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#15501 Dalton.T.R

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:15 AM

Don't get the wrong idea

 

I have wanted to talk about this for a while now, its regarding Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. Why is it that she keeps chasing a guy who wouldn't even hesitate to slit her throat in mere seconds without regret? Someone will probably bring up the argument she tried to kill him, well she was having a flash back of the old him, behind him. I really like Sakura but how could she be chasing a dude like this knowing he will kill her one day, the more she chases him? You would figure she completely gives up on him when he tried to kill her. I don't call this love at all.

It's because Kishi's a terrible writer. I mean...really? Sakura's supposed to be one of the smarter characters in the damn manga, but the way Kishi writes her...she seems pretty dumb sometimes...

 

If this were real life...would Sasuke REALLY be worth the sheer amount of BS he's put those two through? Would he really be allowed back into the village just because Naruto wants everyone to just 'forgive' Sasuke for his crimes? No! The amount of stupidity going into that idea is just...I'd rip my hair out if it happened. That would be the BIGGEST bull kitten move I've ever seen in fiction writing. 


Edited by Night Hawk, 12 March 2014 - 02:19 AM.


#15502 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:18 AM

People tend to have one flaw or so. You can have a great guy, but horrible taste on women, or rather horrible approach to them.

#15503 luffyq1

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:22 AM

It's because Kishi's a terrible writer. I mean...really? Sakura's supposed to be one of the smarter characters in the damn manga, but the way Kishi writes her...she seems pretty dumb sometimes...
 
If this were real life...would Sasuke REALLY be worth the sheer amount of BS he's put those two through? Would he really be allowed back into the village just because Naruto wants everyone to just 'forgive' Sasuke for his crimes? No! The amount of stupidity going into that idea is just...I'd rip my hair out if it happened. That would be the BIGGEST bull kitten move I've ever seen in fiction writing.

 This.
 
 

Don't get the wrong idea
 
I have wanted to talk about this for a while now, its regarding Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. Why is it that she keeps chasing a guy who wouldn't even hesitate to slit her throat in mere seconds without regret? Someone will probably bring up the argument she tried to kill him, well she was having a flash back of the old him, behind him. I really like Sakura but how could she be chasing a dude like this knowing he will kill her one day, the more she chases him? You would figure she completely gives up on him when he tried to kill her. I don't call this love at all.

It is love, it's Kishi's poorly written portrayal of love. One thing I will say though, is that she came pretty close to giving up on Sasuke during the summit arc. Attempting to kill him was her way of "saving" him, while on the other hand it's just a cop-out because she can't bare to see Sasuke sink further into the darkness. 
 
It's all crap in my opinion.


Edited by luffyq1, 12 March 2014 - 02:23 AM.

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#15504 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:23 AM

Well it could have been worse. The last thing I need is to have Sasuke dies BEFORE Sakura concludes anything with him. It's a formula that will forever have fandoms tearing each other apart. Seriously, it's the worst cop-out.

#15505 Dalton.T.R

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:23 AM

It is love, it's Kishi's poorly written portrayal of love. One thing I will say though, is that she came pretty close to giving up on Sasuke during the summit arc. Attempting to kill him was her way of "saving" him, while on the other hand it's just a cop-out because she can't bare to see Sasuke sink further into the darkness. 

 

It's all crap in my opinion.

Kishi wasn't kidding when he said he sucks at romance writing lol



#15506 Gojira

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:25 AM

Not gonna lie everything in the kage summit arc was confusing bullcrap

 

I think the point was to show that despite all this SS is still an obstacle for NS, so that it wouldn't be as obvious to the viewers.

 

Even though NS will (most likely) be canon at this point I'm gonna have a hard time believing she loves Naruto as much if not more than Sauce because of the whole deal with her loving him so much she couldn't even put him down like a dog.


Edited by Pepsi, 12 March 2014 - 02:29 AM.

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#15507 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:48 AM

I feel like I have to recap everything once this is all done. I should see in other side of view. It feels like something I didn't notice or rather not getting it right. Not on NS, that's perfectly fine. It's just something else I guess.

Anyway, well it would be for a while to talk about pairing, so let's start thinking something else. I mean I know negative is a challenge, but man, talk about 24/7 session.

#15508 Dalton.T.R

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:54 AM

Hmm...this page is really running dry. There's not much, if anything, left to talk about. So...until the next NS moment happens...I'm signing off.

 

See ya.



#15509 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:59 AM

Hmm...this page is really running dry. There's not much, if anything, left to talk about. So...until the next NS moment happens...I'm signing off.
 
See ya.

