205 replies to this topic

[catsi563]

Exactly, and Kishimoto will not be happy for the same reason. I don't know why, but several anime companies have a have bad history of giving the middle finger to the manga creators on some aspect of the story- they buy the rights and do things deliberately that contradict canon. Naoko Takeuchi (Sailor Moon) really got her characters and storyline elements royally messed over, she's one of the few manga creators that made no bones about how much it bugged her. Which is why when the prospect of a live action adaption was sent to her, she used the power manga creators rarely use (it gives them a bad "rep" as being "difficult" and they aren't likely to get anything else filmed) and insisted on being closely involved with the project- thus insuring a strong storyline with lots of character development, and the characters personalities actually being as Takeuchi wrote them. (No surprise, even though ratings were decent, only 13 episodes, plus 1 special were filmed...)

Anime companies have a enormous amount of power compared to the manga creators (it's similar in the US when a novelist gets their book made into a movie) manga creators are afraid to make objections when a series is being animated for fear they will cancel it, do even more off canon stuff, and not get any more of their stories animated.)

Knowing that history has made a few people that have been reading manga nearly as long as I, actually refuse to watch anime adaptions.

I'm irritated with this episode because it was Studio Pierrot giving Kishimoto the middle finger. It's as bad to the opposite extreme as when Rei/Sailor Mars was fighting childishly with Usagi/Sailor Moon over Mamoru/Tuxedo Mask. In the manga Rei was cool and refined, they also trashed Makoto/Sailor Jupiter by making her a boy crazy girl, when in the manga she was a tomboyish girl who was the best fighter of the inner senshi, because she had a history of fighting bullies- including boys. Usagi wasn't a whiny brat in the manga either- yes, she was airheaded, but she had a bubbly personality that made people like her despite how dense she was.

Exactly and that pretty well my major gripe. Look at what happened to Fullmetal Alchemist. they pretty well had to redo then entire series because the anime team took liberties with the manga story.

Now Ill grant this much. Ive been reading Kekkaishis manga and just finished the first 121 chapters which conclude the animes 52 episodes. The anime team on kekkaishi actually imporved the manga with their verion IMHO by expanding the characters development and changing a couple sequences around to better flow in the story.

Part of my worry with this series was begun when they removed the part of the Hachibi fight where Saske thanks Karin for saving him. Its a key moment when Sasuke acknowledges her as both a comerade and thanks her which is something he never did in the manga at all save when he thanked Sakura which was an ambiguous moment at best.

So far peirrot has been good at keeping the filler in line with the mangas canon material, and at least making sure the filler flows with the manga unlike bleach where filler arcs come out of nowhere and have little to no connection to the main story. At least the Naruto filler can be easilly seen to fit. for example the investigate the sound arc to me is one of the few fillers that I personally consider canon capable.

I can see the need to use filler material but it should be used judiciously to enhance the story and maintain the flow of it like in kekkaishi. Not splashed around carelessly like a kid with a paint filled water pistol.

[Insurrection]

Actually that's not exactly true. A lot people don't read the manga. Some people they're only interaction with Naruto is through the anime. (Cringe) Even the english dub.

For instance, I consider myself a fan of DB but I've never once read the manga.

I just remember reading that Naruto was the best selling shonen manga in Japan.

[Derock]

I just remember reading that Naruto was the best selling shonen manga in Japan.

No, that's One Piece. Naruto is the 3rd best shonen manga. (All-time best selling shonen manga is Dragon Ball.)

[Insurrection]

Oh, thanks for the clarification. Still in the top 3 though.

[No WhereMan]

What I am hoping and someone else mentioned this too. The reason why this episode was given so much added crap is because this is the closure for Hinata as a character so the studio (since they're fans of hers) decided to make her send off memorable right before Hinata fades away into obscurity. I mean we might get some more filler arcs that include her character but this is the end of the road for her development. Regardless of how many fillers they might throw in there including Hinata, the main storyline doesn't include her majorly. So it would be pointless for the studio to try to derail it that far away from the main storyline only to have Hinata play background again for when the major manga arcs come along.

