9679 replies to this topic

[Cloud]

but most dont read much manga there are falts to that thought.

This statement contradicts everything you say.

If manga readers don't read much manga, we shouldn't even be discussing anything. Since they haven't read MUCH manga.

Paradoxical much?

[Dreamer]

but most dont read much manga there are falts to that thought.

Then manga in Japan wouldn't be one of it's biggest entertainment and sales. You need to read more manga to gain more knowledge and better understanding of them.

[Gravenimage]

Then manga in Japan wouldn't be one of it's biggest entertainment and sales. You need to read more manga to gain more knowledge and better understanding of them.

Congrats Uzumakikage on your 3000 post

[Miss Soupy]

So what do you guys think? Is Yahiko/Konan meant to be yet another parallel hint towards NaruSaku? Is this Kishi pushing the new generation to surpass the older generation in every aspect, including love, or no?

[catsi563]

considering Asumas words to Ino yeah I think so.

[Gravenimage]

considering Asumas words to Ino yeah I think so.

"Don't lose to Sakura in love". It has a double meaning I think it means that the same way Sakura has found someone she can really be happy that Ino can find someone she can be happy too *cough Chouji cough*

Edited by Gravenimage, 25 September 2010 - 12:42 AM.

[jason voorhees]

So what do you guys think? Is Yahiko/Konan meant to be yet another parallel hint towards NaruSaku? Is this Kishi pushing the new generation to surpass the older generation in every aspect, including love, or no?

Mabe oh mabe

[ciardha]

I think it means that the same way Sakura has found someone she can really be happy that Ino can find someone she can be happy too *cough Chouji cough*

Yeah, Asuma would have been aware probably nearly as much aware as Shikamaru was that Chouji has had romantic feelings for Ino at least since they were all 12. And also picked up on Ino having some of those type feelings for Chouji.

It makes it almost certain that Sakura became the third member of team 10 when Sakura, Chouji and Ino took a second Chunnin exam- that they all passed at 14. He must have noticed during the training period leading up to that Chunnin exam how Sakura was talking a lot about missing Naruto and saying nothing about Sasuke unless Ino brought him up first, and noticed Sakura was not getting into fights with Ino about Sasuke anymore. Ino was still fangirling over Sasuke while Sakura wasn't

[crazyefra]

Is there any chance that Kishi would do the worst and end the manga with a NaruSasu gay ending?

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Now playing: Hoobastank - Out of Control
via FoxyTunes

[Grace]

It makes it almost certain that Sakura became the third member of team 10 when Sakura, Chouji and Ino took a second Chunnin exam- that they all passed at 14. He must have noticed during the training period leading up to that Chunnin exam how Sakura was talking a lot about missing Naruto and saying nothing about Sasuke unless Ino brought him up first, and noticed Sakura was not getting into fights with Ino about Sasuke anymore. Ino was still fangirling over Sasuke while Sakura wasn't

This is all certain how? Congratulations, you have the start of a fanfiction.

@Soupy--

I can see Yahiko/Konan+Nagato being a parallel to the current Team 7: Naruto and Sakura finally getting things straight between them while Sai relaxes on the sidelines. Might be Kishi's way of showing us that if the Ame team can have a romance without screwing the team dynamic, then it's possible for Naruto and Sakura to be together without isolating whoever's left over.

I've already seen people arguing that Yahiko/Konan can't be a NaruSaku parallel, though, because Konan and Sakura differ in personality--they believe that if anything Y/K is meant to be a sign of Naruto finally taking notice of Hinata (tough guy getting bandaged by the gentler girl, kisskissbangbang). Trouble with that, to me, is that while Konan certainly isn't as outspoken or aggressive as Sakura tends to be, she resembled Sakura-in-love in that scene with Yahiko IMO. She'd taken notice of her strong, determined, bright teammate and was helping fix him up after a long day of battle. Close proximity mixed with an air of nurture leads to a kiss.

Sound plausible for any other kids we know, especially given the route their relationship has taken lately?

