217 replies to this topic

[Sojobo]

^ Same  Not to mention he still owe us some flashbacks. Granted if he does deliver anything about Karin's background, I bet people will call them asspulls; nevermind they've been coming since the IIIrd Databook got released lol

We will have flashbacks for sure.

Especially about that thing Suigetsu was talking about.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

His portrayal is about as polarized as the tsundere trope itself. I get the feeling Kishi believes that a well-rounded relationship can be portrayed in both a comedic and a serious light. However, comedy is all about timing, and his timing has been really inappropriate and poor lately. I can get that he wants to lighten the mood a bit given the depressing atmosphere of the war, but his execution completely misses the mark and just makes us question his sensibilities. What's probably supposed to come off as well-rounded/versatile, just comes off as bipolar. 

 

This is so true. Kishi's attempts at humor have been very bizarre as of late, more often than not it comes across forced or inappropriate and way off the mark of what it's probably intended to be. 

 

^ I completely agree lol Sometimes I wish Kishi were a little more conscious of the ways his character are perceived by the fandom so that he would be a bit more careful when it comes to his timing, at least.

 

I hope you don't mind me jumping in   If you ask me, the thing with Kishi is that - as everyone mentioned - he really, really, really likes his humor. When it comes to Sasuke, there are hardly any opportunities to bring humor through him because he is a very serious and mellow character in that regard; that is why whenever Taka is around, Kishi will take every opportunity to make things humorous (as they are there to both, compliment and balance Sasuke) be it in good taste or not. The same applies to SasuKarin. IMO his timing has been more off than ever now because of what I mentioned previously (he does know that he went too far) and because of what Yami just said; since they're at a war, Kishi will take every opportunity he can to sneak in the humor. 

 

But he will address them seriously when it's due. The prime example being the latest chapters. So basically, I do agree that it's in bad taste; but given the foreshadowing I do think he will end up making up for it and addressing it properly later. For now, I think his priority was to re-establish the SasuKarin dynamic (which he did in 627), to assert that Karin is very much still in love with Sasuke - and to start to show that something has changed, since Karin is being more open about her feelings for him - and Sasuke had never quite made such a face with her before, either. 

 

So it's a matter of seeing how he handles things when we see Sasuke and Karin actually interacting again.

 

I don't mind at all :) You could very well be right and Kishimoto only meant to bring a lighter side to SasuKarin, as he likes to do with different pairings and relationships, but he just made a poor choice in how to do that. If he had made more of an effort to treat it seriously first, before trying to bring in the humor, I think it would not have had such a jarring effect on me.

[Gojira]

I wonder how Kishi's gonna go about making SK canon

kind of difficult to do anything without Sasuke saying something OOC, I guess he could be nonchalant about it and it could be played for laughs like what happened in Toriko

Edited by Pepsi, 27 April 2014 - 03:43 PM.

[redragon88]

 

 

I must agree in general principle.

 

Besides, I honestly have to admit I don't understood the whole "unhealthy relationship" outcry with regard to this story.

 

In a world where ongoing conflict has created generations of orphaned children, and those children along with others are in turn trained to be killers who are willing and able to kill or orphan other children, and children like Naruto and Gaara are used as hosts for demons and mistreated because of it, and other children like Sai are systematically groomed to be emotionless bots in the service of questionable leaders like Danzo, and others like Itachi are forced to kill their clans to save a village, etc., etc., etc....

 

The entire shinobi culture is unhealthy.  Killing one another is not an uncommon result of conflict or advancement, is it?  Isn't that the point?  Isn't that what this last war has been about?  How unhealthy their culture has become?

 

All of that is taken in stride as an accepted theme of the story, but the relationships -- specifically those involving Sasuke (and Hinata) -- are typically scorned as "unhealthy" and heaped with moral indignation.  I don't think that makes a lot of sense in context.

 

No one can find Sasuke more distasteful than I do, but Karin is no paragon of virtue either.  I've said it before and I'll say it again: Karin knew Sasuke was a snake when she picked him up.  She knows who he is, and what he is, and loves him in spite of it.  Maybe because of it.  We have no evidence that she wants him to be different than he is, or expects him to conform to some image she has of him.

