251 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

Yeah, I was also pleased to see Obito getting angry. Naruto is taking a terrible personal risk with his TnJ, getting up close and personal with his nemesis. Glad to see the nemesis being in-character diabolical too by using a hand-shake to choke him. And glad to see Naruto fight back. He's such a scrapper. 

 

So seeing the complexity of what's happening (on the surface it looks like TnJ, but it's really just hostage-situation empty promises) Naruto seems less the righteous saviour and more the planning leader, understanding that sometimes you have to manipulate for the greater good.

 

Lastly, although Obito's apparent psychosis is interesting, it falls right in line with the Uchiha's convenient bent towards being psychotic killers. It just doesn't engender any sympathy from me as it still feels like an excuse, when the guy committed genocide and murdered God-knows-how-many, including Naruto's father and mother (indirectly) and almost Naruto, himself. Just can't get there from here. Even though the Rin stuff is sweet/borderline-stalkerish and there's a parallel and all that, I just can't do it.

 

Why is only Naruto considered the manipulator? If that's the case, then isn't Madara just as manipulative as Naruto is right now? It's always baffles me that people can think one way can happen and yet never crosses their mind that it can also apply to the other side of the coin. Do you believe that people are manipulated to be evil or does it just come naturally? Obviously, you don't believe people are born evil considering you believe that the Uchiha curse is just an excuse so....

Basically, you're preaching that there is no such thing as good or evil and people are only manipulated to be such labels. How can that be? You don't think people can be good because they want to be? Of course, when we are born we don't know the the idea of good or evil. All we know is that we are selfish and are born wanting things. It is only when we grow do decide to be generous or not. Can't the essence of good and bad be the same way? We aren't born good or bad, but we can choose to be based on what we want in life. If people want to be good, could they be considered good just by wanting to be? If they want to be good and do thing to show goodness to others, then are they not good?

 

So, to you Obito is not bad and Naruto is not good. Obito was just more selfish than Naruto.

Just to note, if you do say that Naruto manipulates people to be good, but people naturally developed into being bad...your logic is full of crap. No offense.

 

However.... This really feels like Naruto's thing with Pain/Nagato. Naruto is coaxing him toward peace, but seriously...it's a peace that no one else is going to get behind. The rest of the villagers who were affected by Obito's murder spree aren't going to be welcoming him back. I realize it's a ruse to pull out the bijuu, but still, Naruto is offering him a peace he will never be able to deliver. Naruto's redemption can never be because all those shinobi behind him will beat him to a pulp. Obito's only redemption is in death. And Naruto has to know that.

 

 

Then the circle of hatred will continue and Naruto will have failed in his goal to "end the circle of hatred." No one will get behind? Didn't a lot of people just say that they are willing to get behind Naruto and support his ideals? So I guess whatever Naruto thinks is best people will support. Even Naruto himself has struggled with people with the same ideals you are preaching now and has told them that getting revenge and killing people for it will not fix the problem. It won't bring back was is lost.

And what about Sasuke? Should he die too or should he have a second chance at life? You're basically saying that anyone who ever does anything wrong should just be killed and not have a chance to redeem themselves or make things right. Death is the only solution for any broken laws.

[TouKen4Life3g]

In the end of the day, Obito was fighting Obito. I think that's the main point.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

 

 

Then the circle of hatred will continue and Naruto will have failed in his goal to "end the circle of hatred." No one will get behind? Didn't a lot of people just say that they are willing to get behind Naruto and support his ideals? So I guess whatever Naruto thinks is best people will support. Even Naruto himself has struggled with people with the same ideals you are preaching now and has told them that getting revenge and killing people for it will not fix the problem. It won't bring back was is lost.

And what about Sasuke? Should he die too or should he have a second chance at life? You're basically saying that anyone who ever does anything wrong should just be killed and not have a chance to redeem themselves or make things right. Death is the only solution for any broken laws.

But there's a limit, Obito had gone too far, if he wants to redeem himself, i'm not saying he has to die but will he chose to pass the rest of his life on a jail or be executed because of his crimes afterwards or die doing something good to redeem himself not to the others but for himself like Pain did.

 

Obito as Sasuke have to pay for the things they did obviously, Sasuke can have a second chance on his life(simply because he did good actions) but we cant simply imagine everyone forgetting about eveything he did to them and pretend it didnt happened and the damage he has done to a lot of people, like the samurais and the kumogakure ninjas he had killed, and the fact he ressurrected Orochimaru.

