200 replies to this topic

[TouKen4Life3g]

I believe It's like a cycle, people getting bored in mainstream shonen battle manga for a while, and it prove by the popularity of AoT and assassination class room. It's like when death note become soo popular.

I don't get it.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

 

I've already said this before (this is also a sort of response to you, Nate), SJ's readership is actually getting older with the 17+ audience growing by each year. The 13-16 age group is actually getting smaller each year, on the other hand. But instead, Jump keeps pushing for mangas suited for the 13-16 age group. Why they're doing this absolutely makes no sense to me. If their readership is getting older, then they should be pushing for more titles like AoT or Bleach.

 

Just goes to show you how big of an idiot Jump is, just look at AoT's success. They could've had a cashcow bigger than the rest of the Big 3, and they just let it go. Simply because it's "too mature". When in reality, that's what the fans wanted with the growing 17+ demographic literally screaming in their face.    

 

That's really strange. If they know their main audience is getting older, and they target audience smaller, why are they not adjusting to accommodate that? Or do they think that pushing for manga aimed for the 13-16 bracket will somehow get that readership back?  

Edited by BakeNeko-Chan, 14 December 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[Chatte]

 You're perfectly right. We talked about this here, some weeks ago. The shonen genre is still appealing, but it's undeniably in decline. People are a little less interested and mangaka are searching for new things. I saw it on severals TV shows and in a lesson about manga at university. 

Ahah! I knew that I remembered it from somewhere!

[TouKen4Life3g]

Let's not forget that people are growing up. Not staying younger and not staying the same age. I mean imagine reading the same series for over 10 years and this goes for anything, not just manga. I often think when the same creators create a sequel or goes to second act, they go "darker" and at times more towards to the original fans. Yes, new fans can happen, if the sequel is a brand new story, but at times, the creators feel to acknowledge that people are becoming more adult. Maybe it's just me but I have seen part 2 or sequel being darker and "edgier" than the predecessor.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Let's not forget that people are growing up. Not staying younger and not staying the same age. I mean imagine reading the same series for over 10 years and this goes for anything, not just manga. I often think when the same creators create a sequel or goes to second act, they go "darker" and at times more towards to the original fans. Yes, new fans can happen, if the sequel is a brand new story, but at times, the creators feel to acknowledge that people are becoming more adult. Maybe it's just me but I have seen part 2 or sequel being darker and "edgier" than the predecessor.

I think that becoming more adult driven story doesnt mean it should be darker it's just kishi that has to avoid kittens like Madara awakening Susano'o without sharingan and etc...

His actions as to be more logical driven because having a more adult audience will demand more logical stuff.

Look at OP, ODA doesnt break his rules everytime, look at Jojo's which is already crazy and even Hunter x Hunter with his fights that sometimes has intelligent fights.

It's just that Naruto now turned out to be like DBZ on his fights, every fight now has a Susano'o and villains having transformatons that leads to nowhere(Obito), Madara, Sasuke, Kabuto...

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 14 December 2013 - 07:46 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I think that becoming more adult driven story doesnt mean it should be darker it's just kishi that has to avoid kittens like Madara awakening Susano'o without sharingan and etc...
His actions as to be more logical driven because having a more adult audience will demand more logical stuff.
Look at OP, ODA doesnt break his rules everytime, look at Jojo's which is already crazy and even Hunter x Hunter with his fights that sometimes has intelligent fights.
It's just that Naruto now turned out to be like DBZ on his fights, every fight now has a Susano'o and villains having transformatons that leads to nowhere(Obito), Madara, Sasuke, Kabuto...

I'm not saying doing darker route equals going new direction in fights. Fights is in own category. I just mean in story in general. It don't need to be darker, but the atmosphere is more matured. Whether the story is good or not, it is matured. Why so many deaths for the protagonist to witness? Why so many "feels"? Why so many new plot points that can scarred a character or two? Again, just because it's good or not doesn't mean it's not being more adult or so to speak.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I'm not saying doing darker route equals going new direction in fights. Fights is in own category. I just mean in story in general. It don't need to be darker, but the atmosphere is more matured. Whether the story is good or not, it is matured. Why so many deaths for the protagonist to witness? Why so many "feels"? Why so many new plot points that can scarred a character or two? Again, just because it's good or not doesn't mean it's not being more adult or so to speak.