 

Beyond a willingness to choose her, Karin doesn't seem interested in changing Sasuke.  They are both orphans who took an unhealthy path, both have willingly associated with Orochimaru, neither feel a strong allegiance to anything beyond what they want for themselves.  They are dark horses who are as well suited to each other as any other pairing in the story.

 

Do I think Sasuke/Karin is an unhealthy relationship?  From a real world view, yes.  From a Naruto world view, no, I don't think it's significantly more unhealthy than any of the other relationships of the current generation.

 

Has it really been healthy for Naruto to pine over Sakura while she has loved Sasuke?  Not only was she clueless about Naruto's love for her, but she couldn't see it because she was stuck on a narcissistic jerk like Sasuke.

 

Has it really been healthy for Hinata to obsess over Naruto while he has loved Sakura?  She nearly got herself killed confessing her love for him, and he has never managed to even comment on it.  Meanwhile his love for another girl who loves someone else is as strong as ever.

 

Has it really been healthy for Lee to be willing to protect Sakura with his life when she hasn't given him the slightest bit of encouragement, and prefers to daydream about a narcissistic jerk like Sasuke?

 

Has it really been healthy for Ino to feel any emotional attachment to Sasuke, a guy she doesn't really know and who has never given her the time of day?

 

Has it really been healthy for Obito to have obsessed and fantasized about Rin all these years?

 

My point is, I personally don't think Sasuke and Karin have a lock on "unhealthy."  Like I said, it's a reflection of the world they're living in, and part of what Naruto is trying to change.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

This has got to be the most logical post regarding Naruto as a whole that I've ever seen.

 

There are not enough reps to give. This was absolutely fantastic.

[Gojira]

My only problem with SK is that by the end of the series Sasuke is just too much of a wildcard he's easier to influence to the other side than most fictional characters I've seen, and him having children just seems like something that threatens the shinobi world (well I mean if the shinobi world is still going to be around given that Kishi is foreshadowing Naruto creating world Peace and all that business)

[Yami_no_Princess]

My only problem with SK is that by the end of the series Sasuke is just too much of a wildcard he's easier to influence to the other side than most fictional characters I've seen, and him having children just seems like something that threatens the shinobi world (well I mean if the shinobi world is still going to be around given that Kishi is foreshadowing Naruto creating world Peace and all that business)

That's true, but let's keep in mind that Sasuke is still a young, impulsive teenager. It's difficult to judge how he'll be as a grown adult so it's not really fair to say whether he should or shouldn't have kids. Also, no guarantee his kids will be anything like him given that his kids will inherit traits from Karin as well. Kids aren't necessarily doomed to become their parents. 

[BakeNeko-Chan]

I do believe the romantic relationships will be given a lot of time to mend and conclude after the war. We'll get our answers then, but in the meantime, 631, the 660's, and Sasuke's brief, yet very serious apology should be enough.

 

bakaneko-chan, I don't believe Kishi is done handling the murder attempt and its effect on SK, so imo it's too early to judge. ^^

 

I totally missed this earlier,   I'm still so tired. But yes, it's possible Kishimoto is not yet finished addressing the attempted murder, and we'll all just have to wait and see. To be honest I would truly like to see how he would handle it in a more serious manner.

 

All in all, this conversation has been very interesting and enlightening, I've enjoyed reading the alternative viewpoints of those in this thread and I feel it's given me a more well rounded perspective.

Edited by BakeNeko-Chan, 27 April 2014 - 05:05 PM.

[Nate River]

I must agree in general principle.
 
Besides, I honestly have to admit I don't understood the whole "unhealthy relationship" outcry with regard to this story.
 
In a world where ongoing conflict has created generations of orphaned children, and those children along with others are in turn trained to be killers who are willing and able to kill or orphan other children, and children like Naruto and Gaara are used as hosts for demons and mistreated because of it, and other children like Sai are systematically groomed to be emotionless bots in the service of questionable leaders like Danzo, and others like Itachi are forced to kill their clans to save a village, etc., etc., etc....
 
The entire shinobi culture is unhealthy.  Killing one another is not an uncommon result of conflict or advancement, is it?  Isn't that the point?  Isn't that what this last war has been about?  How unhealthy their culture has become?
 
All of that is taken in stride as an accepted theme of the story, but the relationships -- specifically those involving Sasuke (and Hinata) -- are typically scorned as "unhealthy" and heaped with moral indignation.  I don't think that makes a lot of sense in context.
 
