229 replies to this topic

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

In terms of male body types, one can just look at Naruto himself as an example. Even when he was freaking twelve, he had quite a muscular build with his shirt off, and that does not help when you also consider...(exaggeration or otherwise)

1.) Naruto has been shown not to exercise nor train on a regular basis (even normally, not having to be extreme at all).

2.) Naruto stuffs himself with ramen 24/7.

...if anything, he should have one of the unhealthiest bodies of the rookies by that age, if not most shinobi. The only other in-universe explanation would be is that it's simply because of being Kurama's Jinchuriki, but if that is indeed the reason, than Naruto's character was already hypocritical since, whether he knew it or not, Naruto was getting a free crutch through Kurama's chakra keeping him fit and healthy rather than it being himself like it is with others like Gai and Lee and such.

Out of universe explanation is, as it's mentioned in general, that it was simply to keep Naruto looking physically good for (primarily) the female fan base.

[questdrivencollie]

I'll be honest, I used to think that girls only pretended to find shirtless guys "hot". To me, it mainly looks odd. lol Like "that dude would look more appealing to me with a shirt on tbh."

[Aizen-Sama]

  
Considering every male in bleach aside from one isn't thin, lithe, and ripped? Or how in Naruto where only four males that I can think of arent flushed with muscle (Choji, Choza, the fat lard that was part of Sasuke's retrieval when he left the village, and Kisame's superior in the mist)? Hell, Sasuke only has a majority of his fanbase because of his looks. There's just as much, if not more sexism/fanservice in regards to male body types in any manga, not just shounen. The only reason no one talks about it is because they're men, so naturally no one cares.

 

The characters being physically fit is not my point, my point is that none of the male characters are sexualized or fanserviced in the same way that the female characters are except for spare cases like Sasuke.  Hinata is glorified by SP for her boobs, Kishimoto makes jokes about Tsunade's boobs, Sakura is made fun of for having a flat chest, Orihime is repeatedly sexualized for her breasts along with being shown eating hotdogs in suggestive ways and having Yoruichi stick her fist in between her breasts, Nami's boobs are glorified to hell and back, Harribel has the skimpiest outfit of the Espadas, Bulma is repeatedly seen naked and shown holding her dress up for old men, etc.  The male characters in these series may have unrealistic God-like bodies but they are not sexually objectified the way and to the extent that the female characters are.

 

That holds moreso for a 6 foot 7 mammoth of a man, that looks more like the Hulk than a normal human. The tall, skinny, lithe, corded type found rampant in Naruto and Bleach are geared toward "sexual objectification". Tiller often said that if Sasuke looked like Quasimodo, he wouldn't have half the fanbase. And he's right. The same arguments you can raise about the message of big boobed hourglass figures sent to girls, you can also argue the same for the same messages being sent to males, but no one actually cares about it. It's almost hard to call it a double standard, because it isn't ever brought up, it's consistently ignored.

 

Again, it's not about how the male and female characters look.  It's about how they're portrayed.

 

Out of universe explanation is, as it's mentioned in general, that it was simply to keep Naruto looking physically good for (primarily) the female fan base.

 

I think Naruto is kept fit to appear attractive to all anime fans since he is the main character and most of society doesn't want to see any fat or super-skinny ninjas.  I doubt he was made fit to appeal to fangirls since the manga is aimed at teenage boys. 

Edited by Aizen-Sama, 13 May 2015 - 07:39 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I think Naruto is kept fit to appear attractive to all anime fans since he is the main character and most of society doesn't want to see any fat or super-skinny ninjas.  I doubt he was made fit to appeal to fangirls since the manga is aimed at teenage boys. 

 

I wonder too if Naruto still being skinny was due to his still doing a lot of running and such since he was aiming to be a ninja at a young age? That's the only guess I got to why he'd still appear fit even with his eating ramen a lot.

[Aizen-Sama]

 

I wonder too if Naruto still being skinny was due to his still doing a lot of running and such since he was aiming to be a ninja at a young age? That's the only guess I got to why he'd still appear fit even with his eating ramen a lot.

