286 replies to this topic

[rocci]

Kakashi didn't love rin. it's like saying sasuke has hidden feeling to sakura.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Break for a couple of weeks huh? Interesting.

[KnS]

This logic is totally flawed is like picking up Kushina and saying "Sakura is not the kyuubi's jinchuuriki therefore the parallel is dead".

Gladly Sakura is not Naruto's light but Kishi depicted that if you only have one source of strenght you're bond that fail and that mirrors to the godly Hinata who has Naruto as her only source of light.

 

I agree.  I thought the same thing, but didn't want to mention it.  We end up talking about Hinata on these threads more often than necessary, especially when she is in no way relevant -- like this chapter.

 

I understand that you like Kakashi and all but that really doesnt make sense.

Being unworthy of someome or even holding something back doesnt make the person to reject someome feelings.

 

I think you're grossly oversimplifying Kakashi's situation.  

 

From the Gaiden we know that Kakashi was emotionally driven to overcome what happened to his father, a struggle that showed itself in his fierce adherence to the shinobi rules of conduct.  When the need to rescue Rin arose, Kakashi was forced to make a sudden choice: either cling to the rules and structure that had given him some measure of stability and dignity after his father's humiliating death, or ditch it all to save a teammate.

 

Obito was not facing that kind of moral dilemma at the time.  Obito loved Rin -- she was the "only light" in his life -- so there was no question, no hesitation on his part.  He was unconcerned with rules, or honor, or any of Kakashi's issues.  He was focused entirely on Rin, her wellbeing, and his feelings.  Kakashi was leader of the mission and ultimately responsible for its success and the team's survival.  Point being, the decision to rescue Rin was much easier for Obito to make because it did not require him to weigh options, think clearly, or sacrifice his rank or something he believed in to do so.

 

Once the action supposedly cost Obito his life, Kakashi turned on himself because he had hesitated and felt responsible.  Then another dose of guilt was spooned over him when Obito gave him the Sharingan, asking Kakashi to "see" the future for him.  Then ANOTHER dose of guilt was spooned over him when Rin tried to tell Kakashi that she loved him.

 

Even if Kakashi had loved Rin then, or fell in love with her later, or felt that he could have loved her -- he would never have felt free to act on those feelings after Obito died.  Rejecting Rin, regardless of how Kakashi might have felt, was his only option under the circumstances.  

 

Your flat statement "Being unworthy of someome or even holding something back doesnt make the person to reject someome feelings" is not only mistaken in Kakashi's situation, it doesn't hold true in other literary examples or in real life.  Many people reject love due to feelings of unworthiness.

[rocci]

Kishi didn't take break for almost ...six month?

I don't think this arc will end in this volume. I believe that kakashi and obito will join the two eyes power to awake it's true power(maybe kamui version of susanoo) to combat madara. Thus I believe there will be no involvement from sakura in this arc. Maybe in the next arc.

@kns
Like I said, kakashi didn't romanticaly love rin, if he's indeed love her, than he will think about her, which he doesn't. It's like saying sasuke has hidden feeling to sakura, but choose not to show it because he is focuse on his revenge quest.

Edited by rocci, 14 November 2013 - 01:54 AM.

[Cherry-Bloss93]

It's pretty simple
Kakashi : what would happen if sasuke didn't become a kitten, and let go his avenger quest.

Rin : dead sakura.

Obito : I don't think this is the first time using love as a motive to enslave humanity. And obito is what could happen to naruto if naruto failed to save sakura and sasuke kill her in front of naruto.

And obirin parallel NS is what would happen if naruto fail to save sakura. I mean sakura always save when she get in dangerous situation.

However, I think now that Naruto would not have the same kind of meltdown that Obito experienced because he has all of his friends/the village supporting him now.

Edited by Cherry-Bloss93, 14 November 2013 - 01:57 AM.

[rocci]

@cherry - bloss
Of course he will not, I mean even if sasuke, kakashi, and sakura getting kill he will not become obito or nagato or madara, maybe naruto will become like jiraiya who full of regret.

[KnS]

@kns
Like I said, kakashi didn't romanticaly love rin, if he's indeed love her, than he will think about her, which he doesn't. 

 

We don't really know for sure how Kakashi felt about Rin, or how he might have felt about her if things had turned out differently.  

 

And he did think of Rin.  In #607, for example, he shared the news of Naruto's impending birth to her gravesite first, then Obito's.  I agree it's in no way proof of romantic love, but he apparently had a relationship with her that was separate from the one he had with Obito.  We don't know what went on between them between Obito's death and Rin's.  