You can simply hey guys let's forget that he waged a war, almost destroyed the world, killed Inoichi and Shikamaru's father, plus Neji, and 40,000 ninjas.
And live with them like nothing happened at all.
It's utopia at it's best.

 

I know Naruto is a fictional work but even on the story there has limits.

 

About Sasuke.

His bad actions are always followed by good actions.
Killing danzo, Deidara, Orochimaru, "Itachi", helping the alliance.
Later, Joined akatsuki, attacked kumogakure, killed kumo ninjas, killed samurais, tried to kill Sakura, threatened to destroy the village, ressurrects Orochimaru, "kill Naruto".

 

He comes back saying "let's forgive and forget" but the guy passed his whole life doing bad actions because he could not forgive and forget and comes back telling others to do this.

Sasuke indeed has to pay for his bad actions and i think a lot of ppl agree with this.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 November 2013 - 11:03 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I'm sure it's the case of being prison or maybe execute for life or just die before you let anything happen. Not to try to make realistic and forgive me to use real event, but we recently have a shooting in mall but no death. However, from what's told, the shooter was planned to end his life, either by suicide by cop or just suicide. Prison for life is said to be worse than death. That said Obito got two options: give in to prison or suicide. In this case, he can do one good deed before death but we have to wait and see.

[Inferno180]

There was a redeeming thing about this chapter, usually a common theme in beating a villian is to make them realize just how far they lost their way.

 

I kinda had a hunch Naruto would show a case of how Rin would not be able to even stand what Obito had become, in essence, he is no longer the obito she enjoyed being with. Basically all that testing, all that dialouge lead to this moment and we will see how Obito goes from here with the plan foiled.

 

Kakashi's speech back in 630 of those who ignore the feelings of their friends are even worse, Obito seeing Naruto's resolve over events like Neji's death, the battering of the army, how he is like Obito's old self, its a lot that lead here. Now its seemingly a matter of does Obito feel cheated that he lost his only way to see Rin or is he just angry at himself for what Naruto said, becoming a monster rather than having moved on and lived as he saw he could have left madara to rot in his cave.

 

On a side note, Madara is still up, but notice one factor of grave concern: There are 7 tailed beasts spilled out on the ground, anyone think Madara may spring up again to try and them?

 

Well there are still many events to conclude, heres what comes next in the short term:

 

- Obito's outlook, what will happen here from now on

- Madara's reserve plan, Obito was stopped, but if chakra mechnanics are anything, Madara may just restart the countdown to disaster.

- Kakashi comes back, really he will be amazed naruto won and to see Minato again, this is the last reunion that must happen before the edo hokage release

 

As for what lies after this arc:

-the aftermath of the war, typically starting with a celebration scene of this fight ending, people praising naruto, hopefully a big moment between Naruto and Sakura or more likely a scene of team 7 again. Basically the calm and rest before the final confrontation

-The issue with Yamato, I mean the guy has to come back

- How the nations will deal with Sasuke for his past events but also his support with orochimaru

-Orochimaru and takas situation, what are they plotting with sasuke

-Sakura not trusting Sasuke will be brought to life, the notion started in 635

-what will sasuke do to naruto by "ending him for the future" aside from killing or trying to, how will killing naruto bring sasuke his goal

- The mother of all events, Naruto vs. Sasuke, how will the story of team 7 end, how will this impact Naruto for trying to get sasuke back once and for all compared to sasuke who is still on his own path of what he sees as ideal, a new age hashirama madara fight, also sakura of all people as well how will she be impacted by this event? remember kakashi is the sensei and worried about the outcome, but its much more of a mental event for sakura since she has the conflict of what Naruto has done for her vs. what she sees in sasuke and knows he became.

 

I still sense a NaruSaku starter event in the future, Sakura still has to mature and this situation from 635 with the hints of 631 and all past development, still linger saying Sakura cares about naruto.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I'm sure it's the case of being prison or maybe execute for life or just die before you let anything happen. Not to try to make realistic and forgive me to use real event, but we recently have a shooting in mall but no death. However, from what's told, the shooter was planned to end his life, either by suicide by cop or just suicide. Prison for life is said to be worse than death. That said Obito got two options: give in to prison or suicide. In this case, he can do one good deed before death but we have to wait and see.

In shounens villains either try to redeem themselves, i believe shounen always teach things about morals and what's right and wrong and teach that there's always a consequence for your actions no matter if they are good and bad.

I remember Yu Yu hakusho, where Sensui treatened to destroy the human world, but was stopped by Yusuke, Yusuke didnt meant to kill him but in the end he used his Reigan, on sensui he didnt dodged the attack just because all he wanted was to redeem himself by being killed by a demon.