[ciardha]

This is all certain how? Congratulations, you have the start of a fanfiction.

Apparently you missed the "almost", no prize for you.

That being said everything I said fits perfectly well with the characters development in canon. the only real guess is about Sakura being the third on Team 10's second try and that's no real leap either- hmm, they need three to enter the exams, Shikamaru is already a Jonin so Team 10 is short one person. Team 7 is now just one Genin, the other teams aren't missing anyone so, you know it's a pretty freaking obvious thing to figure out. Tsunade's behavior in chapter 248 around Sakura showed an obvious awareness that Sakura had been missing and had become attracted to Naruto, and Sakura's overt flirtation with Naruto again makes this another pretty freaking obvious thing to figure out. Sakura was already showing a conscious letting go of her romantic feelings for Sasuke, and her affections drawing toward Naruto when she interacts with him in the hospital at the end of part 1. Note the very marked lack of romantic actions even when Sakura sees Sasuke for the first time in two and half years, much less when she attempts to fool him that she wanted to join up with him. She couldn't even fake a fangirlish reaction. If Sakura has romantic feelings she's really obvious about it. If you pay attention to the hospital scene with Naruto at the end of Part 1 thoughts of Sasuke make her depressed, but thoughts of Naruto have her acting as her true self- smiling and determined. Asuma was much more observant of people's feelings than Kakashi is. It's pretty obvious what Asuma meant.

What did you think Asuma meant? That Ino should keep fighting Sakura for Sasuke's affections when Sasuke, even in part 1 had no interest in either, and frankly, if anything loathed Ino even more? Then on top of that Sasuke was even then known to willingly be with Orochimaru, to the point of attempting to kill his team mates for just wanting to talk to him and beg him to come back to Konoha.

Clearly Asuma had seen Ino and Sakura interacting since the first Chunnin exams, and noticed how Sakura was not just becoming more skilled and powerful, but emotional she was leaving behind her childish one sided crush on Sasuke. Asuma was worried Ino hadn't grown up and seen reality and knew he could spur her into action by invoking it as a challenge to outdo Sakura.

And you know, denying Sakura's change in her feelings would be like saying Kushina never changed her first impression of Minato. Kishimoto made the parallel overt.

crazyfra- while that yaoi pairing won't happen (Naruto is het and a bit of a homophobe to boot) at least unlike sasusaku (uh no, absolutely won't happen, Sasuke never had any romantic feelings for Sakura, and Sakura, while she has memories of her crush on Sasuke, her heart is fully engaged to Naruto) or naruhina (Naruto never had or will have any romantic feelings for her, and she appears to be starting to move on from romantic feelings for Naruto now) there is an intense mutual bond between Naruto and Sasuke. For Naruto it's a brother like bond, on Sasuke side it's literally love/hate.

Edited by ciardha, 25 September 2010 - 05:47 AM.

[Grace]

Apparently you missed the "almost", no prize for you.

Your words were "It makes it almost certain that..."--how does the "almost" change the fact that you took a slightly plausible notion (Sakura joining Ino and Chouji to retake the chuunin exam) and ran with it as though it were "certain"? Just because Sakura and Ino are friends does not automatically mean they joined up to retake the exam; assuming they did and claiming what you believe could have happened next is "almost certain" does not make it so. No prize for you.

That being said everything I said fits perfectly well with the characters development in canon. the only real guess is about Sakura being the third on Team 10's second try and that's no real leap either- hmm, they need three to enter the exams, Shikamaru is already a Jonin so Team 10 is short one person. Team 7 is now just one Genin, the other teams aren't missing anyone so, you know it's a pretty freaking obvious thing to figure out.

Not entirely obvious, no. Hmmm, Sakura needs to pass the exam and would most likely, being the smart girl she is, look for a team she could fit in well with. Considering Ino and Chouji rely on someone that can hold enemies down for their combined attacks to work, Sakura wouldn't be a likely candidate. I'd almost guess Sakura would look for a group with more leveled abilities in taijutsu, but that's beside the point. Point is, it's not "pretty freaking obvious" that she'd join up with Ino and Chouji. Possible, but not the only way things could have happened.

