9679 replies to this topic

[Gravenimage]

I do find the whole Kushina and Hinata getting captured by Kumo a silly point to pin point that NH is going to become canon. They are obviously doing this because that's the only possible thing they have in common in addition that it's just a coincidence seriously. But like I said it's better to deny it than admitt it.

[ciardha]

However it was much more obvious that Inuyasha wasn't going to get with Kikyou (again) since he had already been with her and their relationship was destroyed before the start of the actual storyline.

Actually that's wrong. Inuyasha and Kikyo had mutual feelings, and once they realized it was Naruku that had destroyed their relationship they forgave each other and fell in love again. So Inuyasha was in love with both Kikyo and Kagome and there was loads and loads of angst about the triangle and Inuyasha was having great difficulty choosing between the two of them. Ultimately, it was solved by Kikyo sacrificing herself to save Kohaku and giving what was left of herself to Kagome.

It was far more uncertain than Kishimoto's. Kishimoto's has been screamingly obvious it Naruto and Sakura, even in part 1. One sided crushes do not a relationship make, never have, in Kishimoto's manga. That was clear even in part 1. It's part of fandom that tries to make things unclear that are obvious in the manga- which makes me wonder if they just don't understand how to read shonen manga with the tsundere type girl plotline. Kishimoto has done no "trolling", it's not his style. When he does romance- meaning developing mutual feelings (not one sided crushes) it's straightforward.

[catsi563]

Im with both Ciardha and Miss Soupy on this one.

The use of rival Pairings does not have to include mutually assured ones. SasuSaku and NaruHina are two such examples.

Also such one sided pairings can be used as SasuSaku and NaruHina have been for Dramatic effect, or in the case of Ranma and Tenshi Muyo for comedic effect as in the introduction of a host of romantic rivals which cause the main character no small amount of fun, craziness, and out right bruises.

But in the end Kishimoto has used a strong foundation of trust to build NaruSaku from the ground up and has continued to do so.

[Miss Soupy]

It was never really difficult for me to tell it was going to InuKag, but maybe that is just me. I also think Kishimoto goes out of his way to make pairings ambiguous (to the point where some things just don't make sense). Right when you think your pairing has support, he pulls the rug out from under your feet. That is my view of how he writes them. While NaruSaku has always had a trend of advancement, I can't say that it hasn't been trolled. Heck, I feel Sakura as a whole has been severely trolled. I don't mind NaruSaku having angst though, it adds more dynamic and gives it more of a real life feel. What couple is perfect and always gets along?

At the very least, Naruto pays attention to Sakura and he isn't trying to murder her But there is always the possibility that Kishi will make an open-ended...well, ending with no without-a-doubt pairing. I doubt it, but, I also doubted Sakura would settle with being a 'believe in both of them!' cheerleader

[Toasty Warrior]

Yeah I wasn't too pleased with Sakura just saying she'll believe in Naruto's words and doing nothing, I still hope Sakura has a chance to show what she's made of and become the heroine of the series like Kishimoto had mentioned.

Edited by Toasty Warrior, 21 September 2010 - 03:37 AM.

[Dreamer]

NarutoxKarin will become cannon, otherwise why would Kishi bring her to Konoha?

[ciardha]

It was never really difficult for me to tell it was going to InuKag, but maybe that is just me. I also think Kishimoto goes out of his way to make pairings ambiguous

No he doesn't. It's been really obvious since chapter 3 if you know the tsundere girl shonen romantic storyline. Kishimoto showed in the typical fashion way back in chapter 5 that Sakura's feelings for Naruto were already running deeper than her feelings for Sasuke. Subconsciously Sakura fell for Naruto in chapter 5.

Clue 1 the readers are meant to pick up on- Who does Sakura instinctively act to protect several times in moments she sees and that are profoundly dangerous, with nary a thought of how she was endangering her own life to do so- not Sasuke, Naruto.

Clue 2- Who's personality does hers mirror, to the point it's commented several times how much in synch their personalities are? Her's and Naruto. Remember, in Japan having hearts and minds in synch is the ideal, that includes in romance.

Both these show up way back early on in part 1. Thus even by chapter 5 it would be 100% clear to those that know shonen romantic plotlines that Naruto and Sakura already had a mutual and true romantic bond, even if it was subconscious on Sakura's part (a very common trope for the tsundere girl romance in shonen manga- except Kishimoto shows his hand right away, where the usual thing is to hide this for a while with the tsundere girl.

