "the customer is always right." If the customer doesn't like it, then they should change it to be better or improve. For example, Apple could have easily ignored the pleas of consumers of the new iPhone 4 due to the malfunction, but they chose to listen to the majority consumers and realize they screwed up. What did they do? They allowed all the ones who bought one a free case to try and fix the problem while they make a better model with a better version.

Activision however, does not listen. They sold maps for MW2 for $15 and they were crap by majority standards. What did they do? They did the same thing again. They don't care what the fans say, they just want to make money. Let's look at a better example. Bungie wants to make good products people can love and they want to make their fans happy. So they listen to fan imput and try to satisfy the consumer. Yeah they make a good buck from it, but that a bonus. They don't just say "Okay, how can we make a quick buck off of these suckers."

Look at the people who did the Dragonball Evolution movie. Did they say "You know what. This has a big fanbase. We should make a good quality movie and give the fans something awesome" or do you think they said "Hey, people really like this. Let's create something crap, slap the name on it, and make a quick buck from suckers." Same could be said about all these video game tie-ins to movies.

You mentioned that the "competition suddenly becomes an attractive alternative." Again, not always true, because some products are only made by one company and or distributed like the manga. We also have another factor. Some companies don't make the product, only distribute it. This is what manga, music, and some video games have. Kishimoto makes Naruto, but Shueisha publishes it in Japan. (Viz Media in America.)

Disturbed lead singer said that they don't make money from the albums sold, but the concerts they perform. He didn't really care about pirating because of this fact. This might be the same with Kishimoto, he doesn't get paid per volumes he sales. Just the initial publishing rights and contract. After that, the publishers make all the money. Speculation of course.

Unless their work is copied, I doubt the mangaka really care if they are pirated. Let alone pirated here. Kishimoto probably doesn't even know as he barely knows how popular it is over here.

TL;DR? Well here is the abridged version. Some companies don't really give a crap about us fans. They just want to make money. If they really cared about their "fanbase" then why the hell did they wait so long to crack down on these manga sites? Some have been up for over 5 years. The belief is is that manga was not popular here at first and thus they didn't really care. Once manga became popular and these sites made an impact in their wallets, they started to take notice.

[iwant2bnaruto]

TL;DR? Well here is the abridged version. Some companies don't really give a crap about us fans. They just want to make money. If they really cared about their "fanbase" then why the hell did they wait so long to crack down on these manga sites? Some have been up for over 5 years. The belief is is that manga was not popular here at first and thus they didn't really care. Once manga became popular and these sites made an impact in their wallets, they started to take notice.

It seems like you're implying that the goal of making money and providing quality customer service are mutually exclusive. Taking your example of Apple's response to the malfunctions of the iPhone 4, you say that was their way of showing "the customer is always right". Perhaps but it also fits under the category of protecting revenue. If they were to ignore the complaints about the product, consumer reviews would go down, their reputation would be affected, sales would go down, ultimately resulting in a lower stock price. By making the decision to acknowledge the problem, hand out cases as an interim solution, and work on a permanent fix, it avoided potential revenue loss. It was a good business decision.

Now I'm not saying that they didn't hold the customer feedback in high regard. I'm sure Apple's mission statement is full of paragraphs citing emphasis on the customer and what not. Their successes are a tribute to quality products, high customer service standards, and a human resource that probably believes genuinely in those standards. Although, I must admit that my personal experiences with Apple have not always reflected this.

However, do not think that the decision makers at Apple did not consider alternatives and what each plan's cost effectiveness would be. Regardless if a company produces a crappy product or something that will better human kind as we know it, there is a bottom line to be met - money must be made. There are certainly companies out there that simply make it their policy to cash in, customer be damned. But making money can be inclusive with properly providing for the customer.

You make a good point about how competition does not apply to the situation with manga. At most, our choices are limited to the distributors and retailers of the printed works and well, we all know how that conversation pans out. This tends to be unique to artistic work. There is only one Kishi, or Rowling. I suppose one could look into American comic titles and see if there is a story that has similar plot elements to your preferred manga . When I made the statement, I was responding to something on your post where I thought the topic was companies in general and not specific to manga.

The connection was lost to me until I read your question about why the manga companies waited so long before taking action. There could be a number of reasons, but the notion that the popularity has grown to the point that there can be tangible gains to revenue is one of the most likely. It also seems more likely that this is direct action by the non-domestic publishers outside of Japan. I can certainly understand it and don't begrudge them of their motivations. It's a business afterall and if they really alienate their fan-base with this, well mostly likely they will feel it in the wallet down the road.

Sure there are artists out there that claim they don't care about pirating. If Disturbed's record label contract is such that it gives no incentive to the artist to care about pirating that's great. Or is it? The fact is if albums don't meet sales targets, it can still adversely affect the artist, regardless of how the contract is written. If the album doesn't make any money for the label, what is the point of producing the album. I also find it hard to believe that a band such as Disturbed wouldn't have some sort of royalty clause written into their contract. If they don't, they need a new manager.

Regarding Kishi not knowing about the situation, it wouldn't surprise me. But I think that Mangaka's do care about pirating or at least should. Remember the raws are being pirated first then the scanlators get involved. With a good portion of the Asian market, the basic scanned raws distributed online would satisfy a significant Asian audience. And lets face it, if piracy is rampant anywhere, it's definitely in Asia.

Edited by iwant2bnaruto, 26 July 2010 - 12:53 PM.

[Sakura Blossoms]

I'm not saying I don't agree with you're views , there just irrelevant.

You have to be the most disrespectful, rude, over-opinionated person I've met on this forum in a while. That's my opinion of you, and it is very relevant. Learn to speak to people without insulting them at every turn. It will take you much further in life, than the way you currently are will.