No wonder we chose negative talk. Lol. Well, take care.

#15510 Them Feels

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 03:00 AM

Just a quick reminder guys: manga writers don't want their audience to have to over-think everything. It would be a little strange to write something that is meant to wear out people's minds with what-ifs.



#15511 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 03:01 AM

Just a quick reminder guys: manga writers don't want their audience to have to over-think everything. It would be a little strange to write something that is meant to wear out people's minds with what-ifs.

Indeed.

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#15512 KnS

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 04:50 AM

It's because Kishi's a terrible writer. I mean...really? Sakura's supposed to be one of the smarter characters in the damn manga, but the way Kishi writes her...she seems pretty dumb sometimes...

 

If this were real life...would Sasuke REALLY be worth the sheer amount of BS he's put those two through? Would he really be allowed back into the village just because Naruto wants everyone to just 'forgive' Sasuke for his crimes? No! The amount of stupidity going into that idea is just...I'd rip my hair out if it happened. That would be the BIGGEST bull sh*t move I've ever seen in fiction writing. 

 

Have you by chance read Wuthering Heights, Jane Eyre, or The Count of Monte Cristo?  All three of them, in their own way, contain story elements that you would probably consider a "sheer amount of BS" for the characters to be put through -- by another character or each other.  
 
For example, take Wuthering Heights.  Here's a portion of the synopsis from Wikipedia:

Catherine confesses to Nelly that Edgar proposed, that she accepted, and that this is despite the fact that she does not love Edgar—she loves Heathcliff, but cannot marry him because of his low social status and lack of education. She hopes to use her position as Edgar's wife to raise Heathcliff's standing. Heathcliff overhears this, and in despair he runs away and disappears without a trace. Distraught by Heathcliff's departure, Catherine makes herself ill out of spite. Nelly and Edgar thus begin to pander to her every whim to prevent her from becoming ill again. Three years pass, Edgar and Catherine marry, and live together at Thrushcross Grange.
 
Six months later, Heathcliff returns, now a wealthy gentleman. Catherine is delighted; Edgar is not. Edgar's sister, Isabella, soon falls in love with Heathcliff, who despises her but encourages the infatuation as a means of revenge. One day, he embraces Isabella, leading to an argument with Edgar. Upset, Catherine locks herself in her room, and begins to make herself ill again through spite and jealousy.
 

 

 

Likewise, in Jane Eyre, Edward Rochester is often viewed as sadistic and manipulative, torturing Jane with his relationship with Blanche Ingraham in order to make Jane jealous instead of admitting his true feelings -- all the while he is hiding an insane wife in the shuttered turret.
 
And The Count of Monte Cristo goes beyond a "sheer amount of BS" and is instead a vortex of emotional torture and vengeful dipshittery that the characters endure or impose on each other.
 
Considering that all three of these novels are considered classics of English literature and often make the top 100 novels of all time, I don't think Kishimoto is all that far off the mark, and his portrayal of romance and loyalty certainly doesn't make him a "terrible writer."  
 
A reader has to remember not to judge the material by their own modern morality or personal standards.  The world is full of people who would do things -- for good and bad -- that you would never do, but that doesn't make it stupid or unrealistic.  Just different.
 
Besides, the "sheer amount of BS" concept is not unique to Naruto and Sakura and their relationship with Sasuke.  Jiraiya spent a lifetime following Orochimaru because he never gave up on him; the Third struggled to kill him as well, regardless of what he did.  Kakashi has lived with survivor's guilt, torment, and self-loathing his entire life because of his bond with Obito and Rin.  Etc., etc.
 
Within the framework of the Naruto universe morality -- the ninja code -- taking friendship and team bonds very seriously, never giving up on your comrades, and doing everything in your power to help them stay on the right path is part of their lives.  
 
It's not something that we as readers can judge by our personal ethics or experiences.  If that were the case, I would totally agree.  It's frustrating.  I would have kicked Sasuke's butt to the curb a long time ago and never looked back.  But I'm not a ninja.

 

It is love, it's Kishi's poorly written portrayal of love. One thing I will say though, is that she came pretty close to giving up on Sasuke during the summit arc. Attempting to kill him was her way of "saving" him, while on the other hand it's just a cop-out because she can't bare to see Sasuke sink further into the darkness. 

 

I think it's worth remembering that Sakura never said any of that, it was purely speculation by Sai.  We never saw Sakura form those words or thoughts.  Sai isn't always correct when he interprets Sakura's behavior.

 

Even though NS will (most likely) be canon at this point I'm gonna have a hard time believing she loves Naruto as much if not more than Sauce because of the whole deal with her loving him so much she couldn't even put him down like a dog.

