182 replies to this topic

[merryGOflava]

why did sakura believe naruto was out to torment her anyway?

[ciardha]

why did sakura believe naruto was out to torment her anyway?

See above- she knew she wasn't pretty with her huge forehead, and didn't believe she was anything a boy would be attracted to. Naruto was always pranking, so him always calling her "Sakura chan" in front of the other kids just came across to Sakura as Naruto tormenting her for laughs. She had been relentless tormented by the other girls about her forehead until Ino stepped in. Ino stepping in just stopped the overt tormenting it didn't make the girls have any higher opinion of her, nor did her very high intelligence, shown in her consistently high scores on assignments.

[tricksie]

See above- she knew she wasn't pretty with her huge forehead, and didn't believe she was anything a boy would be attracted to. Naruto was always pranking, so him always calling her "Sakura chan" in front of the other kids just came across to Sakura as Naruto tormenting her for laughs. She had been relentless tormented by the other girls about her forehead until Ino stepped in. Ino stepping in just stopped the overt tormenting it didn't make the girls have any higher opinion of her, nor did her very high intelligence, shown in her consistently high scores on assignments.

Yeah, in that respect, Sakura has always reminded me of Hermione. Not the lovely movie version, but the frizzy-haired, big-toothed girl from books one, two and three.

[PachucoDesigns]

Where was Sakura "particularly mean" to Naruto?

I don't know. How about all of those times when she called him an idiot or annoying, or punched him in the face for being "stupid," or punched him for being "perverted." And please, do not throw the Tsundere excuse at me. I know what it is. I don't like it. Don't tell me it's for comedy. I don't find it funny, and no other man should. If the genders were reversed, there would be outrage. It's a double standard, and I don't take it lightly.

Nowhere in the manga, in fact quite the opposite, even early on in part 1. Naruto hadn't been particularly loveable to Sakura, and considering his well known reputation as a pranker (the only thing he was known for, other than being a hyperactive, loud mouthed braggart who was basically the polar opposite of what he bragged) Sakura could only take his constant "Sakura chan" in the Academy as mocking her.

Yeah, and where was he when all of the kids of the village treated him like a loser and a nuisance? Where was she when the adults of the village treated him like a monster? Where was she when he had no parents, no friends, no one to love him? You wouldn't call that inconsiderate? I sure would. Of course he acts out as a prankster. How else would be be noticed? How else would she even see him? It's been stated as much in the manga and in the anime countless times, and it's even been established as a critical plot point and staple of his character development. Why was it acceptable for her to see him as undeserving of even the slightest amount of affection or dignity, and yet totally unacceptable for him to try and get her attention by whatever means he could?

She says as much in chapter 3 to the henged Naruto. From Viz's official translation- "If he had his way, I'd never find love or happiness...he ruins everything...he enjoys tormenting me! Sakura saying she "hated" Naruto in chapter 4 makes perfect sense if you look at those words.

Exactly, and it's because she didn't bother to think of how he felt. Which is why she had that look of sharp, painful revalation when Sasuke chastised her for it and pointed out the errors of her thinking. She couldn't even bring herself to be nicer to him even when she knew that she should. It took time before she was, and only after he went above and beyond the call of duty to earn it.

She believed Naruto was deliberately tormenting her, making a mock of her, and she was seen as very low status by the other girls as it was- the object of tormenting when she started the Academy. Ino's protection only stopped the outright tormenting by the other girls, they still viewed her as lower than them on the day she graduated the Academy (remember in chapter 3, the girls muttering "who does she think she is?!" when she sat down beside Sasuke.) Even Ino, despite her friendship with Sakura still treated Sakura as having a much lower status than herself.

And Naruto was treated that way and worse by the entire village, to the point where the vast majority of them would rather have seen him dead, and would happily murder him if they thought the Hokage would allow it. If she thought it was so important for him to respect her feelings, regardless of how he felt about her, then why was she not practicing what she preached? Why did she not take the time to understand how much he suffered?