 

He's not the only one who's skinny, the entire Konoha 11 is fit with the exception of Choji. xD  I don't think ramen actually gets you fat, some people have a high metabolism.

[Phantom_999]

FMA is one of the best though. One Piece and Bleach have some pretty badass women but the lasivious big-boobed fanservice kinda kills it. Naruto and Death Note are both sexist as hell and DBZ is mostly just a bunch of guys. Nothing wrong with that but it does limit the amount of strong females in the genre.
It's not just about how "strong" the girls are but also their prominence and role in the story.

 

Ah so You just don't like the fan service then. Yeah that's reasonable, although in the end it won't stop though, cause it will happen in a shonen series just as much as it won't.

 

As for female prominence in the story, well I don't know what to say about that. I agree completely that females must play importance in the story even if they are not the MC, but I don't see many male writers to my experience willing to do that. Again that is my personal perspective, not saying I've seen it all or anything.

Edited by Phantom_999, 13 May 2015 - 01:03 PM.

[Codus N]

I've got a simple question about fanservice: Why can't women be awesome and sexy as hell while doing so, and not be judged by their body image? Whether they're Big-boobed or fat

[AHK]

The characters being physically fit is not my point, my point is that none of the male characters are sexualized or fanserviced in the same way that the female characters are except for spare cases like Sasuke.  Hinata is glorified by SP for her boobs, Kishimoto makes jokes about Tsunade's boobs, Sakura is made fun of for having a flat chest, Orihime is repeatedly sexualized for her breasts along with being shown eating hotdogs in suggestive ways and having Yoruichi stick her fist in between her breasts, Nami's boobs are glorified to hell and back, Harribel has the skimpiest outfit of the Espadas, Bulma is repeatedly seen naked and shown holding her dress up for old men, etc.  The male characters in these series may have unrealistic God-like bodies but they are not sexually objectified the way and to the extent that the female characters are.
 
Again, it's not about how the male and female characters look.  It's about how they're portrayed.

You dont have to say anything about the trait for it to be considered sexualization. By virtue of the males having those God like bodies and them constantly being shown, that is just as much sexualization as a female having big breasts. You don't even have to say anything, if a girl in a show has big breast, the first leap that is made always the fanservice/sexism leap, but the same shouldn't apply for a man?

It might not be totally how you look, but first you have to look the part before you can be portrayed as something. Looks hold the heaviest weight in fanservice.

Nami's boobs aren't glorified, honestly I would say Nami is actually used in a way to make fun of those Otaku perverts via Sanji's extremism, based on her treatment of Sanji and how he is exaggerated. Orihime isn't repeatedly harped on for her breasts, I'll give you the one occurrence, but in bleach it's few and far between. She has never eaten a hotdog suggestively though

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

You dont have to say anything about the trait for it to be considered sexualization. By virtue of the males having those God like bodies and them constantly being shown, that is just as much sexualization as a female having big breasts. You don't even have to say anything, if a girl in a show has big breast, the first leap that is made always the fanservice/sexism leap, but the same shouldn't apply for a man?

It might not be totally how you look, but first you have to look the part before you can be portrayed as something. Looks hold the heaviest weight in fanservice.

Nami's boobs aren't glorified, honestly I would say Nami is actually used in a way to make fun of those Otaku perverts via Sanji's extremism, based on her treatment of Sanji and how he is exaggerated. Orihime isn't repeatedly harped on for her breasts, I'll give you the one occurrence, but in bleach it's few and far between. She has never eaten a hotdog suggestively though

 

Yeah, I can understand annoyance at fan service without a doubt, though in Orihime's case, she usually didn't get a lot of cleavage going for her, in spite of her breasts being one of her more prominent physical features besides her smile.

 

One Piece can be big on fan service in a lot of ways too.

 

Of course, it's hard for most shonen writers to try to put together some solid female characters, and Naruto had it good with Sakura before it went to ****. 

[Nar123]

FMA is one of the best though. One Piece and Bleach have some pretty badass women but the lasivious big-boobed fanservice kinda kills it. Naruto and Death Note are both sexist as hell and DBZ is mostly just a bunch of guys. Nothing wrong with that but it does limit the amount of strong females in the genre.
It's not just about how "strong" the girls are but also their prominence and role in the story.

