31746 replies to this topic

[Narufan85]

You guys. I can't. I tried to watch the Sawyer video about the new series and blah blah and he asks if Naruto's a crappy dad. I just can't. I can't muster up even a little energy to care. And, you know what, that kinda bums me out. I dunno. Generally for the last 3 months or so I've been very comfortable posting here and laughing and poking fun at Naruto and the retcon and the garbage. And today? I'm back to being super bummed about just how crappy everything turned out.

[Nar123]

Harsh treatment? They were given police power and given the opportunity to show to the world that they really weren't a bunch of blood thirst tyrants like the other clans thought of them. They had the perfect opportunity to place the good the village above their own ambitions, well also clearing their name.

 

Fact: Only an Uchiha could control the 9  tails the way it was, which is exactly what happened with Obito.

 

Fact: The other villagers feared the Uchiha were trying to start a coup and take power once again, like their ideal Madara Uchiha had a few generations prior.

 

Fact: The Third not wanting to risk blood shed towards the Uchiha or a civil war choose to diplomatically turn the heat down, and give the Uchiha the opportunity to prove the goodness that HE believed was in them. He gave them police power and allowed them to show to the world that they weren't traitors, instead of simply turning the full might of the village against them.

 

Fact: Because of their stupid pride later retconned to ahem love the Uchiha choose to prove the worst fears of the others clans as a fact, and instead of striving for peace took up arms with the intention of dragging the entire village into a civil war and put the Uchiha clan on the top of the hierarchical order again because they believed they deserved to be the most powerful.

 

Fact: One of their own, in fact canon wise the only selfless Uchiha in the story, Itachi, choose the greater good over blind pride and executes his own people so the civil war would never happen and therefor the majority of innocent people would not be caught up in a selfish political power struggle.

 

Fact: Sasuke was spared by Itachi because A. He loved him, and B. He believed that Sasuke would redeem to the world that the Uchiha weren't blood thirsty selfish terrorist who put their wants above others. Which is also why Itachi choose to play the role of a criminal. He wanted to free Sasuke from the taint of his parents generation and show the world that the Uchiha weren't blood thirst monsters... but in the end.....

 

Fact: As soon as Sasuke didn't get his way, he abandoned the village and became a terrorist, and eventually tried to take over the entire world with himself as a iron fisted dictator, who controlled the free will of every man, woman, and child on the planet. Just like Madara Uchiha.

 

Who started the rebellion against the leaf instead of prove themselves to the other clans? The Uchiha. Why? Because they were too good to be simple police men and women, they deserved better. Who choose war instead of peace? The Uchiha. Who betrayed the village? The Uchiha. Who caused their own destruction because they put their own pride above other people, and thought they were better then them? The Uchiha. Nothing would have happened to them had they simply worked to prove themselves to the rest of the village that they had no interest in taking power away from the Hokages... instead of doing that though the decided to start a coup and try to take power away from the hokages.

 

Innocent? Hardly. Guilty as charged. The verdict: Death.

 

 

Most of your points are right, the Uchiha indeed have a part of blame on how everything went down, however ultimately Konoha began everything.

 

They had no proof that the Uchiha were involved on the Kyuubi attack and the manga (plus extra material)  didn't actually confimed anything on their involvement, Konoha just went on the basis that Madara once used the sharingan that controlled the kyuubi and accused the Uchiha of something it was not confirmed they had done, granted the uchiha were less than pleased, they interpreted the hokage giving them the police job as a lame way to cover up the accusation konoha put onto them, a pity gift, for example:  how would you feel if Kishi made another universe where NS is canon as a pity gift to NS fans, wouldn't you be outraged?

 

And of course as the prideful clan they were, revolution talk began to arise in the ranks of the Uchiha, thanks to the himiliated position they were put on

 

Of course I'm not really totally blaming the third hokage, since he tried diplomacy, however Danzo, one of konoha's higher ups, was actually looking foward to a possible massacre so he could profit with it, and in relation to this, the third hokage has indeed a little blame, I mean to let such a man inside your inner circle and to accept his diligences and requests ( like the creation of the root) is stupid and Sarutobi (unlike Tsunade) never went actively against Danzou.