 

Almost similar to Sasori's fight when Sasori let himself being killed by Chiyo-baa he saw he was wrong, despite not being fully redeemed, but them on later Kankurou tells him that instead of becoming a criminal he could've pursued immortality by giving it to his own work became a really famous master puppeteer and entrust his work to the next generation.

 

It's the same i can see on Obito, i cannot see him other than giving away his life to fix up his mess and entrust his dream and his will to Naruto to continue work he left behind.

Much like Jiraiya, despite not being a villain, he saw himself as not someome who's close to the kages or a great guy, but to redeem himself on his own eyes, he decided to give away his own life by helping Naruto against the akatsuki on Pain's arc.

He could have escaped from that fight with his summoning jutsu.

 

Nagato who after hearing Naruto's resolution saw how he betrayed himself and his beliefs and even Yahiko's ones, he saw himself as a trash but to do the right thing the only thing he could do at that moment he decided to give up his own life to fix the mess he did on konoha, and entrusted his dream and the peace objective to Naruto.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 November 2013 - 11:20 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

In shounens villains either try to redeem themselves, i believe shounen always teach things about morals and what's right and wrong and teach that there's always a consequence for your actions no matter if they are good and bad.

I remember Yu Yu hakusho, where Sensui treatened to destroy the human world, but was stopped by Yusuke, Yusuke didnt meant to kill him but in the end he used his Reigan, on sensui he didnt dodged the attack just because all he wanted was to redeem himself by being killed by a demon.

 

Almost similar to Sasori's fight when Sasori let himself being killed by he saw he was wrong, despite not being fully redeemed, but them on later Kankurou tells him that instead of becoming a criminal he could've pursued immortality by giving it to his own work became a really famous master puppeteer and entrust his work to the next generation.

 

It's the same i can see on Obito, i cannot see him other than giving away his life to fix up his mess and entrust his dream and his will to Naruto to continue work he left behind.

Much like Jiraiya, despite not being a villain, he saw himself as not someome who's close to the kages or a great guy, but to redeem himself on his own eyes, he decided to give away his own life by helping Naruto against the akatsuki on Pain's arc.

He could have escaped from that fight with his summoning jutsu.

Pretty much this. Obito went far enough to be fully redeemed and go back home for the rest of his life. I will be heavily shocked but again, like Disney, if you have done one bad deed, especially kill one, you will get killed in the end. In Shounen, it's the case of die for redemption or die as a villain.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Pretty much this. Obito went far enough to be fully redeemed and go back home for the rest of his life. I will be heavily shocked but again, like Disney, if you have done one bad deed, especially kill one, you will get killed in the end. In Shounen, it's the case of die for redemption or die as a villain.

 

Yep mostly it's the own villains who judge themselves not the others.

That's why it's different.
Kakashi as an example even when Rin told him about his feelings, as a way to make up for the bad thing he did, he rejected her by saying he was going to abandon her if Obito didnt stopped him.

If Sasuke gets redeemed it's likely enough that he will banish himself from the village rather than being judged by the villagers.

 

 

 

Are you making excuses for Sasuke?

 

Except to Naruto every one can and will be forgiven. Naruto is basically Jesus Christ in that he meant to forgive no matter what is done to him because he is the ultimate good guy. It's stupid and people say it is stupid, but that's the kind of character he is. He will always forgive no matter what happens.

 

You might not agree with it, but that's what being a hero is all about. Doing the things that no average person can do.

 

Also, if we are to forgive Sasuke for all he has done because "it always serendipity itself into being a good thing," then why no forgive Danzo who believed that doing the wrong thing for the right reason is considered good.

I

I just point out the reason why he wont die, if Sasuke dies he fails just like Hashirama and Orochimaru.
In fact they could not save Sasuke but despite his good actions, his bad actions doesnt lead to a point that he has to die.

He will either punish himself by self banishing from the village or the shame of what he did.

 

Despite Naruto being a hero and etc... the manga do tell about consequences of your actions.

The consequence of Sasuke's actions is being hated or losing his fame and respect that he once had, he will lose the place he belongs because everyone dislike him.

Someome who cannot be trusted, does Naruto can make his friends trust Sasuke? we already saw that he cannot, he cannot make people love Sasuke or trust him and due to this he will understand and accept it if he's redeemed.

 

Danzo, was never redeemed, despite doing his things for the greater good, is much like Nagato, Obito, Madara who tried to justify their actions by using noble excuses, but we have seen what he've done so far, robbing orphanages and doing forced recruits on orphans to serve the Root and making them kill each other to pass on a test and transform them on tools.