 

Nothing wrong with DBZ being a bunch of a guys since it can be quite normal for shonen (just look at Mahou Shoujo for example where most of the characters are female), yet we still have strong females there like Android 18 or Videl

 

@Bolded: Death Note sexist? Hell no

 

 

 

In terms of male body types, one can just look at Naruto himself as an example. Even when he was freaking twelve, he had quite a muscular build with his shirt off, and that does not help when you also consider...(exaggeration or otherwise)

1.) Naruto has been shown not to exercise nor train on a regular basis (even normally, not having to be extreme at all).

2.) Naruto stuffs himself with ramen 24/7.

...if anything, he should have one of the unhealthiest bodies of the rookies by that age, if not most shinobi. The only other in-universe explanation would be is that it's simply because of being Kurama's Jinchuriki, but if that is indeed the reason, than Naruto's character was already hypocritical since, whether he knew it or not, Naruto was getting a free crutch through Kurama's chakra keeping him fit and healthy rather than it being himself like it is with others like Gai and Lee and such.

Out of universe explanation is, as it's mentioned in general, that it was simply to keep Naruto looking physically good for (primarily) the female fan base.

 

I don't think Naruto's character was that much for fanservice though, we rarely saw him without his jumpsuit top and when he is without he seems relatively normal.

Edited by Nar123, 13 May 2015 - 04:21 PM.

[Nar123]

 

Yeah, I can understand annoyance at fan service without a doubt, though in Orihime's case, she usually didn't get a lot of cleavage going for her, in spite of her breasts being one of her more prominent physical features besides her smile.

 

One Piece can be big on fan service in a lot of ways too.

 

Of course, it's hard for most shonen writers to try to put together some solid female characters, and Naruto had it good with Sakura before it went to ****. 

 

Naruto had plenty fanservice for the fujoshi though, and SP always put a little Hinata fanservice in the anime

Edited by Nar123, 13 May 2015 - 04:22 PM.

[Codus N]

A real good author/mangaka is one that draws/writes them as cute/hot from initial impression, then make us go "Holy Hell!! Did she just do that!!!???"

Anyone can write/draw an average-looking girl doing cool things and get proper development, but it's even harder to draw/write hot women kicking butt and have great characterization to boot. At least that what it seems to be in the entertainment industry nowadays.

[rocci]

@aizen
It's called fanservice.
Fanservice in shonen manga do something like that and panty shoot and nudity scene. Why it become like that? Because the target audience is young male.
Is that wrong? No. Is that annoyed? To some people. Is that necessary? No.

Naruto doesn't have much fanservice. The fanservice come from naruto drag mode & male fanservice.

@phantom
I have to disagre with female must play importance in the story.
Story maker doesn't obligate to do that.
I think well written character is more important.

@codusn
There's no problem with that.

[rocci]

A real good author/mangaka is one that draws/writes them as cute/hot from initial impression, then make us go "Holy Hell!! Did she just do that!!!???"

Anyone can write/draw an average-looking girl doing cool things and get proper development, but it's even harder to draw/write hot women kicking butt and have great characterization to boot. At least that what it seems to be in the entertainment industry nowadays.

A great mangaka is the one who could make an ordinary or even better an ugly design character from intial impression and make us go "holy hell! Did she just do that!?"

Not anyone can make an avarage looking girl doing cool thing and get proper development, just ask kishi.
Make hot women kicking ass and have great characterization is hard? Really?

Not only entertainment nowaday who do that. It already do since long time ago.

[Aizen-Sama]

 

Ah so You just don't like the fan service then. Yeah that's reasonable, although in the end it won't stop though, cause it will happen in a shonen series just as much as it won't.

 

I agree, that's part of what I'm trying to tell AHK who believes that male characters in shounen are sexually objectified to the same extent that female characters are when that's false since shounen caters to a straight male audience.

