9679 replies to this topic

[catsi563]

Once again Soupy we are not in disagreement

I read no indication of a crush on Sai from Ino at least if there was one it was based on the "beautiful" comment and done as kind of a comedic double whoops that wasnt what i intended moment.

Still your final analysis is correct as long as they end up with someone who loves them all the better.

While I dont rely on the tropes utterly and completely they do make for a good road map to follow. Sakura is in many ways the exception to the rule of Tsunderes while she behaves in many similar ways she has several unique qualities not the least of which is her extraordinary development throughout the manga.

thus reading naruto as its own manga is the best way to go but denying its shonen roots also can lead to mistaken interpretations and mischaracterizations. How else would you explain Hinatas absurd popularity for what in Shonen terms is a sterotypical shy girl trope with weak abilities who stalks the main character and gives out a convession at a deparate moment before heroically sacraficing herself?

[Gravenimage]

Oh I hear you catsi on the Hinata part they were expecting that Naruto will fall in love with her after her suicidal confession when he barely knows her at all. And to this very day they are still demanding for Naruto to fall in love with her, to answer her confession and tell her that he feels the same way too. But apparently they completely ignored the rest of the story plot, they don't care about Sasuke, Madara or Akatsuki just that they want to see they shy girl who likes the hero getting together with him.

Edited by Gravenimage, 25 September 2010 - 07:40 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

thus reading naruto as its own manga is the best way to go but denying its shonen roots also can lead to mistaken interpretations and mischaracterizations. How else would you explain Hinatas absurd popularity for what in Shonen terms is a sterotypical shy girl trope with weak abilities who stalks the main character and gives out a convession at a deparate moment before heroically sacraficing herself?

I always based Hinata's popularity on the Moe factor, something that a rough character like Sakura might not have in comparison. And really, Hinata is more than that description. She isn't just a weak character, but instead one that was trying to get stronger because of being inspired by the main. Sakura is also a character like that, though she has more reason than Hinata and inspiration outside of just the main character. Her confession was desperate, but so were all the other confessions in this manga, including two by the tsundere character.

With Ino, she did seem very pleased by Sai's compliment and wanted to sit by him at the meal, I believe. I never saw any outstanding care in regards to Chouji, at least not more than she has shown for Shikamaru. I also always wondered if Kishi intended to leave the Ino-Shika-Cho alliance as close friends and not have any of them hook up. Since he stated pretty clearly in an interview that he wasn't intending on writing romance for Shikamaru and Temari, I'm not really sure what to think about pairings for this group.

[Gravenimage]

I always based Hinata's popularity on the Moe factor, something that a rough character like Sakura might not have in comparison. And really, Hinata is more than that description. She isn't just a weak character, but instead one that was trying to get stronger because of being inspired by the main. Sakura is also a character like that, though she has more reason than Hinata and inspiration outside of just the main character. Her confession was desperate, but so were all the other confessions in this manga, including two by the tsundere character.

With Ino, she did seem very pleased by Sai's compliment and wanted to sit by him at the meal, I believe. I never saw any outstanding care in regards to Chouji, at least not more than she has shown for Shikamaru. I also always wondered if Kishi intended to leave the Ino-Shika-Cho alliance as close friends and not have any of them hook up. Since he stated pretty clearly in an interview that he wasn't intending on writing romance for Shikamaru and Temari, I'm not really sure what to think about pairings for this group.

Yes he did say that in the last interview he did and he also said that this year will be Kakashi's year and that he will try to make Sakura look more heroic. And so far he hasn't done any of the things he has said in the interview, and it's been like 9 months since that interview. The point is we shouldn't believe in the things he says in interviews we can't forget that mangakas will never say spoilers in interviews, they only say a general idea or preview of the future events that might happen in their manga. Also that most of the mangakas that point things out in their manga like Kishi don't mean them because they will change their mind with each chapter they write.

In conclusion we can only see Kishi's true intentions and what he's up to just by reading his manga, he might not give Shikamaru any romance but that doesn't mean he won't hook him up with Temari who knows.

[holy_demon]

Oh I hear you catsi on the Hinata part they were expecting that Naruto will fall in love with her after her suicidal confession when he barely knows her at all. And to this very day they are still demanding for Naruto to fall in love with her, to answer her confession and tell her that he feels the same way too. But apparently they completely ignored the rest of the story plot, they don't care about Sasuke, Madara or Akatsuki just that they want to see they shy girl who likes the hero getting together with him.

