163 replies to this topic

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Just to add.

The hidden Rain village doesnt have a sea.

 

Symbol of the hidden rain village = | | | |.

 

It can have a lake but not a sea.

[James S Cassidy]

 

I don't know about boring, but it's incredibly cheap.

 

The core problem is not about killing or giving life. The problem is removing the character in ways that allow Naruto to avoid having to defend his choice. As far as the manga goes, that, above all else is what I want. Naruto never has to decide what next nor deal with any the consequences for letting them live. 

 

Kishimoto obviously thinks letting him live is the more moral thing to do, but rather than taking it's most damning problem head on, he pretends it doesn't exist. Is there anyone who think that the best or more persuasive way to deal with a legitimate counter arguments is to pretend they don't exist? That's basically what he's doing,

 

it's total bull to take that stance and then cheat his way past the obvious problems with ass pulls and Deus Ex Machina. 

 

Would it be weird to say this doesn't bother me as much because I realize it is supposed to be aimed at like 16 year olds? It's like watching Power Rangers or VR Troopers back in the day where saving the day was rather easy. As we grow up in our real world, we realize real life isn't that easy and life doesn't just sort it self out simply because you want it to...(Or does it? A friend of mind will get this one) So we want more stories that are compelling with problems that can't be solved with a mere force of will.

It's like...going back to Superman and Batman. Superman is a superhero who always has the answers, who always has enough strength, and who always takes the moral high ground despite many of times it seemed like a bad idea. Sure, he could obliterate every threat that comes to him easily, but chooses not to because he wants to show compassion and inspire through hope. Not fear. This is unlike Batman whose stories are darker and the problems are not so easy to solve. He has limited abilities and has to rely more on solving the problem through complex means and even then it might not work. At times it seems only a short solution.

I kind of want Obito to live, not because death is really too easy of a punishment to give, but rather what happens when a bad guy is giving a second chance at life to reshape his life and the world for the good instead of evil? That's why death is too easy to me. It doesn't really solve the problem, it just erases it. I want to see the problem finally become resolved and done with a character that is succinct and needs that refocus.

I guess Sasuke's story will end this way, but with the fact that so many are willing to hand wave most of Sasuke's "evil deeds" with technicalities, I am not sure if this will be a satisfying end for either side.

 

 

 

And it's weird... think back to Naruto's reaction to Zabuza.  He was tearfully outraged at the way Zabuza treated Haku, and sickened by Zabuza's callousness.  Naruto was a lot younger then, and a lot less experienced with war and life in general, and yet he seemed to have a more defined sense of right and wrong back then.

 

Sasuke has defected, killed, plotted, betrayed, waded into the deep end of insanity and tried to kill Naruto's love, and yet when Naruto had a shot at Sasuke his priority was to say that he understood Sasuke's steaming piles of BS and was glad they were friends.  

 

Just like with Obito, Sasuke's hateful lawlessness far outweighs whatever pseudo-sympathetic motivation he's had.  I just don't get what happened to Naruto's keen sense of righteousness.

 

 

The fact that Sasuke could do anything and Naruto is still willing to forgive him thinking he has to "save him" has kind of altered his vision of morals a bit. At least in my opinion. It seems like he doesn't want to save Sasuke because he believes Sasuke is a good guy, but rather just saving Sasuke because "He is my best friend."

 

That seems to be a common theme in this and only Kakashi kind of broke this way of thinking. Again, this is why I love Obito's story so much better than Sasuke because both Naruto and Minato felt true sympathy for Obito because of everything he went through. Yeah Obito was Minato's student, but that's not why he thought he should be spared.

Kakashi wanted to kill his best friend and didn't think twice about it. He knew he had to and it was through Minato's means he stopped telling him that death is not the answer here. Killing brings only more killing. it is a hard choice to make to not just kill Obito outright, but it is the right choice. The "right" choices are not always the easiest.

