1876 replies to this topic

[Nate River]

Also, Saudi Arabia and Cuba are still members. Pakistan's term just expired. China is also on it as one of the Five permanent members.

Yeah, and the 2010 recipient of the Noble Peace Prize, Lui Xiaobo, could not be reached for comment on China's membership. Un Council on Human Rights needs to be disbanded. It's such a disgrace.

[ciardha]

Actually them being on that meant they had to allow some information on human rights to come through- bringing about one foundation for the pro democracy movements in those countries. My bet is that's why the democratic countries opened up that and other counsels.

[Insurrection]

Actually them being on that meant they had to allow some information on human rights to come through- bringing about one foundation for the pro democracy movements in those countries. My bet is that's why the democratic countries opened up that and other counsels.

Actually it's just the opposite reason.

http://www.reuters.c...E4BB67820081212

The group is majority controlled by African and Islamic bloc nations along with China and Russia in order to deflect blame of their own abuses. It's why Israel is always getting blamed and heavily by the group and they never discussed Darfur, North Korea, Zimbabwe or Tibet. It's also why we stopped seeking a seat until Obama brought us back. Ban Ki-Moon, the actual leader of the UN has criticized them repeatedly for their ineffectiveness.

Edited by Insurrection, 09 March 2011 - 05:51 AM.

[Nate River]

Actually it's just the opposite reason.

http://www.reuters.c...E4BB67820081212

The group is majority controlled by African and Islamic bloc nations along with China and Russia in order to deflect blame of their own abuses. It's why Israel is always getting blamed and heavily by the group and they never discussed Darfur, North Korea, Zimbabwe or Tibet. It's also why we stopped seeking a seat until Obama brought us back. Ban Ki-Moon, the actual leader of the UN has criticized them repeatedly for their ineffectiveness.

There has been two versions of the Panel. The first was dissolved in 2006 because of well....because of the kind behavior you describe above. It's credibility was so low even Koffi Anon was forced to admit it. The current counsel hasn't fared much better. Last year they let the likes of North Korea, Iran, Nicaragua, Venzuela and Cuba lecture Obama on civil rights. Yeah. Three South American dictatorships, an infamous human rights abuser who shot at its own people when they protested a fixed election, and the biggest hell hole on the planet getting a forum to lecture others about civil while deflecting blame from themselves.

Money well spent.

[Insurrection]

THIS IS BREAKING NEWS: ANTI-UNION BILL PASSES IN WISCONSIN SENATE WITH NO DEMS PRESENT

Edited by Insurrection, 10 March 2011 - 12:52 AM.

[Greed-Sama]

THIS IS BREAKING NEWS: ANTI-UNION BILL PASSES IN WISCONSIN SENATE WITH NO DEMS PRESENT

I find this pretty low. The comments on the article are pretty much right. If you can't compromise, change the rules. Ugh. Republicans are just too crazy right now.

[catsi563]

not just change the rules, break them and the law entirely.

Not only that they exposed themselves as liars. The entire point of this nonsense has been about balancing the budget supposedly. But they separated the union busting part of it from the budget because the committee they used to pass it could not vote on a fiscal issue.

We all knew the union busitng part of it had nothing to do with balancing the budget and now its been exposed as exactly that.

add in that they broke the law and rules of the senate apparaeantly by failing to provide sufficent advanced notice and by questionable tactics in the house of representatives as well and you have a recipe for disaster politically.

[Nate River]

not just change the rules, break them and the law entirely.

Not only that they exposed themselves as liars. The entire point of this nonsense has been about balancing the budget supposedly. But they separated the union busting part of it from the budget because the committee they used to pass it could not vote on a fiscal issue.

We all knew the union busitng part of it had nothing to do with balancing the budget and now its been exposed as exactly that.

add in that they broke the law and rules of the senate apparaeantly by failing to provide sufficent advanced notice and by questionable tactics in the house of representatives as well and you have a recipe for disaster politically.

So...let's see: Dems flee state to deny quorum on a vote they will lose and basically freeze the process; Republicans the bill from the general budget so to end impasse the Democrats caused when they fled the state. Therefore, this proves that it really wasn't about the budget it despite the fact that it would have remained part of said budget bill and been voted on by the full Senate but for Dems hauling ass from Wisconsin and refusing to return.

To say THIS move proves they are lying about it being about the budget is having your cake and eating it too.

You'd be better served trying to make the case that it has nothing to do with the budget by claiming that union pensions, wages, benefits etc. weren't in trouble, wouldn't be, wouldn't be a problem for the State to pay and ultimately will not solve the budget problem.

I find this pretty low. The comments on the article are pretty much right. If you can't compromise, change the rules. Ugh. Republicans are just too crazy right now.