Tsunade's behavior in chapter 248 around Sakura showed an obvious awareness that Sakura had been missing and had become attracted to Naruto, and Sakura's overt flirtation with Naruto again makes this another pretty freaking obvious thing to figure out.

248? The chapter focused mostly on Gaara and Deidara fighting? I'm going to assume you mean 245, when Naruto comes home. If that is the chapter you mean, I'm strugglin' to find any evidence that Tsunade was "obviously aware" of Sakura's attraction to Naruto. Aware that she missed him? Sure, that'd be a given, but here's all of Tsunade's interaction with or around Sakura during that chapter:

I'll get pictures later, if you want. --Click here to view--

--tells Sakura that Naruto's come home-->no nudgenudge-winkwink add-ons to imply that Tsunade thinks there's any *special* reason Sakura might want to know Naruto's back
--talks to Jiraiya about how Naruto's become more like him-->nothing implied there except that she doesn't like seeing Naruto become a perv
--tells the group to cut the "emotional reunion" short-->honestly, from the look on her face I'd say she was being sarcastic when calling it an emotional reunion

No "obvious awareness" there to me. As for Sakura's flirtation, it's minute. I've seen you consistently imply that Sakura was "overtly inviting Naruto to view her body in a sexual way" (read it so many times, I know the exact words), and honestly? I think you're full of it. Yes, she was flirting, and yes she asked him whether she'd become more womanly--but that doesn't mean she was being overtly sexual or making invitations to jump her bones. There's no way for me to deny that she was flirting with him about her appearance which implies some level of physical/sexual attraction, but I find it hard to believe that not even five minutes after seeing him for the first time in two years, she was trying to go sexual all over him.

Sakura was already showing a conscious letting go of her romantic feelings for Sasuke, and her affections drawing toward Naruto when she interacts with him in the hospital at the end of part 1. Note the very marked lack of romantic actions even when Sakura sees Sasuke for the first time in two and half years, much less when she attempts to fool him that she wanted to join up with him. She couldn't even fake a fangirlish reaction. If Sakura has romantic feelings she's really obvious about it. If you pay attention to the hospital scene with Naruto at the end of Part 1 thoughts of Sasuke make her depressed, but thoughts of Naruto have her acting as her true self- smiling and determined. Asuma was much more observant of people's feelings than Kakashi is. It's pretty obvious what Asuma meant. What did you think Asuma meant? That Ino should keep fighting Sakura for Sasuke's affections when Sasuke, even in part 1 had no interest in either, and frankly, if anything loathed Ino even more? Then on top of that Sasuke was even then known to willingly be with Orochimaru, to the point of attempting to kill his team mates for just wanting to talk to him and beg him to come back to Konoha.

Her affections drawing towards Naruto in the hospital--debatable. When I read that scene, it appears more to me like she's working on getting past the pain Sasuke's inflicted while letting Naruto know that she's there for him; she's working on being a friend and teammate, not acting on her suddenly realized romantic feelings for Naruto. Of course thinking of Sasuke's going to make her depressed; the guy just ditched them all for a creeper with power, knocked her out and left her on a bench, and beat the snot out of Naruto. And of course thoughts of Naruto are going to make her more smiley and determined, that was a side-point of the PoaL: to make Sakura realize that Naruto not only understands her but is also capable of supporting her with his determination. Touching and strong foundations for their later relationship: yes. Proof that at that time Sakura was romantically inclined towards Naruto: no.

What the hell kind of romantic reaction would you expect Sakura to show when they finally met up with Sasuke? Even if she still had feelings for him when they found him, he was still the guy that had torn her world down when he left; it'd be like meeting up with the guy that you want to cure of cancer despite him dumping you. At the same time, though, just because she didn't flush or flash sparkling shoujo eyes at him doesn't immediately say she was over him.