 

 

There are a lot of things that I wish Kishi would focus on.  The idea of punishment is one of those things for sure, additionally I just wonder how Naruto is going to change this ninja world.  It seems that it's apparently magically going to change because everyone could read Naruto's thoughts and feel his awesome sense of compassion or something, but that's horrible.  How will he change the world?  How will he get a bunch of military communities to find other ways of dealing with each other?  How will he prevent the consequences of war?  How will he get said military villages to allocate enough money/resources/personnel to the ongoing victims of wars (orphans, farmers whose lands have been destroyed etc etc)?  Kishi is great with the set-up, but with the follow through...

 

But then again, this manga is written for children, so I guess it's to be expected.

 

May I chime in? To be fair, we are dealing with ninja here who have powers that give the ability to make most of the resources back. Farm lands and such things can be rebuilt probably within seconds and not all lands were just destroyed. If the whole nation worked together, they can rebuild rather easily. Hell, the sand village could probably make special stones and glass. If Yamato gets back alive, and I hate to say this, he can rebuild the buildings rather easy. If not, well maybe Hashirama can rebuild the buildings if Orochimaru let's him.

 

As for the orphans, well they might not necessarily be orphans if only the fathers went to war. Unlike the Nine-tails attack which happened at the village, and thus they were all there, chances are only the males went to war or so it seemed to be for the most part. I doubt any of them will turn into Sasuke's or something of the like because how many were orphaned during the Nine-tails attack who still came out okay? Albeit a little jacked up, but for the most part they were okay.
 

We are dealing with magical ninja here after all lol

 

[morgaine4]

May I chime in? To be fair, we are dealing with ninja here who have powers that give the ability to make most of the resources back. Farm lands and such things can be rebuilt probably within seconds and not all lands were just destroyed. If the whole nation worked together, they can rebuild rather easily. Hell, the sand village could probably make special stones and glass. If Yamato gets back alive, and I hate to say this, he can rebuild the buildings rather easy. If not, well maybe Hashirama can rebuild the buildings if Orochimaru let's him.

 

As for the orphans, well they might not necessarily be orphans if only the fathers went to war. Unlike the Nine-tails attack which happened at the village, and thus they were all there, chances are only the males went to war or so it seemed to be for the most part. I doubt any of them will turn into Sasuke's or something of the like because how many were orphaned during the Nine-tails attack who still came out okay? Albeit a little jacked up, but for the most part they were okay.
 

We are dealing with magical ninja here after all lol

 

 

No, you may not.

 

...

 

 

I know what you're saying, and of course there could be simple solutions but I wonder how much can Yamato do and how quickly?  How will they decide which lands get what resources when?  How would that be decided?  Considering the Hidden Villages' economy was based on ninja activity that probably included kidnappings, assassinations and the like how will those things change?  How will they implement these changes?  How would they enforces these changes?  What would be the economic benefits of these changes?  What would these magical ninja do now if aggressive tactics will no longer be used?  What new judicial system would be put in place (I'm pretty sure the existing judicial system is lacking)?

 

I'm just really interested in this new society that Naruto is supposed to help usher in, and I want to know how he would implement it, who would help him (Shikamaru, Sakura, and Sai are a given) and how?  What and/or who would Naruto be willing to give up for the sake of peace?  How long would peace last, for Naruto's life?  Beyond that?  Until a one of the current Kage is replaced?

 

I just think the nit and grit of the transition into the new era would be so interesting, I'm sad that we'll probably not be given too much information about this transition...andI know that it would probably be boring to 13 year olds...sigh.

[James S Cassidy]

 

No, you may not.

 

...

 

 

I know what you're saying, and of course there could be simple solutions but I wonder how much can Yamato do and how quickly?  How will they decide which lands get what resources when?  How would that be decided?  Considering the Hidden Villages' economy was based on ninja activity that probably included kidnappings, assassinations and the like how will those things change?  How will they implement these changes?  How would they enforces these changes?  What would be the economic benefits of these changes?  What would these magical ninja do now if aggressive tactics will no longer be used?  What new judicial system would be put in place (I'm pretty sure the existing judicial system is lacking)?

 

I'm just really interested in this new society that Naruto is supposed to help usher in, and I want to know how he would implement it, who would help him (Shikamaru, Sakura, and Sai are a given) and how?  What and/or who would Naruto be willing to give up for the sake of peace?  How long would peace last, for Naruto's life?  Beyond that?  Until a one of the current Kage is replaced?