I find leaving the state to prevent a vote you know you will lose to be pretty low.

[ciardha]

not just change the rules, break them and the law entirely.

Not only that they exposed themselves as liars. The entire point of this nonsense has been about balancing the budget supposedly. But they separated the union busting part of it from the budget because the committee they used to pass it could not vote on a fiscal issue.

We all knew the union busting part of it had nothing to do with balancing the budget and now its been exposed as exactly that.

add in that they broke the law and rules of the senate apparently by failing to provide sufficient advanced notice and by questionable tactics in the house of representatives as well and you have a recipe for disaster politically.

Breaking news- the even the Mayor of Madison has joined the protest against the union busting governor and committee. Police opened the doors to the capitol and allowed protesters to pack the building, bring in food, water and bedding. They are refusing to block any protesters entry. The firefighters are circling the building running sirens in union solidarity, protests planned all around the US Friday and Saturday....

http://www.correntew...hts_anyway#more

[catsi563]

All the dems did was basically use a fillibuster, delayinga vote to force debate on an issue that was being rammed through with no debate whatsoever.

What the republcians did was violate State law and senate procedures in a manner that not only stinks of bad faith but outright hypocracy. if the dems had done this same thing the republicans would be howling for blood and you knwo they would. theyd be calls from rush and the like for armed revolution and their immeidate ouster.

Walker has crossed the line here and he knows it. This bill goes beyond unions too. it literally allows Walker and company to disband local city governments at will. this is going to bite them in the arse and were going to pay the price.

And the union part of the bill was NEVER about the budget.

but walker has claimed all along that, THAT was precisely what it was about. Im using his own words here. Walker has claimed from day one that they state was broke and the only way to fix it was to use this bill with tis union busting parts.

now he proves along with senate republicans that the whole thing was a lie. they could have done it separately and still had a chance to actually debate it. Now itll be turned over on apeal and no one wins.

Edited by catsi563, 10 March 2011 - 11:10 AM.

[Sakura Blossoms]

Bring on 2012. Republicans are showing their true colours to the people of America with their declared-war on working-class Americans, and causing thousands of people in different states to protest against them. Republicans are going to get the boot if they continue on like this, and it will be by their own doing:

Indiana

Wisconsin

[Nate River]

All the dems did was basically use a fillibuster, delayinga vote to force debate on an issue that was being rammed through with no debate whatsoever.

I knew you'd say that.

Force a debate? Bull, they were avoiding a vote the knew they would lose.

First, I'll remember you said that. When Republicans are in the minority anyway and a vote comes up for a bill they don't like I'll encourage them to leave the state until the majority Dems let them have their way. If you whine it'll be hypocritical. Actually I wont though. I deplore the tactic and I won't support when they do it.

Second, If Wisconsin Senate had an actual filibuster rule and they had made use it that would have been fine and completely acceptable tactic. In an actual filibuster the Senators actually show up and the detention of State legislatures is required to break it. They are a part of Senate rules in the federal government and have been for sometime. The rule can be removed by a vote and does not require anybody be dentained in the process. Without a quorum you cannot even conduct a vote. Removal of the filibuster would, in effect, change the requirement from 60 to 50. Moreover, the Dems/Repub could easily go back to the practice of them actually having to debate the bill to death, which they don't right now.

Removing the quorum requirements would have far more significant consequnces. Without them, I could walk in hold a one man vote and it would pass. Would you want a Senate where say........Rand Paul could walk into Congress by himself and hold a vote or one where a minority sneak in, lock the doors, and hold a vote without anyone from the majority party present. It would be a majority of those present after all.

Finally, a filibuster they actually can and do hold a vote. I can't think of the last one that would have as a consequence the possible detention of legislatures by state law enforcement.

hat the republcians did was violate State law and senate procedures in a manner that not only stinks of bad faith but outright hypocracy. if the dems had done this same thing the republicans would be howling for blood and you knwo they would. theyd be calls from rush and the like for armed revolution and their immeidate ouster.

Yeah, they been unhappy and complained about it, no doubt. They were unahppy when Federal Democrats were plopping 1,000-2,000 pages bills then holding votes before people could read them (Stimulus! and "We have to pass the bill, so we can know what's in it").

Of course, I can't recall the last time they the feld jurisdiction to avoid that result and set as a condition of their return that they get their way on the issue.

If we're going to play if a republican did this game then let's be fair. If Republicans ran you know you'd be the first in line decrying the tactic. Dems would have been right on board and would have used the procedure the Republicans just used while "howling for blood." And you know it, too. I think most of thread would have been right along with you.

Walker has crossed the line here and he knows it. This bill goes beyond unions too. it literally allows Walker and company to disband local city governments at will. this is going to bite them in the arse and were going to pay the price.