 

So really ultimately the fault belongs to konoha and the uchiha

 

Genocide can never be excused, I'm sure that if the third hokage had balls to go against Danzo machinations he could actively come with another kind of solution together with the clan.

[trang95]

You guys. I can't. I tried to watch the Sawyer video about the new series and blah blah and he asks if Naruto's a crappy dad. I just can't. I can't muster up even a little energy to care. And, you know what, that kinda bums me out. I dunno. Generally for the last 3 months or so I've been very comfortable posting here and laughing and poking fun at Naruto and the retcon and the garbage. And today? I'm back to being super bummed about just how crappy everything turned out.

I saw that video. Wouldn't be surprised if his description of a rebellious Himawari did come true XD XD XD

[Narufan85]

I saw that video. Wouldn't be surprised if his description of a rebellious Himawari did come true XD XD XD

 

I couldn't watch the entire thing. Was there anything worth going back to see?

[Nar123]

No, I have not, nor have I ever in this thread regarding the massacre, justified genocide. As a matter of fact, as hopefully others could attest on my behalf, I have always maintained that what happened regarding the Uchiha was the worst outcome of an extremely sh*tty situation. What Konoha did was deplorable, yes, but the situation was also just as equally the fault of the Uchiha, who determined that their blood was worth more than millions of innocent civilians, and chose to sacrifice the lives of millions to obtain more political power that they were not entitled to, contrary to how they felt.

Konoha was wrong, yes, but you damn sure won't catch me sympathizing with the Uchiha when they were just as bad. And for the record, I don't hate the Uchiha, I happen to like Itachi, Obito, and Shisui. Most of them were scum though, no different from Danzo, and just a shade under Hiruzen.

 

This is my point exactly

 

But there are a few things I want to contest:

 

We actually don't have a bigger picture of the Uchiha clan to judge most of its members, I remember for example that Itachi killed people of the clan that didn't even had the sharingan , so it's kind of harsh to judge it as a whole when it's only clear that Fugaku and the more active members were responsible for the coup

 

EDIT:

 

Looking back  now I think maybe you guys thought that I was excusing the Uchiha of any blame when I said that they were innocent. Well I didn't meant like that

It's only that the initial action that started this whole mess was Konoha accusing the Uchiha of being involved in the Kyuubi attack, when the Uchiha were actually innocent in this matter ( nothing confirms they were part of it, Kishi never bothered to explain) 

Edited by Nar123, 10 April 2015 - 01:27 AM.

[trang95]

 

I couldn't watch the entire thing. Was there anything worth going back to see?

Not really. Both him and Forneverworld's major reason to do Naruto related videos viewercounts After all, Naruto is what earned him and Forneverworld the most counts. Of course loyalty and interest play a role, too.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Not really. Both him and Forneverworld's major reason to do Naruto related videos viewercounts After all, Naruto is what earned him and Forneverworld the most counts. Of course loyalty and interest play a role, too.

Of course. I don't want to do that in order to grab attention.

[trang95]

Of course. I don't want to do that in order to grab attention.

I know he's busy with college and all this real-life stuff, but, imao, Sawyer7mage asked his viewers in one video if they him to read Tokyo Ghoul first or the Naruto volumes... It's bad enough that he considers the novels equally important as TG.

[Atheck]

There are plenty of other people just as idealistic who believed they could achieve a seemingly nonnegotiable aim. 

 

The conundrums over what is deemed impractical decision making date back to before Naruto was even a shinobi. It was due in part to Hiruzen's reluctance to liquidate Orochimaru - a sociopathic madman who had kidnapped people of various age groups and was performing experimentations on them for his own self-centred aims - that resulted in a number of later casualties and injustices against humanity, including the instigation of a full-scale war within Konoha's boundaries that severed the original pact with Suna and resulted in the deaths of many people, including two Kages.