Even though I'm greatly annoyed by Hinata's attempt at killing herself for nothing (really, I have no idea what she jumped out to the open field for), it's pretty weird that Naruto didn't confront Hinata afterward. She was acting insubordinate and suicidal, which could cause danger to others. Shouldn't Naruto, the main cause, try to prevent it from happening again ? Or was he just being a nice guy and avoiding the issues ?

Edited by holy_demon, 25 September 2010 - 10:22 PM.

[catsi563]

The Moe factor is almost certianly one explanation as is the underdog factor. The Bella factor may even play into it abit as Hinata is oft perceived as perfect with no flaws aside from her shyness and lack of confidence which her fans automatically asume will vanish magically, and be replaced ((ironically)) with a sakura like toughness and abiltiy to keep Naruto in check.

With Ino its not about outstandingc are, though there have been very plausible hints. When he was in the hospital she felt great relief at its being said that hed recover ok thanks to Tsunade.

There was also a subtle hint laid in with her speech to him about Girls liking Slimemr boys in part 1. granted neither is blaring direct proof but there is enough under tone to each scene to imply the possibility.

More then likely as yous ay he will leave them as just friends all around but who knows. Kishimoto also said at first that he didnt intend Sakura to be the main heroine, and yet look where she is now.

Story follows plot and evolves as we ((both authors in are own right)) know so well.

As graven said well have to wait and see.

[Miss Soupy]

The Moe factor is almost certianly one explanation as is the underdog factor. The Bella factor may even play into it abit as Hinata is oft perceived as perfect with no flaws aside from her shyness and lack of confidence which her fans automatically asume will vanish magically, and be replaced ((ironically)) with a sakura like toughness and abiltiy to keep Naruto in check.

Bella, as in the one from Twilight? o_O Oh my...

Well I think truthfully Hinata doesn't have a ton of flaws, but for a good reason. She is a minor character, so a lot of her isn't expounded upon. She basically is what you see, there isn't a lot of depth given to her because she is very seldom used in the story. I agree that people probably confuse this with perfection, which is sad. Lacking depth does not equal perfection. Shino doesn't seem to have many flaws either, but that is because we know very little about him.

Thinking about it, I think a lot of people are attracted to the underdog love story that Hinata provides. Since you have the main character starting out as an underdog, I think some readers probably were more inclined to like the underdog Hinata as well. Since Sakura started out being so boastful and on top of that, rough towards Naruto, she wasn't liked. But then sweet little innocent Hinata admired him from the start and yet never was noticed. Suddenly she deserves to be with the hero because she is the underdog too, and if you believe in one underdog, why not believe in another? They basically didn't give Sakura a chance, and when all of her insecurities were revealed, and she was starting to be nice to Naruto, it was too late for her since Hinata had already been favored. By then, it was easy to stick with the 'well, Sakura loves Sasuke anyways' mindset in order to protect NH as a pairing.

[Gravenimage]

Obviously like I have mentioned dozens of times that the west public supports NH and SS simply because it shows typical topics that reflects in a lot of western culture.

Shy girl who likes the oblivious knucklehead she wants him like her but she's too shy to say a word to him.

Girl likes dark brooding popular guy she wants to gain his attention but she always mess up.

There are lots of western movies that relefects on the NH SS pairings (especially high school movies).

A lot of the western girls see themselves as Sakura and Hinata trying to gain the affection of the boys they like (of course I'm only speaking from part 1 of the manga only).

Edited by Gravenimage, 26 September 2010 - 01:10 AM.

[Miss Soupy]

I've always seen it argued that western culture likes the shrinking violet type of girl, but I have a hard time seeing how that is so. What are some examples of this? When I think about the cartoons I liked growing up, which were mostly disney movies, most of those had a spunky female main character. Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, Lion King, Little Mermaid... None of the lead females seem to be Hinata like to me.

[ciardha]

Sorry Kushina but the tone of your post suggests to me that the one who needs to dismount from the tall equestrian is you.

First Ciardhas original post ((whish I agree with in principle)) was mainly a supposition about what might have happened in the time skip not what did happen. your saying she was ""full of it"" was uncalled for and not an argument. I found her supposition appropriate and highly plausible.

Next calling her @ss backwards is just as offencive and uncalled for. It can easilly be construed that a person like Ino could have subtle feelings for someone like Choji, and still have some unrealistic expectations for someone Like Sasuke to return, espeiclaly given her reaction to the decision to kill him by the rookies and team Gai,. So again her supposition is supported at leats in theory by the manga.

