192 replies to this topic

[RedDelicious]

But the difference is that when Naruto and Gaara were shown they had a choice they took it. Sasuke has been shown...

I wasn't trying to imply that Sasuke deserved another chance, just that Naruto will offer it to him anyways. That is why Naruto is a hero (that frustrates us when he is being a blockhead).

If Kishi is aiming for a SasuSaku pairing, he needs to atleast give an explanaition as to what exactly about Sasuke does she love?

My main qualm like before is Sakura's confession, Did she mean it or not?

The entire village (up to recently) considered Sasuke the prize pupil, the big sports hero, and the popular rock star, all wrapped into one. Think about the chunin exam finals, where most people going into it didn't care about any fight other than Sasuke (versus some other guy from Sand). Of course the girls are going to crush on him, despite him being a big jerk.

As for Sakura's confession, of course she meant it. She had to say it under less than ideal conditions, or risk not saying it at all.

Sakura most the time acts more like a woman in her mid-late 20's, Naruto has been a bit more teenish but since his Sage training he's also been coming across part of the time more like someone in their mid-late 20's, still less domonantly so than Sakura though.

But they have been through more experiences than most teens, so there would be a mixture of maturity and cluelessness. (Which some people seem to complain about the manga, go figure.) I'm thinking back to the Land of Waves arc, Team 7 had a lot more innocence/childishness before dealing with Zabuza.

I think the thing that may be lost here a bit is that quite a few of the readers are young. Even some adults aren't completely aware of what love is or how it works, so the teen audience sure isn't going to.

Good point. Some of the complaints, that Kishi can't write, seem to be when Kishi makes the situation complicated instead of simplistic.

Giles: What do you want me to say?
Buffy: Lie to me.
Giles: Yes. It's terribly simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true. The bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies and... everybody lives happily ever after.
Buffy: Liar.

[Broken Figurine]

I think the thing that may be lost here a bit is that quite a few of the readers are young. Even some adults aren't completely aware of what love is or how it works, so the teen audience sure isn't going to. If anything, that's something in Naruto's favor; it's two leads are so mature for their age that they may as well be adults (well, except for when Naruto BAAAAAAAW's over Sasuke). But that doesn't mean that everyone who reads it is going to have the experience in life to pick up on these things.

You can have it on the other side where those who are older tend to look too deeply into things because they feel they have better insight into a story than younger readers do. Sometimes inserting your own life experience is just a justification as to why you feel this and that should be this certain way. I recall talking to my mother about the romance in Harry Potter, and I kept repeating that though she has had similar situations happen, story-wise there was no preparation, no evidence to convince me why such and such happened. We can speculate the psychology, the hidden meanings, but while I do grant (some) older readers have a more sophisticated way of reading and may bring interesting things to the discussion, age is not a large factor in understanding what the author is trying to get across. In fact, given these are teenagers, you would think teens would understand and identify with those crushes, intense moods, etc.

Naruto and Sakura are in an extreme situation where surely they must be more mature than your average teen. I hope many of us have never had to fight for our lives, our friends, and be in a position where war is a constant way of life. Now, while they may be more mature, there are problems I have in some aspects of characterization. For one, Sakura's love toward Sasuke. It is hard for me to say that Sai doesn't know what he is talking about. Unless Kishimoto is trying to mislead his readers, which is a good possibility, I am assuming that Sakura is in fact going off to kill Sasuke--the one whom she loves--and her confession was a cover, not the truth. I beg the question why. I don't think that one bench scene has such weight as other people mention; one scene alone cannot make a person fall in love so deeply, especially not when all other moments have been against it. She declared her love and was shot down, and even though she has been hearing about everything Sasuke is doing, and has been growing closer to Naruto, her heart still pines for the Uchiha (so it is implied). Fiction needs more explanation than fact; I find if you had the choice to make your character love this person, there needs to be something backing it up. Even in reality, people who fall in love without reason, without being cared for in return I consider infatuated. Sasuke may have acted as a teammate, but from what we've seen in the manga Naruto has more reason to be chasing after Sasuke than Sakura ever did.