As I said he doesn't troll when it comes to characters who develop mutual romantic feelings where the female is a tsundere type- he doesn't with Jiraiya and Tsunade, he doesn't do it with Minato and Kushina, and he doesn't with Naruto and Sakura. Some readers mistake Kishimoto's character development with so called trolling. Every moment that some readers complained of trolling or pairing ambiguousness Kishimoto eventually made it even more overtly obvious that it was actually another step toward bring Naruto and Sakura together outright.


On Inuyasha- I knew it would be Inuyasha and Kagome because I know all the typical shonen manga romantic plotlines by heart- but Takahashi made it far more ambiguous than Kishimoto because Inuyasha continued to deeply love both Kikyo and Kagome all the way to when Kikyo sacrifices herself and it's made obvious that he will always have those feelings, but he loves Kagome just as much. But Takahashi had the majority of American readers completely unsure of who Inuyasha would end up with.

[Quinny52]

@ Miss Soupy and Toasty Warrior - To be honest, I think there's a misconception in regards to Sakura's statement of 'believing in both Naruto and Sasuke'. In my mind, what her words meant was that she had realised that she would never be able to reach Sasuke through either words or actions (in a sense recognising how little Sasuke regarded their bond), and admitting that she has now lost faith in him. Therefore, she's saying that when the time comes for the final clash between Naruto and Sasuke, she will not get involved, trusting that both of them will decide how their battle ends.

Now, this DOES NOT mean that Sakura is going to remain on the sidelines like some 'cheerleader'. In fact, I very much believe that she will be one of the most prominant figures in the conflicts and skirmishes to come as the war gets under way and develops, along with her interactions with other members of the Alliance. So no, I don't think anyone here should be worrying about Sakura not living up to her role as main heroine.

[jason voorhees]

@ Miss Soupy and Toasty Warrior - To be honest, I think there's a misconception in regards to Sakura's statement of 'believing in both Naruto and Sasuke'. In my mind, what her words meant was that she had realised that she would never be able to reach Sasuke through either words or actions (in a sense recognising how little Sasuke regarded their bond), and admitting that she has now lost faith in him. Therefore, she's saying that when the time comes for the final clash between Naruto and Sasuke, she will not get involved, trusting that both of them will decide how their battle ends.

Now, this DOES NOT mean that Sakura is going to remain on the sidelines like some 'cheerleader'. In fact, I very much believe that she will be one of the most prominant figures in the conflicts and skirmishes to come as the war gets under way and develops, along with her interactions with other members of the Alliance. So no, I don't think anyone here should be worrying about Sakura not living up to her role as main heroine.

i am going to agree with Quinny52@ i dont belive sakura is going to remain on the sidelines she is a medical ninja as well she is bond to be doing som heroic things in her own way.

Clue 1 the readers are meant to pick up on- Who does Sakura instinctively act to protect several times in moments she sees and that are profoundly dangerous, with nary a thought of how she was endangering her own life to do so- not Sasuke, Naruto.

Clue 2- Who's personality does hers mirror, to the point it's commented several times how much in synch their personalities are? Her's and Naruto. Remember, in Japan having hearts and minds in synch is the ideal, that includes in romance.

never would have thought of that naruto is the first manga i have read im normily a anima person.

Edited by hypno toad, 21 September 2010 - 04:01 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

No he doesn't. It's been really obvious since chapter 3 if you know the tsundere girl shonen romantic storyline. Kishimoto showed in the typical fashion way back in chapter 5 that Sakura's feelings for Naruto were already running deeper than her feelings for Sasuke. Subconsciously Sakura fell for Naruto in chapter 5.

No, I don't think so. She didn't really know Naruto in ch. 5. She begins to grow more and more fondness for Naruto during the entire manga. She can't 'subconsciously' fall for a person that she doesn't quite understand yet. Isn't that what is wrong with SS to begin with? Saying she just fell for him then doesn't really give the pairing much justice, imo. It makes it look as shallow as her love-at-first-sight feelings for Sasuke.

Clue 1 the readers are meant to pick up on- Who does Sakura instinctively act to protect several times in moments she sees and that are profoundly dangerous, with nary a thought of how she was endangering her own life to do so- not Sasuke, Naruto.

She does this for Sasuke and Naruto both, because they are her teammates. She also thought Naruto was too stupid to be able to protect himself, unlike Sasuke who was a prodigy.

Clue 2- Who's personality does hers mirror, to the point it's commented several times how much in synch their personalities are? Her's and Naruto. Remember, in Japan having hearts and minds in synch is the ideal, that includes in romance.