And to your other mangas dont count comment, your off base there as well. Other manga are just as relevant to Naruto as they are to anything. Naruto may have its own unique story and plot, but it draws heavilly from multiple classic shonen tropes and storylines. The devlopment of characters and plot is consistent with many shonen standards and I'm comfortable with that.

Thanks catsi. As I said I'm just throwing this out there from my perspective with a very strong background in understanding manga and anime as well as Japanese sociocultural elements that come out in a manga writers works (Kishimoto moreso than most action shonen writers) I'm not just an anime/manga fan after all. I have had a great love for traditional Japanese art, music, literature and poetry, and fascination with Japanese history (especially women's history) since I was around 8 years old, an interest that was deepened by becoming a fan of Yoko Ono when I was 12. (It stuns me when I realize I've been a fan of Yoko's for just about 32 years- I'll turn 44 on Monday and I remember it wasn't long after my 12th birthday when I discovered by reading a copy of the famous John (and Yoko too) Lennon 1970 interview titled "Lennon Remembers". that contrary to the nasty racist and sexist stereotypes Yoko was intelligent, compassionate, and more understanding of the consequences of political actions than John or Jann Wener were. She can be a bit naive about how hard it is to get people on the right page working for peace- it can be done, but it's harder than her sweet statements- but the statements do influence none the less so the more she does it, the more it reaches people and makes them think (Considering how many years and how much she's worked for bringing people all over the world to think of and work for world peace, she should have received the Noble Peace Prize long ago... She's even spoken twice at the United Nations on the topic of world peace.), but personal and general politics itself, she's pretty sharp about that. I've learned from her quite a bit I can proudly say. (to fully grasp Yoko's art, writings and music one needs to have knowledge of not just her western influences- European classical and operatic music, 12 tone composers, surrealist writers like Camus, French surrealist films of the 1940's and 50's, freeform jazz, Jon Cage- who was influenced by Yoko in turn, and of course the mutual influence John and Yoko had on each other, but the traditional arts of Japan, Zen Buddhism, and Japanese history and culture as well as at least some knowledge of the Japanese language. It gave me major insights of what I was seeing in manga and anime even during the first major wave of manga translation publishing in the mid-late 1980's. I picked up on shonen manga tropes first because (Other than Fred Shodt's partial translation of Rose of Versailles there were no shoujo manga being translated. Sailor Moon began to crack open that iron door, but the US fan favorite Fushigi Yuugi blew that door open in 2000. (thankfully there were early fansubbers selling VHS tapes over the internet for little more than the cost of a tape and postage, so I saw many shoujo anime that way (most that have still not been translated by Viz, etc...) and bought the original Japanese manga tankobons via Sasuga and Fuji online bookstores (both stores are gone now, I believe, sigh.)

it doesn't bother me if someone doesn't agree with me, just the nastiness like what you pointed out gets me irritated and I will defend my perspective from pointing out that my perspective comes from a very strong background on the subject- in other words I know what I'm talking about, due to not only knowing the subject but over 30 years near constant study on Japanese history and cuture. (Career wise I really should have been a research librarian, rather than a librarian in a public library but it's close enough to be a comfortable job for me- and it's even given me a couple of chance to be a (unpaid) research consultant for two professional writers, who came to me because of my deep knowledge of Japan history and culture.)

(I know I'm getting defensive about this- but as a research librarian at heart- it's a source of joy for me to research and pass along my knowledge, I don't like being treated nastily when I do so. I don't care if you disagree just don't act nasty about it. When a person acts that way to me I get irritated.)

Catsi, we've disagreed plenty of times, and maintained a polite tone. I respect your opinion and try to understand your perspective when we do disagree.

For example, I know you feel the bench scene in chapter 3 is absolutely crucial and must be resolved for Sakura to fully let go of the remnants of her feelings for Sasuke. (I do believe we both agree that those remnants of feelings did not in any way forestall her falling in love with Naruto with all her heart- that it has nothing to do with her true and deep love for Naruto) I didn't feel it was as crucial (and to support that Kishimoto didn't have it in Sakura's flashbacks when she couldn't quite go through with stabbing Sasuke in the back) But when Kushina made her statement about Minato praising her hair and that made her love him, I thought- ah! points to catsi! She saw the weight of that moment as as more crucial than I did- I agreed it had most certainly had some impact, but thought her observations of the few moments of the real Sasuke at his best- caring about the welfare of the whole team, had a much stronger impact. Kushina's words made me change my mind a bit- Kishimoto's favorite thing after all is parallels....