As for Asuma, let me start off by saying I really couldn't care less about who Ino ends up with. Love the girl, but don't strive to determine whether or not she'll end up in a pairing. That said, I don't think Asuma had any particular boy in mind when he told Ino not to lose to Sakura in love. These were his dying words to her; don't you think if he had really had a guy in mind that he thought Ino would be happy with, he would have at least said the guy's name? Given that he didn't, we're left to assume that he said it only because he knew she and Sakura would always have some rivalry between them, and that Ino should never settle for anything; she should make sure to find someone amazing. And also given that Ino's a minor character whose love-life has no impact on the plot, Kishimoto wouldn't have been ruining anything by tossing in a guy's name there; since he didn't, I don't think Asuma's words were meant to be related to Sasuke, Chouji, or anyone else you can think up.

Clearly Asuma had seen Ino and Sakura interacting since the first Chunnin exams, and noticed how Sakura was not just becoming more skilled and powerful, but emotional she was leaving behind her childish one sided crush on Sasuke. Asuma was worried Ino hadn't grown up and seen reality and knew he could spur her into action by invoking it as a challenge to outdo Sakura.

And you know, denying Sakura's change in her feelings would be like saying Kushina never changed her first impression of Minato. Kishimoto made the parallel overt.

Now I'm confused. You've said that Asuma had picked up on Ino having romantic feelings for Chouji, yet say here that Asuma was worried she hadn't faced the reality about Sasuke and used his dying words to tell her to grow the hell up? How ass-backwards.

Who's denying the change in Sakura's feelings? If you're implying that I have, then be assured I have no doubt about them. (Would be kind of silly for me to be on this site if I did, right?) If that comment isn't directed at me, then you have me all the more confused.

[Dreamer]

Congrats Uzumakikage on your 3000 post

thanks!

As for Ino, i just don't see her with Chouji in the manga. I do want to see more Ino anime filler on her "i can almost fall for him" statement to Naruto.

Edited by Uzumakikage, 25 September 2010 - 10:47 AM.

[ciardha]

thanks!

As for Ino, i just don't see her with Chouji in the manga. I do want to see more Ino anime filler on her "i can almost fall for him" statement to Naruto.

Ino's feelings for Chouji pretty much developed along the same path as Sakura's for Naruto's. And Chouji's feelings for Ino pretty much like Naruto's for Sakura. They are support characters so Kishimoto just drops in minor bits here and there through the years.

Shikamaru may or may not end up with Temari, but the only female he has shown any attraction to is her, and she for him. It's likely we'll see them together at the end but it'll be one of those very typical final chapter epilogue time skip bits. It's so common a thing in both shonen and shoujo manga that it's practically a given that it will happen. And with Kishimoto's storytelling style I'm almost 100% sure there will be such an epilogue chapter- too see Naruto as that revolutionary Hokage, etc...

Note to the other person, you have to look at the manga through Japanese cultural eyes, not American. It takes reading a fair number of manga over time, associating with Japanese people, really knowing the sociohistorical elements on a deep to fully understand the nuances of words, body language, etc... in a manga like Naruto.

[Grace]

Note to the other person, you have to look at the manga through Japanese cultural eyes, not American. It takes reading a fair number of manga over time, associating with Japanese people, really knowing the sociohistorical elements on a deep to fully understand the nuances of words, body language, etc... in a manga like Naruto.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that I'm "the other person"; I have a username, and it's not hard to find.

If you are directing this at me as a response to my post, then I've gotta commend you for your cop-out. No better way to avoid replying to someone's content than by telling them they don't have the know-how, right? You're not the only one that's read numerous manga or is decently familiar with Japanese culture, so feel free to step down from your high-horse and take the time to back up your opinions with references to the manga--and I do mean this manga, not any others you may have read at some point in your life.