I'm proud that she is, at least, putting aside these feelings and taking action to stop him. While I consider it a suicide mission to be going at it alone (I can't see her winning against him), it does show sacrifice. I have always been bothered about how these characters cling to Sasuke and not see reason. This is a case of blindness verses insight; this person they know is changing so obviously yet they continued to spend a large portion of the manga focused on him instead of paying attention to the full picture. At this point there is little substance in their bond, and similarly little substance in Sakura's love for him. I value, and continue to believe and value, in NaruSaku's relationship because of all the substance and development, friendship or otherwise. I'm glad Naruto is waking up because I can't believe he didn't consider one key aspect; she's going to fight Sasuke alone! Am I the only one thinking that is, umm, a very dangerous thing? Naruto is all "What?! How can she?! She loves him!" but not so much "She can't do something like that alone! She'll die!" Seriously, must Sasuke hold priority over EVERYTHING?

-siiigh-

Beyond that, I'm not angry with Sakura's decision, only upset because I do not see the evidence to support this unconditional love. I may be only seventeen, but I know love to be something deeper than what I've seen between Sasuke and Sakura. I was even trying to wrap my head around why Hinata "loves" Naruto in that romantic sort of way, when they have not interacted significantly, but at least she loves him for his good qualities--sort of how we feel we fall in love with influential people we admire. Sakura on the other hand... Is in love and/or pining over a man who wants to destroy everything she holds oh so dear, and whose life accomplishment was to kill his brother. Moar evidence, plz, k thx.

[Hak]

In my point of view I see as that when younger Sakura built her whole selfconfidency around Sasuke. She was tormented by her peers before Ino began to build her confidence and when the mass started to move towards Sasuke she wen't along. Where as Ino was trained by her parents/father along the way and she had the narrow but still drive to become a ninja because at least her father was one and likely further towards her ancestors also, she had something else to look for. Meanwhile when Sakuras prince charming left her and whole Konoha behind, she fell to an empty floor. Then Naruto gives new reason to improve herself at bringing Sasuke back home. Now I see this is the first time Sakura has a reason (THE right in my and I guess in all of our point of view) to live that doesn't circle around Sasuke but it isin protecting people who she loves! There was while back speeches about Sakura arc, where she gets her power up and maturing point and I see that this is the moment where it starts. I really don't see a power up coming but I see this as the real turning poin for Sakura as a character where she begins to build HER own legend!

[ciardha]

, Sakura's love toward Sasuke. It is hard for me to say that Sai doesn't know what he is talking about. Unless Kishimoto is trying to mislead his readers, which is a good possibility, I am assuming that Sakura is in fact going off to kill Sasuke--the one whom she loves--and her confession was a cover, not the truth. I beg the question why. I don't think that one bench scene has such weight as other people mention; one scene alone cannot make a person fall in love so deeply, especially not when all other moments have been against it. She declared her love and was shot down, and even though she has been hearing about everything Sasuke is doing, and has been growing closer to Naruto, her heart still pines for the Uchiha (so it is implied).

No, you are forgetting Sai's words- Sakura has moved on from Sasuke and chosen you. Her thoughts were all about you. She doesn't "pine for" Sasuke, she still has feelings for her memory of the boy she knew, but this monster he's become that threatens Naruto and everyone elses lives is like a rabid dog that has to be put down. Only someone that cares for him should do it, something done out of love not vengence.

Her feelings of love is far stronger for Naruto, and she knows Naruto's love for Sasuke has been blinding him to this choice too. She knows it's up to either her or Naruto, and she knew Naruto wouldn't plus she has vowed not to put the burden on him anymore, she's taken it on herself.

[Myth]

well ı feel better now hey take a look at this video that guy is realy made some perfect points about 474.

http://www.youtube.c...wilightLink20xx

[Broken Figurine]

No, you are forgetting Sai's words- Sakura has moved on from Sasuke and chosen you. Her thoughts were all about you. She doesn't "pine for" Sasuke, she still has feelings for her memory of the boy she knew, but this monster he's become that threatens Naruto and everyone elses lives is like a rabid dog that has to be put down. Only someone that cares for him should do it, something done out of love not vengence.

Her feelings of love is far stronger for Naruto, and she knows Naruto's love for Sasuke has been blinding him to this choice too. She knows it's up to either her or Naruto, and she knew Naruto wouldn't plus she has vowed not to put the burden on him anymore, she's taken it on herself.

I just reread it again, and I don't see where her says she's moved on from Sasuke.

"No way... She can't... She loves Sasuke so much..."

"That's why."

"She wants to save him from a life of evil because she loves him"
"I think she's prepared to do whatever it takes, even if it means..."
"Killing the one she loves"

The only thing that would resemble "chosen you" would be...