Edited by ciardha, 26 September 2010 - 02:34 AM.

[Derock]

Bella, as in the one from Twilight? o_O Oh my...

Well I think truthfully Hinata doesn't have a ton of flaws, but for a good reason. She is a minor character, so a lot of her isn't expounded upon. She basically is what you see, there isn't a lot of depth given to her because she is very seldom used in the story. I agree that people probably confuse this with perfection, which is sad. Lacking depth does not equal perfection. Shino doesn't seem to have many flaws either, but that is because we know very little about him.

Thinking about it, I think a lot of people are attracted to the underdog love story that Hinata provides. Since you have the main character starting out as an underdog, I think some readers probably were more inclined to like the underdog Hinata as well. Since Sakura started out being so boastful and on top of that, rough towards Naruto, she wasn't liked. But then sweet little innocent Hinata admired him from the start and yet never was noticed. Suddenly she deserves to be with the hero because she is the underdog too, and if you believe in one underdog, why not believe in another? They basically didn't give Sakura a chance, and when all of her insecurities were revealed, and she was starting to be nice to Naruto, it was too late for her since Hinata had already been favored. By then, it was easy to stick with the 'well, Sakura loves Sasuke anyways' mindset in order to protect NH as a pairing.

Thank you for pointing that out. And wtf? They now comparing Hinata to Bella? EW!

But the most important reason is that fans rely on fan service/ideas to keep it going. As much as many people loves Hinata as the underdog, they just want her to be with Naruto period or in the males' POV, after 347 (and that dreadful episode of Shippuden 166), Naruto has/must bang her ASAP. Seriously I had this talk recently with one of my friends and he's Pro-NaruHina and anti-Sakura fan, and I literally want to face-palm during the whole conversation and there was a lot of support of my peers supporting Hinata like she's a main character and dropping poor Sakura like she was garbage. It makes me want to avoid these conversations of their opinions of Naruto just to have sex with her without noticing that he doesn't give a damn about her romantically.

I've always seen it argued that western culture likes the shrinking violet type of girl, but I have a hard time seeing how that is so. What are some examples of this? When I think about the cartoons I liked growing up, which were mostly disney movies, most of those had a spunky female main character. Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, Lion King, Little Mermaid... None of the lead females seem to be Hinata like to me.

And you know what? You're absolutely right with this, Soupy. Disney movies has nothing to do with this because majority of the female characters in the animated movies were spunky, unique female characters: Jasmine, Belle, Mulan, Ariel, Nala and even Tiana has those qualities. However, comparing to shows like the new 90210 or Degrassi, we might say we can blame that (though I haven't gotten towards Degrassi that much and I haven't seen a shy female character in 90210).

[Gravenimage]

The fact that Hinata has always like Naruto, that she's too shy to tell him anything about it, and that she's the underdog. It's enough to make the western audience love her and to support her she must have Naruto or she must end up with him simply because of the qualities I mentioned previously. It got worst that when she was introduced in part 2 she still likes Naruto that's what continued to motivate them continuing supporting her, and that's why there are still so many NH fans waiting for Naruto to get together with her (I started wishing that Kishi would have make Hinata stop liking Naruto in part 2 ). Or mainly like Derock mentioned they only want to see Naruto get laid with Hinata (completely ignoring the fact that Naruto is a shounen manga and NOT a NH hentai doujin).

In conclusion the western audience who supports NH don't believe in slow love development like Kishi has done throughout his entire manga with Naruto and Sakura they just want Naruto with Hinata. Kishi keeps proving them wrong keeping the main protagonist far away from the secondary character who is not important to the plot whatsoever. They keep saying that NH is a "patient love" so it's so patient that they keep giving so much patience out of it (It's been 511 chapters of the manga in general and Naruto doesn't love Hinata he still loves Sakura, but since it's a patient love it will come eventually).

My opinion I prefer NS which is a "growing love" than a" a patient love" due that a patient love has absolutely no development and I believe Kishi loves slow development in his manga. I doubt he will pull a HP or a Twilight but that's what they are expecting.

Edited by Gravenimage, 26 September 2010 - 10:16 AM.