It very well might. This is what you do when you when you don't like what the current government is doing. You vote them out at election time and propose a law reinstating them. If the Republicans were cramming it down vote no, protest, and through the "bums" out come election time.

And the union part of the bill was NEVER about the budget.

but walker has claimed all along that, THAT was precisely what it was about. Im using his own words here. Walker has claimed from day one that they state was broke and the only way to fix it was to use this bill with tis union busting parts.

now he proves along with senate republicans that the whole thing was a lie. they could have done it separately and still had a chance to actually debate it. Now itll be turned over on apeal and no one wins.

Again. Removed from Budget bill because Dems who hauled ass and refused to return, it remains in said bill if they don't haul ass and vote on it. I don't see how this tactic proves it's not about the budget. As I said, if you want to argue the point you have better odds looking to the Budget itself. I would be more receptive if they had employed this immeidately after the feld and if Walker had made no counterproposals (which leaked emails) indicate he did.

It might be, but only because they may not be able to make the standard on the 24 hour notice. Outside of the procesure already existed within Wisconsin law.

If I were them I had the Assembly vote again give the 24 hour notice and then use the procedure again if Dems still haven't returned.

[Greed-Sama]

Bring on 2012. Republicans are showing their true colours to the people of America with their declared-war on working-class Americans, and causing thousands of people in different states to protest against them. Republicans are going to get the boot if they continue on like this, and it will be by their own doing:

Indiana

Wisconsin

And democrats are scaring the hell out of people with the way the economy is getting worse. Housing market readjusted itself, but that's really about it. I would like to see a strong independent party take control and get rid of this partisan bull that causes the crap which happened in WI.

[Chivalrysae]

I'm kind of on the fence on this topic. I love the concept of unions and protecting the rights of the working class, but I think some unions have taken advantage of the system put in place for them. I've seen some of the union benefits from the big detroit automakers from before the recession and they're ridiculous. Auto Worker Benefits Not all unions are like this, but there needs to be a balance between what is right for the employee and what is right for the business and economy. I think there needs to be a check and balance to make sure neither side is taken advantage of.

After reading about what the automaker's had agreed to do with their unions I could not fathom how companies would sign up for those kind of deals. Funding early retirement, funding extended unemployment and funding retiree healthcare. That's something I know I wouldn't get through my job, and I think I'm compensated pretty fairly. Maybe there should be third party that can compare the salary and benefits with other corporations to determine if concessions are fair via some sort of arbitration. I don't want companies stripping all benefits and privilidges from workers, but I don't want to see the workers being over compensated at the expense of a company being viable in the long term.

[catsi563]

Force a debate? Bull, they were avoiding a vote the knew they would lose.

Your wrong the bill was not being debated it was shoved through the house with no debate and walker standing before press conference after press conference stating emphatically and I quote ""This is not up for debate!!""

You are utterly and completely wrong Nate.

What in the Hell do Union bargaining rights have to do with balancing the budget????

NOTHING absolutley nothing. So why then has walker stated time and again that balancing the budget has EVERYTHING to do with it.

because hes a lieing fraud. He knew that 3 of his own republcians were wavering on the issue which public polls clearly show the people of wisconsin were against by a 2/3rds majority.

Thats why they used this tactic to force feed this past the senate. They used a committee whose purpose was to reconcile differences in a bill before a vote. Instead they just used the committee as the vote calling role and not even bothering to hear counter arguments.

When I say all in favor say AYE and then I say AYE and call the vote a winner then yes thats wrong. and That is exactly what the republicans did.

they could have had the dems back at anytime but left no room for debate in this issue.

it wasnt just a matter that the they were gonna lose the vote. THey were going to have a bill shoved down their throats with no chance to debate it or counter it.

Walker made no counter proposals at all until after they left and the republicans were on the verge of breaking.

and then he goes and pulls this underhanded bullcrap.

And to your point they will have to do this again. The republicans have violated State law and senate procedures with this. The Court will strike it down and when they do theyll have to go through this whole routine again, when walker could have had a real debate which he knows hed lose, and followed the real vote.

It very well might. This is what you do when you when you don't like what the current government is doing. You vote them out at election time and propose a law reinstating them. If the Republicans were cramming it down vote no, protest, and through the "bums" out come election time.

Nate nate nate

you again have missed the point entirely. this is not about removing via elections. This law means walker and company can walk into your town and tell your mayor, city counsel and police chief and the like. "Go home your fired."

no new elections held, they cna just walk in and summarily disband your towns government AT WILL. Thats a major violation of our constitutional rights. WE the people can disband a local government somehting Walkers going to find out promptly.

But no governor has the power to just walk in and summarily dismiss a town or cities government without due process or claling an election. Thats the power walkers given himself with this bill.

