9679 replies to this topic

[Gravenimage]

hey guys, can someone please explain why people assume sakura sees naruto as a brother? And if you can, could you please disprove the theory of sakura seeing naruto as a brother?

It has proven wrong dozens of times in this thread before because this is the most obvious and oldest excuse for the NH and SS fandom to use against the pairing. I don't blush at my sister meeting her for the first time in two and a half years, I don't ask my sister on dates, I God forbid don't try to peek at her when she's in a hot bath or showering (if I have a deathwish ), I don't hug my sister like Sakura did to Naruto at 450 (in my case with my sister if I have a deathwish again and also they are the ones that come up with the excuse that the hug was a "sibling hug" when not even themselves believe that baloney because the day the chapter came out they made a fan art of the hug but of course changing Sakura with Hinata, it's romantic if it's Hianta but it's platonic if it's Sakura ).

Edited by Gravenimage, 26 September 2010 - 06:38 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

hey guys, can someone please explain why people assume sakura sees naruto as a brother? And if you can, could you please disprove the theory of sakura seeing naruto as a brother?

This is mostly based on the idea that Naruto and Sakura have a platonic bond. Since they care deeply for each other, but supposedly not in a romantic way, it causes their bond to be labeled as brother/sister.

It can't be a platonic bond, however, if Naruto is in love with Sakura. As long as one side of the pairing still loves the other romantically, it isn't platonic. The best they could possibly argue is that it could become platonic if Naruto moved on due to Sakura ending up with someone else. Otherwise, it doesn't have any backing.

[ciardha]

I'm pretty sure the majority of Naruto fans today who are in love with Hinata have never even seen Grease. Unless you have better examples, I don't see how this is the case...

You'd be surprised how well known it is amongst even teens and twenty-somethings, it's still often done as the senior school play in public high schools all around the US (the movie came out in 1978, by way around the time my parent's generation were my age- thus old enough to look back and see the silliness of the cultural indoctrination they received growing up about how boys and girls were supposed to act when dating ) However, I'm betting you are right in the sense that socioculturally wise a lot of it is nearly as distant as say "My Fair Lady".

I was saying this storyline about that kind of "modern" young love goes back at least to the teen films and and TV shows of the 1950's, not saying it ended there. The types evolved a bit over time, but even in the teen horror films of the 1980's and 1990's there's subtle reinforcement that in relationships a girl should be sweet, innocent and patient, the more outspoken girls who act on their romantic attractions get killed off- very violently. So yeah there's this subconscious sociocultural "tape" in most people's heads somewhere. Some people reject it outright, some partially reject it, some embrace it.

Joss Whedon made Buffy the Vampire Slayer in a direct act to counter that message, although even Buffy at times reinforces that message- especially the TV show in the first three seasons. Buffy fangirls over Angel and has a subordinate relationship with him. Angel calls all the shots, he's the one that even decides when and where they have sex. Angel is the one that breaks up the relationship, Buffy is at Angel's beck and call even after Angel ends their relationship.

It's only when Buffy and Spike get drawn to each other that Buffy "grows up". Yet there were tons of fans that ardently shipped BuffyxAngel and violently hated BuffyxSpike. They didn't like Buffy being strong willed, they wanted Buffy to be in relationship where she worshiped and was subordinate to a guy. (She might have been good at fighting monsters, but relationship wise with Angel it was no different than those teen movies and TV shows as far back as the 1950's. and this was on an American TV show in the late 1990's)

[crazyefra]

You know what's ironic, that they say it's a "sibling" hug but then they come and change Sakura with Hinata. If the hug was between brother and sister why do that change in the first place. That's called hypocrisy and a double standard.

[Gravenimage]

Exactly Efra I edited my last post mentioning that.

Edited by Gravenimage, 26 September 2010 - 06:40 PM.

[crazyefra]

Either way I just don't care about the silly little things they say and do.

Edited by crazyefra, 26 September 2010 - 06:45 PM.

[maliousdei]

to be perfectly honest, it makes me angry when I think about NH and SS fans hypocrisy. if half the things that happened in Narusaku happened with SS or NH, they'd be off planning the wedding by now. Also, when you think about it, the only way that either of those pairings could win is by the failure of narusaku. which at this point, is kind of unlikely.

[Miss Soupy]

I was saying this storyline about that kind of "modern" young love goes back at least to the teen films and and TV shows of the 1950's, not saying it ended there. The types evolved a bit over time, but even in the teen horror films of the 1980's and 1990's there's subtle reinforcement that in relationships a girl should be sweet, innocent and patient, the more outspoken girls who act on their romantic attractions get killed off- very violently. So yeah there's this subconscious sociocultural "tape" in most people's heads somewhere. Some people reject it outright, some partially reject it, some embrace it.

