181 replies to this topic

[HauntedCake]

What does red herring mean???

[Branden]

What does red herring mean???

http://bit.ly/12lOoqZ

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

http://bit.ly/12lOoqZ

Let me google it for you, you didnt even needed to post with shorter links it was kinda obvious that someome would push it.

[HauntedCake]

http://bit.ly/12lOoqZ

I really don't think the trolling was necessary....

Thank you anyway

[Branden]

I really don't think the trolling was necessary....

Thank you anyway

Sorry if you took offence, that wasn't my intention

[HauntedCake]

Sorry if you took offence, that wasn't my intention

Wasn't offended at all.

Nvm its all ok

[CloudMountainJuror]

On DA after 615 the guy posted
The Biggest F Y NS fans
P.S: No offense intended to NH fans or NS fans.

So I guess the Naruto passion is still in you but for some reason you don't want to displayed here am I right?

Well, the NaruSaku passion is still in me for the most part. I still like the pairing.

[T XD]

IMO :

Hinata is a character who's purpose is to use her crush on Naruto to push the plot forward and act as a red herring for NaruSaku.

At first, I thought the same but then I realized that it's the idea that gets to a pairing fan. In general, she's a side character that has a crush on the protagonist like many other manga.

But, there's something from what you said which I think that after Kishi knew how much Hinata affects the pairings fandom in the west, he began using her as red herring. I believe that Hinata wasn't meant to get this much screen time in 615. Though, I could be wrong if he wanted originally to give her this big development.

[KnS]

But, there's something from what you said which I think that after Kishi knew how much Hinata affects the pairings fandom in the west, he began using her as red herring.

I think it's also possible that Kishimoto introduced Hinata with the specific intention of using her as a red herring or pairing distraction. Unless he is psychic, he couldn't have anticipated her popularity -- a lot of authors end up astonished by the way certain characters they've created become fandom favorites -- but that doesn't mean he didn't plan to employ Hinata in that way from the beginning. It would just mean he didn't expect that creative decision to be as effective or divisive as it has turned out.

I believe that Hinata wasn't meant to get this much screen time in 615. Though, I could be wrong if he wanted originally to give her this big development.

Well, for the sake of argument let's imagine that Kishimoto did introduce Hinata primarily as (A) a pairing herring (lol); and (B) as a secondary character who reflects Naruto's rags-to-riches growth in confidence and respect. If that was his intention she wouldn't get a ton of panel time, just enough to keep her two purposes relevant.

And that's basically what we've seen. Hinata has had, what, three moments of significant focus in the story? (1) The Chuunin Exams, (2) Pain's invasion, and (3) #615? Right?

(1) The Chuunin Exams established both her purposes. (A) Her obvious crush on Naruto and his willingness to champion her weakness set her up as a potential pairing herring; and (B) her ineffectiveness as a ninja set her up to be changed by Naruto's nindo.

(2) Pain's invasion reinforced both her purposes. (A) Her confession of love muddied the pairing waters, especially since both Naruto AND Sakura became aware of Hinata's feelings at that time; and (B) although she remained completely ineffective as a ninja, she showed bravery and a desire to be strong even if she wasn't yet.

(3) #615 brings Hinata's two original purposes full circle. (A) She got her wish to stand by Naruto's side and hold his hand, and again her forthright Naruto-centric actions were shown to have a second impact on both Naruto AND Sakura (her shocked expression), thereby providing another timely prodding for NS as the manga heads toward its conclusion; and (B) Hinata had the bravery and willingness to fight effectively on the front lines against powerful enemies, very likely impressing her father in terms of her response to Neji's death.

While I agree that elements of #615 felt forced -- mostly due to contriving a crisis of confidence for Naruto when he had theoretically already worked through all that -- giving Hinata a focus like that wasn't unprecedented. I see #615 as the bookend to her sudden focus during Pain's invasion. Both feel awkward, but both combine the two purposes Kishimoto outlined for her from the beginning: pairing herring, and weak ninja who will find strength through Naruto's example.