@ Chivalrysae

Yes I agree that sometimes the way we bargain with Unions and possibly some limits on what workers can ask for should be put up for some debate and scrutiny.

The Unions have made mistakes in the past with overreaching .Railroad workers made this mistake back a ways when the trains were switching over from coal to diesel engines. These engines required less effort and work to maintain on long runs then the old steam locos did. The rail workers over did it on negotiations asking for way to much compensation for a job that required half the effort it used to and it cost them badly.

But this has gone way over the line. The repubs in this issue have used broad based generilzations about public sector employees comparing them to private sector employeees with inaccurate and sometime blatantly false comparisons and out right lies.

The notion they use of a private sector emplyee making less then a publci sector employee is completely baseless and factually incorrect. it doesnt compare education, training, and the actual positions in question instead jsut using broad numbers.

as an example compare a private plumber to a VA employee. the VA employee makes more if you just take a broad over view.

But if you look closer you see why they do. The VA employee most likely is a doctor who has had more training and education then a plumber and thus a doctor will make more money.

But to use this as a comparison to say that ALL public sector employees do this is wrong. The majority of public sector employees are fire fighters, police, teachers and administrative employees all of whom make far less then they should. or in certain cases make less then public sector couterparts.

And thats the cruxt of the argument and one of the things that realy upsets me. The calling of these public sector employees the so called new elite.

go ask one of your teachers or a police officer or a fire fighter if they're living high on the hog next chance you get. remember these are the ""New elite"" as the republicans refer to them. the people who are supposedly sucking the life blood of the nation down the tubes to profit their extravagant lifestyles according to republicans.

dont know about you but I have yet to see a teacher ridinga round in a mercedes benz or lviing in a 6 bedroom mansion.

[Chivalrysae]

Catsi, I agree with you that the bill is not the solution. No one part of govt should hold complete control over the voices of the many. That's why unions were first put into place. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's why capitalism and socialism aren't perfect, there's always the influence of human corruption at all levels. I just think there should be some kind of check and balance on either side.

And my sister's husband is a teacher, so I get to hear about some of the stuff that goes on in the school districts like merit pays, and test scores determining how much funding they get. Like one, I don't agree with all the "test prep" that they do with kids. They teach them how to take a test rather than spending the extra time to teach them how to apply the knowledge they learn in class. It's not the teacher's fault, it's the system that was put in place. Some of my teacher friends hate having to do that to their students, but in order for their schools to get proper funding, they're kinda stuck. And testing is the only way school can be measure by the state as successful or not in implementing a curriculum. Crazy stuff.

[Strangelove]

That is why, i don't vote for democrats, instead of staying and fighting for the rights of they're people, they flee with they're tails between they're legs.

[catsi563]

What do you think they were doing for the last 2 weeks strange? sipping pina coladas?

theyve been fighting to get that part of the bill removed so that they could have a proper debate on the issue instead of having the govenor say this is how its going to be and no one else can say anything about it.

Hell walker even got what he wanted prior to the vote when Unions stated their willingness to agree to the cuts and extra money sent to their pensions. it was only after walker isnsited that that wasnt enough and that the bill would go on as is that they walked out.

theyve held talks with more moderate republcians 3 of whom were going to pull out of the vote if it wasnt removed untill this bullcrap was pulled.

Now they are coming back to wisconsin and they are going to fight walkers agenda in ways he wouldnt have to face if hed just compromised on the legislation in the first place.

Hell the indications are that he could have had the restrictions on public sector unions he wanted if hed removed that part from bill and debated it openly with democrats and union leaders earlier. instead he insisted no debate take place and that the union parts were non negotiable.


thats why the dems left. Edict firmly in place walker basically told them nothing you do matters nothing you say matters this is done and its my way or no way.

[Sakura Blossoms]

That is why, i don't vote for democrats, instead of staying and fighting for the rights of they're people, they flee with they're tails between they're legs.

With their tails between their legs? Do you even understand the proper meaning of that phrase? 'With their tails between their legs' means that one fled in shame. The Democrats (while I don't totally agree with them leaving) didn't 'flee with tails between their legs'. They left to make a stand and a statement. To try to make the Republican governor stop and hopefully take stock of what he was doing, and actually try to work out a more reasonable solution. Obviously it didn't work as he railroaded and rammed this bill through no matter the cost to the civilians he's supposed to be looking out for livelihoods.

[catsi563]

I do need to make one edit. sometimes I get so passionate about an argument that i mix up my facts a little.

The wisconsin union busting bill does not allow Walker to come in and eliminate local governments. thats the Ohio bill that does that and thats a whole other bag of pissed off badgers.

So my bad on the mistake and correction noted.