We see in chapter 3 Sakura was searching for someone to accept her, and her dream was the boy she crushed on, Sasuke, would. Naruto notes on learning this that he now understands why he likes Sakura, she is searching for the same thing he is. It looks like you misunderstood that Sakura didn't actually "hate" Naruto in chapter 4, she hated what she believed was his deliberate tormenting her, making her a object of Naruto's mocking.

She turned down his advances without even bothering to consider whether or not he was sincere because she spent precisely no time trying to undersand how he felt. She didn't bother to consider that he suffered the same thing she has on a much larger, more dangerous and depressing scale. She was just one more person he was seeking attention from, even with the addition of loving her. So if she understood how that felt, then why did she never bother to consider his feelings?

Her chapter 4 words are forgotten by both Naruto and Sakura in the very next chapter. Naruto clearly was intelligent enough to quickly realize that it was Sakura's perception of his behavior that she hated, not himself.

Was he? Well, if that's the case, then why did he not realize it sooner since they have so much history of this? I find it much more likely that he is persistent, and intends to keep his chin up, determined to win her over no matter how many times she turns him down, hits him, or even if she does hate him. You know, sorta like how he was determined to be recognized by everyone else in the village at the time.

Sakura blushes at Naruto's heroics and may be figuring out already that his bragging is just a cover, to not show how afraid he really is. She acts instantly, without a moment's hesitation to do what she can do to save Naruto's life from what she believed was an imminent threat. In Chapter 10, when Zabuza attacks Sakura throws herself on top of Naruto to protect him, no thought about how much in danger she was putting herself in by that action (nor does she think of her crush Sasuke's welfare at this moment, it's all about saving Naruto from danger.

I'm not saying that she doesn't care about him, nor am I saying that she doesn't appreciate what he has done for her. I never said that. Clearly she does, more and more as the series went on. But even so, how does her caring for him and appreciating him make the way she used to treat him any more acceptable? How is it justified? In fact, how does it not make her past behavior even more abhorent in hindsight?

In chapter 11, she realizes she is having some kind of romantic feelings about Naruto- she doesn't react with repulsion, nor even deny it, it just confuses her... Then we have her numerous actions to support or protect Naruto during the Chunin exams, she even defends Naruto to Sasuke and lets Sasuke know in no uncertain terms that she thinks Naruto is a better ninja than Sasuke. This is all in part 1, in part 2 it's her ironclad rule- to be there for Naruto in every way.

Once again, this has nothing to do with whether or not she preferred Sasuke to Naruto then. It has nothing to do with whether or not she cares for Naruto. It has everything to do with how she used to treat him, how he's proven himself to her and earned her respect, how he has earned her love, and how it would make the fans feel if she still insisted on loving Sasuke even after all of it. Whether or not she feels that way is not a choice, it's just how she feels, and we can't fault her for it. But by that same token, it's not the fans' choice to feel angry for the possibility of Naruto being slighted and falling short after everything he has done for her and for the village.

That's the polar opposite of the image you were ascribing to Sakura. You stated you judged Sakura because you choose to see her as being like those girls that rejected you. That's not Sakura's character, not even in part 1- one only look at the above examples from manga canon- and look even at how she acted toward Rock Lee in part 1. His out of the blue over the top love at first sight confession creeped her out, but look how she is toward him from that point on- very kindhearted and caring.

Yes, let's look at how she acted toward Rock Lee. Because I seem to remember her being disgusted by his eyebrows and his hair, calling him "too unique." I remember her dodging his comical eye-heart-kisses as though they were poison darts. I remember her being driven near vomit when he promised to protect her with his life. I only remember her tossing him a grin once he actually made good on that promised and risked his life to save hers.