All I can say to everyone is just wait and see really.

[Insurrection]

What I am hoping and someone else mentioned this too. The reason why this episode was given so much added crap is because this is the closure for Hinata as a character so the studio (since they're fans of hers) decided to make her send off memorable right before Hinata fades away into obscurity. I mean we might get some more filler arcs that include her character but this is the end of the road for her development. Regardless of how many fillers they might throw in there including Hinata, the main storyline doesn't include her majorly. So it would be pointless for the studio to try to derail it that far away from the main storyline only to have Hinata play background again for when the major manga arcs come along.

All I can say to everyone is just wait and see really.

I'll go with that actually.

[ciardha]

I'm aware that we don't need the filler for support; I'm just irritated that they gave this moment a bunch of bulls*** that didn't happen in the manga. It's going to mislead a lot of people who only watch the anime and don't read the manga.

Yeah, this happened with Sailor Moon- especially amongst US fans- the way the anime messed up the characterizations (and the dub took that even further by renaming the characters, etc...) is what the majority of fans thought the characters were like, until the manga was translated. Thankfully, by the time the American dub of the third anime season came out the majority of the fans had read the manga, and laughed uproariously at the painfully bad attempt at censoring that Haruka and Michiru were actually a lesbian couple- In the bad dub their names were altered and the censor happy animators said they were cousins. It was hysterical because Haruka and Michiru have pretty obvious shoujo-ai scenes together, and Haruka flirts with Usagi, even kisses her on the mouth at one point, and that after Usagi knows Haruka is a girl. Usagi likes the kiss too. (yes, in the manga Takeuchi did show Usagi was slightly bisexual, she kind of falls in love with Seiya- who is actually a girl disguising herself as a boy, Usagi falls for Seiya after she knows Seiya is a girl, Seiya kind of falls for her too, but in the end Usagi loves Mamoru more, and Seiya loves Kakyuu more. (Kakyuu is a girl, so yes Seiya is a lesbian, something the anime company hid- they were okay with Haruka and Michiru, but just couldn't deal with the Starlights being women disguising themselves as men so they left the impression the Starlights were guys- one of the many points that irritated Naoko Takeuchi about the mangled adaption of her manga into the anime. But they didn't tamper with the overall storyline, although they softened the scenes a bit where Galaxia turns the other senshi into dust in front of Usagi's eyes.

[No WhereMan]

Yeah, this happened with Sailor Moon- especially amongst US fans- the way the anime messed up the characterizations (and the dub took that even further by renaming the characters, etc...) is what the majority of fans thought the characters were like, until the manga was translated. Thankfully, by the time the American dub of the third anime season came out the majority of the fans had read the manga, and laughed uproariously at the painfully bad attempt at censoring that Haruka and Michiru were actually a lesbian couple- In the bad dub their names were altered and the censor happy animators said they were cousins. It was hysterical because Haruka and Michiru have pretty obvious shoujo-ai scenes together, and Haruka flirts with Usagi, even kisses her on the mouth at one point, and that after Usagi knows Haruka is a girl. Usagi likes the kiss too. (yes, in the manga Takeuchi did show Usagi was slightly bisexual, she kind of falls in love with Seiya- who is actually a girl disguising herself as a boy, Usagi falls for Seiya after she knows Seiya is a girl, Seiya kind of falls for her too, but in the end Usagi loves Mamoru more, and Seiya loves Kakyuu more. (Kakyuu is a girl, so yes Seiya is a lesbian, something the anime company hid- they were okay with Haruka and Michiru, but just couldn't deal with the Starlights being women disguising themselves as men so they left the impression the Starlights were guys- one of the many points that irritated Naoko Takeuchi about the mangled adaption of her manga into the anime. But they didn't tamper with the overall storyline, although they softened the scenes a bit where Galaxia turns the other senshi into dust in front of Usagi's eyes.