No one can find Sasuke more distasteful than I do, but Karin is no paragon of virtue either.  I've said it before and I'll say it again: Karin knew Sasuke was a snake when she picked him up.  She knows who he is, and what he is, and loves him in spite of it.  Maybe because of it.  We have no evidence that she wants him to be different than he is, or expects him to conform to some image she has of him.
 
Beyond a willingness to choose her, Karin doesn't seem interested in changing Sasuke.  They are both orphans who took an unhealthy path, both have willingly associated with Orochimaru, neither feel a strong allegiance to anything beyond what they want for themselves.  They are dark horses who are as well suited to each other as any other pairing in the story.
 
Do I think Sasuke/Karin is an unhealthy relationship?  From a real world view, yes.  From a Naruto world view, no, I don't think it's significantly more unhealthy than any of the other relationships of the current generation.
 
Has it really been healthy for Naruto to pine over Sakura while she has loved Sasuke?  Not only was she clueless about Naruto's love for her, but she couldn't see it because she was stuck on a narcissistic jerk like Sasuke.
 
Has it really been healthy for Hinata to obsess over Naruto while he has loved Sakura?  She nearly got herself killed confessing her love for him, and he has never managed to even comment on it.  Meanwhile his love for another girl who loves someone else is as strong as ever.
 
Has it really been healthy for Lee to be willing to protect Sakura with his life when she hasn't given him the slightest bit of encouragement, and prefers to daydream about a narcissistic jerk like Sasuke?
 
Has it really been healthy for Ino to feel any emotional attachment to Sasuke, a guy she doesn't really know and who has never given her the time of day?
 
Has it really been healthy for Obito to have obsessed and fantasized about Rin all these years?
 
My point is, I personally don't think Sasuke and Karin have a lock on "unhealthy."  Like I said, it's a reflection of the world they're living in, and part of what Naruto is trying to change.
 
Just my opinion.

I'd dislike Karin regardless.

What you suggests makes sense and I could at least swallow it if this was what he was doing. It's just not. My reading of the apology is that he wanted to move away from the issue as fast as possible. The real redemption is via Naruto, not a side-character who has outlived her purpose. So, it made it quick and reverted everything back to the original status quo, implications be damned. This is probably the nicest reading I can give it, and I really think that was the intent.

The primary difference between every example and Karin is that everyone other example gets treated seriously by the author. Karin is a David Letterman monologue now (and about as funny ).

The current reading is terrible, but if he's doing what you suggest then it brings the portrayal to a new level of reprehensible conduct on his part. He goes from plane old lazy (my reading) to completely tone deaf. We are being asked to laugh about. I'll never be able to get past this. The depth and attention provided to all the rest (save Ino) simply doesn't exist with SasuKarin. That depth and the seriousness taken with everyone else sets it apart from the travesty that is her character. It's bad without the comedy, but it's just plain old ugly when it's included.

I respect your opinion and insight, but on this particular issue I cannot reconcile your argument with what he is putting on the page. If he is intending what you say....then he's more tin eared than I every imagined.

[BlueStarSaber]

That's true, but let's keep in mind that Sasuke is still a young, impulsive teenager. It's difficult to judge how he'll be as a grown adult so it's not really fair to say whether he should or shouldn't have kids. Also, no guarantee his kids will be anything like him given that his kids will inherit traits from Karin as well. Kids aren't necessarily doomed to become their parents.

I don't think its right to kill a child just for the fear that people think they will cause a threat just because the crimes their parent/s committed. Killing a child just what their parents did sounds like something Danzo would do or what Pain did to anyone connected to Hanzo.

[Kanae]

We will have flashbacks for sure.
Especially about that thing Suigetsu was talking about.

Definitely! From what I've seen, language-wise all things seem to point out to Suigetsu referring to Sasuke and Karin's meeting in the FoD. But that brings the question of how did he know that in the first place, so eve if that were the case, we're still basically on square 1
 

If he had made more of an effort to treat it seriously first, before trying to bring in the humor, I think it would not have had such a jarring effect on me.

I believe so as well. 
  

What you suggests makes sense and I could at least swallow it if this was what he was doing. It's just not. My reading of the apology is that he wanted to move away from the issue as fast as possible. The real redemption is via Naruto, not a side-character who has outlived her purpose. So, it made it quick and reverted everything back to the original status quo, implications be damned. This is probably the nicest reading I can give it, and I really think that was the intent.