If your comments were not directed at me...take this as me dropping my two-cents anyways; I'll just continue to wait for a decent response if you have one =]

[Gravenimage]

I sense an argument coming from both ciardha and Kushina. Come on I know you guys are giving your thoughts and opinions but there's no need to have an argument that might lead to a verbal fight.

ciardha has read a lot of manga so she obviously have a lot experience in shounen and other mangas. Kushina you also make good valid points to me you're both right. Although you both seem to disagree to an extent it doesn't change the fact that you're NS fans and we all know the development is right there in the manga and that Kishi hasn't put it there for decoration (it's there for a reason).

Edited by Gravenimage, 25 September 2010 - 06:19 PM.

[catsi563]

Sorry Kushina but the tone of your post suggests to me that the one who needs to dismount from the tall equestrian is you.

First Ciardhas original post ((whish I agree with in principle)) was mainly a supposition about what might have happened in the time skip not what did happen. your saying she was ""full of it"" was uncalled for and not an argument. I found her supposition appropriate and highly plausible.

Next calling her @ss backwards is just as offencive and uncalled for. It can easilly be construed that a person like Ino could have subtle feelings for someone like Choji, and still have some unrealistic expectations for someone Like Sasuke to return, espeiclaly given her reaction to the decision to kill him by the rookies and team Gai,. So again her supposition is supported at leats in theory by the manga.

And to your other mangas dont count comment, your off base there as well. Other manga are just as relevant to Naruto as they are to anything. Naruto may have its own unique story and plot, but it draws heavilly from multiple classic shonen tropes and storylines. The devlopment of characters and plot is consistent with many shonen standards and I'm comfortable with that.

[Grace]

I sense an argument coming from both ciardha and Kushina. Come on I know you guys are giving your thoughts and opinions but there's no need to have an argument that might lead to a verbal fight.

ciardha has read a lot of manga so she obviously have a lot experience in shounen and other mangas. Kushina you also make good valid points to me you're both right. Although you both seem to disagree to an extent it doesn't change the fact that you're NS fans and we all know the development is right there in the manga and that Kishi hasn't put it there for decoration (it's there for a reason).

I wasn't angling for an argument, but you're right--it could be toned down. I just think that just because one has experience with manga does not mean their opinion is suddenly much more valid than everyone else's; relying on that experience and talking down to others is silly, especially in a debate.

But no hard feelings meant; I'm just here for a fair debate about a pairing I greatly enjoy =]

@catsi--

If you think I was on a high-horse, I apologize for anything that made you think so. My intent wasn't to overthrow anyone with my ego, but rather to equalize the field of opinion.

I didn't call her "full of it" because of her first post (about Sakura, Ino, and Chouji); I said that in reference to a different topic while backing up why I think so, and I'll stand by my opinion on that.

As for her supposition on Sakura/Ino/Chouji, I said that it wasn't as "obvious" as she believed, and I told her why with my own ideas picked up from the manga.

I'll grant you that saying "ass-backwards" was uncalled for, but to clear a tiny bit of misunderstanding, I was referring to the logic and not the person. Still, I'll apologize for the language. However, what I used the language for was to convey that her contradictory statements of Ino not being over Sasuke (so that Asuma would tell her to win in love, according to Ciardha) while also having developed "obvious" feelings for Chouji (which Asuma picked up on, according to Ciardha) is, well....contradictory. My "ass-backwards" comment was not directed at her belief that Ino had developed feelings for Chouji or dropped her feelings for Sasuke; only to her conflicting statements.

My comment was not "other manga don't count", and I'll thank you to not put words in my mouth. What I said was that if she's going to reply to me with a tone of "you don't know enough to argue" (as was what I got from her comment telling me that a wider knowledge of manga and Japanese culture is needed to understand), then she should do so with back-up from the manga to disprove me. As for using other shounen to discuss Naruto, sure--valid points can be pulled from comparisons, but I will hold to an opinion that just because this is a shounen does not mean that it should be held to standards set by other series. It should be looked at, first and foremost, as it's own story regardless of genre. Similarities to other series of its genre come as just that, similarities, IMO.