Look, I'm not saying she hasn't improved. I'm not saying that she hasn't grown up, and that she isn't worthy of Naruto's love. She has, and she is. She's learned that other people have feelings, too, and that they should be considered. Not everything I disliked about her behavior changed, but then again, not everything could. She just wouldn't be the same character if that was the case. All I'm saying is that these characters are not omniscient. They do not know what is going on inside her head. All they can do is guage her intentions by her actions. And whether or not a girl had internal conflict about liking me based on what I'd done for her, if I saw her falling head over heels for another guy, and then hitting me and yelling at me just for being who I am, I would not take kindly to it. Most guys wouldn't, especially not in our country. It hurts, I've experienced it. I do not accept the Tsundere excuse here, because I am not criticizing who she is now, nor am I criticizing who she was destined to become based on her archetype. I am criticizing how it feels to be treated that way, and the fact that Naruto did not deserve that treatment. I am criticizing how it would feel to Naruto if she still preferred Sasuke.

I still like Sakura for how she's developed. I still hope she ends up with Naruto. But after all of the investment in their hopes for her change of heart toward Naruto (romantically speaking), and after all of the thought she's put into what's gone on around her, all of the emotional growth, it is easy to see how some fans would lose respect for her if she relapsed like that. If you are a true fan, then you do not try to justify her every little action regardless of how it made the other characters or fans feel. You own up to her mistakes, her faults and her shortcomings, and you take the journey of improvement with her.

I still like Sakura, and I still support her even though I don't like how she treated Naruto in the beginning. I do not try to make excuses for it, because that's not what a fan should do. Her character is human, deliberately so. What matters is not who she was, but who she has become. And that's exactly why it would matter if she relapsed back into her infatuation with Sasuke.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Pachuco, can I give you a medal?

[ciardha]

Pachuco, it looks like you are desperately trying to make up any excuse for hating Sakura. It's really tiresome....

If you refuse get what tsundere is I suggest not reading any manga anymore. You clearly want to pretend a tsundere is "abusive", so why bother. I suggest the Twilight series instead, Bella is exactly the type girl you expect a girl to be....

And as for real life, even many teenage girls get when a guy is faking being a "nice guy". A girl gets mighty wary of a so called nice guy who rips down girls who turned him down to chase after the bad boys with a seductive charm. "Nice guys" want the girl to be "arm candy" that they can show off to other guys how "manly" they are for "having". The bad boys with the seductive charm make the girl feel special, even if it's just a game for the boy. It seems much more respectful to the girl, even though in the end it's just as disrespectful.

Edited by ciardha, 25 March 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Pachuco, seriously, it looks like you are desperately trying to make up excuses for hating Sakura. If you refuse get what tsundere is I suggest not reading any manga anymore. You clearly don't want to understand the stories and want to pretend a tsundere is "abusive", so why bother.

I suggest the Twilight series instead, Bella is exactly the type girl you expect a girl to be....

I'm going to go ahead and answer your quote with another quote:

I still like Sakura, and I still support her even though I don't like how she treated Naruto in the beginning. I do not try to make excuses for it, because that's not what a fan should do. Her character is human, deliberately so. What matters is not who she was, but who she has become. And that's exactly why it would matter if she relapsed back into her infatuation with Sasuke.

Edited by zacrathedemon5, 25 March 2012 - 06:00 AM.

[merryGOflava]

Pachuco, seriously, it looks like you are desperately trying to make up excuses for hating Sakura. If you refuse get what tsundere is I suggest not reading any manga anymore. You clearly don't want to understand the stories and want to pretend a tsundere is "abusive", so why bother.

I suggest the Twilight series instead, Bella is exactly the type girl you expect a girl to be....

i know you dont like anyone saying anything bad about sakura.

but they were just saying sakura was bratty when she first started out and changed for the better later.

you dont need to be defensive. just agree to disagree.

but theres always a right way of saying something, and telling someone they are wrong isnt the way.

in the end no matter how far we came, we all ended up liking sakura, just differently.

lets all get along? im sure you didnt mean it that way.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

The same old thing all over again. It's not official till the manga is over! and there's substantial evidence that Sakura treated Naruto like trash. Although, I don't really think her forehead has anything to do with Sakura being a brat. She thought Naruto was trying to ruining her life by getting in between her and Sasuke.

[catsi563]

Actualy I Agree with Ciardha on oen notion.