If Karin had really outlived her purpose, as you say, then she would've written off the story already in the 4 opportunities Kishimoto has had to do so. Instead, he not only brings her back but canonizes her Uzumaki heritage and gives her a power-up that - yet again - highlights how special Karin's chakra is. The manga is not over yet and she and Taka still have roles to play. You can dislike them as much as you want, but don't write them off when Kishi is obviously keeping them around for a reason.

Yeah, the real redemption will be via Naruto. But I guarantee that Sasuke's other bonds will also play a role in his upcoming character development; Karin and Taka included.

Lastly, if he wanted to move away from the issue as fast as possible, he would have actually tried to make us forget about it. So, wouldn't you say that Karin bringing it up left and right defeats that purpose?

Whether it's brought up in an humorous context or not doesn't matter in that regard. What matters is that it's still being brought up.
 

The primary difference between every example and Karin is that everyone other example gets treated seriously by the author. Karin is a David Letterman monologue now (and about as funny ).

You are giving more weight to Karin's comic relief moments and her eccentricities than to her character as a whole. That side of Karin is a character trait; but it in no way encompasses her nor does it mean she has no character depth.

Saying that is to deliberately overlook moments like these:
 

two manga pages

To name a few. Writing Karin off as a character without depth or just as a source of comic relief is making the same mistake the guards did in chapter 574; they let themselves be fooled by her and Kishi had her use that to her advantage. 
 

Edited by Kanae, 27 April 2014 - 05:43 PM.

[shisui]

Sasukarin doesn't have any merits. It's only supported in this forum because a large majority is so scared of SasuSaku, they immediately sideship SasuKarin as some sort of security blanket. There's so much people can say against SasuKarin on this forum.

 

I'd dislike Karin regardless.

What you suggests makes sense and I could at least swallow it if this was what he was doing. It's just not. My reading of the apology is that he wanted to move away from the issue as fast as possible. The real redemption is via Naruto, not a side-character who has outlived her purpose. So, it made it quick and reverted everything back to the original status quo, implications be damned. This is probably the nicest reading I can give it, and I really think that was the intent.

The primary difference between every example and Karin is that everyone other example gets treated seriously by the author. Karin is a David Letterman monologue now (and about as funny ).

The current reading is terrible, but if he's doing what you suggest then it brings the portrayal to a new level of reprehensible conduct on his part. He goes from plane old lazy (my reading) to completely tone deaf. We are being asked to laugh about. I'll never be able to get past this. The depth and attention provided to all the rest (save Ino) simply doesn't exist with SasuKarin. That depth and the seriousness taken with everyone else sets it apart from the travesty that is her character. It's bad without the comedy, but it's just plain old ugly when it's included.

I respect your opinion and insight, but on this particular issue I cannot reconcile your argument with what he is putting on the page. If he is intending what you say....then he's more tin eared than I every imagined.

 

This here.

 

[BlueStarSaber]

Sasukarin doesn't have any merits. It's only supported in this forum because a large majority is so scared of SasuSaku, they immediately sideship SasuKarin as some sort of security blanket. There's so much people can say against SasuKarin on this forum.

I don't sideship sasukarin just because I'm scared of SasuSaku (I'm not even scared of it at all), I ship it cause I like the two together. I originally didn't ship them when I first started shipping Narusaku, just so I wouldn't be accused of doing so.

But then on Narutobase I saw Chatte post a link of one of kanae's analysis, I got intrigued I decided to look it up. I was impressed with what I saw, while not fully supporting it at the time I decried to give it a chance. By the time I came to fully supporting it chapters 662 & 663 came out, showed me that Mr kishi does consider this pair serious if he drew alongside NaruSaku in those chapters.

Edited by BlueStarSaber, 27 April 2014 - 08:10 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

For the record, there are fans that ship this before shipping NS. Please don't think everyone is forced to ship this. It's not fair to even call it that. Even with people who are debating what do people like this pairing, they don't say it because of competitors. They just find it a foundation for themselves. Let's all be fair, ok.

[sushi.]

Sideshipping..uugh

 

More like sistershipping.

