19964 replies to this topic

[TouKen4Life3g]

Right now it's kinda hard to imagine Kushina as Hinata, but let's say she was like Hinata but kept the speech at the end then probably I would be more inclined towards NH. So in a way yes I think Kushina's personality but more importantly her wish for Naruto to live a good life. I like how Naruto tried to tell her how he is on all those departments regarding eating sleeping bathing etc. yet didn't say anything about loving a girl.


But because of so much development on NS and so few on NH it's hard for me to even imagine them together.

Perhaps it's reserved by someone else to say it. Minato is alive now.

[Baguette]

Shino perhaps? Making him literally never to be forgotten. Wow, that's funny yet meaningful.

His death would be forgotten in the very next chapter

I'm kind of hoping Shikamaru ends up sacrificing himself. Nobody would ever see that coming, seeing as how he's not only only part of the next InoShikaCho trio, but has also made a promise to mentor Asuma's child.

[Branden]

Pretty much all evidence for NaruSaku (and just about all other couples) can be broken down into 2 categories :
1. Development
and
2. Hints

The way Sakura's feelings progress throughout the manga and Naruto's display of utter selflessness towards Sakura would be development. Development is the process of a paring progressing from their beginning standpoint to a mutual love and romantic relationship.

The parallels and Kushina's advice would be hints. Hints do not progress the pairing. They are quite literally just hints towards the pairing.

They are both useful in an argument but development is far more meaningful and is required for a pairing to make sense. Hints are pretty much Kishi's way of saying "I like this pairing so get used to it."


Thankfully we have an absolutely insane amount of development in comparison to other pairings and also a hint movie in the form of RTN that contains even more development to top it all off.

[TouKen4Life3g]

His death would be forgotten in the very next chapter

I'm kind of hoping Shikamaru ends up sacrificing himself. Nobody would ever see that coming, seeing as how he's not only only part of the next InoShikaCho trio, but has also made a promise to mentor Asuma's child.

Ouch. Lol.

That could be shocking. Maybe the next one could be TenTen. That way, we can remember that she was there. But seriously, well I think we will see a lot of deaths from unnamed people and many injured named characters. Deaths could be on people who's not K9 but I could be wrong. I think I'm more curious on what's next. Are we resuming from where we left off, or are we going to jump skip and see many losses.

[Baguette]

Pretty much all evidence for NaruSaku (and just about all other couples) can be broken down into 2 categories :
1. Development
and
2. Hints

The way Sakura's feelings progress throughout the manga and Naruto's display of utter selflessness towards Sakura would be development. Development is the process of a paring progressing from their beginning standpoint to a mutual love and romantic relationship.

The parallels and Kushina's advice would be hints. Hints do not progress the pairing. They are quite literally just hints towards the pairing.

They are both useful in an argument but development is far more meaningful and is required for a pairing to make sense. Hints are pretty much Kishi's way of saying "I like this pairing so get used to it."


Thankfully we have an absolutely insane amount of development in comparison to other pairings and also a hint movie in the form of RTN that contains even more development to top it all off.

The problem with using development in debates is that from the other side's perspective, their pairing will of course have been better developed. I mean, let's face it, every time Hinata and Naruto have some sort of development together, it's always been of direct significance (blood oath, conversation before Chuunin finals, Pain confession, Ch.615). With Naruto and Sakura, a lot of our development comes from little moments scattered here and there, which is sort of difficult to work with in a debate.

The sheer amount of parallels involving NS, on the other hand, are almost irrefutable. The other side may remain delusional and try to twist these parallels into their favor (i.e. MinaKushi), which is easily countered, or they may try to disregard the significance of parallels completely, which only goes to just how narrow minded they are in viewing the author's work.

I don't know, I'm just speaking from personal experience here.

Edited by Baguette, 07 April 2013 - 06:44 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

The problem with using development in debates is that from the other side's perspective, their pairing will of course have been better developed. I mean, let's face it, every time Hinata and Naruto have some sort of development together, it's always been of direct significance (blood oath, conversation before Chuunin finals, Pain confession, Ch.615). With Naruto and Sakura, a lot of our development comes from little moments scattered here and there, which is sort of difficult to work with in a debate.

The sheer amount of parallels involving NS, on the other hand, are almost irrefutable. The other side may remain delusional and try to twist these parallels into their favor (i.e. MinaKushi), which is easily countered, or they may try to disregard the significance of parallels completely, which only goes to just how narrow minded they are in viewing the author's work.

I don't know, I'm just speaking from personal experience here.