Since I never watched horror films growing up, I can't really say if this is the case or not. But I am still not seeing how overall the generation that is into Naruto right now has been brought up with liking a Hinata type of girl. Even in the classic super hero cartoons the female characters of interest weren't Hinata like. I don't think, overall, there is such a large trend towards a Hinata character specifically in western culture. I think it is just the way Kishimoto introduced Sakura as someone who totally disliked Naruto to begin with verses a girl who loved him from the beginning. Sakura is a character you have to warm up to and watch as she grows. If you don't have the patience for her, then you won't see her true self underneath her prickly exterior. I think most people didn't give her a chance.

I never watched Buffy, but from what I know she was a fighter. This Angel/Buffy pairing seems more closely resembling SS than NH. Sakura did act more submissive towards Sasuke, but not completely and recently she seems to have completely grown out of that when she defended Naruto to him.

[Gravenimage]

to be perfectly honest, it makes me angry when I think about NH and SS fans hypocrisy. if half the things that happened in Narusaku happened with SS or NH, they'd be off planning the wedding by now. Also, when you think about it, the only way that either of those pairings could win is by the failure of narusaku. which at this point, is kind of unlikely.

And yet they cheered highly in victory at 469 because they thought it was the end of NS at least to them and they cheered at 474 claiming SS and NH was going to be cannon. Now look at things after those chapters Naruto doesn't seem to be angry at Sakura at all (I think he has become more over protective of her when he rescued her from Sasuke at 484). Sakura smiled widely at him which he was the first person she told about Tsunade finally waking up and before that when they faced the rookies she defended Naruto that Madara was there giving a reason why he couldn't finish Sasuke off but we all know that was a lie because Madara appeared in the last moment just before they were about to leave. Also Naruto defended Sakura when Kiba got angry at her for putting them all to sleep.

If you ask me the confession and the 2nd team seven reunion with Sasuke was another breakthrough in the development of NS making them grow closer to each other even more. I'm pretty sure Kishi is planning something when Naruto and Sakura meet again since the last time they were together was back at 490.

Edited by Gravenimage, 26 September 2010 - 07:18 PM.

[maliousdei]

thanks for earlier guys, I know completely that NS isn't a bro/sis relationship. even sakura has proven it with some of the things she has done.

1. valuing naruto's opinion of her look
2. offering to feed him ramen
3. actual willingness to go out with him (even if it was with the paying condition, it still counts)
4. willing to be gentle with his feelings.
5. views naruto as a hero
6. has a fond smile used only for him. (even while he sleeps)
7. and of course, the legendary hug.

[ShippudenGirl]

I don't think brothers ask sisters on dates and try to kiss them in disguise

[catsi563]

its more in the underdog factor for Hinata that is perceived in western culture. The perception comes with the notion that Hinata will miraculously change to resemble the heroine they want her to be hence fulfilling the wish of all underdogs to suddenly sprout wings like a butterfly and be beautiful

its the ugly duckling/beautiful swan notion which is common even today in story telling where the ner/geek/ugly girl etc. Gets her dream guy by changing herself from a loser to a heroine then reembracing her loser roots to make sure she doesnt get lost.

Part of it was that Sakura was intiially introduced as a somewhat unlikeable character who we find very quickly to have a sensitive side but its one that takes a while to manifest consistently especially when it comes to Naruto. Furthermore as you stated Hinata has the ""she aways supported and watched him"" factor.

Lastly is the notion of her suicidal confession where she does the tragic romeo and juliet thing by heroically sacraficing herself for her beloved. While Sakura at the time is not seen.

What gets lost in translation is that Sakura is doing exactly what she should have been at the time, while Hinata was very foolish in her notion but she at least admitted the selfishness inherant in the gesture.

It still suprises me how many people dismiss that aspect of it. That Hinatas self admitted selfishness was actually selflessness, while claiming that Sakuras Selfess act of duty was selfish and shows she didnt care about naruto.

[ciardha]

I never watched Buffy, but from what I know she was a fighter. This Angel/Buffy pairing seems more closely resembling SS than NH. Sakura did act more submissive towards Sasuke, but not completely and recently she seems to have completely grown out of that when she defended Naruto to him.

Although the naruhina type relationship has been the dominant topic the sasusaku type relationship was part of the topic too, and they really are the same kind of relationship, just at a different point of the spectrum, it's about a girl who worships a boy and plays a subordinate role. Catsi points toward where the naruhina type relationship plays a strong role in our culture- I'll also point out the more traditional passive sweet princess type films that Disney did- like Snow White that gets released again every few years and has had a major impact on generations of young children's view of romance, that view forms part of the foundation of how kid (girls especially) view romance.

(me, I preferred Rapunzel back in those young years- Rapunzel wasn't born or raised a princess and within her restricted life she made conscious choices to go against that restriction, and in the end she is the one that rescues her prince. I'm kind annoyed that Disney who is finally adapting Rapunzel has warped things- she's a princess and passively sitting in the tower and is rescued by some guy and only then does her adventure start. And they aren't even calling it Rapunzel, but "Tangled".)