 

Naruto can't bring himself to put Sasuke down either.  I guess that means he's in love with Sasuke too, right?   :twitch:

 

Just a quick reminder guys: manga writers don't want their audience to have to over-think everything. It would be a little strange to write something that is meant to wear out people's minds with what-ifs.

 

Very true.



#15513 luffyq1

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 05:38 AM

I think it's worth remembering that Sakura never said any of that, it was purely speculation by Sai.  We never saw Sakura form those words or thoughts.  Sai isn't always correct when he interprets Sakura's behavior.

Sai said that Sasuke and Sakura causes Naruto pain. We never saw Naruto form those words or thoughts. I'm taking what Sai said as factual because throughout the series it seems Kishi uses him to project Naruto and Sakura's thoughts and feelings. 


Edited by luffyq1, 12 March 2014 - 05:39 AM.

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#15514 Raito

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 06:04 AM

Is a fight to death between Naruto and Sasuke bound to happen? :umm:


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#15515 TacticalFox88

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 06:16 AM

It's because Kishi's a terrible writer. I mean...really? Sakura's supposed to be one of the smarter characters in the damn manga, but the way Kishi writes her...she seems pretty dumb sometimes...

 

If this were real life...would Sasuke REALLY be worth the sheer amount of BS he's put those two through? Would he really be allowed back into the village just because Naruto wants everyone to just 'forgive' Sasuke for his crimes? No! The amount of stupidity going into that idea is just...I'd rip my hair out if it happened. That would be the BIGGEST bull kitten move I've ever seen in fiction writing. 

The fact that Kishi still tries to pretend Sasuke had a bond (one that actually had meaning anyhow) with Naruto is pretty hilarious.



#15516 Superman333

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:06 AM

what Naruto does I do the same call me crazy but I would never give up on the girl I love , I ll be loyal to her and dedicated to my love for her no matter how much times she hurts me intentional or unintentional . Same for my family . Naruto has a pure heart, that's why he doesn't give up .
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#15517 KnS

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:15 AM

Sai said that Sasuke and Sakura causes Naruto pain. We never saw Naruto form those words or thoughts. I'm taking what Sai said as factual because throughout the series it seems Kishi uses him to project Naruto and Sakura's thoughts and feelings. 

 

I get what you're saying.  Since his first appearance in the story, Sai has obviously been used as an exposition character by Kishimoto.  However, a point has been made to show that Sai is not always right.
 
While I have more or less defaulted to the same opinion you have -- to take Sai's explanations at face value until there's more or different evidence -- I have a hard time settling my mind on his interpretation of Sakura's feelings so I consider that it might be one of the times he is wrong.
 
And I have to disagree that we never saw Naruto form the words or thoughts that Sasuke -- and Sakura's feelings for him -- caused him pain.  We have seen many proofs that it is true, as far back as the Team 7 fight with Zabuza and Haku, when we saw little Naruto clutch at his chest when he heard Sakura crying over Sasuke.  We saw Naruto's anguish over Sakura's plea to go after Sasuke, and Sasuke's choice to defect during their fight at the Valley of the End.
 
We saw it when Yamato was watching him rest in the inn; Naruto was anguished about how Sasuke felt so far away, and Naruto didn't understand him anymore.  We saw it when Naruto fell on his knees in front of the Raikage and begged for Sasuke to be spared.  We saw it when Naruto took the beating from Karui because he wouldn't give Sasuke up to them, and didn't want Sakura to know.  We saw it when Sai asked Naruto if he had told Sakura how he felt, and he said he couldn't because he hadn't kept his promise.
 
Naruto didn't have to say it in words to Sai (and therefore the audience), or have a self-aware inner monologue about it to convey his feelings.  We had been clearly and systematically shown throughout the course of the story.  Therefore, when Sai said it, we knew it was true because we had seen it for ourselves.
 
But the problem with Sai's explanation that Sakura loved Sasuke so much she wanted to spare him from sinking any lower is that it's so specific.  So specific and never shown or even touched upon.  Even when Shikamaru came to Sakura and said that everyone had decided together that Sasuke must be killed to avoid a war, there was no conversation about saving Sasuke from himself, and no thought in her head about it.  In fact she cut him off before he said anything more.
 
The emphasis of that scene was all about her realization that Naruto was in love with her, and her acceptance that her reliance upon him to return Sasuke was unfair and painful for him.  She realized that her priorities were way off, and that Naruto was putting himself in danger to save Sasuke.  
 