To be honest, to each of their own because to me, I see NS moments much more significant because what you said about the blood oath is about underdogs as he brought it up during Neji's fight and if you want to make a NH, the problem is that it's concluded in that battle. Second one, why not talk to Hinata. Would you feel cheated for her to get beat up only to never get her idol to speak to him especially she wanted to express her thoughts? I would and glad it happened. Pain confession happened because two things: one is that arc is about every gratitude from the village and how much they all appreciated Naruto, so it's fitting for her to express her gratitude with love. And two, it was made for her to receive a review by her idol, Naruto, which took a while but at leased it happened. Konohamaru got the same treatment. 615, until further notice, is a part of shining moment and closure to her and Naruto. I would say her completely but perhaps the heir part will come and then, closed.

Take it or leave it, up to you. This is what I believe. You got to ask yourself: whenever a NS moment happened, with and without a closure, then what is the point? What is Kishi trying to say? Not to mention, NS always end big and/or saved for last.

[Shadow1275]

To be honest, to each of their own because to me, I see NS moments much more significant because what you said about the blood oath is about underdogs as he brought it up during Neji's fight and if you want to make a NH, the problem is that it's concluded in that battle. Second one, why not talk to Hinata. Would you feel cheated for her to get beat up only to never get her idol to speak to him especially she wanted to express her thoughts? I would and glad it happened. Pain confession happened because two things: one is that arc is about every gratitude from the village and how much they all appreciated Naruto, so it's fitting for her to express her gratitude with love. And two, it was made for her to receive a review by her idol, Naruto, which took a while but at leased it happened. Konohamaru got the same treatment. 615, until further notice, is a part of shining moment and closure to her and Naruto. I would say her completely but perhaps the heir part will come and then, closed.

Take it or leave it, up to you. This is what I believe. You got to ask yourself: whenever a NS moment happened, with and without a closure, then what is the point? What is Kishi trying to say? Not to mention, NS always end big and/or saved for last.

Agreed, but the other things to consider are this. How do both characters act during the moments. There is no doubt that Hinata has romantic feelings for naruto and that she considers her actions romantic, however whenever Hinata and Naruto interact we generally only see Hinata's inner thoughts not Naruto's. This is a technique writers sometimes use to hide intentions. For example, whenever Sakura had a fangirl sasuke moment we only saw her inner thoughts. Meaning that because we never see what Sasuke is thinking, we are forced to speculate as to his feelings. However, because we don't know how Naruto feels, what is considered an act of love by Hinata may be considered an act of friendship by Naruto. However, when Naruto has a moment with Sakura this is not always from one-perspective. For example Sakura blushing while admiring Naruto and the numerous Naruto admiring sakura moments.

The other thing is that when you stack them up together Naruto has had more moments with Sakura than Hinata. Now whether they are small or large can be argued for sure, however one event cannot be considered small until it is denied by Naruto. Naruto's words to Sai are a significant moment because they confirm his feelings.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Agreed, but the other things to consider are this. How do both characters act during the moments. There is no doubt that Hinata has romantic feelings for naruto and that she considers her actions romantic, however whenever Hinata and Naruto interact we generally only see Hinata's inner thoughts not Naruto's. This is a technique writers sometimes use to hide intentions. For example, whenever Sakura had a fangirl sasuke moment we only saw her inner thoughts. Meaning that because we never see what Sasuke is thinking, we are forced to speculate as to his feelings. However, because we don't know how Naruto feels, what is considered an act of love by Hinata may be considered an act of friendship by Naruto. However, when Naruto has a moment with Sakura this is not always from one-perspective. For example Sakura blushing while admiring Naruto and the numerous Naruto admiring sakura moments.

The other thing is that when you stack them up together Naruto has had more moments with Sakura than Hinata. Now whether they are small or large can be argued for sure, however one event cannot be considered small until it is denied by Naruto. Naruto's words to Sai are a significant moment because they confirm his feelings.

I can see we can get along just great.

Yes, I agree. That's why I said if Sakura does these actions and thoughts about Naruto in a romantic sense, it's shocking because Kishi wrote her to be the girl who doesn't like him like that. When it's Hinata, it's not shocking because we know her feelings already. Also, it does remind me on how a girl will go all romantic craze yet the guy loves the other girl, but it's just the action that she received will make her feel lovely. That said it's not love until the other half (other person) shares their pov. I think it was from FMP, but I'm a bit sleepy so I could be wrong.

Anyway, yes, that's why I can't really follow the story with any other pairings since he didn't write it that way.