 

The point is, after Obito died Kakashi would never have pursued any feelings he might have had for Rin, nor would he have allowed himself to think about her in that way.  He believed Obito deserved her, and Kakashi would never have taken the place Obito wanted in Rin's life.  His conscience and sense of unworthiness wouldn't have allowed it.

 

It's like saying sasuke has hidden feeling to sakura, but choose not to show it because he is focuse on his revenge quest.

 

Sorry, but I don't think it's like that at all.  If Sasuke had feelings for Sakura -- or could have developed feelings of love for her -- and hid them because he knows Naruto loves her, it would be similar.

 

I hope Kakashi never did feel romantic love for Rin because it would have been a love he would never allow himself to realize.  I don't believe Sasuke would be that noble.

[TouKen4Life3g]

All the fanboys are retarded either XBOX or PS4, we all know that the deciding factor is the price point, and exclusives obviously.
But the problem is that MS focused more on quantity rather than quality and the problem lies on the fact that their exclusives are being lauched along with solid AAA titles multiplatform games that everyone is looking after, MS exclusives wont sell, there's no point on delivering 6 exclusives that wont sell well.
Everyone is buying the systems along with either Call of Duty, BF4 or ACV, and the exception with Killzone Shadow Fall.

there's still Destiny to come out, along with WatchDogs.

 

Sony filled up with 2 exclusive + indies and MMO games in order to people to wait for 2014.

In fact any of the purchases are justificable, there's no reason to buy a XONE or a PS4 right off.

It become a matter of hype train.

Yeah, tell me about it, but you know, the first one is ps4 and they praised it like second coming and whenever the negative they said about Xbox 360 or One is now being treated ok. I find that facepalm worthy. Whatever, I win in the end.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Like I said, kakashi didn't romanticaly love rin, if he's indeed love her, than he will think about her, which he doesn't. It's like saying sasuke has hidden feeling to sakura, but choose not to show it because he is focuse on his revenge quest.

It's more like he cares for her, but priority is without a doubt Obito. When Kakashi and Rin discussed that she should die, he only brought up Obito's wish to protect her. It goes to show that while he cares for her, the priority comes from his best friend, Obito. Rin's death got an effect but not a man changing moment like Obito. What made him differently ultimately is after his whole team died. That's why Kakashi can talk to Sasuke like they are relative because they need a "home" but since his is gone, he is different than before. Luckily, Naruto made him feel home because of who he reminded him in the first place, so it's like a link from the past to now. But yeah, Kakashi and Rin are just friends. Man, what's up with Sasuke's parallel being bromance while Naruto is all around.

[LadyGT]

Sakura is going to get so pissed if she sees Naruto using the Rasen Shuriken without the sage mode 

[TerrorKing]

I think it's fitting that Kakashi is the one to do finally "break" Obtio. They're old teammates after all. That Minato would join the conversation was unexpected but nonestheless fitting. 

 

The fact that both Kakashi and Minato are making excuses for Obito is expected, but I still don't know how I should feel about it. On the one hand, Obito was only twelve when Rin died. Going through a near death experience as well as witnessing the death of your most precious person by the hand of the guy who promised you to protect her is bound to be a traumatic experience. On the other hand, he should have accepted that this is war and that things like that happen, even if it's a harsh reality. 

 

The main difference between Obito and Naruto is that Naruto had people around him. It's the same as with Gaara in part 1. He represented what Naruto could have become if someone like Iruka had never come along and accepted him. Likewise, Obito had no one to ease his pain or fill the hole in his heart. He only had Madara and we all know how much of a self serving scumbag he is. 

 

I also liked how Kakashi mentioned that he would make sure that Naruto would never become like Obito. It's such a parent thing to do. I'm glad that Naruto has someone like Kakshi. 

 

I also liked the comparison that Minato made between KakaObi and NaruSasu. The last panel with Naruto's rasengang lighting the footsteps of the alliance was very well done.  

[Branden]

Sakura is going to get so pissed if she sees Naruto using the Rasen Shuriken without the sage mode 

Although he might get slapped I don't think Naruto would mind 

[Phantom_999]

Hi! I liked this chapter. It was corny and cliche, but I still like those things overall as much as I like the realism and brutality of life. Now do I vouch for Obito being killed? Depends. If he keeps up this this "I will do anything for Rin" attitude and still things the cost of millions of lives is worth I'll say sure OFF with his head. However should he try to make up for what he did I won't mind redemption all too much. NO I am not saying what he did was justified but when a person tries to contribute for their crimes, I'd say it'd be fair to give them a chance.