 

The selfishness of Hiruzen sparing Orochimaru out of sentimentality carried a domino effect that helped plant the first seed of doubt in Sasuke's heart. It was by virtue of Orochimaru's sinister ability to manipulate the hearts and minds of others that Sasuke took his first step into true darkness by spurning the society he had grown up in for the possibility of acquiring strength that might have  resulted in Konoha's #1 enemy acquiring the Sharingan.

 

While it may be true that other factions with their own unique agendas helped to mould Sasuke into the deranged homicidal revolutionary that he ultimately became, you can trace his first steps towards becoming a missing nin back to Orochimaru, whom Hiruzen was too weak-willed to follow through in putting down. A man who still poses a very real threat to the world today. 

Edited by Atheck, 10 April 2015 - 01:28 AM.

[WhyDoIWatch]

I know he's busy with college and all this real-life stuff, but, imao, Sawyer7mage asked his viewers in one video if they him to read Tokyo Ghoul first or the Naruto volumes... It's bad enough that he considers the novels equally important as TG.

I really don't blame him considering the massive views his Naruto videos get compared to his other series..

[Tiller]

 

 

Most of your points are right, the Uchiha indeed have a part of blame on how everything went down, however ultimately Konoha began everything.

 

They had no proof that the Uchiha were involved on the Kyuubi attack and the manga (plus extra material)  didn't actually confimed anything on their involvement, Konoha just went on the basis that Madara once used the sharingan that controlled the kyuubi and accused the Uchiha of something it was not confirmed they had done, granted the uchiha were less than pleased, they interpreted the hokage giving them the police job as a lame way to cover up the accusation konoha put onto them, a pity gift, for example:  how would you feel if Kishi made another universe where NS is canon as a pity gift to NS fans, wouldn't you be outraged?

 

And of course as the prideful clan they were, revolution talk began to arise in the ranks of the Uchiha, thanks to the himiliated position they were put on

 

Of course I'm not really totally blaming the third hokage, since he tried diplomacy, however Danzo, one of konoha's higher ups, was actually looking foward to a possible massacre so he could profit with it, and in relation to this, the third hokage has indeed a little blame, I mean to let such a man inside your inner circle and to accept his diligences and requests ( like the creation of the root) is stupid and Sarutobi (unlike Tsunade) never went actively against Danzou.

 

So really ultimately the fault belongs to konoha and the uchiha

 

Genocide can never be excused, I'm sure that if the third hokage had balls to go against Danzo machinations he could actively come with another kind of solution together with the clan.

Danzo would have had nothing had the Uchiha sat down, shut up about their pride, and proved themselves to the other clans. The Uchiha choosing to fight the village and try to take power away from the Third is how they were executed. Had they simply done what was asked of them and proved themselves to the village they wouldn't have died. The Uchiha played right into Danzo's hands because they couldn't let their precious pride go, and put it in front of the lives of their fellow citizens.

 

The Uchiha died because they were one of the four original noble families, and thought they were the strongest and therefor above the other clans. They couldn't "accept" such a lowering of their station, so they choose to gather arms and planned on killing off the rest of their fellow citizens until they were put back on top. They were not innocent people, nor a good clan. A "good" clan would have realized that the lives of innocent people mater more then their social standing, and would have worked to improve themselves threw their actions, instead they condemned themselves because of their actions.

 

Further it was an Uchiha that controlled the 9 tails and caused him to attack the village, it was Obito Uchiha who took Naruto and released the beast forcing the 4th's hand and turning Naruto into an orphan that would be hated by the village, instead of him being basically a crown prince. The villages suspicion wasn't wrong on that count. The fact that the Third knew that it was an Uchiha and instead of choosing the kill of the whole clan right then and there, instead gave them the chance to proves themselves further shows that the Uchiha brought this upon themselves more then the village did anything wrong to them.