The fact that Hinata became so popular as a character, and so divisive as a pairing player, only made it more likely that Kishimoto would give her a big moment -- especially if her character is truly being resolved.

If Kishimoto follows through on his own painstaking foreshadowing of NS, Hinata cannot end up with Naruto. The best he can give her -- and her fans -- is a big, shining moment at Naruto's side before she retakes her place as the secondary character she was designed to be.

Just my opinion.

[James S Cassidy]

My answer to you is the one I bolded above.

It actually isn't. The bolded is a generalized statement on the complexity that is Writer vs Fan. However, my question to you was more specific. Why is that that my view of Hinata is purely based on my own interpretation, but both you and Awes make it out like all Sakura's scenes were because Kishi did it wrong. What if Kishi has been writing Hinata wrong this whole time? If he intended to make her a strong independent women, then he failed at it. I don't see her as anything more. I could argue that Kishi did exactly what he wanted and the the fans are wrong this entire time.

Kishi wanted to make Sakura the heroine, but they are too busy looking at Hinata. This is why I think the misinterpretation is more on Hinata than it is on Sakura. As Kishimoto said "You say Hinata Hinata and I am like 'She is not Hinata'"
Kishi might be wanting to downplay Hinata herself and be nothing more than a side character and the fans are trying to push her up the ranks to be as important as Naruto himself.

So, whatever action I am guilty of, NH fans (for the most part) have done a lot worse and for far less reasons.

My problem with our side of the claim is that what Kishi's said must be taken as absolute fact. I don't mind that. But the real problem I have is the fact that Kishi hasn't backed up his claims as well as he could have. Accepting his words as fact is one thing, but if we want to accept those words, Kishi needs to show he can back up those claims.

Is that Kishi's fault or ours? Maybe we expect too much or maybe people downplay Sakura's involvement. Again, I could argue that people are too busy reading the manga on a chapter by chapter basis while you really should be reading it volume by volume or the manga as a whole. I mean 615 happened and all of a sudden all the fans started to think that NH has been happening since part 1 which we all know is bull. We all know this kind of interactions have been happening just recently, not all the way back in part 1.

So going back to writer vs fan, I think 615 has been interpreted way too seriously. All of a sudden we starting making of facts that weren't there and I have to wonder who really is overreacting. You look at the people who downplay it, I am looking at the people overplaying.

If you really think about it, Hinata has even less scenes that part 1 Sakura has. Just part 1. Not even counting part 2 Sakura scenes. I could imagine the NH fans doing exactly what NS has been doing since 615: "We want more Hinata interaction. We want Hinata on screen. We want to see Hinata fight, et cetera."

Think about this on another hand too. If Kishi were to back up those claims now...NS would be canon by now and knowing him and what many say "He is saving the canon pairing to the end." This might very well be true.

615-617 is iffy at best. I accept it as a possibility that NH will be developed from there on thus, becoming canon. Unlike some people here who keep trying to downplay the moment and its possibilities onwards. It's just as bad as facing NH fans who believe their pairing is canon no matter what.

As true as this is, I see many NS fans who take it way too seriously. Yourself included. A "Possibility" is not "fact." Anything is a possibility in a story, but just because of what happened in 615-617 does not mean this is going to be like this for the rest of the manga. Just because NH got a moment does not mean it is canon right off the bat. NS is the same way. This is the problem. I don't see NH getting anymore scenes like this. I don't see any thing more than this happening with this pairing.

As for downplaying it: Hinata's confession was downplayed by the manga itself on several occasions. Look how seriously people took Hinata's confession and then look how Kishi downplayed it. It was never mentioned ever again. Naruto downplayed the hand holding in favor of saying that Neji will always be in his heart. If Kishi himself won't take it seriously, how am I supposed to? Maybe that's the point; we are not supposed to take it seriously. Maybe we are supposed to downplay it. I at least have reasons to downplay it given Kishi track record with Hinata.