But not just the fight even the story itself, remember how he said that the uchihas were the clan that sought the power and the senju's were about love and them in the end the uchihas were evil because they suffer more than a normal being, being a clan cursed with love and that they go evil because they love too much.
What he did with Madara i doesnt even has the words to describe it, i dont even see reason for him to come back alive, and worse this guy is so tough that he doesnt even feel pain after losing an arm, looked like his arm was something he can discard.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 14 December 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

But not just the fight even the story itself, remember how he said that the uchihas were the clan that sought the power and the senju's were about love and them in the end the uchihas were evil because they suffer more than a normal being, being a clan cursed with love and that they go evil because they love too much.

Well I'm only confirming the atmosphere/mood of a sequel/part 2, nothing more than that. I know what you mean, but that's not what I'm addressing. That's all I want to address.

[Codus N]

 

That's really strange. If they know their main audience is getting older, and they target audience smaller, why are they not adjusting to accommodate that? Or do they think that pushing for manga aimed for the 13-16 bracket will somehow get that readership back?  

 

That's the thing. Even before Bakuman came out, there were suspicions among fans that Jump's readership is actually getting older. Once the manga came out, all suspicions were confirmed. Which now begs the question; why? and the logic behind it.

 

But it looks like they're trying something new now. Currently, there's a new series which has quite a lot AoT vibes, so it's likely Jump is trying this new approach. Whether or not it'll be the new AoT, is yet to be seen.

Edited by Codus N, 15 December 2013 - 05:48 AM.

[merryGOflava]

I don't know when it started

But....

my interest in Naruto is seriously dying....

 

and it's NOT because I'm getting older and don't like stuff like Naruto anymore

 

cause I'm totally into Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Adventure Time, My little Pony....right now. So I love kid things!

 

.....Naruto is just....dragging on.....Naruto should have ended this war ages ago....narusaku should have been canon by now...the sasuke vs naruto fight should have at least started!

 

I'm not even scared for the characters dying anymore....shikamaru can kick the bucket now and I'll be like "meh"

[Dkey]

dont know how kishi structured his war arc but the obito fight lasted more than needed and its not even over.

there were also a lot of stuff that could be expanded about but he decided to have obito think of rin for 3 volumes. we had a minato tnj volume that didnt lead anywhere because obito is still in the game and minato and kakashi are the ones to fight him.
also we are expecting a bijuu vs madara fight that will last one volume. theres also the issue with madara and the senju brothers.
excluding anymore lore we might have to wait about 3 volumes for the war arc to end. its just too much because there are the same characters doing the fighting.

[Nate River]

That's the thing. Even before Bakuman came out, there were suspicions among fans that Jump's readership is actually getting older. Once the manga came out, all suspicions were confirmed. Which now begs the question; why? and the logic behind it.
 
But it looks like they're trying something new now. Currently, there's a new series which has quite a lot AoT vibes, so it's likely Jump is trying this new approach. Whether or not it'll be the new AoT, is yet to be seen.

Even if something like that had not come out, it's somewhat hard to believe that there has been anything close to 100% turnover rate when it comes to readers. I doubt it's anything remotely close to that. And that isn't even the biggest reason, I feel that the excuse is lame. I simply look at what Kishimoto has written and he is either targeting a broader range and he thinks more of that demographic than people in this thread do.

To accept that as a reasonable defense I'd have to believe that Kishimoto and/or his editors (given the long standing rumor over their insistence on Team Not Seven I could believe it) are of the position that the audience is mature and bright enough to digest these complex characters and problems, but too stupid and immature to tolerate a in kind resolution and to care (or even notice) basic continuity problems. Maybe he and/or his editors think this. Either way, it's why I find the excuse unacceptable.

cause I'm totally into Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Adventure Time, My little Pony....right now. So I love kid things!

I don't know about the Turtles, but given the fanbase on My Little Pony and Adventure Time I'd say a lot of people do. Including me...*points at Flame Princess Avatar*

[BakeNeko-Chan]

Let's not forget that people are growing up. Not staying younger and not staying the same age. I mean imagine reading the same series for over 10 years and this goes for anything, not just manga. I often think when the same creators create a sequel or goes to second act, they go "darker" and at times more towards to the original fans. Yes, new fans can happen, if the sequel is a brand new story, but at times, the creators feel to acknowledge that people are becoming more adult. Maybe it's just me but I have seen part 2 or sequel being darker and "edgier" than the predecessor.

 

In some ways, part two is darker and 'edgier' than part one, and I think that is part of the issue. Kishi has introduced heavier and more philosophical elements to the story, most noticeably in the Pein arc, but the problem is that he only skims the surface of the darker issues in the story so as not to muck up the core message, and Kishimoto's focus on the "message", often hurts the believability of the storytelling, such as not having Sasuke do anything that might seem too irredeemable in the eyes of the audience, because 'saving' Sasuke is a huge part of the message Kishi wants to illustrate and as a result, I feel that this has hurt Sasuke's credibility as a character. Or there is the fact that the flaws of Naruto's beliefs are never truly challenged, seriously, you can't change the whole world just by "never giving up", it's just not that simple, but Kishimoto would rather just avoid such issues in favor of preserving Naruto's idealism.