[LuckyChi7]

Not really. Both him and Forneverworld's major reason to do Naruto related videos viewercounts After all, Naruto is what earned him and Forneverworld the most counts. Of course loyalty and interest play a role, too.

 

Glad I'm not doing that. If the Naruto related content is that big of a deal then sure I'll do it, but I'm not gonna be like yeah grab the attention. Milk out naruto  videos for the hell of it. That's just not my style at all. 

Edited by LuckyChi7, 10 April 2015 - 01:32 AM.

[Nar123]

There are plenty of other people just as idealistic who believed they could achieve a seemingly nonnegotiable aim. 

 

The conundrums over what is deemed impractical decision making date back to before Naruto was even a shinobi. It was due in part to Hiruzen's reluctance to liquidate Orochimaru - a sociopathic madman who had kidnapped people of various age groups and was performing experimentations on them for his own self-centred aims - that resulted in a number of later casualties and injustices against humanity, including the instigation of a full-scale war within Konoha's boundaries that severed the original pact with Suna and resulted in the deaths of many people, including two Kages.

 

The selfishness of Hiruzen sparing Orochimaru out of sentimentality carried a domino effect that helped plant the first seed of doubt in Sasuke's heart. It was by virtue of Orochimaru's sinister ability to manipulate the hearts and minds of others that Sasuke took his first step into true darkness by spurning the society he had grown up in for the possibility of acquiring strength that might have  resulted in Konoha's #1 enemy acquiring the Sharingan.

 

While it may be true that other factions with their own unique agendas helped to mould Sasuke into the deranged homicidal revolutionary that he ultimately became, you can trace his first steps towards becoming a missing nin back to Orochimaru, whom Hiruzen was too weak-willed to follow through in putting down. A man who still poses a very real threat to the world today. 

 

...you actually made a good point Atheck 

 

but to understand it better why Hiruzen didn't killed Orochimaru and if it made sense or no, we would need to understand why Orochimaru became like that, his backstory was never fully explored tho

 

Did he always had this behavior? If it's such the case then the Third showed a very bad reason of character by taking him as student

If he did not alwasy had this behavior, what made him turn out like that? It was just a drive to be an all powerful / immortal ? How did this drive came to be?

[TouKen4Life3g]

I know he's busy with college and all this real-life stuff, but, imao, Sawyer7mage asked his viewers in one video if they him to read Tokyo Ghoul first or the Naruto volumes... It's bad enough that he considers the novels equally important as TG.

He didn't read them? Huh. I didn't know that.

[AHK]

This is my point exactly
 
But there are a few things I want to contest:
 
We actually don't have a bigger picture of the Uchiha clan to judge most of its members, I remember for example that Itachi killed people of the clan that didn't even had the sharingan , so it's kind of harsh to judge it as a whole when it's only clear that Fugaku and the more active members were responsible for the coup
 
EDIT:
 
Looking back  now I think maybe you guys thought that I was excusing the Uchiha of any blame when I said that they were innocent. Well I didn't meant like that
It's only that the initial action that started this whole mess was Konoha accusing the Uchiha of being involved in the Kyuubi attack, when the Uchiha were actually innocent in this matter ( nothing confirms they were part of it, Kishi never bothered to explain)

The problem is that Konoha had probable cause to suspect the Uchiha in the first place, stemming from two occurrences:

1.) not a single Uchiha participated in the effort to save Konoha from Kurama if I recall correctly, that was pointed out by another member here and
2.) there are only two Kekkei Genkai that could completely subdue the Bijuu: Mokuton and the Sharingan. Mokuton died with the first, and I don't think is necessary to provide an excuse as to why it couldn't have been Tenzo. Which leaves...