Sakura DID NOT treat Naruto like trash. All the people that think she treated him like trash forget one VERY IMPORTANT notion.

Sakura actively interacted with him.

The majority of people in Naruto blew him off or ignored him or flat out ostracized him.

Sakura sis the SOLE, one and Only person who doesnt ignore him. She does interact with him and actually calls him by name or refers to him as a person. She treats him better then the majority of people in the manga not named Iruka or Hiruzen.

[ciardha]

i know you dont like anyone saying anything bad about sakura.

but they were just saying sakura was bratty when she first started out and changed for the better later.

you dont need to be defensive. just agree to disagree.

but theres always a right way of saying something, and telling someone they are wrong isnt the way.

in the end no matter how far we came, we all ended up liking sakura, just differently.

lets all get along? im sure you didnt mean it that way.

No, they are deliberately distorting things. Sakura acts quite mild for a tsundere, and shows intense concern and caring about Naruto way earlier than most tsundere do in shonen. Her tsundereness in the manga is for completely reasonable things within the shonen manga world. Things even a Japanese male writer expects would hack off any female that wasn't a complete doormat- something Kishimoto makes clear he doesn't like a girl to be. Look again at what I pointed out was manga canon, not the distortion that comes from refusing to actually read the tsundere type as they are meant to be read, especially Kishimoto's take, which, especially with Sakura is from the start much more sweet and intensely caring than the type starts out as.

And interesting how it's only Sakura that gets attacked by these type readers, not even the other tsundere characters, most the female characters in Naruto are on the tsundere spectrum: Ino shows a definite tsundere side... Kushina is a tsundere, Terumi Mei, Tsunade, Karin, etc....and Karui actually goes into really being abusive- yet I see these same guys who rip down Sakura just fawning all over how hot and cool most those other female characters are... No, the "Sakura is selfish and abusive" is a completely fake argument. I can only conclude they just want an excuse to hate on Sakura's character. And it seems to stem for more than just Pachuco from seething resentment of a cute girl that rejected them back in high school. Sakura isn't the girl that rejected you, stop reading her that way, it's way annoying and completely misreads her character- even in chapter 3.

[PachucoDesigns]

Thanks guys, I appreciate it. I'm glad to see most people here understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying Sakura does not deserve respect, I'm not saying I hate her or that I don't think she deserves Naruto. All I'm saying is that the way most people try to defend her doesn't hold water. There are better ways to look at it, ways with more substance. And I would rather Sakura be respected for the fact that she grew and redeemed herself rather than being excused because she's a Tsundere. Who cares if she's a Tsundere? It's secondary to how it affects the story and the people around her, and it takes a distant back seat to her development.

I mean, really, which would you rather hear? "It's ok for me to hit you and yell at you, Naruto. After all, I'm a Tsundere. I'm supposed to." or "Naruto, I'm sorry that I treated you the way I used to. I treated you like a nuisance, but you always cared for me and loved me. I know you'll never let anyone hurt me, and so I will never hurt you. I love you, too." What matters more: the reasoning behind the writing process that fit her with her archetype, or the resulting substance and development of the story?

I am a writer, people. And I am here to tell you that you need to stop hiding behind this Tsundere argument. It's a poor argument. It doesn't matter what she is. It matters what she becomes and why, and what it means to the story and her love for Naruto.

No, they are deliberately distorting things. Sakura acts quite mild for a tsundere, and shows intense concern and caring about Naruto way earlier than most tsundere do in shonen. Her tsundereness in the manga is for completely reasonable things within the shonen manga world. Things even a Japanese male writer expects would hack off any female that wasn't a complete doormat- something Kishimoto makes clear he doesn't like a girl to be. Look again at what I pointed out was manga canon, not the distortion that comes from refusing to actually read the tsundere type as they are meant to be read, especially Kishimoto's take, which, especially with Sakura is from the start much more sweet and intensely caring than the type starts out as.