If Danzo had come back he would face the charges of the fact he was manipulating Mifune.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 November 2013 - 11:38 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

 

Yep mostly it's the own villains who judge themselves not the others.

That's why it's different.
Kakashi as an example even when Rin told him about his feelings, as a way to make up for the bad thing he did, he rejected her by saying he was going to abandon her if Obito didnt stopped him.

If Sasuke gets redeemed it's likely enough that he will banish himself from the village rather than being judged by the villagers.

Yeah, that's a logical approach and really, these guys are not being forced, rather they have to decide ultimately what they want to do in the end. I remember back then, when fighting Sasuke at VotE, Naruto said he doesn't care if he breaks his legs, he's not letting him go. That seems extreme of him, but now, he accepts his fate and will fight Sasuke, even if it ends up killing each other. That's more better than before because he was actually trying to force Sasuke too much and really don't give in the idea that Sasuke is Sasuke, it's his life. That's why he didn't want to believe that Sasuke chose his path, rather than being manipulated by Tobi. So yeah, I do want to see how everything plays out, but first war.

[James S Cassidy]

But there's a limit, Obito had gone too far, if he wants to redeem himself, i'm not saying he has to die but will he chose to pass the rest of his life on a jail or be executed because of his crimes afterwards or die doing something good to redeem himself not to the others but for himself like Pain did.

 

Obito as Sasuke have to pay for the things they did obviously, Sasuke can have a second chance on his life(simply because he did good actions) but we cant simply imagine everyone forgetting about eveything he did to them and pretend it didnt happened and the damage he has done to a lot of people, like the samurais and the kumogakure ninjas he had killed, and the fact he ressurrected Orochimaru.

You can simply hey guys let's forget that he waged a war, almost destroyed the world, killed Inoichi and Shikamaru's father, plus Neji, and 40,000 ninjas.
And live with them like nothing happened at all.
It's utopia at it's best.

 

I know Naruto is a fictional work but even on the story there has limits.

 

About Sasuke.

His bad actions are always followed by good actions.
Killing danzo, Deidara, Orochimaru, "Itachi", helping the alliance.
Later, Joined akatsuki, attacked kumogakure, killed kumo ninjas, killed samurais, tried to kill Sakura, threatened to destroy the village, ressurrects Orochimaru, "kill Naruto".

 

He comes back saying "let's forgive and forget" but the guy passed his whole life doing bad actions because he could not forgive and forget and comes back telling others to do this.

Sasuke indeed has to pay for his bad actions and i think a lot of ppl agree with this.

 

Are you making excuses for Sasuke? You know good came out of some of things he has done, but his concern was not whether it was a good or bad thing. That's why I bring up selfishness. He didn't care about being a good or bad guy. Rather he gets what he wants. Obito's case is rather similar. Good or bad doesn't really apply when you don't give a crap. He wants what he wants and if it so happen to cause good or bad stuff along the way, so be it.

Kazuma said it best in Kaze No Stigma:

"Why are you getting in our way, helping those you hate?"

"For Money. The head of the family hired me. A man's gonna eat. I play to the highest bidder kid, I am not a hero, but if I manage to do some good in the process so be it."

 

Except to Naruto every one can and will be forgiven. Naruto is basically Jesus Christ in that he meant to forgive no matter what is done to him because he is the ultimate good guy. It's stupid and people say it is stupid, but that's the kind of character he is. He will always forgive no matter what happens.

 

That's how you end the circle of hatred. I know many don't understand this concept and love to hold onto grudges, but it doesn't fix what is broken. Hell, even prison is not really a means to "re-educate" seeing how some come out worse than when they went in.

 

The idea that you tell is how people want revenge for all the death Obito has done. All the lives he has taken should be put on his shoulder and punishment should be put upon him such as death, but death doesn't really bring back the dead does it? It only prevents the villain from taking more lives. However, what if the murderer doesn't want to kill and instead wants to make better of the world? You might just be killing the one person that could help change the world for better instead of destroying it.

 

The entire means of putting someone in prison is to re-educate, is it not? A punishment to teach them that what they do is bad and frowned upon by society. What if they never learn that and continue to want to do bad things? Can't re-educate those who don't want re-education. So death is in order. However, is it fair to kill those that want a second chance simply because YOU can't get over their crimes? Isn't that you being exactly like them in a way? You are just killing them in the name of so called "justice" when really you just want revenge like they wanted. It makes you just as selfish.