@ciardha--

No, by my own admission (I'm assuming you'r referring to my profile) I am in search of more shounen manga with romance. That does not say I haven't read shounen in the past or am completely unfamiliar with the genre. Believe me when I say that I'm well-aware of the flaws of the shoujo view of romance; it's the reason I've grown away from the genre as I've grown up. When discussing Naruto, I generally try to look at the romance in as opposite a "lens" from shoujo as possible because I recognize that they're so different.

My interpretation of "sexual" does not involve everything connecting to sex, no. Sakura's flirtation to me was not overtly sexual as you've put it numerous times; my argument was that she was obviously flirting with him physically (I mentioned as much), but was not being outrightly sexual. If you want to compare her actions to actual Japanese girls, then would you accept that I base my view of her flirting off of the remarks of both my Tokyo-born Japanese instructor and a Hokkaido-born schoolmate? Both have said that she was being flirty, but not in a way that could be taken as very adult.

I don't intend to "get ugly" or less polite, but just the same as you will respond in kind to that attitude I will always respond when I feel someone is talking down to me or trying to bowl me over because they think their experience makes their opinion more valid than others'. More experience does not always make for greater interpretation.


Whew, long post. I don't mean to start fires with anyone, so I'm sorry if I ever come across as snide or obnoxious.

Edited by Kushina, 25 September 2010 - 06:47 PM.

[ciardha]

By your own admission you are new reader to shonen manga. Shoujo manga makes every romantic moment ubermelodramatic (I say that and enjoy shoujo manga, a lot, but it's the truth of the matter. Viewing Naruto through the lens of a shoujo manga reading experience will make you miss romantic themes in shonen entirely. Shonen manga drastically underplays romantic moments compared to shoujo manga. The shonen manga approach to romance is actually a much accurate representation of how couples interact in romantic way in Japanese culture. Sakura's actions in chapter 245 (made a typo earlier when I wrote 248) is an incredibly blatent flirtation for a real Japanese girl. (You misrepresented what I said too, or apparently to you "sexual" only means to invite to have sex. No, as I said Sakura invites Naruto to look at her body in a blatently sexual way in 245. That's the context of "womanly" paired with her body language in Japanese culture.

I'm just pointing out the nuances I'm picking up from my considerable background in manga reading and many years of Japanese cultural knowledge. Take it as you will, I don't care really whether or not you agree with me. It will annoy me if you get ugly and I will get less polite. A polite I don't read it the same way and what you see is the better way.

[Miss Soupy]

It can easilly be construed that a person like Ino could have subtle feelings for someone like Choji, and still have some unrealistic expectations for someone Like Sasuke to return, espeiclaly given her reaction to the decision to kill him by the rookies and team Gai,. So again her supposition is supported at leats in theory by the manga.

Except that Ino seems to indicate she has a crush on Sai instead of Chouji. But I could care less who Ino gets with. Asuma's words to her were more of an encouragement for her to do her best in a way Ino would appreciate. As long as Ino and Sakura get with people that they truly love, neither of them lose in love.

And to your other mangas dont count comment, your off base there as well. Other manga are just as relevant to Naruto as they are to anything. Naruto may have its own unique story and plot, but it draws heavilly from multiple classic shonen tropes and storylines. The development of characters and plot is consistent with many shonen standards and I'm comfortable with that.

There is nothing wrong with comparing tropes, but you should not rely on them. Sakura is not a carbon copy of any one tsundere out there. Because of that, you cannot say that her path will be directly the same as every other. Your best evidence for a pairing in Naruto is the manga itself, not any other manga. If you are trying to compare one manga with another right off the bat, it leads you to draw conclusions about said manga before even knowing the story. You won't be very objective in the way you read. You know how easy it is for two people to read the same page and draw completely different interpretations from it. To me, being objective as you read is the best way to figure out what the author is trying to say in their work. I think that is most important when reading a story. While outside experiences might help you predict some events, they aren't exactly strong arguments for use in debate.