 

I've got a simple question about fanservice: Why can't women be awesome and sexy as hell while doing so, and not be judged by their body image? Whether they're Big-boobed or fat

 

I'm not judging the female characters by their bodies, I'm judging the amount of unnecessary fanservice they are shown in. 

This is not a woman being "awesome and sexy as hell" while fighting:

 

 

It's fanservice and while there is nothing wrong with that, sexually objectifying a female character does make said character look like she's nothing more than fap material.  But go figure, it's a boys' manga which proves my point that shounens like Bleach, One Piece etc fanservice its female characters more than its male characters.

 

You dont have to say anything about the trait for it to be considered sexualization. By virtue of the males having those God like bodies and them constantly being shown, that is just as much sexualization as a female having big breasts. You don't even have to say anything, if a girl in a show has big breast, the first leap that is made always the fanservice/sexism leap, but the same shouldn't apply for a man?

It might not be totally how you look, but first you have to look the part before you can be portrayed as something. Looks hold the heaviest weight in fanservice.

Nami's boobs aren't glorified, honestly I would say Nami is actually used in a way to make fun of those Otaku perverts via Sanji's extremism, based on her treatment of Sanji and how he is exaggerated. Orihime isn't repeatedly harped on for her breasts, I'll give you the one occurrence, but in bleach it's few and far between. She has never eaten a hotdog suggestively though

 

Having perfect God-like bodies is not the same thing as being sexually objectified.  Shounen is a genre directed at teenage boys, are you seriously trying to argue that the male characters are ripped and being sexually objectified for the sexual pleasure of the male audience?     It's the female characters that get all the raunchy fanservice because it's a boys' manga.  There's nothing wrong with that but it does turn off a lot of female readers, which is why I say FMA is one of the most girl-friendly shounens because it refrains from sexually objectifying its female characters despite being targeted at teenage boys.

And yeah. Orihime has been showing eating a hotdog in a suggestive way on one of the Bleach DVD covers.  I don't really care about it, I'm just using it to prove my point that female characters get more fanserviced in shounen that male characters.

 

 

Nothing wrong with DBZ being a bunch of a guys since it can be quite normal for shonen (just look at Mahou Shoujo for example where most of the characters are female), yet we still have strong females there like Android 18 or Videl

 

@Bolded: Death Note sexist? Hell no

 

 

Hell yes Death Note is sexist,  Misa is a complete idiot with the lowest IQ in the cast and Naomi MIsora was told to forget about her FBI career and have babies by her husband when she tried helping him solve the Kira case.  Light also repeatedly states that women are stupid and L says that Naomi rose to the top ranks of the FBI "surprisingly fast for a woman".  Kira is also never assumed to be a woman for some strange reason.  The men and women weren't on equal grounds in that series.

About DBZ, there's nothing wrong with the cast, I was only using the pervertedness with Bulma as an example of how female characters are sexualized in shounen.

 

@aizen
It's called fanservice.
Fanservice in shonen manga do something like that and panty shoot and nudity scene. Why it become like that? Because the target audience is young male.
Is that wrong? No. Is that annoyed? To some people. Is that necessary? No.
 

 

Exactly.  That's why I say FMA is one of the best shounens because it refrains from pointless vulgar fanservice. 

Edited by Aizen-Sama, 14 May 2015 - 12:01 AM.

[questdrivencollie]

What I normally see tends to be more along the lines of women having exaggerated figures and body parts to the point that the body types aren't very realistic at all?

 

 

I would say that a lot of times fan service is done for humor more than sexuality...but then, I'm not inclined to view fictional characters sexually apparently, especially not girls. So maybe for others it's a trip to naughty land. For me it's not.

[Phantom_999]

I agree, that's part of what I'm trying to tell AHK who believes that male characters in shounen are sexually objectified to the same extent that female characters are when that's false since shounen caters to a straight male audience.
 
 
I'm not judging the female characters by their bodies, I'm judging the amount of unnecessary fanservice they are shown in. 
This is not a woman being "awesome and sexy as hell" while fighting:
 

 
It's fanservice and while there is nothing wrong with that, sexually objectifying a female character does make said character look like she's nothing more than fap material.  But go figure, it's a boys' manga which proves my point that shounens like Bleach, One Piece etc fanservice its female characters more than its male characters.
 