 

So you are a murderer too and instead of basing punishment on whether or not it will teach a lesson, you are basing a punishment on your own grudge. You have to accept that there are some people who want to better themselves and that killing them outright is not a means to "fix" the world. Otherwise, why not just take a radical approach and kill every single person that ever did anything wrong?

 

You might not agree with it, but that's what being a hero is all about. Doing the things that no average person can do. Also, if we are to forgive Sasuke for all he has done because "it always serendipity itself into being a good thing," then why not forgive Danzo who believed that doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is considered good? Many say Danzo is an kitten and a bad guy along with Itachi, but both men did something bad believing it was the only way to solve the greater good. Sasuke "killed" Itachi and Danzo not because he felt it was the greater good, but because he selfishly wanted revenge.

 

[DattebayoXShannaro]

I guess I'm among the few who actually liked the chapter, along with its "TnJ".  I thought it was a appropriate as Obito was confronted with his old self.  Also, that by giving up his identity, he essentially gave up being watched over by Rin, because she said she will watch over "Obito Uchiha".  I liked that angle that was taken.  This could have taken a number of ways, but this was the route Kishimoto decided to take.  That result was to be expected because he discarded the real Rin.  He discarded anything that was real for his dream world where he dictates how the people around him are, even people who are dead to be alive. 

 

However, those people in the dream world are really his imagination, in other words him, and he is basically comforting himself.  This way of "filling a hole" is shown to backlash Obito in his flashback, which he enters this time, where there are three of him transforming into his team trying to lead him astray.  His personification of Minato is telling him to "fill the hole" like usual by himself, and that he doesn't need others.  The personification of Rin, that many are calling psycho Rin, continues it by saying "Come here, I won't ignore you."  The whole thing basically shows the dark truth behind the Infinite Tsukiyomi, and what Obito would have gotten by achieving it.  He is brought back to a sense of reality by his old self grabbing him by the hand, and we're taken back to Naruto doing the same thing telling him to come over to this side and not to underestimate the power of everyone working together. 

 

Now, Obito has lost his sage powers, and is defeated.  Looking up to the moon and his out stretched hand calling Rin, he looks depressed and dejected, proof he's lost.  I believe this is the point where Kakashi returns and talks to Obito while whatever happens next with Madara (most likely) happens.  Getting Obito to come to terms with himself is Kakashi's role now, and probably Minato too.  The end of this chapter just left me wanting more.  I can make assumptions of what happens next, but the story can go anywhere now.  We can guess Madara will make his move, but what can he do?  What will be his aim? and how long will that go until it reaches a conclusion?

 

Naruto and the Alliance are all exhausted.  Even I will get tired of another despairing situation to happen again, only this time Madara brings it about somehow.  In addition, Madara is invincible as an edo tensei.  As I said, the new focus and how it comes about is anyone's guess.  Well, I enjoyed the chapter, and I'm looking forward to the next one.

 

 

I honestly thought that Tobi was going to fully reject Naruto's offer there but with the disturbing flashback and Naruto essentially forcing him to join the "good side" before he can come to a conclusion by himself, I realised that it's over.

After that it's just a collection of panels with all of the named characters tugging at the bijuu. I thought that Sakura and Tsunade would still be using the remote healing technique but apparently they decided to join in the collective effort off-screen. Well considering that the Hokages decided to contribute also shows that everyone, regardless of character status or relevance, is involved in this fight besides Hashirama and Madara. 

 

So the bijuu are now all completely free of any human constrictions. This is probably the first time in decades that they've experienced freedom before. It's interesting to consider if Gyuki and Kurama would be partial to joining them or if they would prefer remaining with their jinchuuriki partners. I wonder how Shukaku will react to all of this since the last time we heard of him he seemed psychotic and bloodthirsty. He never encountered Naruto nor was he part of their gathering 80 chapters ago. 

 

Tobi is finished. His resolve is completely shattered now and the only thing he can do now is contemplate on his past. It'll be interesting to see how the Alliance reacts to this. I still can't see him surviving through to the end of this war. The next three chapters will probably be dedicated to the conclusion of his story. 

 

Considering Bee and Naruto would die if Giyuki and Kurama are removed respectively from them, and the fact they have a bond with their host now, I doubt they will have any problems staying where they are.

 

Obito will pull darth vader move, I believe.

 

Considering he lost the four element conversion and the Juubi's power that can harm an edo tensei, we lost all semblance of a Darth Vader type betrayal.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

Are you making excuses for Sasuke? You know good came out of some of things he has done, but his concern was not whether it was a good or bad thing. That's why I bring up selfishness. He didn't care about being a good or bad guy. Rather he gets what he wants. Obito's case is rather similar. Good or bad doesn't really apply when you don't give a crap. He wants what he wants and if it so happen to cause good or bad stuff along the way, so be it.