 

@Nate- You sound like Obito is bawling and begging on his knees for forgiveness and says he wants to change. But I'm not seeing that. True if he actually did that I'd call him undignified and  a poor excuse for a human being because that's like saying it's not his fault and that he won't take responsibility for his actions, but he's not is he? What James is saying is that if he wants to correct his wrongs by contributing positive change then it is humane to give him the opportunity wouldn't it? To say he deserves to die, no matter what because of what he did is not justice but self satisfaction. You want him to die because you want to see him suffer for what he did, not because it is the right thing to do. Which by the way, a lot of Sakura haters justify their hate for Sakura. They want to see Sakura emotionally abused for how she treated Naruto early on in the anime as payback. Not a guaranteed mentality for all haters but I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons. To kill for justice you are considering what is best for the greater good. What will minimize harm. But I see from your arguments that you just want Obito's life snuffed out because he caused way more deaths than could be counted and for a selfish reason, instead of He has caused millions of deaths and will continue to cause millions of more deaths. the second part is yet to be seen, no? but of course again that is only my opinion. With all due respect, if you say you want him to die to satisfy yourself than I would not say that it is wrong, In fact I could vouch for that feeling myself, but it would be good to admit it is a personal grudge and disgust with the person rather than justice since we all know revenge is revenge, not justice if you don't mind me saying.

Edited by Phantom_999, 14 November 2013 - 04:09 AM.

[narusakuforlife1667]

wait so how long will Naruto be on break?

[Derock]

wait so how long will Naruto be on break?

 

A week. Next chapter comes in on Thanksgiving week. Then a couple of more chapters until holiday breaks.

 

The message supposed to say, the next chapter will be in the 1st issue of the 2014 Weekly Shonen Jump, which they are releasing it a little bit too early.

 

So in other words, there isn't going to be a 6-week/a month and a half break.

[Nate River]

@Nate- You sound like Obito is bawling and begging on his knees for forgiveness and says he wants to change. But I'm not seeing that. True if he actually did that I'd call him undignified and  a poor excuse for a human being because that's like saying it's not his fault and that he won't take responsibility for his actions, but he's not is he?

I'm trying to see how you get that from what I said. I have been specific about why he is human debris and it has nothing to with begging for anything. It has to do with all the dead bodies.

Accepting responsibility is the very least he could do. He's trash regardless, but he'd be a special breed of it if he couldn't accept the responsibility for the direct and intended result of his actions. If people are giving him any serious credit for doing this then their standards are too low.

The reason he trash because he is a murderer. A mass murderer. He is trash because he uses a personal tragedy to justify inflicting pain, suffering, death upon those who have done nothing to harm him. He is trash because he wants to permanently take away EVERYONE's freedom for his own selfish ends while telling them it's for their own good. Those who don't die, lose any meaningful sense of life because they live at his leisure and experience life as he allows it. He is trash because he sought to kill his mentor for the crime of having other duties that didn't involve protecting Obito's love life. I can keep going...

 
 

What James is saying is that if he wants to correct his wrongs by contributing positive change then it is humane to give him the opportunity wouldn't it?

His victims are dead. Unless Kishimoto is willing turn the remainder of this arc into something not fit for use as toilet paper, then there is no correcting that. It's repugnant to even think he can. His plan, had it worked, would have left the rest under his thumb with no way to fight back.

In addition, how is going to accomplish this? Are you seriously contemplating a scenario where his sorry ass gets to leave prison in anything but an escort to the gallows (or whatever it is these ninja use) or a body bag? I guess he can write a book on his experiences and why you shouldn't slaughter the masses in pursuit of stealing their lives from them. Maybe some speaking gigs or something. I think the universe will survive if that doesn't get written.

Humane? I suppose it would be, but saying so is a far cry from saying his execution is inhumane and I don't think that it is. Why is his execution not acceptable? You (and James) never got around to saying that.

 

To say he deserves to die, no matter what because of what he did is not justice but self satisfaction. You want him to die because you want to see him suffer for what he did, not because it is the right thing to do.

I like the part where you presume my motives for me. And I'll say it again: He took life while trying to rob the remainder or their freedom. The end result is that he would have taken all life from the dead and all meaningful life from those that remained. So yes, I think justice demands that he pay for that sin with his own life.Anything else is insufficient. And, yes, it would be for the greater good considering he has demonstrated a capacity to engage in world ending behavior and that he has no problem slaughtering innocent people.