Wow, a bit too much Sailor Moon knowledge in a Naruto manga thread. ^^

[Insurrection]

And that's the second thing I'll agree with you with No WhereMan.

Edited by Insurrection, 26 June 2010 - 06:35 AM.

[catsi563]

its relevant to the discussion based on the way the anime and manga were done differently which is the primary complaint here.

[Jenskott]

Yeah, this happened with Sailor Moon- especially amongst US fans- the way the anime messed up the characterizations (and the dub took that even further by renaming the characters, etc...) is what the majority of fans thought the characters were like, until the manga was translated.

Ugh. You are describing me. I watched Sailor Moon anime way before I read the manga and I was shocked when I read it. The plot was better, the characters were more mature, and several things had annoyed me in the anime, simply didn't exist in the manga. The ONLY thing the anime surpass the manga is the art, and the art isn't so great to start with, IMO. I preffer anime character designers such like Akemi Takada (Kimagure Orange Road, Maison Ikkoku, Urusei Yatsura, Patlabor, Creamy Mami...), Yoshikazu Yasuhiko (Mobile Suit Gundam) or Haruhiko Mikimoto (Macross/Robotech) rather the Sailor Moon anime character designers. But that is another matter (such like my blatant favoritism regarding 80's anime).

I don't remember many instances where the anime messed up the manga so badly like Sailor Moon. Wait, Dragon Ball is a good example. The fillers were mostly atrocious, the anime crew lengthened the fights TOO much and Dragon Ball GT is even worse the last DBZ saga (and if my information is accurate, Toriyama never wanted doing the Buu saga. He had wanted finishing the manga long before).

Fillers and a Gecko Ending also wrecked Rurouni Kenshin anime. I yet can't believe how badly they messed up the Kenshin/Enishi fight and the manga finale. Ugh.

Hmm... Kimagure Orange Road's movie also messed up the manga ending. Manga Hikaru proved she was more mature, more forgiving, more resilient and emotionally stronger than her boyfriend and her best friend thought. Anime Hikaru looked like a clinging stalker.

Ranma 1/2 anime also was pretty wrecked. Too much filler, too MANY filler characters, too personalities messed with, and the anime team changed the order of too many key events. And they never showed the ending (agreed, Ranma ending is a no ending. Nevertheless, they didn't show it).

And NOT EVEN get me started with Saint Seiya's anime.

Sigh. Maybe that is one of the reasons for I don't use watch anime anymore and I stick to the manga. The anime-makers use to change things and usually it isn't for the best (I only remember one instance where they improved the original manga: Mazinger Z).

Oh, well. Returning to the topic, I don't think Pierrot staff is filled with NH fans (maybe Hinata fans, at any rate). But I think they love overdramatize some scenes and create love triangles out from nowhere (right like Sailor Moon anime-makers created an Usagi/Mamoru/Rei love triangle out from nowhere).

Whatever the case is, I doubt they will make a NH ending if Naruto and Sakura get together in the manga.

[KungFuTruffle]

Like the rest of you, I don't care for this episode.

Unlike the rest of you, I don't see this as a tribute to Hinata. In fact, to me, it comes off as some of the worst character bashing I've ever watched.

For 11 minutes, we see into Hinata's thoughts, and how her life sucked before Naruto came into it.

And then for the next 11 minutes, we get to watch Pain, a Kage level mass murderer beat Hinata so badly that at one point, she appears to have a broken nose, and her teeth are bleeding.

And then Pain stabs her in front of Naruto, while he openly mocks the action.

This isn't a character tribute, it's a snuff film.