Kazuma said it best in Kaze No Stigma:

"Why are you getting in our way, helping those you hate?"

"For Money. The head of the family hired me. A man's gonna eat. I play to the highest bidder kid, I am not a hero, but if I manage to do some good in the process so be it."

 

Except to Naruto every one can and will be forgiven. Naruto is basically Jesus Christ in that he meant to forgive no matter what is done to him because he is the ultimate good guy. It's stupid and people say it is stupid, but that's the kind of character he is. He will always forgive no matter what happens.

 

That's how you end the circle of hatred. I know many don't understand this concept and love to hold onto grudges, but it doesn't fix what is broken. Hell, even prison is not really a means to "re-educate" seeing how some come out worse than when they went in.

 

The idea that you tell is how people want revenge for all the death Obito has done. All the lives he has taken should be put on his shoulder and punishment should be put upon him such as death, but death doesn't really bring back the dead does it? It only prevents the villain from taking more lives. However, what if the murderer doesn't want to kill and instead wants to make better of the world? You might just be killing the one person that could help change the world for better instead of destroying it.

 

The entire means of putting someone in prison is to re-educate, is it not? A punishment to teach them that what they do is bad and frowned upon by society. What if they never learn that and continue to want to do bad things? Can't re-educate those who don't want re-education. So death is in order. However, is it fair to kill those that want a second chance simply because YOU can't get over their crimes? Isn't that you being exactly like them in a way? You are just killing them in the name of so called "justice" when really you just want revenge like they wanted. It makes you just as selfish.

 

So you are a murderer too and instead of basing punishment on whether or not it will teach a lesson, you are basing a punishment on your own grudge. You have to accept that there are some people who want to better themselves and that killing them outright is not a means to "fix" the world. Otherwise, why not just take a radical approach and kill every single person that ever did anything wrong?

 

You might not agree with it, but that's what being a hero is all about. Doing the things that no average person can do. Also, if we are to forgive Sasuke for all he has done because "it always serendipity itself into being a good thing," then why not forgive Danzo who believed that doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is considered good? Many say Danzo is an a**hole and a bad guy along with Itachi, but both men did something bad believing it was the only way to solve the greater good. Sasuke "killed" Itachi and Danzo not because he felt it was the greater good, but because he selfishly wanted revenge.

 

You know Sasuke is selfish but he did evil actions but who affected other people negatively.

In fact it's not that they will forgive him later but the fact they wont accept him or acknowledge him, like i said, they wont simply forgive him and start loving him as he was on part 1 when all the villages praised him.

Obviously no

 

No ones on the series so far judged the villains who are going to be redeemed as "you're going to die because of the things you did" but rather they chose to die or punish themselves that's the difference on shounens.
Naruto can end the circle of hatred by making people to not go after revenge against Sasuke but that doesnt mean that they have to accept him as a friend, respect him, trust him and etc...

In case you noticed, even the k11 knowing how Naruto cares about Sasuke they are not willing to have him back as a friend neither trust him, they will accept and forgive Sasuke but wont accept him as a friend anymore.

Even before on part 1 when they went after Sasuke they werent doing that for Sasuke's sake but rather to help Naruto, they all saw Naruto's misery and the promise he did to Sakura even Shikamaru was willing to sacrifice his life for Naruto.

 

Yep Naruto is a hero he will achieve by saving Sasuke, but that doesnt mean he will make everyone love Sasuke or trust him or be friends with him, he will still have the bad reputation he gets following him everywhere.

 

Just to finish up on the bolded one, Naruto didnt forgive Nagato either, so the whole idea of Naruto bringing peace by making other people to forgive him i'm not sure, Naruto only refuses to seek revenge, although he didnt forgive Obito either but wanted to redeem him by not seeking revenge.

 

http://i5.mangareade...naruto-8901.jpg

 

In fact Jiraiya's dream was about people understanding each other, but because of Naruto understand Nagato and Obito on that time he could not forgive them but he refused to become like them by seeking revenge and decided to follow Jiraiya's path, he didnt forgive Nagato but he still hated him, his answer was that he said "i wont kill you".

 

Shikamaru also explains when he says "if Kumogakure kills Sasuke, You and Naruto will seek revenge on them, you two will die and them we will go after to seek revenge aswell for you deaths and will lead to a war".