Rather than attacking my motives, you should be open about what you are saying: Killing someone for their crimes is NEVER just. If this guy is not fit for it who is? If this is what you feel then argue it, instead of sidestepping by claiming the only reasons I could possibly be motivated are improper ones. Intentionally or not, you leave yourself an out by leaving open the possibility someone could be motivated by justice, but the proceed to tell me that can't possibility be the basis for it.

 

Which by the way, a lot of Sakura haters justify their hate for Sakura. They want to see Sakura emotionally abused for how she treated Naruto early on in the anime as payback. Not a guaranteed mentality for all haters but I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons.

I don't care about them and I don't care why they do it.

And...

"Not guaranteed" and "pretty sure"? If this is all the certainty you possess about them then where do you get off telling me that your certain about my motivations must be rooted in self-satisfaction.

[Codus N]

 

Let me say up front that I have read none of the other comments on this thread, so forgive me if I repeat stuff other people have already said.

 

1. Kakashi.  He is, as I've always maintained, totally awesome.  He is a man who takes responsibility.  He is a man who understands bonds, loyalty, and the meaning of sacrifice.  Someone who has also suffered immensely and yet spent a lifetime walking the talk.  He is everything Obito is not.  

 

In a poetic way that is likely to sail unnoticed over the heads of Kishimoto's target demographic, Kakashi accepted more than Obito's eye on that fateful day.  Kakashi ended up taking on Obito's noblest qualities and improving on the rest, all while denying himself any comfort or happiness.  His humble dedication to Obito's dreams even brought him to the point of being named Hokage, an honor that made him uncomfortable and that he wished to reject.  Kakashi's reluctance to hold that office makes so much more sense now.

 

And I'm sorry but I have to say it again: I think Kishimoto missed a major opportunity to further highlight the stark difference between Obito and Kakashi by failing to reveal that Kakashi loved Rin as well.  It was a natural quality of Obito's for Kakashi to have acquired (along with everything else), and it would have made his sacrifice of Rin that much more powerful and meaningful.  

 

Minato did say that Obito and Kakashi both protected Rin with "all they had" -- which implies a lot -- but it falls short of spelling out that Kakashi might have loved her.  No matter.  It will remain my head canon.      (If I didn't already have two stories in progress I would so write this.)

 

2. Minato.  It is painful and rather disgusting to see a man who sacrificed everything stand there and grovel for forgiveness at the feet of a whiny loser like Obito.  When Obito said that Rin was the "only light" in his life, my reaction was of the "boo-effing-hoo" variety.  He had the gall to say that to two men who were there for him, who cared about his success, who helped and encouraged him, and who themselves gave up as much if not FAR MORE than what Obito lost, and who are STILL setting all that aside in order to make Obito feel better about himself.  Just... blech.

 

Nevertheless, Kakashi reaffirmed what we already know about Naruto when he said, "Because [Naruto] is not going to give up on his dream... and the real world."  That includes his feelings for Sakura, which we know he still hopes to call his girlfriend.  

 

 

Bolded: I think now might be a good time to hook up to those guys down my street to abduct you....   

 

On another note though, I think your assessment of Minato's character is a bit unfair in this regard. I mean, yeah I agree with you that Minato shouldn't really feel guilty about not being able to stop Obito that night, like Kurama kindly pointed out. But I don't think we're supposed to focus on Minato's self-pity regarding Obito, what I think Kishi was getting at with Minato is how he's lamenting the fact that he failed in his role as their Jonin sensei.

 

I definitely believe he's aware of what you're saying, thanks to Kurama. But this isn't about whether Minato needed forgiveness from Obito, rather it's simply Minato reflecting upon himself on how he failed in his duty as a teacher. That's what I think this whole chapter was about as well. We know for a fact that the Jonin senseis are held to the responsibility of raising the next generation properly and to be their guide. But however, Minato couldn't be there when his students needed him the most. I believe the reason is because of what Dαrkrєrsŧ said: "He who protects everything, protects nothing." Minato simply tried to be on all the battlefields at once that eventually, he lost sight of what was important for him: his students. And that eventually rolled into this whole fiasco. That's what I think he's blaming himself for.

 

We saw how Kakashi took Sasuke's defection, Kakashi/Minato was supposed to be a surrogate parent of sorts for their students, so the fact that they failed weighs heavily on them.  

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Except you used opinion and I used facts to back up my arguments. Just because you don't agree with them, doesn't mean they don't make sense or that you are correct.