And interesting how it's only Sakura that gets attacked by these type readers, not even the other tsundere characters, most the female characters in Naruto are on the tsundere spectrum: Ino shows a definite tsundere side... Kushina is a tsundere, Terumi Mei, Tsunade, Karin, etc....and Karui actually goes into really being abusive- yet I see these same guys who rip down Sakura just fawning all over how hot and cool most those other female characters are... No, the "Sakura is selfish and abusive" is a completely fake argument. I can only conclude they just want an excuse to hate on Sakura's character. And it seems to stem for more than just Pachuco from seething resentment of a cute girl that rejected them back in high school. Sakura isn't the girl that rejected you, stop reading her that way, it's way annoying and completely misreads her character- even in chapter 3.

You really have no idea what a typical fangirl you're being, do you? You're not reading anything I'm saying. I like Sakura. I think she's right for Naruto. I want them to be together, and I think they will be happy. I'm not bashing her. All I'm doing is pointing out that she did have faults, and she overcame them. I'm saying that standing behind this Tsundere argument gets her fans nowhere, because the ones against the pairing are not buying it. Nor should they. You're not a fan if you defend her every little action, because you're not allowing for the fact that she is human. She mistreated Naruto, and she's aware of it. And she's sorry for it. And she's coming to love him. Why do you not argue it from that standpoint instead of using the term Tsundere like it's an all forgiving shield?

You're attacking me because you think I'm attacking Sakura because she's like a girl who hurt me. And you're wrong. I'm saying I understand how they feel, because I've been in Naruto's shoes in that regard, and I know how it feels. I'm saying that this is a fault she had, came to realize, overcame, and redeemed herself. I like Sakura precisely BECAUSE she feels remorse for hurting him, and because she came around and started to love him. I would love to have a Sakura in my life, and I hope that I do one day.

Before you start putting your fists up to defend her, realize that I am not attacking her. I am recognizing her as a human who makes mistakes, and a noble girl who overcomes them.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 25 March 2012 - 08:02 AM.

[Darth Krypt]

Before you start putting your fists up to defend her, realize that I am not attacking her. I am recognizing her as a human who makes mistakes, and a noble girl who overcomes them.

Its very hard for her to do this. If someone so much as criticizes Sakura, even if its in a good way, she'll see it as bashing so don't bother Pachuco. I agree with all your points. Sakura is definitely unlikable in the early parts of the stories. She is meant to be that way. Kishi said Sakura is the character that the reader can relate to the most. Meaning that she is very human and to be human you have a lot of flaws. We don't always understand other people's feelings because we always think about ourselves first, especially for young children. They are still in the midst of growing up so they won't know the meaning of empathy right from the start.

Kishi shows perfectly the story of this girl who starts out as selfish but as time goes on, she realizes that her initial impressions of people are shallow and superficial, learning that other people have feelings too, and not just herself. As she grows up, after the timeskip, she has become more mature and it reflects in how he treats Naruto. It is completely different from how she treated him initially. Sakura haters always fail to see this and the impression of that selfish brat always stays in their mind while they completely ignore her developments in character.

Oh and Pachuco, no double posting. Please edit your second post and copy on your first one.

Edited by Darth Krypt, 25 March 2012 - 07:51 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

Oh and Pachuco, no double posting. Please edit your second post and copy on your first one.

Sorry.

[Dragunov]

Please people, no bashing each other. Lets keep this clean.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

Actualy I Agree with Ciardha on oen notion.

Sakura DID NOT treat Naruto like trash. All the people that think she treated him like trash forget one VERY IMPORTANT notion.

Sakura actively interacted with him.

The majority of people in Naruto blew him off or ignored him or flat out ostracized him.

Sakura sis the SOLE, one and Only person who doesnt ignore him. She does interact with him and actually calls him by name or refers to him as a person. She treats him better then the majority of people in the manga not named Iruka or Hiruzen.

Lol, that's is why I write it in the past tense (treated) instead of (treats) present tense.

Edited by Konoha'sCrimsonFox, 25 March 2012 - 08:48 AM.