"She thought she'd lessen your burden by giving up on Sasuke and confessing her love for you."

That comes before what was said above and, again, he's mentioning how her "love" for Naruto is to lessen his burden. I don't know which version says "chosen you" because either way, the words above imply too much. I don't want to argue for it, but it really does seem like she loves him. Even with the images associated as Sai talks about it. She's looking at him with a blush, then smiling and laughing... She does pine for Sasuke in my eyes because she still 'loves him'. I don't argue against her decision, she wants to go after Sasuke because he's been consumed by darkness. My point was that I see no reason as to why she loved him so much in the first place. I don't like it when I'm just supposed to accept someone is in love with someone, when there is little supporting why.

[NaruSaku93]

that video basically summed up the main points everyone was trying to make in this thread. i agree with this person that naruto needs to grow up. in the chapter, the shattered image of team 7 was a wake up call for naruto that they cannot be reunited again. sasuke has chosen the path of darkness and nothing can persuade him to come back.

naruto was blinded by the bonds he had with sasuke and after the talk with sai, he realized how much trouble sasuke was causing the village and everyone else.

[Miss Soupy]

@BrokenFigurine

There is a translation on mangastream where Sai says: Giving up on Sasuke and choosing you is Sakura's way of freeing you from your promise.

Of course Sakura's true feelings on the matter continue to be left in the dark, we can only speculate for which boy she feels more romantically towards. She is going after Sasuke to protect Naruto, but she also is doing it to free Sasuke from his dark path.

[Nee-sama]

I think it's safe to say that the triangle remains in tact. Naruto loves both Sakura and Sasuke, Sakura loves both Naruto and Sasuke, and Sasuke feels equally ambivalent to both Naruto and Sakura.

[catsi563]

That guys rant actually brought up one thing i failed to notice.

The picture Naruto had in his mind of Sakura and Sasuke was pre-Shippuden. While Sai was thinking terms of post shippuden persay.

I had missed that and its a very correct assessment. Confirming Naruto was still stuck in the early team 7 days and that he has effectively had that image and thought process shattered for him.

Now the question remains if he can still bring Sasuke back but this time in the right way.

[ciardha]

That guys rant actually brought up one thing i failed to notice.

The picture Naruto had in his mind of Sakura was pre-Shippuden.

Yep, as someone pointed out on an earlier chapter discussion, go back to 248. Sakura blushes and flirts with Naruto, overtly inviting him to look at her body in a sexual way- "Don't you think I look more womanly now?" Remember what Naruto said? "You look just the same" with a big grin on his face. Sakura thought he was making a joke and wasn't pleased. But it complete clear now he literally didn't see her as any different, not just looks but her whole being.

Occasionally, something dramatic would happen and he'd seem to take it in that she'd changed- the bell test when he saw how strong she was, the quick and near effortless cure of Kankuro, her anguish and tears over the pain and danger Naruto has faced because what he is (trying to pretend it was about Gaara, but his expression when he turned away showed all to well he knew it was her feelings about him), his deflection when she was healing his arm to talk about "getting closer to Sasuke" (Sasuke was the furthest thing in her mind at that time, it was Naruto she was focused on, protecting him, keeping him strong and healthy. Naruto is grinning as he says that, but Sakura looks unhappy- she was already starting to "move on" from Sasuke, and her action immediately following the flashback shows it, she gets a determined look on her face then makes flirtatous attempt to feed Naruto (chapter 343) Naruto doesn't process Sakura's romantic embrace of himself in front of the whole village in 450 either. Everyone else knows the signifigance- even Kakashi is blushing observing it. Kiba and Gai are leering, all the kids around Naruto and Sakura are blushing and grinning, etc... But Naruto just stands there frozen and stunned.

In Naruto's mind Sakura was "still just the same". He has "forgotten" all those moments. He still only saw her as the Sasuke fangirl she was at 12, he's not even seeing fully the 13 year girl who told him she was sorry she was too weak, but please wait, she vowed to get stronger, much less the 16 year old young woman who has "moved on from Sasuke and chosen Naruto". I'd be nice if someone would remind Naruto of all those times she showed feelings for him, and it'd be nice if Yamato would tell Naruto about the conversation in 297...

Naruto had to face the truth Sakura is not the Sasuke fangirl she was at 12, she is a young woman who has chosen to protect the young man she loves deeply (Naruto) from the young man who she carries some feelings for who he was (Sasuke).