This is why I downplay it, because Naruto downplayed it. He didn't see the hand-holding as anything more than giving chakra. He didn't see the hand-holding romantic. He just held her hand and that was it. If the hand-holding guaranteed canon, why didn't the Sakura's hug mean more?

You ask me why I downplay the hand-holding scene and I have to ask: "Why was Sakura's hug downplayed? "That's totally a sibling moment." Why was Sakura's feeding scene downplayed? Why was Sakura's confession downplayed?" I downplayed 615, this is true, but NH fans and Hinata fans have downplayed every single Sakura scene since the beginning. Some without even rational thought. So why am I wrong for downplaying 615?

Both pairings have come down to a single point: Naruto. Who is he gonna choose? We know Sakura loves Naruto, we know Hinata loves Naruto. Which one is he gonna accept? I am downplaying all scenes (NS and NH) unless I see how Naruto reacts. If he reacts any differently than he has, then I will hold it more seriously.

But now the million-dollar question is: will Kishi actually develop NH from Naruto's side?? we'll see.

The 2 million dollar question is: "Why didn't you start that kind of development much earlier?"
The 3 million dollar question is: "Why can't you make Hinata anything more than just a leech off Naruto?"

Now, the "Who is more to blame: the creator for not making it clearer or the readers for not seeing it?" debate is more complex. It is certainly possible he could have made the matter clearer... but it also is true that fanboys/girls -specially shippers- often only see what they want seeing.

Boomstick: "Giving credit to the saying that you only see what you want to believe."
- Goku vs Superman fight about Clark Kent.

I assume that you know that when I was talking about hating and bashing characters I was not talking about you. I merely was making clear my opinion on Hinata was not based on hatred towards a fictional character and I was not bashing her. I was not addressing to anyone specifically.

I know what you meant, believe me. I was just remarking the sad truth that because I am a NS fan it seems like I have no right to judge Hinata unless I want to be called biased. I can't criticize Kishi writing on her or her character without someone telling me "You just think Sakua is better" when really they are guilty of this same crime.

I pride myself on thinking that I judge each character fairly and I try to base each character by what they do and what their role plays. For example, I am actually disappointed in Naruto when 615 rolled around and I have actually made several comments that Naruto was a much stronger character in part 1 than he was in part. Part 1 Naruto would not let the death of his friend force him to give up like that. He would have have stood tall and fought back whether in anger or determination.

So while I am talking about Hinata here, she is not the only character I found disappointment in. The only characters I am actually feel pride in is Sakura and Neji who despite everything still stood up for what they believed. Regardless if they failed, they felt content with it.

In closing really,
StrikertheNoble said it best:
"My point is why should we care if she doesn`t."

[Awes9]

@Awes and Codus
I want to ask you both this question of inquiry. Why is it that if I interpreting Hinata as this, I am wrong because I am interpreting it wrong. However, when Sakura is interpreted wrong and many fans misinterpret her on several occasions, it is Kishi's fault for not depicting it right? What if Kishi's at fault for me interpreting Hinata the way I see it or likewise what if it is the fans fault for interpreting Sakura wrong?

Where is the legitimate argument and where does bias play in? I can say that if no matter what Kishi does you can't see a character any other way, then it is bias. If people say that Hinata is perfect and don't even admit that she makes mistakes even when Hinata herself says she does.....you're biased. Same thing for Sakura.

I love Sakura, but I know what mistakes she has done and I also know what good she has done.

To close out, let me ask this. What is worse? An idea based on several moments and incidents in the entire manga or saying a pairing is canon based on one scene that is ambiguous? Ch. 615 means NH is canon? I find that to be a bigger misinterpretation than my own view of Hinata. At least mine has merits and thought process.



Sadly, sometimes people confuse criticism with bashing. So, it becomes hard when I want to criticize Hinata's character and I am put in the "basher" territory meanwhile when people bash Sakura I am supposed to keep quiet.