[ciardha]

My opinion I prefer NS which is a "growing love" than a" a patient love" due that a patient love has absolutely no development and I believe Kishi loves slow development in his manga. I doubt he will pull a HP or a Twilight but that's what they are expecting.

Yeah GinnyxHarry is somewhat comparable to the naruhina fantasy, (except Ginny and Harry did plenty of "playing the field" not just one rival person for their affections, and Harry actually had a thing for Ginny, amongst other girls, basically the whole time he was interested in girls) and Twilight to the sasusaku fantasy, (Except Edward is very interested in Bella all along, and from what I've heard he's the one who controls the relationship start to finish, Bella just passively follows along) but yeah in western popular literature written for teens, teen character movies and TV shows dating back to the 1950's the model is the demure good girl who worships the popular boy (whether a jock or a bad boy or both, etc... So much so that the musical "Grease" sends it up.

RonxHermoine is the western version of the model Jiratsu follows, the classic shonen tsundere girl and somewhat cluessless boy who likes her but is forever saying or doing something that hacks her off- boy and girl squabble, boy causes problems by acting like an ass and skirt chasing. Hana Yori Dango is the shoujo manga that most closely follows the shonen model rather than the shoujo model of that trope. Naruto with narusaku and minakush follows more the classic shoujo version of that trope in the characters personalities (Rose of Versailles) where the boy adores the girl for her natural qualities and for her strong will, and they are close compatriots for years. Her first crush is an attractive popular young man who isn't interested in her but has other concerns (Fersen is no brooding Sasuke though, but a Swedish diplomat very interested in Marie Antoinette- and she to him) eventually Lady Oscar falls as deeply in love with Andre as he is still to her. (Andre never is interested in another girl, it's always Lady Oscar)

[Cloud]

Is this a NS debate? Or a rant on history and how you're a professional at Japanese History, ciardha?

Respectfully, it's gone off topic.

Edited by Cloud, 26 September 2010 - 04:53 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

And you know what? You're absolutely right with this, Soupy. Disney movies has nothing to do with this because majority of the female characters in the animated movies were spunky, unique female characters: Jasmine, Belle, Mulan, Ariel, Nala and even Tiana has those qualities. However, comparing to shows like the new 90210 or Degrassi, we might say we can blame that (though I haven't gotten towards Degrassi that much and I haven't seen a shy female character in 90210).

That's pretty much what I thought too, which is why I can't see where this argument about western culture likes the silent girl comes from

Yeah GinnyxHarry is somewhat comparable to the naruhina fantasy, (except Ginny and Harry did plenty of "playing the field" not just one rival person for their affections, and Harry actually had a thing for Ginny, amongst other girls, basically the whole time he was interested in girls) and Twilight to the sasusaku fantasy, (Except Edward is very interested in Bella all along, and from what I've heard he's the one who controls the relationship start to finish, Bella just passively follows along) but yeah in western popular literature written for teens, teen character movies and TV shows dating back to the 1950's the model is the demure good girl who worships the popular boy (whether a jock or a bad boy or both, etc... So much so that the musical "Grease" sends it up.

Ginny actually had a much more fiery personality though when she got older, so she isn't Hinata-like. And I think looking back towards the 1950's is looking back too far. You have to look at the recent generations and the types of shows they grew up with to make a good argument. As Derock said, we grew up watching cartoons with strong female leads. I'm pretty sure the majority of Naruto fans today who are in love with Hinata have never even seen Grease. Unless you have better examples, I don't see how this is the case...

[Dreamer]

Is this a NS debate? Or a rant on history and how you're a professional at Japanese History, ciardha?

Respectfully, it's gone off topic.

That and *what's up with this TWILIGHT comparisons*? PLEASE no more twilight

[Gravenimage]

That and *what's up with this TWILIGHT comparisons*? PLEASE no more twilight

Looks like someone doesn't like Twilight but then again who doesn't?

[Insurrection]

Looks like someone doesn't like Twilight but then again who doesn't?

It's target demographic and several older women. It's horrible in retrospect.

Okay let me get this straight.

Harry Potter
Twilight
Disney movies

Those are the comparisons we're making?



You people are really freaking me out now.

Edited by Insurrection, 26 September 2010 - 05:24 PM.

[Gravenimage]

Let's just stay on topic before the moderators close this thread again.

[maliousdei]

hey guys, can someone please explain why people assume sakura sees naruto as a brother? And if you can, could you please disprove the theory of sakura seeing naruto as a brother?