Edited by ciardha, 05 December 2009 - 03:09 AM.

[dfammer]

Well Naruto has always been a knuckle head,but I think he has issues with intimacy because he was raised all by himself so I think it will take something "traumatic" to get him to snap into adulthood maybe Sakura being nearly killed or some other nasty stimulus.

Edited by dfammer, 05 December 2009 - 03:17 AM.

[Nee-sama]

Sweet let the smexy time begin Naruto finally passed puberty!

[ciardha]

Well Naruto has always been a knuckle head,but I think he has issues with intimacy because he was raised all by himself so

I don't think he really understood fully what it means to be in love with someone, yes, because of that. It's ironic though that Sai, with how much he's struggling to understand feelings at all, understands love far better than Naruto.

[RyrineaHaruno]

Sweet let the smexy time begin Naruto finally passed puberty!

I'd bet some smexy fun will make him believe, she loves him.

[Froot]

That guys rant actually brought up one thing i failed to notice.

The picture Naruto had in his mind of Sakura and Sasuke was pre-Shippuden. While Sai was thinking terms of post shippuden persay.

I had missed that and its a very correct assessment. Confirming Naruto was still stuck in the early team 7 days and that he has effectively had that image and thought process shattered for him.

Now the question remains if he can still bring Sasuke back but this time in the right way.

Lol, ''that guy'' is TwilightLink20xx, don't you know him from here?

I watched more of his videos - hilarious! His points were all valid and sensible. He really is a great debator.

[catsi563]

=O_o= hmm? I didnt put the two together for some reason.

My apologies twilight. Still all told exellent points.

Also Ciardha I agree fully. it puts a lot of Narutos reactions in much better context knowing that particular thought process of his.

[TwilightLink20xx]

It's all cool catsi, I don't exactly log on to here too often xD.

And glad that it clarified, that's something that has been driving me nuts throughout this entire conversation: Context! A lot of people, biased or not, just don't seem to get it. Not all Manga is written from the omnipresent 3rd person, usually Kishimoto makes us see through the character's eyes, which is why it has made such a great connection with me.

And thanks for the compliments Froot, though I would like to know how they're funny, 'cause I'm just a bit curious about where you got that from, lol.

[Froot]

(lol catsi)

Ah, it's just the random little comments you throw in there. They just make me laugh You might not even be doing it on purpose, they're just funny.

I agree 100% on what you actually say, too. Kishi left it ambiguous for a reason; He purposely wants us to be confused. Like you said, had it been told from Sakura's point of view, things may have been clearer. But it wasn't. On purpose.

[JG111580]

I'm still not concerned that NaruSaku is ending. Actually, I am glad these scenes are taking place, and I think the coming chapters will be very interesting. Here's why...

Sai's intervention from the tent scene up to now is breaking down false perceptions that Naruto and Sakura have had and rebuilding them.

- Sakura now knows for a fact that Naruto has more than a goofy "let's go on a date" crush, he has, in fact, made tremdous physical and emotional sacrifices for for her

- Naruto now knows that Sakura cares for him enough to purposefully try and lessen herself in his eyes and try to make him stop loving her to remove his burden of retrieving
Sauske for her and lessen the blow when he learns that Sauske has been killed

Sakura is now taking decisive action to do what she feels in right

Sakura is heading toward a confrontation with Sauske, and I can't wait to see the look on his face when he realizes this is not the same dependent, relatively weak girl he left in Konoha.

Naruto may still not believe that he can become Hokage if he can't save his best friend

After his fight with Pain, Naruto's mission has become to fight hatred in the Ninja world, his most profound (and meaningful to the reader) act of accomplishing this may be redeeming Sauske, but now Naruto is realizing that things cannot go back to the way that they were (I think that is what is meant by the shattering image of Team 7)

The outcomes that I am hoping for are...

1. Sakura confronts Sauske and her feelings openly and makes the final romantic push toward Naruto (although this will not be made clear to Naruto right away)
2. Naruto does not give up, period. Right now everyone is making the case that nothing he can do will change the outcome for Sauske, while I don't believe he will save Sauske's life, in the end he will save him from the hatred in his heart
3. The ultimate redemption of Sauske will take Naruto and Sakura working together as one(with a little help from Itachi)

Just a hunch, but the use of shadow clones may be involved.

(I apologize for repeating some points that have been made in previous posts, but I just wanted to summarize what I am thinking.)