[Verilance]

No, that's One Piece. Naruto is the 3rd best shonen manga. (All-time best selling shonen manga is Dragon Ball.)

just as an aside One Piece has long past Dragonball to be the best selling manga of all time

[Gaara]

If Sakura's hug and confession doesn't get any filler, then Kishi and Shueisha need to file a lawsuit against Studio Pierrots anime director in charge of Naruto for bending Kishi's manga so bad.

It probably wont happen. You have to just admit that this NaruHina scene was more dramatic than any NaruSaku scene in part 2.
Of course Hinata isnt important and I actually didnt like that scene even in the manga. It makes no scene to push Hinata in the middle like that when she actually never appeared before.

But this was a very dramatic touching scene while the hug that Sakura gives Naruto is, well, just a hug and a thank you. It's not a "I love you". So there wont be much filler there.
Of course there will be a scene where she tells him "I love you" as well, but we all know how akward that was. I'm afraid it will be in the Anime as well, and thats probably what Kishi wanted.

That sucks, but I think a true really good believable NaruSaku "I love you" scene didnt happen in the Manga YET. We can all hope it will happen soon and than we will have many filler scenes in the Anime as well to back that scene up.

Believe it, dattebayo.

[Broken Figurine]

Oh goodness, I had to watch this on my birthday, did I not?

To think an episode ago I was making a comment on how I was tired of the animators giving Hinata a lot of extra time... Oh boy was I surprised with this one! Hinata as a character does not do much, and yet both her fanbase and the people at Studio Perriot seem to lathe her in such a good perspective that really, it's like if you don't love her you must be something terrible. Did you not see the way she pushed herself so much, and how much stronger she is than a lot of people! She managed to land a hit that had Nagato coughing out blood! She is a selfless person that only pushes herself for Naruto's love...

The bias toward her character is too strong. Normally, I bite my lip and go whatever, but this was way too far. Of all the anime adaptions that happened, this had to have annoyed me the most. Her character is saint-like, pure, and just bubbling with importance which isn't really there. Hinata does not have much going for her character. She is a simple person who is motivated and plot-related by very marginal aspects. There is nothing wrong with liking her as a character, but for such a minimal role she is given maximal attention. Her confession in the manga was done well, and I thought that was closure enough. She was a plot-bunny to get Naruto Kyuubi, yes, but it was done in a way that made sense, gave her some spotlight, and as usual she came and faded. Good job Hinata, you shined brightly and now may you gracefully step off the stage...

OW THE NEON LIGHT, IT BURNS MY RETINA, AAAAAAAAAH
That was the anime version of it. I expected some filler, maybe a little bit of flashback to earlier episodes... This was not done well. I don't think I'm speaking from a NaruSaku perspective, I think I'm speaking from a perspective where I don't appreciate something being shoved in my face like that when I know that was not how it went.

What's worse is that I know this bias will persist. When it comes to Sakura's confession, she will appear to be much worse than in the manga, and Naruto will look much angrier. It may even come to look like he hates her. Somehow, it will be twisted into a largely negative scene, with Sakura flat out making a fool of herself. I am not confident they will give her the same treatment as they did Hinata here. Even Sai telling Sakura about Naruto's feelings may not garner the same "dramatic" effect.

[Insurrection]

It probably wont happen. You have to just admit that this NaruHina scene was more dramatic than any NaruSaku scene in part 2.
Of course Hinata isnt important and I actually didnt like that scene even in the manga. It makes no scene to push Hinata in the middle like that when she actually never appeared before.

But this was a very dramatic touching scene while the hug that Sakura gives Naruto is, well, just a hug and a thank you. It's not a "I love you". So there wont be much filler there.
Of course there will be a scene where she tells him "I love you" as well, but we all know how akward that was. I'm afraid it will be in the Anime as well, and thats probably what Kishi wanted.

That sucks, but I think a true really good believable NaruSaku "I love you" scene didnt happen in the Manga YET. We can all hope it will happen soon and than we will have many filler scenes in the Anime as well to back that scene up.