[Baguette]

To be honest, to each of their own because to me, I see NS moments much more significant because what you said about the blood oath is about underdogs as he brought it up during Neji's fight and if you want to make a NH, the problem is that it's concluded in that battle. Second one, why not talk to Hinata. Would you feel cheated for her to get beat up only to never get her idol to speak to him especially she wanted to express her thoughts? I would and glad it happened. Pain confession happened because two things: one is that arc is about every gratitude from the village and how much they all appreciated Naruto, so it's fitting for her to express her gratitude with love. And two, it was made for her to receive a review by her idol, Naruto, which took a while but at leased it happened. Konohamaru got the same treatment. 615, until further notice, is a part of shining moment and closure to her and Naruto. I would say her completely but perhaps the heir part will come and then, closed.

Take it or leave it, up to you. This is what I believe. You got to ask yourself: whenever a NS moment happened, with and without a closure, then what is the point? What is Kishi trying to say? Not to mention, NS always end big and/or saved for last.

Your interpretation proves my point, though. We as NS fans will see interactions between Naruto and Hinata in a non-romantic context (on Naruto's part, at least) and consider their recent development as closure, whereas NH fans see those scenes as a steady build up of their relationship and their recent development as a possible reciprocation of feelings by Naruto. Along the same vein, we see moments between Naruto and Sakura as a steady and significant buildup of their relationship and will interpret such scenes as the confession positively, whereas NH fans might interpret it as only friendship and consider the confession as the closing of NS development.

We think our interpretations are right, they think their interpretations are right. We think our development is better, they think their development is better. At the end of the day, no one's budging.

And that's when we bring out the parallels to one-up them.

Edited by Baguette, 07 April 2013 - 07:21 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Your interpretation proves my point, though. We as NS fans will see interactions between Naruto and Hinata in a non-romantic context (on Naruto's part, at least) and consider their recent development as closure, whereas NH fans see those scenes as a steady build up of their relationship and their recent development as a possible reciprocation of feelings by Naruto. Along the same vein, we see moments between Naruto and Sakura as a steady and significant buildup of their relationship and will interpret such scenes as the confession positively, whereas NH fans might interpret it as only friendship and consider the confession as the closing of NS development.

We think our interpretations are right, they think their interpretations are right. We think our development is better, they think their development is better. At the end of the day, no one's budging.

And that's when we bring out the parallels to one-up them.

Ah I see. Got you. I just think that this battle will make it finalized for NH/NS. We just have to wait and see. I do wonder what will happen if NH gets friendzoned officially. Should I be afraid? I can't help but think of the movie Children of Men, where in the beginning of the movie, once the news reported that a last birth giver died before giving birth, the bar just exploded because people went uproar. That's how I see NH fans in rage.

Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 07 April 2013 - 07:26 PM.

[Shadow1275]

Your interpretation proves my point, though. We as NS fans will see interactions between Naruto and Hinata in a non-romantic context (on Naruto's part, at least) and consider their recent development as closure, whereas NH fans see those scenes as a steady build up of their relationship and their recent development as a possible reciprocation of feelings by Naruto. Along the same vein, we see moments between Naruto and Sakura as a steady and significant buildup of their relationship and will interpret such scenes as the confession positively, whereas NH fans might interpret it as only friendship and consider the confession as the closing of NS development.

We think our interpretations are right, they think their interpretations are right. We think our development is better, they think their development is better. At the end of the day, no one's budging.

And that's when we bring out the parallels to one-up them.

I agree that we can be biased. However, whenever Naruto and Hinata have a moment all we see is Hinata's inner perspective not Naruto's. Whereas when we have a NS, not all of them are purely from Naruto's perspective. Sure we can be biased and claim that all moments between Naruto and Hinata are just friendship moments or one-sided, but isn't it justified if that is what the evidence points to?

[Baguette]

Ah I see. Got you. I just think that this battle will make it finalized for NH/NS. We just have to wait and see. I do wonder what will happen if NH gets friendzoned officially. Should I be afraid? I can't help but think of the movie Children of Men, where in the beginning of the movie, once the news reported that a last birth giver died before giving birth, the bar just exploded because people went uproar. That's how I see NH fans in rage.

If it happens, I'll be probably lay low on other forums for a while. When NH fans get mad, they tend to throw temper tantrums and go around flaming, bashing, and neg-repping the opposition.

I agree that we can be biased. However, whenever Naruto and Hinata have a moment all we see is Hinata's inner perspective not Naruto's. Whereas when we have a NS, not all of them are purely from Naruto's perspective. Sure we can be biased and claim that all moments between Naruto and Hinata are just friendship moments or one-sided, but isn't it justified if that is what the evidence points to?