I'm not denying that they have similar personalities. They do, which is exactly why Sakura is also linked to Kushina. Similar personalities is a positive for the pairing, but it does not mean that the pairing isn't ambiguous. There are many other factors that make it so.

Both these show up way back early on in part 1. Thus even by chapter 5 it would be 100% clear to those that know shonen romantic plotlines that Naruto and Sakura already had a mutual and true romantic bond, even if it was subconscious on Sakura's part (a very common trope for the tsundere girl romance in shonen manga- except Kishimoto shows his hand right away, where the usual thing is to hide this for a while with the tsundere girl.

Just because it is a typical trope that doesn't mean Kishimoto should be expected or has to do it. I feel like that is a pretty weak argument. It's like trying to relate all shounen to DBZ. Kishi has added other pairings and other elements so that no pairing is 'bullet proof'. I think NaruSaku is more likely to happen than the other pairings. But given Kishis track record of wrecking a lot of what he did in part I, I wouldn't say it is 100%.

As I said he doesn't troll when it comes to characters who develop mutual romantic feelings where the female is a tsundere type- he doesn't with Jiraiya and Tsunade, he doesn't do it with Minato and Kushina, and he doesn't with Naruto and Sakura. Some readers mistake Kishimoto's character development with so called trolling. Every moment that some readers complained of trolling or pairing ambiguousness Kishimoto eventually made it even more overtly obvious that it was actually another step toward bring Naruto and Sakura together outright.

I don't think Sakura's confession counts as something that makes the pairing less ambiguous. Most people contend that it made the pairing more complicated. I know that you disagree, but that isn't what most people have read. The fact that there can be multiple interpretations of the same material is more proof of how Kishimoto makes things ambiguous.

@Quinny

To be honest, I think there's a misconception in regards to Sakura's statement of 'believing in both Naruto and Sasuke'. In my mind, what her words meant was that she had realised that she would never be able to reach Sasuke through either words or actions (in a sense recognising how little Sasuke regarded their bond), and admitting that she has now lost faith in him. Therefore, she's saying that when the time comes for the final clash between Naruto and Sasuke, she will not get involved, trusting that both of them will decide how their battle ends.

She gave up, which Sakura is not a quitter. That is not normally how Kishimoto writes her. That's why it was so OOC for her to say that. He could have had her say something much more heroine like than that. It was like his way of pushing her to the side so the big boys could have their fight. >.>

Now, this DOES NOT mean that Sakura is going to remain on the sidelines like some 'cheerleader'. In fact, I very much believe that she will be one of the most prominant figures in the conflicts and skirmishes to come as the war gets under way and develops, along with her interactions with other members of the Alliance. So no, I don't think anyone here should be worrying about Sakura not living up to her role as main heroine.

My interpretation didn't have Sakura doing nothing for the rest of the manga. Once again, my problem was her doing nothing when it comes to team 7. Is team 7 no longer important? She shouldn't be just believing in them, she should be doing whatever it takes to help Naruto. The right way this time.

[Grace]

As I said he doesn't troll when it comes to characters who develop mutual romantic feelings where the female is a tsundere type- he doesn't with Jiraiya and Tsunade, he doesn't do it with Minato and Kushina, and he doesn't with Naruto and Sakura. Some readers mistake Kishimoto's character development with so called trolling. Every moment that some readers complained of trolling or pairing ambiguousness Kishimoto eventually made it even more overtly obvious that it was actually another step toward bring Naruto and Sakura together outright.

With Jiraiya and Tsunade, who was there to troll? The characters' possible romance wasn't a huge aspect of their involvement in the plot, and neither of the characters were even pushing for a relationship; they'd both sort of passed on the idea of getting together or acting on their feelings. The only thing I could maybe call trolling is when Tsunade finally gave him the go-ahead before he went off to die, but even then we all knew nothing was gonna happen in their favor.

Minato and Kushina: why would he troll with these two? They're introduced as a married couple that have produced a child, and what we know of their childhood relationship is limited to what fits in the context of the plot--there's neither a need or an option available for trolling with them.

Just because the females in these couples happen to have been tsunderes like Sakura doesn't mean that the treatment they received from Kishimoto dictates how he'll handle Sakura herself. As for the relationship between Naruto and Sakura being trolled or ambiguous, just saying that anyone familiar with tsundere romantic plotlines can see it coming from a mile away doesn't mean a whole lot, y'know? It's like saying, "Anyone familiar with Shakespearean tragedy can see the ending of Othello by the end of the first act."; that doesn't mean the ending can't be or isn't a surprise for every other reader. *shrug* If you consider that not everyone (or perhaps, most of the people) reading Naruto is familiar with tsundere romances, then the pairings have been rather ambiguous.