 

I just think the nit and grit of the transition into the new era would be so interesting, I'm sad that we'll probably not be given too much information about this transition...andI know that it would probably be boring to 13 year olds...sigh.

 

I think these are questions that can be asked to any story and/or real life situations. 

 

Like if crime doesn't exist, do we need cops? And I mean all crime, not just the stereotypical stuff.
If bad guys didn't exist, would there be a need for heroes?

Hell, we can even apply this to Madara. If his goal is to become god and such, then what? After everyone is under their control and no one is left to confront him, what is there to do? It is almost like success means everything becomes boring. It is a mind blowing idea that the "perfect world" is not so perfect given that you need flaws to define what is perfect.

 

I don't think Naruto can achieve peace forever because eventually someone will want to start something for their own selfish desires. It is almost human nature to do so. Some comic books even played with this story where one hero stopped all crime in the world, all heroes would be out of a job. I am reminded of the Watchmen too when they achieved world peace...and then everyone got bored. Even news station didn't know what to write about.

It just goes to show that what makes life as it is is not the destination, but the journey.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 29 November 2013 - 06:23 AM.

[morgaine4]

 

I think these are questions that can be asked to any story and/or real life situations. 

 

Like if crime doesn't exist, do we need cops? And I mean all crime, not just the stereotypical stuff.
If bad guys didn't exist, would there be a need for heroes?

Hell, we can even apply this to Madara. If his goal is to become god and such, then what? After everyone is under their control and no one is left to confront him, what is there to do? It is almost like success means everything becomes boring. It is a mind blowing idea that the "perfect world" is not so perfect given that you need flaws to define what is perfect.

 

I don't think Naruto can achieve peace forever because eventually someone will want to start something for their own selfish desires. It is almost human nature to do so. Some comic books even played with this story where one hero stopped all crime in the world, all heroes would be out of a job. I am reminded of the Watchmen too when they achieved world peace...and then everyone got bored. Even news station didn't know what to write about.

It just goes to show that what makes life as it is is not the destination, but the journey.

 

 

All good points, and I certainly agree, I'm just really curious as to how Naruto would deal with these things.  He's so optimistic and stubborn, I just wonder how he'd function politically and diplomatically.  I mean, once he's a Kage --someone with actual political clout (I imagine most don't know how much influence Naruto has over Tsunade hahahaha)-- he'll have to act differently, he'll have to give in, he'll have to compromise.  It would just be so interesting to read.  Naruto's so determined, so driven he'll "break the curse" and "if there's such a thing as peace" he'll find it, and "he won't give up" but what would he give up for that dream?  Would he give up Sasuke?  If a less powerful village demanded a political marriage of convenience after he and Sakura have started a relationship, would he give up on Sakura for the sake of peace?  Would he make peace harder for the sake of Sakura's feelings?  Would Sakura allow him to do that?  (Though honestly, even if the manga were to go into these details 630 and 631 really serve as deterrents to this scenario).  In the manga it often seems that he'd just be followed as a deity, but it could be so much more complicated than that.  Heck, who knows how many techniques the people around Naruto would use in order to protect him etc (insert evil/devious laugh).

[Dkey]

 

I think these are questions that can be asked to any story and/or real life situations. 

 

Like if crime doesn't exist, do we need cops? And I mean all crime, not just the stereotypical stuff.
If bad guys didn't exist, would there be a need for heroes?

Hell, we can even apply this to Madara. If his goal is to become god and such, then what? After everyone is under their control and no one is left to confront him, what is there to do? It is almost like success means everything becomes boring. It is a mind blowing idea that the "perfect world" is not so perfect given that you need flaws to define what is perfect.

 

I don't think Naruto can achieve peace forever because eventually someone will want to start something for their own selfish desires. It is almost human nature to do so. Some comic books even played with this story where one hero stopped all crime in the world, all heroes would be out of a job. I am reminded of the Watchmen too when they achieved world peace...and then everyone got bored. Even news station didn't know what to write about.

It just goes to show that what makes life as it is is not the destination, but the journey.