 

Here's Naruto's final answer.

http://i14.mangaread...naruto-8962.jpg

"i understand you, but i cant forgive you and i still hate you but pervy sage believed on me, and i'll believe on what he believed so i won't kill you".

 

So to sum up, he didnt forgive Nagato and still hated him but however decided to not pursue revenge on him and let him go.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 07 November 2013 - 12:47 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

You know Sasuke is selfish but he did evil actions but who affected other people negatively.

In fact it's not that they will forgive him later but the fact they wont accept him or acknowledge him, like i said, they wont simply forgive him and start loving him as he was on part 1 when all the villages praised him.

Obviously no

 

No ones on the series so far judged the villains who are going to be redeemed as "you're going to die because of the things you did" but rather they chose to die or punish themselves that's the difference on shounens.
Naruto can end the circle of hatred by making people to not go after revenge against Sasuke but that doesnt mean that they have to accept him as a friend, respect him, trust him and etc...

In case you noticed, even the k11 knowing how Naruto cares about Sasuke they are not willing to have him back as a friend neither trust him, they will accept and forgive Sasuke but wont accept him as a friend anymore.

Even before on part 1 when they went after Sasuke they werent doing that for Sasuke's sake but rather to help Naruto, they all saw Naruto's misery and the promise he did to Sakura even Shikamaru was willing to sacrifice his life for Naruto.

 

Yep Naruto is a hero he will achieve by saving Sasuke, but that doesnt mean he will make everyone love Sasuke or trust him or be friends with him, he will still have the bad reputation he gets following him everywhere.

 

Just to finish up on the bolded one, Naruto didnt forgive Nagato either, so the whole idea of Naruto bringing peace by making other people to forgive him i'm not sure, Naruto only refuses to seek revenge, although he didnt forgive Obito either but wanted to redeem him by not seeking revenge.

 

So you are under the impression that Naruto is going to automatically make people love Obito for whatever reason at all which is not what I meant at all. Naruto is meant to be the person to forgive and be the person to end the revenge like you said. Obito being loved...well, Obito will always have Kakashi. What kind of friend would Kakashi truly be if he didn't try to help Obito? I am also sure Kakashi, like Naruto with Sasuke, is willing to support him no matter what.

The DIFFERENCE is whether or not giving him a chance to become a better person and in time maybe be fully forgiven of his crimes if he has proved it.

Also, who says Naruto doesn't forgive Nagato by now? He did make up by bringing everyone back to life. Do you think that grants a forgiveness from Naruto or do you feel he still holds a grudge against him after all this time? Imagine if Naruto just killed Nagato outright? Just boom, no talking just dead.

 

Do you think that in all realm of possibility that Obito can be both loved and forgiven of everything in life and not through death? Death doesn't always have to mean the "end all and be all" of forgiveness. Like so many have told me before, "Sasuke dying doesn't have to be the means for him to seek redemption. He could live and get redeemed." So, could Obito.

And here is another question: True forgiveness is in redemption and the person repenting all the sin they have committed. How is killing Obito, who possibly wants to redeem and make up for it somehow, a mean to true forgiveness, but the only option for Sasuke is for him to become a wandering Samurai and not ever trying to fix the wrongs he himself has done?

 

Please, don't give me this crap "Well, Sasuke killed only people who are bad in themselves and so it is easy to see he didn't do anything bad." According to you all, murder is bad no matter what so you can't say Sasuke deserves to live and Obito doesn't.

 

AND OF COURSE....

You can always take into an account that Obito was Madara's pawn from the very start and many could see it that way. Sure, his actions of murder after Madara got involved were all his own, but I think Madara influenced him to go down a certain path. Which leads to question, if Madara didn't find Obito would he have done all this?

Edited by James S Cassidy, 07 November 2013 - 12:49 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Plus he did invade the summit, which is like invading White House. The point is he will get charge at the least.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

So you are under the impression that Naruto is going to automatically make people love Obito for whatever reason at all which is not what I meant at all. Naruto is meant to be the person to forgive and be the person to end the revenge like you said. Obito being loved...well, Obito will always have Kakashi. What kind of friend would Kakashi truly be if he didn't try to help Obito? I am also sure Kakashi, like Naruto with Sasuke, is willing to support him no matter what.

The DIFFERENCE is whether or not giving him a chance to become a better person and in time maybe be fully forgiven of his crimes if he has proved it.

Also, who says Naruto doesn't forgive Nagato by now? He did make up by bringing everyone back to life. Do you think that grants a forgiveness from Naruto or do you feel he still holds a grudge against him after all this time? Imagine if Naruto just killed Nagato outright? Just boom, no talking just dead.