Also....isn't simply pegging NaruSaku as an open-closed case of shounen-tsundere-romance kind of glazing over the pairing's unique nuances? Besides, haven't you said before that you don't feel Sakura is like the typical tsundere female as they've come to be in most shounen these days--if she truly stands out from the pattern as you've mentioned then I'd imagine it can be said that her relationships do as well. *shrug*

[jason voorhees]

Besides, haven't you said before that you don't feel Sakura is like the typical tsundere female as they've come to be in most shounen these days--if she truly stands out from the pattern as you've mentioned then I'd imagine it can be said that her relationships do as well. *shrug*
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every time she has pointed out a tsundere falls into the same cadigory thow some are more tsundere than others depending on the writer as well.Also depending on if the person reading the manga belives in kish an sakura was not lieing in her conffeshon is what makes the diffrince i know alot of people dont belive it as is there problem altogether.

[Grace]

every time she has pointed out a tsundere falls into the same cadigory thow some are more tsundere than others depending on the writer as well.

My point, though, was that she's mentioned before that she feels Sakura's type of tsundere is a throwback to the older (original?) version--her favorite example of comparison being the female protagonist of Rose of Versailles. The shounen-tsundere-romance that she insists is easy to spot, and is often followed, seems to apply more to the current and more exaggerated tsundere character; I'm just pointing out that it seems inconsistent to me to say that NaruSaku is a typical, obvious, and unambiguous pairing because it follows the average tsundere-romantic-plot despite Sakura not being an average tsundere. *shrug*

Also depending on if the person reading the manga belives in kish an sakura was not lieing in her conffeshon is what makes the diffrince i know alot of people dont belive it as is there problem altogether.

(I'm not sure what you're addressing here... I'm going to assume you're talking about the pairing remaining ambiguous to readers?)
Not sure what believing in Kishi has to do with anything....but I'm guessing you mean that it depends on whether or not someone believes that Kishi intended for Sakura's confession to be entirely honest? If that's what you're saying, then yes. Of course it depends on your take on her confession: if you believe she was completely honest, then Kishi's intentions with the pairings remain unambiguous to you. The crux of it all is that most people did not believe her, though, and saw the whole thing as a huge curve-ball thrown into the field to make the pairings seem all the more unclear.


.....I realize that last paragraph seems sort of unclear; I think I'm failing to grasp exactly what we're supposed to be discussing here. Are we just trying to work out that the ambiguity of the pairings depends entirely on the personal view of each reader? 'Cause if that's the case then I can only say, "Duh." XD;;

[Miss Soupy]

The crux of it all is that most people did not believe her, though, and saw the whole thing as a huge curve-ball thrown into the field to make the pairings seem all the more unclear.

I have to agree. The fact that the majority of people have serious doubts about Sakura's feelings during the confession leads you to either think that 1) Kishi is a sucky/unclear/ambiguous writer for making so many people doubt it, or 2) that those people in the minority who think she was telling the complete truth have to be wrong about it.

[jason voorhees]

or people ignore whats already in front of them. Let us wait till then we shall see.

[Miss Soupy]

^ it's up to the author to make it as clear as he wants. Obviously it is not meant to be clear if most people don't find it so. For the second part, obviously we have to wait.

[crazyefra]

You forgot to put, that the hate for Sakura by the fandom is also a proof of why many people say she was lying

[jason voorhees]

Obviously it is not meant to be clear if most people don't find it so

but most dont read much manga there are falts to that thought.

You forgot to put, that the hate for Sakura by the fandom is also a proof of why many people say she was lying

pritty much so

Edited by hypno toad, 22 September 2010 - 10:02 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

You shouldn't have to read other manga to understand this specific story. What is the point of that? Kishi is writing his own story the way he wants to. Reading other stories shouldn't help you understand this one, but instead reading Naruto should reveal certain things he wishes to reveal.

[jason voorhees]

You shouldn't have to read other manga to understand this specific story. What is the point of that? Kishi is writing his own story the way he wants to. Reading other stories shouldn't help you understand this one, but instead reading Naruto should reveal certain things he wishes to reveal.

To a point i agree each writer goes the way the writer wants. But also each plotline reaches the same destinashen with shonon im going to say most of the time i have never seen any or herd of any ,an it changes depending on the manga type ,shoujo exs. i belive thats the jist.

but like i said we dont have to agree i jest stick to what i belive im not forceing anyone to agree jest like you the same as you.

Edited by hypno toad, 22 September 2010 - 10:24 PM.