Edited by ciardha, 26 September 2010 - 11:44 PM.

[maliousdei]

finally, someone else who sees hinata's true nature. some people seem to forget that even selfless people are selfish, because it's what they want to do.

FYI, if anyone still cares, when i asked about the brother sister thing, I was referring to sakura's view of naruto, not the other way around.

[ciardha]

FYI, if anyone still cares, when i asked about the brother sister thing, I was referring to sakura's view of naruto, not the other way around.

Well it's basically the same thing, sisters don't blush at their brother's heroics- as far back as chapter 5, sisters don't have romantic feelings for their brothers, sisters don't invite their brothers in a very flirtatious way to notice "how womanly" their body has become, sisters don't look at their brothers with bedroom eyes and move up so close that their breasts would rub against their brothers body when they offer to feed them, sisters don't romantically embrace their brothers- much less in front of their whole town's population, sisters don't blush and make a romantic confession to their brothers.

That brother sister argument is utterly ridiculous and all it does is make me wonder just what kind of relationship does that person have with their siblings? They do know sibling incest isn't normal don't they?

[catsi563]

The SasuSaku style relationship to me represents the worst of the fictional style tropes. Because a part fot he relationship stems from the twisting and mangling of the patient love trope which NaruSaku trully represents. That slow steady build up where the one person sees how well and trully the other has grown and they mutually share in each others experiences.

SasuSaku takes thta notion and twists it into a dark mirro version. Where only one side ((usualy the female)) is stuck being patient and waiting for the dark serious ((usualy male)) one. The notion then becomes and is fed to us that if we stay with the person eventually our patienet and loyal love will change that person ironically making them into the opposite notion ((ie Sasuke will become loving and warm like Naruto))

The notion that the ""bad boy"" will change and become the Heart of gold hero is rooted again in that underdog notion where were fed the tale of how the underdog heroine will be able to change the love of her life with ehr patience and pure heart.

But the irony rears its ugly head in that the change they want to make in the person usually changes them away from the person in which they fell for in the first place. hence fixing a fictional notion of getting ones ramen and eating it too.

[Miss Soupy]

its more in the underdog factor for Hinata that is perceived in western culture. The perception comes with the notion that Hinata will miraculously change to resemble the heroine they want her to be hence fulfilling the wish of all underdogs to suddenly sprout wings like a butterfly and be beautiful

I don't see anything inherently wrong with rooting for the underdog. It is the reason why Naruto is so popular as a manga, and the character itself. And even more, everybody, no matter what culture, would be attracted to rooting for the underdog. That said, it has always been argued that it is her personality, rather than her situation, that people are attracted to. Being the underdog is not part of her personality, per se. Being the quiet shy girl, however, is. That is what I'm trying to understand about this culture effect.

its the ugly duckling/beautiful swan notion which is common even today in story telling where the ner/geek/ugly girl etc. Gets her dream guy by changing herself from a loser to a heroine then reembracing her loser roots to make sure she doesnt get lost.

This makes a little more sense, but I still have a hard time seeing how Hinata portrays this so much better than Sakura. Since Sakura also has a background of being unpopular, it is hard to see here where Hinata became more likable in comparison. And once again, rooting for this type of character is not something wrong and probably common everywhere. On top of that, Naruto was also unpopular. So I'm not sure if this fits very well.

Lastly is the notion of her suicidal confession where she does the tragic romeo and juliet thing by heroically sacraficing herself for her beloved. While Sakura at the time is not seen.

I think technically, she had a ton of followers already XD;;

It still suprises me how many people dismiss that aspect of it. That Hinatas self admitted selfishness was actually selflessness, while claiming that Sakuras Selfess act of duty was selfish and shows she didnt care about naruto.

It was selfish, but she certainly did care about Naruto. She wasn't lying about loving him. It was a desperate move, as all of the confessions thus far have been. To me, the better argument to make about it would be to say that comparing Hinatas actions of love (self described as being selfish) to Naruto's actions of love (allowing Sakura to be with the person that would make her happy), it is quite obvious that Naruto has been portrayed as having a much more pure love towards Sakura. And then given that portrayal, making NS the more likely pairing of the two.

[Dreamer]

To make it simple the Shonen hero always gets his girl, well almost anyways.

Edited by Uzumakikage, 27 September 2010 - 01:27 AM.

[Gravenimage]

To make it simple the Shonen hero always gets his girl, well almost anyways.

It's suppose to be like that, at least all the shounen manga and anime I have watched. The concept of shounen is always that there's a happy ending after the main protagonist went through a lot of harships to fulfill his objectives, and in the end his rewarded well mainly he will get the girl he has always love. I think Kishi is obviously following this type of concept in a shounen manga.

Edited by Gravenimage, 27 September 2010 - 01:43 AM.

[catsi563]

Think you misread me on that last one soupy. I dont feel that way but I have heard that particular argument used by Anti NSers innumerable times which is what I was pointing out.