 

Do you think that in all realm of possibility that Obito can be both loved and forgiven of everything in life and not through death? Death doesn't always have to mean the "end all and be all" of forgiveness. Like so many have told me before, "Sasuke dying doesn't have to be the means for him to seek redemption. He could live and get redeemed." So, could Obito.

And here is another question: True forgiveness is in redemption and the person repenting all the sin they have committed. How is killing Obito, who possibly wants to redeem and make up for it somehow, a mean to true forgiveness, but the only option for Sasuke is for him to become a wandering Samurai and not ever trying to fix the wrongs he himself has done?

 

Please, don't give me this crap "Well, Sasuke killed only people who are bad in themselves and so it is easy to see he didn't do anything bad." According to you all, murder is bad no matter what so you can't say Sasuke deserves to live and Obito doesn't.

That's complex James.

Here's the panel of Naruto's answer to Nagato.

http://www.mangaread...hapter-447.html

 

He didnt forgive Nagato, and still hated him, but believed on Jiraiya's dream and no matter what happens he will refuse to be selfish and seek revege.
Naruto's is not asking for them to forgive Obito or whatever but rather drop their revengefull desires and let him go, they will still hate him and wont forgive him but they wont seek revenge for what he has done.

 

I agree with you on the part that death doesnt mean forgiveness but rather has a meaning.
I mean Naruto forgive Nagato after he gave up his life and ressurrected everyone.

 

 

Plus he did invade the summit, which is like invading White House. The point is he will get charge at the least.

 

Putting Sasuke in prison is laughable he can escape easily from there, i believe it's somethign he will do to himself.
He will accept that the villagers dislike him and will get his second chance with team taka which will be like his family.
I always seem them as a family, team Taka for Karin, Suigetsu and Juugo is like the place they belong to.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 07 November 2013 - 12:56 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Putting Sasuke in prison is laughable he can escape easily from there, i believe it's somethign he will do to himself.
He will accept that the villagers dislike him and will get his second chance with team taka which will be like his family.
I always seem them as a family, team Taka for Karin, Suigetsu and Juugo is like the place they belong to.

My point is it's not easy to go back to the past. It's not like with others in other series, where one did it because he was order to or one is manipulated yet never forgiven for his actions.

[arian_rad]

Something that I see happening possibly in the next few chapters before madara is dealt with are naruto somehow telling Sakura to go towards Obito and start to heal him. (I still believe obito will have a major role in taking down madara) while obito is looking up at the sky thinking of Rin, I girl will show up next to her and start to heal her and that could possibly be the moment where he's lost it so much that he just looks at her and said "Rin....?". But sakura responds with "no, I'm not Rin but Naruto needs you for something and I won't let you die for his sake". We all know obito will die at the end but he needs to be redeemed. To me, that is for him to take down madara.

[Superman333]

I still want Sasuke to die. XD

Lols haha .

[TerrorKing]

Pretty interesting. I liked how at first it seemed like Obito would come over to Naruto's side but then...nope...still evil...

 

Which is nice because it helps make his road to redemption seem more believable. It's not just: 

 

Naruto: Come over to my side!

Obtio: 'Kay...

 

This way Obtio actually had to figure it out himself. He believed that project Tsuki No Me would be able to fill the hole in his heart, but it turns out that it would just be him, all alone in a world of illusions. 

 

Now that Obito is back in the real world there's even a small chance that Sakura could participate in the final part of his tnj. That is, if the NaruSaku/ObiRin parallel will even be brought up.   

[TouKen4Life3g]

Something that I see happening possibly in the next few chapters before madara is dealt with are naruto somehow telling Sakura to go towards Obito and start to heal him. (I still believe obito will have a major role in taking down madara) while obito is looking up at the sky thinking of Rin, I girl will show up next to her and start to heal her and that could possibly be the moment where he's lost it so much that he just looks at her and said "Rin....?". But sakura responds with "no, I'm not Rin but Naruto needs you for something and I won't let you die for his sake". We all know obito will die at the end but he needs to be redeemed. To me, that is for him to take down madara.

That...actually sound like it can happen. No, wait, I don't want to think of it. Unlikely. Go with it.

You know, I am really curious on what's next. I want to know what's next for Obito, since Madara is still around. I know his fate will be bad, but the war is not over. I want to know what Naruto wants next with him. He forced him to grab his hand and see how the world is different. I don't know if Obito will die before Madara is dealt with. After all, him and Madara are in equal footing in terms of importance. Now we wait.