It has been beaten to death on all fronts. Luckily it has been down to two. NS or NH. Sakura is the only one that has shown change. Naruto has not. NS is also an unrequited love. I don't think Kishi is "forced" to only write in a certain way, but it is quite possible he didn't want her depicted any other way. I don't know. All I have is the manga and in the manga without her love for Naruto, there is nothing else about her to warrant merit. It's sad, but it is true.



Fair enough. Like I said, it is not all negative, but....Didn't Sakura do the same thing? Sakura improved herself just as much also based around Naruto's nindo and attitude and she did it all even before she loved him. And again, she is ignored for this. So, the question I have with this is can Hinata improve without Naruto? Probably yes.

I want to give this to you and say "You are right," but a gut feeling has me saying "There is not enough info to show how much stronger she has gotten because of it seeing how she has lost all fights she has been in." I will say this, it has made her more confident. So, in a certain way, yes you are right. Skills? Again, not enough info. She really hasn't done anything huge on her own strength and skill.

As I said, part 1 Hinata was not really a problem in my eyes nor is part 2 Hinata either. It's the fans themselves who are the biggest problem. They give Hinata WAAAY too much credit and refuse to see the truth based off pure biased. "She was always there for Naruto." No, she wasn't. She has very few scenes and none of them really push Hinata to her brink. Whenever she is on screen, she is the damsel in distress. Even in 615, Neji had to save her.

I want to see her stand up on her own for once. Pretend Naruto didn't exist and let's see what she can do. Pretend she doesn't love Naruto at all. Sadly, we may never get this and it's a pity because I wanted to love Hinata's character. I really did.

Does she have an importance beyond her love for Naruto? She is a side-character, but some side-characters have made impacts. Just to ask, how much of an impact would she make if she never loved Naruto at all?

I will admit, her comment about Naruto's hand was not my cup of tea. She is shown defending Neji right after the hand holding incident, but one would think that you'd not be focused on hand holding when your close cousin has just died.


That's what ruined the scene for me and I was extremely disappointed. It's not always about pairings. I wish more people would see this.



Most NH fans I've talked to don't think she does. Like I said, they think if NH doesn't happen Hinata would self-destruct. I don't agree with this, but I will say this is a message the manga presents a lot. Not the Hinata self-destruction, but that obsession can lead to self-destruction.

If NS does happen, would Hinata move on? Secretly, this is another reason why I want NS to become canon and not NH. I want to prove the NH fans wrong and say that she is independent and doesn't need Naruto to find strength.

I want her to be known for more than just because "She loves Naruto."

"I want to ask you both this question of inquiry. Why is it that if I interpreting Hinata as this, I am wrong because I am interpreting it wrong. However, when Sakura is interpreted wrong and many fans misinterpret her on several occasions, it is Kishi's fault for not depicting it right? What if Kishi's at fault for me interpreting Hinata the way I see it or likewise what if it is the fans fault for interpreting Sakura wrong? "
I don't know how this has anything to do with me ? the only thing I said is to not be at the same level some Hinata and NH fans are by downplaying Sakura and acting as if Hinata is some kind of godess. I get the impression since some Hinata and NH fans are twisting the manga to fit their own views then that justifies us twisiting it too to make Hinata appear worse than she is. As for the opinion of Hinata fans and NH fans I don't care Hinata is for me a flat boring one dimensional character who holds absolutely no interest I just don't think that's fair to say she is selfish just because of Kishi's lousy writing because she is not selfish, I may be wrong and Hinata really don't care about anyone else than Naruto but I don't think that's the case. As for Sakura I think she is a beautifully written character and she displays a great character development troughout the serie I just regret that Kishi has neglected her so much, and yes I think it's the fans fault for interpreting Sakura wrong, not Kishi's fault at all in this case. I still don't get what this has to do with me I never said it was Kishi's fault for depicting Sakura wrong, I honestly don't get what this has to do with me.