 

 

Apart from Obito's war all wars were fought between huge groups of people ( clans, nations) and not just one individual against the world. For all intents and purposes if one arises then he will either become a tyrant and all the good guys would need to do is stop him or just stop him from advancing his plans.Thou bloodshed would exist it will be on one individual and not groups.

 

Then there's also the two friendships that went wrong that defines the Naruto vs. Sasuke relationship. I'm curious to see if Kishi will expand to the next generation where another of this friendships exist and if it will surpass Naruto and Sasuke's. If that would happen the only case is the Sasuke one won't go evil probably.

 

 

But doesn't anyone find it odd that Kishi kept Darth Bane's idea of 2 Sith lords in relation to the Uchiha.

At first there were 2 Uchihas Itachi and Sasuke. Itachi dies Obito slowly takes the scene. Now alledgly Obito bites the bucket and Madara comes back from the grave.

[Hanabi]

Just to add.

The hidden Rain village doesnt have a sea.

 

Symbol of the hidden rain village = | | | |.

 

It can have a lake but not a sea.

Maybe its like the Loch Ness lake xD

[James S Cassidy]

 

All good points, and I certainly agree, I'm just really curious as to how Naruto would deal with these things.  He's so optimistic and stubborn, I just wonder how he'd function politically and diplomatically.  I mean, once he's a Kage --someone with actual political clout (I imagine most don't know how much influence Naruto has over Tsunade hahahaha)-- he'll have to act differently, he'll have to give in, he'll have to compromise.  It would just be so interesting to read.  Naruto's so determined, so driven he'll "break the curse" and "if there's such a thing as peace" he'll find it, and "he won't give up" but what would he give up for that dream?  Would he give up Sasuke?  If a less powerful village demanded a political marriage of convenience after he and Sakura have started a relationship, would he give up on Sakura for the sake of peace?  Would he make peace harder for the sake of Sakura's feelings?  Would Sakura allow him to do that?  (Though honestly, even if the manga were to go into these details 630 and 631 really serve as deterrents to this scenario).  In the manga it often seems that he'd just be followed as a deity, but it could be so much more complicated than that.  Heck, who knows how many techniques the people around Naruto would use in order to protect him etc (insert evil/devious laugh).

 

We may never know those kind of stories unless Kishi decides to dive into them. So I am afraid that perhaps Kishi might say that yes eventually peace is achieved, but am going to remain it unknown as perhaps you can write stories that happened in that missing time.

Those stories alone could fill another manga.

 

 

Apart from Obito's war all wars were fought between huge groups of people ( clans, nations) and not just one individual against the world. For all intents and purposes if one arises then he will either become a tyrant and all the good guys would need to do is stop him or just stop him from advancing his plans.Thou bloodshed would exist it will be on one individual and not groups.

 

Irony at it's best. Obito actually created a temporary peace by making all the nations have to join up to fight against him. Again, going back to Watchmen where Ozymandias framed Dr. Manhatten for blowing up parts of the world. This way peace was achieved because then the whole world wanted to go against Dr. Manhatten. A common enemy.



 

[KnS]

The fact that Sasuke could do anything and Naruto is still willing to forgive him thinking he has to "save him" has kind of altered his vision of morals a bit. At least in my opinion. It seems like he doesn't want to save Sasuke because he believes Sasuke is a good guy, but rather just saving Sasuke because "He is my best friend."

 

I agree that Naruto's morality has been altered.  That's my issue.  Yes, he's grown up, and yes, his views are a little more sophisticated, but I miss the Naruto who knew the difference between right and wrong, and although he might love and support unconditionally he didn't compromise to the point that his values were nearly unrecognizable.  

 

What bothers me is that the choice seems to be among extreme options: either killing one's friend for his sins, or bending over and taking all his BS without expressing any genuine moral outrage.  Why no middle ground there?  Why couldn't Naruto have shown Sasuke some of the passionate righteousness he showed Zabuza?  

 

Instead Naruto essentially gave Sasuke a free pass along with a commitment to give up his life for Sasuke's issues if that's what it takes.  I don't like it because Naruto is doing all the work.  Sasuke gets to be a complete jackass, do whatever the hell he wants for whatever petty, short-sighted reasons while Naruto offers to ultimately take the responsibility for making it right.