Believe it, dattebayo.

Okay, Gaara I have to give you props for probably being the one person here who holds a positive opinion of the episode.

That being said, overdramatic is a better word to describe it if you purposely infuse too much drama into a situation it becomes a soap opera. I'll admit this has caused the most amount of drama. I still think the first time we see four tails had brought the right amount.

Hinata is being treated as the fourth side of a triangle. With the amount of conflict going to appear with Naruto and Sakura I want more between them because the main characters deserve better treatment, but with what they did with this I'm worried they'll add a filler canon worst case. If the anime is allowed to do what they wish without consent from Kishimoto there's going to be something that goes too far.

Okay I have a question, when and how long does it take to make the anime episodes?

Edited by Insurrection, 27 June 2010 - 05:30 AM.

[Enermil]

Not only the anime deviates from the manga when a studio makes an animated adaptation like Ciardha said, Sailor Moon was a fine example of that, I remember reading the manga after watching the anime and I was like "WTF? This isn´t like the animated series at all, how they messed up the original work". But aniway, it happens also with manga adaptations of animated series. Evangelion is a fine example of that. The manga done by Yoshiyuki Sadamoto deviates from the animated series. Shinji isn´t as wimpy and spineless as the anime, Rei has a larger role and is more human, Asuka gets only a minor role in the manga (the changes made in Rei and Asuka are because the author strongly dislikes Asuka and likes Rei) and etc... So the changes doesn´t only appear in anime series but in mangas as well because the studios and mangakas have an enormous power and can do as much as they pleasse without respecting the original work. Kinda like what happens with movie adaptations from books.

[Gravenimage]

Oh goodness, I had to watch this on my birthday, did I not?

To think an episode ago I was making a comment on how I was tired of the animators giving Hinata a lot of extra time... Oh boy was I surprised with this one! Hinata as a character does not do much, and yet both her fanbase and the people at Studio Perriot seem to lathe her in such a good perspective that really, it's like if you don't love her you must be something terrible. Did you not see the way she pushed herself so much, and how much stronger she is than a lot of people! She managed to land a hit that had Nagato coughing out blood! She is a selfless person that only pushes herself for Naruto's love...

The bias toward her character is too strong. Normally, I bite my lip and go whatever, but this was way too far. Of all the anime adaptions that happened, this had to have annoyed me the most. Her character is saint-like, pure, and just bubbling with importance which isn't really there. Hinata does not have much going for her character. She is a simple person who is motivated and plot-related by very marginal aspects. There is nothing wrong with liking her as a character, but for such a minimal role she is given maximal attention. Her confession in the manga was done well, and I thought that was closure enough. She was a plot-bunny to get Naruto Kyuubi, yes, but it was done in a way that made sense, gave her some spotlight, and as usual she came and faded. Good job Hinata, you shined brightly and now may you gracefully step off the stage...

OW THE NEON LIGHT, IT BURNS MY RETINA, AAAAAAAAAH
That was the anime version of it. I expected some filler, maybe a little bit of flashback to earlier episodes... This was not done well. I don't think I'm speaking from a NaruSaku perspective, I think I'm speaking from a perspective where I don't appreciate something being shoved in my face like that when I know that was not how it went.

What's worse is that I know this bias will persist. When it comes to Sakura's confession, she will appear to be much worse than in the manga, and Naruto will look much angrier. It may even come to look like he hates her. Somehow, it will be twisted into a largely negative scene, with Sakura flat out making a fool of herself. I am not confident they will give her the same treatment as they did Hinata here. Even Sai telling Sakura about Naruto's feelings may not garner the same "dramatic" effect.

I don't think it will be like that when it comes to Sakura's confession. In Japan they love Sakura and there are some who don't like her but it's NOTHING compare to the hatred the people from the West have for her, however I am expecting a lot of one sided SasuSaku moments from way back part 1 from Naruto's part. The animators will put so many biased S/S moments in order to convince the fandom that S/S will happen, but I am expecting that the animation will be even better than Hinata's confession.