 
Having perfect God-like bodies is not the same thing as being sexually objectified.  Shounen is a genre directed at teenage boys, are you seriously trying to argue that the male characters are ripped and being sexually objectified for the sexual pleasure of the male audience?     It's the female characters that get all the raunchy fanservice because it's a boys' manga.  There's nothing wrong with that but it does turn off a lot of female readers, which is why I say FMA is one of the most girl-friendly shounens because it refrains from sexually objectifying its female characters despite being targeted at teenage boys.
And yeah. Orihime has been showing eating a hotdog in a suggestive way on one of the Bleach DVD covers.  I don't really care about it, I'm just using it to prove my point that female characters get more fanserviced in shounen that male characters.
 
 
Hell yes Death Note is sexist,  Misa is a complete idiot with the lowest IQ in the cast and Naomi MIsora was told to forget about her FBI career and have babies by her husband when she tried helping him solve the Kira case.  Light also repeatedly states that women are stupid and L says that Naomi rose to the top ranks of the FBI "surprisingly fast for a woman".  Kira is also never assumed to be a woman for some strange reason.  The men and women weren't on equal grounds in that series.
About DBZ, there's nothing wrong with the cast, I was only using the pervertedness with Bulma as an example of how female characters are sexualized in shounen.
 
 
Exactly.  That's why I say FMA is one of the best shounens because it refrains from pointless vulgar fanservice.

 
Well actually I'd think Males are pretty Sexualized in shojo manga if anything.
 
 

@phantom
I have to disagre with female must play importance in the story.
Story maker doesn't obligate to do that.
I think well written character is more important.

 
It's not a must but if female prominence was more emphasized in a story then it would be more gender equal wouldn't you think? Besides if a writer is not obligated to make a prominent female, that writer is not obligated to make well written characters either, just ask this farce of a series we un-followed. It's not a question of obligation but ability and willingness to think about what kind of message you want to send in your story.

Edited by Phantom_999, 14 May 2015 - 12:50 AM.

[Aizen-Sama]

What I normally see tends to be more along the lines of women having exaggerated figures and body parts to the point that the body types aren't very realistic at all?

 

I don't really see that as a problem since the male characters' bodies are just as ridiculously-proportioned and unrealistic in manga.  My issue is the heavy perversion on female characters that gets annoying as hell sometimes.   

 

 
Well actually I'd think Males are pretty Sexualized in shojo manga if anything. 

 

Well shojo manga's not as mainstream as shonen and I don't really care about it anyway.

[Phantom_999]

Yeah but its there so we can say either or objectifies the opposite sex in some way.  not all but a lot

Edited by Phantom_999, 14 May 2015 - 01:21 AM.

[Nar123]

 

Hell yes Death Note is sexist,  Misa is a complete idiot with the lowest IQ in the cast and Naomi MIsora was told to forget about her FBI career and have babies by her husband when she tried helping him solve the Kira case.  Light also repeatedly states that women are stupid and L says that Naomi rose to the top ranks of the FBI "surprisingly fast for a woman".  Kira is also never assumed to be a woman for some strange reason.  The men and women weren't on equal grounds in that series.

About DBZ, there's nothing wrong with the cast, I was only using the pervertedness with Bulma as an example of how female characters are sexualized in shounen.

 

 

 

Misa is just one character among many, she is a delusional girl who was obsessed by an idea, then manipulated

It wasn't like that with Naomi, before she had helped L with an important case in the USA and then after her husband died during the Kira investigation she went to try help L again, not her fault that she met Light along the way

One of the top members in the Near investigation team is a woman

 

In any case it annoys me when people try to find sexism in everything, seriously. 

This is a shonen, not always are women going to have to an important part in the main cast, like I said in the case of Mahou shoujo where men characters have little to no role

People like Misa, Takada and Mikami ( who is not even a woman)  exist to show how great Light's manipulation skill is, that has nothing do with sexism

Edited by Nar123, 14 May 2015 - 02:00 AM.