You bought up panels and distort their purpose with your logic by applying a different resolution to a similar case (aka. Sasuke).

You only proved that Kakashi cares about Rin which is obvious and i'm not trying to prove the otherwise, but caring for someome doesnt not mean he has feelings for that person.
Otherwise Naruto should be in love with Hinata because when she jumped into the frontlines along Neji and her father Naruto said her name.

In fact it's you who has to prove the point that Kakashi has romantic feelings for Rin and the part where you say that Kakashi has become now a parallel to Naruto.

 

The manga never showed that he has feelings for Rin whatesover and stated that Kakashi was a parallel to Sasuke, it's not me who has to prove it.

 

 

 

 

I agree.  I thought the same thing, but didn't want to mention it.  We end up talking about Hinata on these threads more often than necessary, especially when she is in no way relevant -- like this chapter.

 

 

 

Even if Kakashi had loved Rin then, or fell in love with her later, or felt that he could have loved her -- he would never have felt free to act on those feelings after Obito died.  Rejecting Rin, regardless of how Kakashi might have felt, was his only option under the circumstances.  

 

Your flat statement "Being unworthy of someome or even holding something back doesnt make the person to reject someome feelings" is not only mistaken in Kakashi's situation, it doesn't hold true in other literary examples or in real life.  Many people reject love due to feelings of unworthiness.

 

Still that doesnt tell that Kakashi loved Rin back then, there's no fact on the manga whatesover that implies it, it sucks because it's like debating something that doesnt exist.

Kakashi never showed any kind of romantic feelings for Rin not even when he rescued her, he was merely doing that for Obito's promise.

I'm not really going to discuss "Kakashi has feelings for Rin" because he rejected her, he rejected Rin on the same way Sasuke rejected Sakura, despite Kakashi's case was more of a wake up call.
It's pointless to discuss if Kakashi loved or not Rin, because i'm not the one who has to prove it, the manga never stated it and never showed it, it's you guys who has to prove that he has feelings for RIn the rest i dont care.

 

Real logic world? 

Sorry Naruto this never happened, the only two character so far Sakura and Naruto felt unworthy of each other and still they were willing to accept a romance. 

And being honest feeling unworthy of someome doesnt not imply that this person loves the person who they feel unworthy, Sakura didnt loved Naruto on the summit and she felt unworthy of him.

 

In the end let me just tell you how this logic is flawed.

 

"Sasuke rejected Sakura because of his revenge and that his path was different one"

So Sasuke has feelings for Sakura, i mean if wanst the revenge he would certainly returned her feelings because he likes her

 

"Sakura said that Naruto was a fool for loving her"

So Sakura has true feelings for Naruto, she just feel unworthy of him, if she didnt had a low view about herself she would've accept Naruto's feelings and would love him.

 

"Kakashi rejected Rin because he was going to abandon her and there's Obito's love"

He has feelings for her but he's guilty and feel bad for Obito.

 

 

Sakura is going to get so pissed if she sees Naruto using the Rasen Shuriken without the sage mode  

 

SHe's going to punch him down.

ANd minato comments once again : he got my taste on woman :3

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 14 November 2013 - 11:50 AM.

[Chatte]

Funny how people are arguing about ObiRin/KakaRin and NaruSaku. But in a way, at some point, both ObiRin and KakaRin are somewhat equal to NaruSaku...

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Funny how people are arguing about ObiRin/KakaRin and NaruSaku. But in a way, at some point, both ObiRin and KakaRin are somewhat equal to NaruSaku...

I never see it to be equal and being honest people cant distinguish between caring from love.
KnS argued that Kakashi might have loved Rin because he also tried to protect her along with Obito.

 

It's completely ridiculous because it leads to a double standard, he said that Kakashi might loved Rin because of that but that also mirrors to Sasuke on which he protected Sakura too on part 1, and even was willing to die in order for Naruto and Sakura escape.

If we follow up this logic Naruto might end up on a orgy with the shinobi world.

 

NH claims that just because Naruto worries about Hinata he might has feelings for her(and even went further by claiming that he was over Sakura), SS claims that just because Sasuke cared about Sakura on part 1, he has feelings for her(saying that his feelings for Sakura are buried somewhere on his heart).

It even falls down to SasuKarin, just because he cared(or cares i dont know) about her jump the gun that he migh love Karin. 

KnS and other claimed the same thing, just because Kakashi cared about Rin he might had feelings for her.

Kishi already showed that there's a great difference between care and love.

I wish i really could understand this.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 14 November 2013 - 12:26 PM.