 

I don't know.  Maybe when the time comes Naruto will react more like he did with Obito, and expect Sasuke to take responsibility for what he's done.  But considering the fact that one of Sasuke's main goals is to kill Naruto, it just sickens me that much more that Naruto is seemingly blind to Sasuke's need to be held accountable.

 

Just my feelings.  I can't help it.  I love Naruto, and miss his unwavering, uncompromising righteousness. 

[BakeNeko-Chan]

I can't quote anything!  It's seriously driving me nuts.

 

Anyway, about Obito reviving Jiraiya, I have to say I seriously hope not. I love Jiraiya as much as the next person, but especially after all this time, I would be really upset if he were brought back. His  death was probably the most memorable and well written death in the manga, it gave Naruto necessary development, and I would hate to see it all undermined like that. Kishi needs to stop bringing characters back, whether though Rinne Tensei or Edo Tensei and Jiraiya should be allowed to stay dead.

[Dkey]

 

I agree that Naruto's morality has been altered.  That's my issue.  Yes, he's grown up, and yes, his views are a little more sophisticated, but I miss the Naruto who knew the difference between right and wrong, and although he might love and support unconditionally he didn't compromise to the point that his values were nearly unrecognizable.  

 

What bothers me is that the choice seems to be among extreme options: either killing one's friend for his sins, or bending over and taking all his BS without expressing any genuine moral outrage.  Why no middle ground there?  Why couldn't Naruto have shown Sasuke some of the passionate righteousness he showed Zabuza?  

 

Instead Naruto essentially gave Sasuke a free pass along with a commitment to give up his life for Sasuke's issues if that's what it takes.  I don't like it because Naruto is doing all the work.  Sasuke gets to be a complete jackass, do whatever the hell he wants for whatever petty, short-sighted reasons while Naruto offers to ultimately take the responsibility for making it right.

 

I don't know.  Maybe when the time comes Naruto will react more like he did with Obito, and expect Sasuke to take responsibility for what he's done.  But considering the fact that one of Sasuke's main goals is to kill Naruto, it just sickens me that much more that Naruto is seemingly blind to Sasuke's need to be held accountable.

 

Just my feelings.  I can't help it.  I love Naruto, and miss his unwavering, uncompromising righteousness. 

 

Thou Sasuke is on the dark path and wouldn't hesitate to hurt innocent people if it would serve his goals he still didn't reach Obito's or Madara's wrongdoings.

The only difference of opinion is of course the label of akatsuky the nations put on him and with some particularity Kakashi's views on Sasuke that are in contradiction to Naruto but still Sasuke will be left to Naruto to handle as Naruto sees fit.

 

When that comes Naruto will give Sasuke his full attention.

 

Also there is another aspect and that is the way Naruto takes it personally. In Zabuza's case he saw Zabuza not give a kitten about Haku and took it personally. Fast track to the Gaara abduction ( somehow the Gaara fight also had Naruto take it personal), Nagato fight and now Obito. All of the previous mentioned individuals did something to irk Naruto personally. In fact Madara might be the only one who didn't hurt Naruto personally ( at least yet). Sasuke also hurt Naruto but compared to the others it's rather soft so if we want to see Naruto challenged Sasuke really has to do something evil ( destroy Konoha or kill/hurt someone dear to Naruto).

[TouKen4Life3g]

You know, what type of battle would this Madara's fight would be? For Obito, you get the idea that the battle is set for Naruto (+everyone) vs. Obito. However, for Madara, what exactly are we going to get? One-on-one? All-on-one? Few-on-one? That's something I'm interested to see how it all plays out. In fact, how would this battle goes? This one is on a smaller scale (until Madara do something "twisted"), so this is interesting to see what's in store for next chapter. Whatever happens in the next could possibly tells you what type of fight it will be next.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

You know, what type of battle would this Madara's fight would be? For Obito, you get the idea that the battle is set for Naruto (+everyone) vs. Obito. However, for Madara, what exactly are we going to get? One-on-one? All-on-one? Few-on-one? That's something I'm interested to see how it all plays out. In fact, how would this battle goes? This one is on a smaller scale (until Madara do something "twisted"), so this is interesting to see what's in store for next chapter. Whatever happens in the next could possibly tells you what type of fight it will be next.