 

I'm not sure if I've explained myself very well, there are certainly people here who could probably put it much better than me, but oh well.

[TouKen4Life3g]

 
In some ways, part two is darker and 'edgier' than part one, and I think that is part of the issue. Kishi has introduced heavier and more philosophical elements to the story, most noticeably in the Pein arc, but the problem is that he only skims the surface of the darker issues in the story so as not to muck up the core message, and Kishimoto's focus on the "message", often hurts the believability of the storytelling, such as not having Sasuke do anything that might seem too irredeemable in the eyes of the audience, because 'saving' Sasuke is a huge part of the message Kishi wants to illustrate and as a result, I feel that this has hurt Sasuke's credibility as a character. Or there is the fact that the flaws of Naruto's beliefs are never truly challenged, seriously, you can't change the whole world just by "never giving up", it's just not that simple, but Kishimoto would rather just avoid such issues in favor of preserving Naruto's idealism.
 
I'm not sure if I've explained myself very well, there are certainly people here who could probably put it much better than me, but oh well.

I understand. I'm only addressing the mood and atmosphere around part 2/act 2 or sequel, that's all.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

I understand. I'm only addressing the mood and atmosphere around part 2/act 2 or sequel, that's all.

 

Ah, I see.

[Codus N]

Even if something like that had not come out, it's somewhat hard to believe that there has been anything close to 100% turnover rate when it comes to readers. I doubt it's anything remotely close to that. And that isn't even the biggest reason, I feel that the excuse is lame. I simply look at what Kishimoto has written and he is either targeting a broader range and he thinks more of that demographic than people in this thread do.

To accept that as a reasonable defense I'd have to believe that Kishimoto and/or his editors (given the long standing rumor over their insistence on Team Not Seven I could believe it) are of the position that the audience is mature and bright enough to digest these complex characters and problems, but too stupid and immature to tolerate a in kind resolution and to care (or even notice) basic continuity problems. Maybe he and/or his editors think this. Either way, it's why I find the excuse unacceptable.

 

Just to clarify, I'm not defending Kishimoto at all regarding this. In fact, I fully agree with your entire assessment of this arc. What I'm simply doing is to offer a perspective on why this is all happening. It's really one of many possibilities on why this is happening. Your reasoning is also a major plausibility.

[Nate River]

Just to clarify, I'm not defending Kishimoto at all regarding this. In fact, I fully agree with your entire assessment of this arc. What I'm simply doing is to offer a perspective on why this is all happening. It's really one of many possibilities on why this is happening. Your reasoning is also a major plausibility.

No, I agree with you.

[merryGOflava]

I don't know about the Turtles, but given the fanbase on My Little Pony and Adventure Time I'd say a lot of people do. Including me...*points at Flame Princess Avatar*

 

hmm I guess your'e right.....maybe I'm just getting more into American cartoons instead? (the turtles are everywhere on Nick right now...I guess they count as popular)

 

I just gotta hold out with Naruto....I lasted this long! a little war isn't gonna push me away! 

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

Just to clarify, I'm not defending Kishimoto at all regarding this. In fact, I fully agree with your entire assessment of this arc. What I'm simply doing is to offer a perspective on why this is all happening. It's really one of many possibilities on why this is happening. Your reasoning is also a major plausibility.T

This is a problem with Kishimoto.
I believe the fact he wants to depict all the villains as some sort of innocents to deliver his message is damaging the story.

On part 1 we didnt had that, the villains died remember the guys who were protecting Sasuke, they died without being redeemed, even Kimimaro and compare even part 1 fillers with part 2 fillers.
HxH, OP and YuYuHakusho doesnt have this bs.

Naruto for some reason on part 2 softened up, the villains didnt looked like villains anymore and the exception would be Kakuzu and Hidan however we had many who committed suicide.

Orochimaru is not the same villain he was on part 1 his reasoning is just a bad or worse than Madara which is crap aswell.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 15 December 2013 - 11:52 PM.

[rocci]

I disagree with you darkrest, we have that kind villain in part 1 like haku, zabuza, and garra.
The only sympathetic villain character is naruto clone like nagato, obito, and even kabuto.

@ns4life
I don't know how to say it correctly, but AoT and assassination classroom give something fresh just like how death note did in the past, unlike the general battle manga who promote friendship "BS" type.