There was absolutely nothing in any of that to enlighten the audience that Sakura was thinking of killing Sasuke for Sasuke's sake.  It was all about Naruto's sake.  
 
That's why Sai's clone staying behind and coming up with that very specific but sudden explanation of Sakura's feelings and motives regarding Sasuke seemed off to me.  Nevertheless, I concede you could be right, and it might be an example of Kishimoto cutting corners with his characterization.

Edited by KnS, 12 March 2014 - 07:19 AM.


#15518 luffyq1

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:36 AM

I get what you're saying.  Since his first appearance in the story, Sai has obviously been used as an exposition character by Kishimoto.  However, a point has been made to show that Sai is not always right.
 
While I have more or less defaulted to the same opinion you have -- to take Sai's explanations at face value until there's more or different evidence -- I have a hard time settling my mind on his interpretation of Sakura's feelings so I consider that it might be one of the times he is wrong.


You think Sai is wrong in his interpretation about Sakura, but the manga has not suggested so. For example, it's like we say that Hinata clearly displays obsessive tendencies, but yet the manga does not see it that way. Basically, it's your interpretation VS. Sai's. I'm sorry, but I'd rather take something that has been explicitly stated in the manga over outside opinions.
 

And I have to disagree that we never saw Naruto form the words or thoughts that Sasuke -- and Sakura's feelings for him -- caused him pain.  We have seen many proofs that it is true, as far back as the Team 7 fight with Zabuza and Haku, when we saw little Naruto clutch at his chest when he heard Sakura crying over Sasuke.  We saw Naruto's anguish over Sakura's plea to go after Sasuke, and Sasuke's choice to defect during their fight at the Valley of the End.
 
We saw it when Yamato was watching him rest in the inn; Naruto was anguished about how Sasuke felt so far away, and Naruto didn't understand him anymore.  We saw it when Naruto fell on his knees in front of the Raikage and begged for Sasuke to be spared.  We saw it when Naruto took the beating from Karui because he wouldn't give Sasuke up to them, and didn't want Sakura to know.  We saw it when Sai asked Naruto if he had told Sakura how he felt, and he said he couldn't because he hadn't kept his promise.
 
Naruto didn't have to say it in words to Sai (and therefore the audience), or have a self-aware inner monologue about it to convey his feelings.  We had been clearly and systematically shown throughout the course of the story.  Therefore, when Sai said it, we knew it was true because we had seen it for ourselves.
 
But the problem with Sai's explanation that Sakura loved Sasuke so much she wanted to spare him from sinking any lower is that it's so specific.  So specific and never shown or even touched upon.  Even when Shikamaru came to Sakura and said that everyone had decided together that Sasuke must be killed to avoid a war, there was no conversation about saving Sasuke from himself, and no thought in her head about it.  In fact she cut him off before he said anything more.
 
The emphasis of that scene was all about her realization that Naruto was in love with her, and her acceptance that her reliance upon him to return Sasuke was unfair and painful for him.  She realized that her priorities were way off, and that Naruto was putting himself in danger to save Sasuke.  
 
There was absolutely nothing in any of that to enlighten the audience that Sakura was thinking of killing Sasuke for Sasuke's sake.  It was all about Naruto's sake.  
 
That's why Sai's clone staying behind and coming up with that very specific but sudden explanation of Sakura's feelings and motives regarding Sasuke seemed off to me.  Nevertheless, I concede you could be right, and it might be an example of Kishimoto cutting corners with his characterization.

LOL damn, man! You bombard me with a wall of text. Anyway, I think I got the gist of where you were going with the second example you stated about Naruto forming the words or thoughts that they've caused him pain. We may not have gotten panels of Sai's observational skills being used on SS, but that really doesn't matter. Like you've said, Kishi does cut corners. Like powerups for example. Like Kabuto knowing it was Obito without us really seeing his deduction lead up to that. I could go on but you get the point.

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#15519 redragon88

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:14 AM

@KnS

 

I've said in a previous post that for me what Sai explains about Sakura "saving Sasuke from darkness" is along the lines of Sakura's justification for being capable of killing someone she loves.

 

The reason Sakura goes to kill Sasuke is Naruto's safety, but it's still emotionally difficult to commit such an act against someone you have feelings for (which is what Naruto was arguing for). That's where Sai's explanation comes in.



#15520 Inferno180

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 10:22 AM

Really ns is fine, it's just as of now we are waiting to see if something happens with narutos recovery if we get a ns related scene to the recovery.

As of the recent chapter, some nh and SS fans are chanting we won't see it while it's easy for us to say how's the taste of dirt or sakura doesn't trust Sasuke.

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