I dont see any other purpose on this fight against Madara other than Jump forcing Kishi to lengthen the manga a bit longer.

The plot will only move forward when Sasuke backstab Naruto or he reveal his true intentions, the war arc is already done for me, it's purpose already served.

Naruto became the hero and saved everyone(3 times).

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 29 November 2013 - 10:46 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I dont see any other purpose on this fight against Madara other than Jump forcing Kishi to lengthen the manga a bit longer.

The plot will only move forward when Sasuke backstab Naruto or he reveal his true intentions, the war arc is already done for me, it's purpose already served.

Naruto became the hero and saved everyone(3 times).

And that's why I wonder what's going to be like now. Who are we serving? What is the goal of this next phase? There are some ideas that I won't share until next couple of chapters. It's best to do so, before I may doom everyone in here. I mean it...

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

And that's why I wonder what's going to be like now. Who are we serving? What is the goal of this next phase? There are some ideas that I won't share until next couple of chapters. It's best to do so, before I may doom everyone in here. I mean it...

Yep and more importantly will Sasuke get lured by the idea that with an Gedo Rinne Tensei he can not only revive Itachi but also his whole clan?

Obito had all their dna's on his laboratory.

[James S Cassidy]

 

I agree that Naruto's morality has been altered.  That's my issue.  Yes, he's grown up, and yes, his views are a little more sophisticated, but I miss the Naruto who knew the difference between right and wrong, and although he might love and support unconditionally he didn't compromise to the point that his values were nearly unrecognizable.  

 

What bothers me is that the choice seems to be among extreme options: either killing one's friend for his sins, or bending over and taking all his BS without expressing any genuine moral outrage.  Why no middle ground there?  Why couldn't Naruto have shown Sasuke some of the passionate righteousness he showed Zabuza?  

 

Instead Naruto essentially gave Sasuke a free pass along with a commitment to give up his life for Sasuke's issues if that's what it takes.  I don't like it because Naruto is doing all the work.  Sasuke gets to be a complete jackass, do whatever the hell he wants for whatever petty, short-sighted reasons while Naruto offers to ultimately take the responsibility for making it right.

 

I don't know.  Maybe when the time comes Naruto will react more like he did with Obito, and expect Sasuke to take responsibility for what he's done.  But considering the fact that one of Sasuke's main goals is to kill Naruto, it just sickens me that much more that Naruto is seemingly blind to Sasuke's need to be held accountable.

 

Just my feelings.  I can't help it.  I love Naruto, and miss his unwavering, uncompromising righteousness. 

 

You read my mind. Again, this is why I love Obito's story much better than Sasuke's because we have several good points about Obito that seems so much more tragic.

 

With a lot of villains it was always about being the good guy and doing the right thing. With Sasuke, it was only about "saving him" and not "Sasuke needs to do the right thing." He basically excuses all of Sasuke's actions based on because he "understands" him. The only time I actually agree with this is when he did it with Gaara because understandably, his whole village is to blame for Gaara's upbringing.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 30 November 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[Sinedd]

Obito's finished!

[Dkey]

You know I was thinking that it's a possibility that the Madara take down might be more interesting than it seems. At least I see that it will expand further some characters ( Hashirama, Tobirama, Ohnoki and maybe others).

[TouKen4Life3g]

I feel that because of Madara being the next target, it will bring more developments and explanations on the table, especially on how he lived part. We could learn more insight of his history after Hashirama defeated him as well how he obtained the body and Zetsu. Pretty much, we will get more out of him in due time.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I feel that because of Madara being the next target, it will bring more developments and explanations on the table, especially on how he lived part. We could learn more insight of his history after Hashirama defeated him as well how he obtained the body and Zetsu. Pretty much, we will get more out of him in due time.

I had no doubts that Madara awakened the Rinnegan after Hashirama died seemingly as they had a hate/love story together.

:)

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 30 November 2013 - 03:06 PM.