[shisui]

I don't sideship sasukarin just because I'm scared of SasuSaku (I'm not even scared of it at all), I ship it cause I like the two together. I originally didn't ship them when I first started shipping Narusaku, just so I wouldn't be accused of doing so.

But then on Narutobase I saw Chatte post a link of one of kanae's analysis, I got intrigued I decided to look it up. I was impressed with what I saw, while not fully supporting it at the time I decried to give it a chance. By the time I came to fully supporting it chapters 662 & 663 came out, showed me that Mr kishi does consider this pair serious if he drew alongside NaruSaku in those chapters.

 

You're not scared of SasuSaku? You must be part of the 1%.

 

SK manifesto cannot stand on its own without mentioning NaruSaku. You couldn't explain why you took it seriously outside of the NaruSaku parallels a few chapters ago. Most that defend SK say they do so because Kishi "linked" it with NaruSaku, not because of its individual merits. It's blatant sideship.

Edited by GoogleIsMyFriend, 27 April 2014 - 09:29 PM.

[Kanae]

^ What. But, I was the one who wrote the manifesto and I didn't mention NaruSaku at all?     Heck even when it came to 662 I barely threw in a line mentioning the parallel, because while I obviously ship NaruSaku and am 100% they will be canon (whereas Sasuke lives or stays single or not, so you can count me in that supposed "1%" who is not at all threatened by SS - way to underestimate this fandom and overestimate SS, btw) there are NaruHina fans who ship SasuKarin. 

 

Honestly, please stop generalizing. 

Edited by Kanae, 27 April 2014 - 09:47 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

But none of us were thinking that until those chapters happened, hence me being surprised about it. Again, there are people that ship this before NS. It's not our fault that Kishi did that. I didn't ask Kishi to link them for me. Hell, I don't ship SK but I can understand.

1%? Who made a poll?

[luffyq1]

 

You're not scared of SasuSaku? You must be part of the 1%.

 

SK manifesto cannot stand on its own without mentioning NaruSaku. You couldn't explain why you took it seriously outside of the NaruSaku parallels a few chapters ago. Most that defend SK say they do so because Kishi "linked" it with NaruSaku, not because of its individual merits. It's blatant sideship.

Lately, majority of arguments I see on why SK is better than SS is because Sasuke treats Karin differently from how he used to treat Sakura, which isn't saying much considering Sasuke has been shown to be asexual.

 

Naruto & Hokage take precedence over chicks in his life.

[shisui]

^ What. But, I was the one who wrote the manifesto and I didn't mention NaruSaku at all?     Heck even when it came to 662 I barely threw in a line mentioning the parallel, because while I obviously ship NaruSaku and am 100% they will be canon (whereas Sasuke lives or stays single or not, so you can count me in that supposed "1%" who is not at all threatened by SS - way to underestimate this fandom and overestimate SS, btw) there are NaruHina fans who ship SasuKarin. 

 

You've stated, many times, since NaruSaku is canon, what to do with Sasuke. You know what I mean. Don't make me read that wretched thing again. I still get headaches just remembering it.

 

 

Honestly, please stop generalizing.

Since you're asking so nicely.

[BlueStarSaber]

 

You're not scared of SasuSaku? You must be part of the 1%.

 

SK manifesto cannot stand on its own without mentioning NaruSaku. You couldn't explain why you took it seriously outside of the NaruSaku parallels a few chapters ago. Most that defend SK say they do so because Kishi "linked" it with NaruSaku, not because of its individual merits. It's blatant sideship.

 

1% their a lot more than that. 

 

I fully came to support it just a while before 662 & 663 came out, I was surprised that we got NS and SK at the same time as much as any other fan. It has plenty of moments that are serious without NaruSaku in it, 662 & 663 are the first to actually have the two together. When Sasuke says he needs her, saving each others lives in the Bee fight, the forest of death flashback are examples of individual moments. What I menat was Mr Kishi considers it just as important as NaruSaku when he drew them together.

 

Lately, majority of arguments I see on why SK is better than SS is because Sasuke treats Karin differently from how he used to treat Sakura, which isn't saying much considering Sasuke has been shown to be asexual.

 

Naruto & Hokage take precedence over chicks in his life.

 

The manga nor Sasuke has never stated he is asexual, just the fandom. He just more focused on his goal as an avenger to think of romance.