Not trying to single you out, but the bolded is a good example of our inherent bias as NS fans. We see the evidence as being in our favor, whereas NH fans, through their own bias, see the evidence (ex. Naruto initiating the hand-holding) as being in their favor. When one pairing or another officially becomes canon, then we can retroactively justify moments like the handholding as being just friendship or one-sided. Right now, however, our interpretation holds no more weight than theirs.

Edited by Baguette, 07 April 2013 - 07:37 PM.

[HauntedCake]

So can someone tell me how a a couple of chapters 614-617, is supposed to overshadows hundreds of chapters of development.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I agree that we can be biased. However, whenever Naruto and Hinata have a moment all we see is Hinata's inner perspective not Naruto's. Whereas when we have a NS, not all of them are purely from Naruto's perspective. Sure we can be biased and claim that all moments between Naruto and Hinata are just friendship moments or one-sided, but isn't it justified if that is what the evidence points to?

Which is why I'm a shipper. That's what a lot of people are threatened by, because she's not to show "respect" for Naruto. Naruto never got all romantic expression when Hinata do something impressive. Again, until I see those panels with Naruto looking like he finally find love and butterflies are going wild inside of him, I'm not buying NH.

[Baguette]

So can someone tell me how a a couple of chapters 614-617, is supposed to overshadows hundreds of chapters of development.

I feel like I'm being a complete d!ck right now and calling everyone out one after another, but this is another example of our bias as NS fans. While NH development may not be as prevalent throughout the series as NS development, a fairly substantial amount of it exists nonetheless. Outside of "a couple of chapters 614-617," we also have the blood oath, the talk before the Chuunin finals, the Pain confession, etc. which can all be considered fair game in the eyes of NH shippers.

[PhenixElite]

I feel like I'm being a complete d!ck right now and calling everyone out one after another, but this is another example of our bias as NS fans. While NH development may not be as prevalent throughout the series as NS development, a fairly substantial amount of it exists nonetheless. Outside of "a couple of chapters 614-617," we also have the blood oath, the talk before the Chuunin finals, the Pain confession, etc. which can all be considered fair game in the eyes of NH shippers.

You can call moments NH development, if naruto is the one who shows feelings not hinata.

[Baguette]

You can call moments NH development, if naruto is the one who shows feelings not hinata.

But that's also part of my point
NH fans interpret Naruto's initiation of the hand-holding as his reciprocation of feelings, while we don't see romantic intent at all. It's a matter of perspective.

[TouKen4Life3g]

But that's also part of my point
NH fans interpret Naruto's initiation of the hand-holding as his reciprocation of feelings, while we don't see romantic intent at all. It's a matter of perspective.

Yeah, but that's like how one guy tells a girl that he considered her as a special friend, only to go to the girl who he loves. I guess the problem is that people will always goes to love option because of two genders and/or one person loves another already. Maybe I would reconsider if Naruto said the last inner thoughts instead.

[PhenixElite]

But that's also part of my point
NH fans interpret Naruto's initiation of the hand-holding as his reciprocation of feelings, while we don't see romantic intent at all. It's a matter of perspective.

And this is the only scene where you can possibly see it as "naruto showing feelings". So if we count it, NH development 1 chapter.
Or if we also count the proud failure speech, we have 2 moments. Wow a lot of development

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Your interpretation proves my point, though. We as NS fans will see interactions between Naruto and Hinata in a non-romantic context (on Naruto's part, at least) and consider their recent development as closure, whereas NH fans see those scenes as a steady build up of their relationship and their recent development as a possible reciprocation of feelings by Naruto. Along the same vein, we see moments between Naruto and Sakura as a steady and significant buildup of their relationship and will interpret such scenes as the confession positively, whereas NH fans might interpret it as only friendship and consider the confession as the closing of NS development.

We think our interpretations are right, they think their interpretations are right. We think our development is better, they think their development is better. At the end of the day, no one's budging.

And that's when we bring out the parallels to one-up them.

Then comes up the classic generalization fallacy.

Not all the NS fans see all the NS moments as development or slowly buildup take per example the hug scene, no development and one-sided from Sakura because Naruto didnt hugged her back.

And this is the only scene where you can possibly see it as "naruto showing feelings". So if we count it, NH development 1 chapter.
Or if we also count the proud failure speech, we have 2 moments. Wow a lot of development

Because it's the first time Naruto made a physical contact with Hinata.
But Naruto touched Sakura countless of times and she even grabbed Naruto's hand so it's mutual.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 07 April 2013 - 08:02 PM.