Edited by Gravenimage, 27 June 2010 - 12:56 PM.

[ciardha]

Oh goodness, I had to watch this on my birthday, did I not?

To think an episode ago I was making a comment on how I was tired of the animators giving Hinata a lot of extra time... Oh boy was I surprised with this one! Hinata as a character does not do much, and yet both her fanbase and the people at Studio Perriot seem to lathe her in such a good perspective that really, it's like if you don't love her you must be something terrible. Did you not see the way she pushed herself so much, and how much stronger she is than a lot of people! She managed to land a hit that had Nagato coughing out blood! She is a selfless person that only pushes herself for Naruto's love...

I think I'm speaking from a perspective where I don't appreciate something being shoved in my face like that when I know that was not how it went.

Like I said, they "Mary-Sued" Hinata. This offended me on several levels (and not my narusaku shipping level) I have an anathema for animators deviating too much from canon manga story. I don't even care for fanfic that deviates too much from canon- at least canon at the time the fanfic writer starts the story.

I hate when writers turn a character into a Mary-Sue (it's poor writing- period)- the girl from the second Shippuden movie was a Mary-Sue, and they had Naruto acting more like he was in love with her than with Sakura. In this episode they do other Mary-Sue sins with Hinata- stealing a prime element from Sakura's childhood and tacking it onto Hinata's (and making Naruto be her rescuer to boot)-already this is too irritating just typing it out, can't stand to type out the rest of the Mary-Suing in this episode- just look at what broken figurine said... giant

And lastly, I'm disgusted at them giving the middle finger to Kishimoto. They did exactly what said he didn't like in the fan letters misreading of the manga. With the last it does make me look askance at their over playing Sakura's tsundere tendencies- maybe it's not just for the comedic element but to make their (outright admitted last episode's omake) fanboy favorite Hinata look better- which would be more Mary-Suing of Hinata.

I think Kishimoto was already somewhat aware of this problem with the animators- which is why he made the public comment at the Jump Festa (rather than in the second fanbook interview) about "fan letters" bashing Sakura and showing an over praising obsession with Hinata. I think that was Kishimoto's subtle way of telling the animators to cut this behavior out. Of course Studio Pierrot promptly decides to give Kishimoto the middle finger- first by making a mock of his words with having Sakura saying almost the same words, but done in a way that it makes her look like a childish girl throwing a tantrum (which is grossly out of character for part 2 Sakura, by the way, and even somewhat out of character for part 1 Sakura), while Hinata is meek Miss Innocent who just "can't help" the animators love her so much. It's not even the slight naruhina filler inserts they've done all along that gets my irritation level up, it's their long history of taking what is supposed to a minor support character and making her look more heroic than even Naruto- the title character. How many times in part 1 fillers did they make Naruto look dumber than he was in the manga, make him the butt of jokes, etc... while Hinata was heroic- pulling out all kinds of made up jutsus her character never had and never will have....

Kishimoto is likely pretty peeved about this (both the mocking of his words in last episodes omake, and this episode trashing of canon) He's likely even more determined now Sakura will be even more heroic and even more determined to bring Naruto and Sakura's romantic bond into a central focus. He might also be peeved enough to do something that outright shows Hinata's negative points- something he's kept subtle until now. I won't go into them here because it might be taken as character bashing, but if you've got a good eye for subtle character points in manga you'll have noticed in part 2 of the manga Kishimoto hasn't always made Hinata's actions, or lack of actions look positive- in fact, there's some of that in chapter 437 itself. I'll leave it at that.

Edited by ciardha, 27 June 2010 - 04:44 PM.

[ShippudenGirl]

Didn't watch it yet, but the way you guys descibed it, it makes it sound like the animators are trying to have Hinata have everyones sympathy... Ew =D