[StrikerTheNoble]

It actually isn't. The bolded is a generalized statement on the complexity that is Writer vs Fan. However, my question to you was more specific. Why is that that my view of Hinata is purely based on my own interpretation, but both you and Awes make it out like all Sakura's scenes were because Kishi did it wrong. What if Kishi has been writing Hinata wrong this whole time? If he intended to make her a strong independent women, then he failed at it. I don't see her as anything more. I could argue that Kishi did exactly what he wanted and the the fans are wrong this entire time.

Kishi wanted to make Sakura the heroine, but they are too busy looking at Hinata. This is why I think the misinterpretation is more on Hinata than it is on Sakura. As Kishimoto said "You say Hinata Hinata and I am like 'She is not Hinata'"
Kishi might be wanting to downplay Hinata herself and be nothing more than a side character and the fans are trying to push her up the ranks to be as important as Naruto himself.

So, whatever action I am guilty of, NH fans (for the most part) have done a lot worse and for far less reasons.



Is that Kishi's fault or ours? Maybe we expect too much or maybe people downplay Sakura's involvement. Again, I could argue that people are too busy reading the manga on a chapter by chapter basis while you really should be reading it volume by volume or the manga as a whole. I mean 615 happened and all of a sudden all the fans started to think that NH has been happening since part 1 which we all know is bull. We all know this kind of interactions have been happening just recently, not all the way back in part 1.

So going back to writer vs fan, I think 615 has been interpreted way too seriously. All of a sudden we starting making of facts that weren't there and I have to wonder who really is overreacting. You look at the people who downplay it, I am looking at the people overplaying.

If you really think about it, Hinata has even less scenes that part 1 Sakura has. Just part 1. Not even counting part 2 Sakura scenes. I could imagine the NH fans doing exactly what NS has been doing since 615: "We want more Hinata interaction. We want Hinata on screen. We want to see Hinata fight, et cetera."

Think about this on another hand too. If Kishi were to back up those claims now...NS would be canon by now and knowing him and what many say "He is saving the canon pairing to the end." This might very well be true.



As true as this is, I see many NS fans who take it way too seriously. Yourself included. A "Possibility" is not "fact." Anything is a possibility in a story, but just because of what happened in 615-617 does not mean this is going to be like this for the rest of the manga. Just because NH got a moment does not mean it is canon right off the bat. NS is the same way. This is the problem. I don't see NH getting anymore scenes like this. I don't see any thing more than this happening with this pairing.

As for downplaying it: Hinata's confession was downplayed by the manga itself on several occasions. Look how seriously people took Hinata's confession and then look how Kishi downplayed it. It was never mentioned ever again. Naruto downplayed the hand holding in favor of saying that Neji will always be in his heart. If Kishi himself won't take it seriously, how am I supposed to? Maybe that's the point; we are not supposed to take it seriously. Maybe we are supposed to downplay it. I at least have reasons to downplay it given Kishi track record with Hinata.

This is why I downplay it, because Naruto downplayed it. He didn't see the hand-holding as anything more than giving chakra. He didn't see the hand-holding romantic. He just held her hand and that was it. If the hand-holding guaranteed canon, why didn't the Sakura's hug mean more?

You ask me why I downplay the hand-holding scene and I have to ask: "Why was Sakura's hug downplayed? "That's totally a sibling moment." Why was Sakura's feeding scene downplayed? Why was Sakura's confession downplayed?" I downplayed 615, this is true, but NH fans and Hinata fans have downplayed every single Sakura scene since the beginning. Some without even rational thought. So why am I wrong for downplaying 615?

Both pairings have come down to a single point: Naruto. Who is he gonna choose? We know Sakura loves Naruto, we know Hinata loves Naruto. Which one is he gonna accept? I am downplaying all scenes (NS and NH) unless I see how Naruto reacts. If he reacts any differently than he has, then I will hold it more seriously.



The 2 million dollar question is: "Why didn't you start that kind of development much earlier?"
The 3 million dollar question is: "Why can't you make Hinata anything more than just a leech off Naruto?"



Boomstick: "Giving credit to the saying that you only see what you want to believe."
- Goku vs Superman fight about Clark Kent.