[Namikaze Clan]

 
...you actually made a good point Atheck 
 
but to understand it better why Hiruzen didn't killed Orochimaru and if it made sense or no, we would need to understand why Orochimaru became like that, his backstory was never fully explored tho
 
Did he always had this behavior? If it's such the case then the Third showed a very bad reason of character by taking him as student
If he did not alwasy had this behavior, what made him turn out like that? It was just a drive to be an all powerful / immortal ? How did this drive came to be?

Well, if we're lucky , we might get that backstory in the movie or spin off. That's of course if Orochimaru returns as the villain that is

[WhyDoIWatch]

 

...you actually made a good point Atheck 

 

but to understand it better why Hiruzen didn't killed Orochimaru and if it made sense or no, we would need to understand why Orochimaru became like that, his backstory was never fully explored tho

 

Did he always had this behavior? If it's such the case then the Third showed a very bad reason of character by taking him as student

If he did not alwasy had this behavior, what made him turn out like that? It was just a drive to be an all powerful / immortal ? How did this drive came to be?

While not fully explained, it was stated that when his parents died he became obsessed with trying to resurrect them and ultimately became who he is......

Edited by WhyDoIWatch, 10 April 2015 - 01:38 AM.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

You guys. I can't. I tried to watch the Sawyer video about the new series and blah blah and he asks if Naruto's a crappy dad. I just can't. I can't muster up even a little energy to care. And, you know what, that kinda bums me out. I dunno. Generally for the last 3 months or so I've been very comfortable posting here and laughing and poking fun at Naruto and the retcon and the garbage. And today? I'm back to being super bummed about just how crappy everything turned out.

That's bad man.

[Tiller]

There are plenty of other people just as idealistic who believed they could achieve a seemingly nonnegotiable aim. 

 

The conundrums over what is deemed impractical decision making date back to before Naruto was even a shinobi. It was due in part to Hiruzen's reluctance to liquidate Orochimaru - a sociopathic madman who had kidnapped people of various age groups and was performing experimentations on them for his own self-centred aims - that resulted in a number of later casualties and injustices against humanity, including the instigation of a full-scale war within Konoha's boundaries that severed the original pact with Suna and resulted in the deaths of many people, including two Kages.

 

The selfishness of Hiruzen sparing Orochimaru out of sentimentality carried a domino effect that helped plant the first seed of doubt in Sasuke's heart. It was by virtue of Orochimaru's sinister ability to manipulate the hearts and minds of others that Sasuke took his first step into true darkness by spurning the society he had grown up in for the possibility of acquiring strength that might have  resulted in Konoha's #1 enemy acquiring the Sharingan.

 

While it may be true that other factions with their own unique agendas helped to mould Sasuke into the deranged homicidal revolutionary that he ultimately became, you can trace his first steps towards becoming a missing nin back to Orochimaru, whom Hiruzen was too weak-willed to follow through in putting down. A man who still poses a very real threat to the world today. 

True, and Jiraya failed as well on the account. Another reason that I thought the foreshadowing of "Naruto surpassing his elders" hinted at him having to face the facts of this world, and instead of selfishly putting his desires to save Sasuke front and center instead would realize that in order to be a true leader one must stick up for the rights and liberties of your people, the same way Naruto's very own father did.

 

And I'll give the Third this much credit at least in the very end he understood how big of a mistake he made with Oro and at least tried to kill him by taking his soul from this dimension and therefor ending his existence from the mortal wolrd. He just wasn't strong enough and instead was only able to take his arms. Had he been strong enough Oro would have died.

 

Still I think Sasuke would have ended up leaving the village anyways and likely would have just become a student of Kabuto instead. Sasuke didn't care who taught him how to become more powerful then Itachi, he just didn't believe anyone in the village could or would teach him how to be that strong. Plus we must also be reminded that canon wise he was also "jealous" of Naruto by this point which also pushed him out of the village so he could find someone stronger to teach him.

[Narufan85]

I really don't blame him considering the massive views his Naruto videos get compared to his other series..

I can't say much about his other videos, but I never found his (or forneverworld's) Naruto reviews particularly insightful.