[Gravenimage]

I wonder what's worst being ignored, being called demon, being hated. Or having someone calling you by your name giving you attention even if it was to scold you. Someone like Naruto who was completely ignored by the villagers, hated by the villagers, no one bothered to get near him, and if they give him some attention it will be to call him demon. I think Naruto appreciated that Sakura took her time to talk to him, to call him by his name and not demon, she treated him like a regular person and that's what made him happy. Compare to the way the villagers treated him, aside from Iruka Sakura was a saint.

[PachucoDesigns]

I wonder what's worst being ignored, being called demon, being hated. Or having someone calling you by your name giving you attention even if it was to scold you. Someone like Naruto who was completely ignored by the villagers, hated by the villagers, no one bothered to get near him, and if they give him some attention it will be to call him demon. I think Naruto appreciated that Sakura took her time to talk to him, to call him by his name and not demon, she treated him like a regular person and that's what made him happy. Compare to the way the villagers treated him, aside from Iruka Sakura was a saint.

Yeah, but if you recall, none of the village children knew about the Kyuubi. Most of them treated him like a loser, or didn't talk to him because their parents urged them not to. Sakura would have been among them if he didn't keep "interfering with her love." With his crush on her, with him constantly talking to her and trying for her attention, she had to respond in some way. She interacted with him, yeah, but she didn't have much of a choice.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 25 March 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[tricksie]

I don't particularly care for any of the characterizations in part one. Team 7 is detestable, and only the developing plot makes you like them more. But even Kakashi and Sarutobi are unkind and disregarding to Naruto. The scene where they are walking around in his apartment, before Kakashi takes him on as a student? They couldn't care less about the kid.

The bigger problem for me in part one are the monumental plot holes. Who was their beloved Yondaime's son emotionally abandoned by those closest to him, and why was the village's future powerhouse neglected, only receiving extra care after he'd been in the academy for a while and after he was manipulated for ill-uses by a rogue nin?

In light of that behavior by the ones who were supposed to care for him, Sakura's behavior towards Naruto — though bratty — is age appropriate. She is self-centered, but she doesn't hate Naruto the way the others do. In fact, someone mentioned a while ago that socially Sakura was at the same level as Naruto. She's from a low-level clan (if they are even a clan), with no remarkable skills and not enough self-esteem to stand up to her bullies.

It's easier for me to excuse her behavior than it is to accept Kakashi's, Sarutobi's, Genma's, etc., neglect of Naruto. If any of them had shown any public acceptance of the boy, his life would have been so much easier, and arguably he could been more quickly accepted by the classmates and peers who did not know his background.

Hmmm.... As for respecting/disrespecting Sakura, I'll just say again that it's a double standard to say Naruto's long-standing devotion to Sakura is something to be admired (and thus rewarded with the relationship), while the possibility of Sakura's long-standing devotion to Sasuke shows something defective in her character. (Or for NH shippers, that Hinata's long-standing devotion will successfully change Naruto's heart.)

Again, these themes were born of Part 1, and I wonder if Kishimoto would tweak some parts of his story in hindsight. Make the love theme a little more multi-faceted. He's writing it that way now, and he generally is treating his characters with a little more empathy. Not the rough edges of part one. And on that note, just like we've seen some Sasuke/Naruto flashbacks from their academy days, I fully expect some Sakura/Naruto flashbacks as well to smooth over the character wrinkles that have been dicussed here.

[Madz]

^^
amen to what Tricksie said.
Furthermore, I was even more appalled to learn that Jiraiya was Naruto's Godfather. GODFATHER.
I always wondered where the hell this Godfather was when Naruto was being hated by the villagers. (I won't say mistreated, because personally I never believed that Naruto was physically mistreated).
I mean, surely if Jiraiya was around when Naruto was growing up, no-one would have dared pointed any finger at Naruto...

As for Pachuchodesigns...
Personally, I LOVE the tsundere character fo Sakura, and certainly do not wish her to change thsi aspect of her personality!! I still see her "punching Naruto to the next day" even after they are married, lol. And please, don't take the punches as real...they're NOT supposed to be taken litterally. That's the major difference that many people do not understand.