I know what you meant, believe me. I was just remarking the sad truth that because I am a NS fan it seems like I have no right to judge Hinata unless I want to be called biased. I can't criticize Kishi writing on her or her character without someone telling me "You just think Sakua is better" when really they are guilty of this same crime.

I pride myself on thinking that I judge each character fairly and I try to base each character by what they do and what their role plays. For example, I am actually disappointed in Naruto when 615 rolled around and I have actually made several comments that Naruto was a much stronger character in part 1 than he was in part. Part 1 Naruto would not let the death of his friend force him to give up like that. He would have have stood tall and fought back whether in anger or determination.

So while I am talking about Hinata here, she is not the only character I found disappointment in. The only characters I am actually feel pride in is Sakura and Neji who despite everything still stood up for what they believed. Regardless if they failed, they felt content with it.

In closing really,
StrikertheNoble said it best:
"My point is why should we care if she doesn`t."

I got quoted by James? I feel honored thank you.

I also found this:

Edited by StrikerTheNoble, 06 April 2013 - 11:44 PM.

[Gravenimage]

I got quoted by James? I feel honored thank you.

I also found this:

lol.

[James S Cassidy]

I got quoted by James? I feel honored thank you.

I also found this:

hah. I love Novanator's stuff.

As for quoting you, you made a good point Striker. Hinata doesn't seem very...motivated to do better for her clan or anything beyond doing better for Naruto. If Hinata is unwilling to care about it, then you can see that reflect on the fanbase. They ignore it too. So, you know it's just one of those facts.

I don't think Hinata is the kind of girl to outright say "I don't care," but she does kind of not focus on those things as much as one might think she would have. It's a huge problem.

This is why I like Sakura's confession so much better than Hinata's. She was willing to put her own wants and needs aside for Naruto.

[nia1994]

hummm.... hinata, i think her character is ok-ish, i kinda find her boring
I've read some of the comments on fan vs kishi interpretation and it's quite an interesting debate i do believe that hinata is seriously overrated as a character but i think that because she's one of the few female characters that can likable personality, soft, shy cute type (and has bigger boobs ) I also do believe that sakura's moments are down played, especially in part one for example: she was the first one to acknowledge Narutos dream to become hokage ref, chapter 43

[PhantomCat]

I like Hinata's character but I feel fans expect to much from her. She really don't know anything about Naruto personally. She don't understand his pain and stuff. I don't think she even know about the whole Sasuke issue nor do she care about it. All she knows is his nindo and she follows it. If anything I think Naruto inspires Hinata more then she loves him.

To me she is a side character with a one sided love for Naruto. If she was made for anything then she should've turned up more often or have her very own arc. Hinata also should have some kind of importance to the story as well. I don't think she was meant to get so much attention but it happened.

[Phantom_999]

Exactly. Good point my fellow "Phantom"

[TrueSacrifice]

Hinata is nice. Too nice to be truly interesting I'm afraid.

I suspect her role in the story is simply to motivate Naruto and to be someone that admires him no matter what from the start. Later on she has developed into a possible love interest for Naruto yet I believe that this is only to provide friction and dramatic tension for Naruto and Sakura ending up together. Her primary motivation is still Naruto though. Her undying affection for him is sweet but is just simply not that interesting.

What I don't understand is her popularity. Is it because she's shy or the underdog? Or is it because of her chest?

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Hinata is nice. Too nice to be truly interesting I'm afraid.

I suspect her role in the story is simply to motivate Naruto and to be someone that admires him no matter what from the start. Later on she has developed into a possible love interest for Naruto yet I believe that this is only to provide friction and dramatic tension for Naruto and Sakura ending up together. Her primary motivation is still Naruto though. Her undying affection for him is sweet but is just simply not that interesting.

What I don't understand is her popularity. Is it because she's shy or the underdog? Or is it because of her chest?

The latter.

[Shadow1275]

Nothing against Hinata but even I was creeped out by this: