169 replies to this topic

[Phantom_999]

James, I agree with almost everything you said. I disagree on wanting Obito to be "saved", however. Tobi's proven to be such a magnificent villain over the last few hundred chapters that for him to be "saved" would be...disappointing. We need a villain that doesn't give into talk no jutsu that actually makes it until near the end. Kabuto was one of them, but Kishi ass-pulled his way out of dealing with him. Orochimaru was/is one, but honestly he's way too over-the-top about it. I've never liked Oro as a villain because he was too generically "evil".

Madara and Obito, as of right now, are the big baddies. Madara we've only known for a short amount of time, so introducing him as the only villain that isn't affected by talk no jutsu that isn't wasted (*cough* Kabuto deserved way better *cough*) would seem kinda...weak. It wouldn't have as big of an impact as Tobi, I mean, because we've known Tobi since near the beginning of Shippuden and Madara himself for the last, what, 100 chapters?

At this point, I don't care about what Madara does. Tobi and Kabuto were the villains I was looking forward to being the last biggies, and now that Kabuto's been totally wasted, I feel that Tobi needs to stay his path. Please, Kishimoto. Don't waste another good villain.

Please.

Edit: Yes, I'm still butthurt about how he treated Kabuto. Bite me, Kishi.

That isn't what I'm asking for, here. Look at Kabuto. He's the kind of villain I'm talking about. He had much more than insanity to him, and a good motivation.

Look at these two options:
- A villain that can be talk-no-jutsued
- A villain that is nothing but insane

These are not the only two options. This series needs at least one villain that doesn't fit into either category that makes it until near the end of the series as one of the final conflicts.

So would I be right to say that You want a villain that stays convicted to beliefs and actions UNTIL THE END? One that does'st find a crack in there logic or reasoning and have it crumbled into the dust? One that will take what they were and are to the grave? Well not that I don't agree, but if it's because you say that it's not logical, don't you think for them to change instantly is JUST as logical, cause honestly The TALK not jutsu really does S**T to them. If they change, it's because they choose or want to, not because Naruto forced them too. Change is by choice. I mean think about it, Shonen series thrives on the ideal of good overcoming evil, which is a little corny and linear, I know not to mention basic and a little dull but hey Dragon Ball was the same thing. Most of the villains became "good" so to speak at some point or another. But anyways I don't see it as a waste of character if they change, because waste of character is really if they die without ever being developed or addressed. If they were introduced then cast off to the side THAT is a waste of character so I'm don't disagree with you only saying that changing them does not waste their character or make them less interesting really, It is only that you prefer them to be evil and stay as A**H***s until the end when they RIP.

Edited by Phantom_999, 22 October 2012 - 01:22 AM.

[Nee-sama]

Good post, James. And I'd like to add that it wasn't so long ago that Naruto was failing and everyone was moaning and complaining about it. He failed to give out information on Sasuke as a missing nin to the cloud trio, and people called him a wussy for letting the chick beat him up. He failed to talk Raikage into letting Sasuke live, and people cried about Naruto crying in the snow. I said at that time that Naruto was going through a phase, like cleaning a room from the closet out things are going to get worse before they get better, and that he would bounce back and become the hero that is is now. But back then it was like "omg, I'm going to quit reading this manga because Naruto is undeveloping!"

[Rozette]

That was an excellent and thorough post, James.

Sorry to suddenly shift the topic, however while reading through the thread and contemplating, something kind of hit my mind that I'm quite curious about.

With the likely possibility of Obito "spying" on Kakashi making his visit(s) to the Memorial Stone, I think it may be possible that while Kakashi was speaking to Obito from the Memorial, he may have said and explained Rin's death at his own hands and the reasons for it. I thought of this with what Obito said about heroes making excuses at graves. While there could be quite a few definitions as to what these excuses were, I feel that the strongest excuse that Kakashi could have made at the Memorial was his reasoning for taking Rin's life.

I find Obito's choice of words quite peculiar. When he says "..you let Rin die, ..heroes making excuses at graves.." it seems to indicate that he is already aware of why Rin died.

[Codus N]

That is possible, but I'd expect it to be more like he can see what Kakashi sees but not hear what he says.

James, I think if there's going to be redemption for Obito, it will be Kakashi that will make him change his mind. Obito will argue that even though he can go back to the village with his friends again, it would be too late for him. And comes the big wham line: Kakashi will ask for his own execution in exchange for Obito's life.

Man... I can really see the drama unfolding....

[James S Cassidy]

That was an excellent and thorough post, James.

Thank you.

Sorry to suddenly shift the topic, however while reading through the thread and contemplating, something kind of hit my mind that I'm quite curious about.

With the likely possibility of Obito "spying" on Kakashi making his visit(s) to the Memorial Stone, I think it may be possible that while Kakashi was speaking to Obito from the Memorial, he may have said and explained Rin's death at his own hands and the reasons for it. I thought of this with what Obito said about heroes making excuses at graves. While there could be quite a few definitions as to what these excuses were, I feel that the strongest excuse that Kakashi could have made at the Memorial was his reasoning for taking Rin's life.

I find Obito's choice of words quite peculiar. When he says "..you let Rin die, ..heroes making excuses at graves.." it seems to indicate that he is already aware of why Rin died.

Hmm. I never thought about that. Good observation. I don't know what Kakashi would say at the grave site though.

James, I think if there's going to be redemption for Obito, it will be Kakashi that will make him change his mind. Obito will argue that even though he can go back to the village with his friends again, it would be too late for him. And comes the big wham line: Kakashi will ask for his own execution in exchange for Obito's life.

Man... I can really see the drama unfolding....

But isn't that exciting to see? Moments like that keep me reading. "What's going to happen next?" Obito is probably the best candidate for a redemption. A dark character who used to be good going through a world of violence and pain finds new light into the world. If he still dies in the end even after Obito changes back to good or gets redeemed, then this teaches Naruto that success comes in many forms and even though it may seem like failure it really isn't. Yeah it didn't turn out exactly the way you wanted, but it doesn't mean you failed.

And since we are awesome at parallels as I hear from many other shipping fans and such, look how much a parallel this would reflect on the Sasuke and Naruto fight.

[Codus N]

But isn't that exciting to see? Moments like that keep me reading. "What's going to happen next?" Obito is probably the best candidate for a redemption. A dark character who used to be good going through a world of violence and pain finds new light into the world. If he still dies in the end even after Obito changes back to good or gets redeemed, then this teaches Naruto that success comes in many forms and even though it may seem like failure it really isn't. Yeah it didn't turn out exactly the way you wanted, but it doesn't mean you failed.

And since we are awesome at parallels as I hear from many other shipping fans and such, look how much a parallel this would reflect on the Sasuke and Naruto fight.

Now that you mention how this would parallel the upcoming Naruto vs Sasuke fight, I can really see this happening with them. As much as I despise it, it would work (Naruto attempting to sacrifice his life in exchange for Sasuke's), given the parallel with Kakashi & Obito. The big game changer though, would be the presence of Sakura. Much like Rin (albeit posthumously) she will play an extremely important role for them.

Think about it, if Rin was resurrected in some form here, she would be playing perhaps the biggest role in the manga ever as she would be the only person capable of resolving her boys' conflict.

Sakura too, would play the same role here. She would be the one to try to talk Naruto out of it, much like what Rin would do to Kakashi. She would be the one to somehow snap Sasuke to his senses, she would be the one doing the talking, Naruto would be the one doing the fist-talking, whereas Rin would be trying to do the same to Obito and Kakashi being the one to do the fist-talking.

It may sound like a SS scenario, but I think it will have more of a friendship tone (of course, those SS fans would see otherwise).

So yeah, I'm convinced will perhaps play the biggest role in the final battle.

[Phantom_999]

I'm sorry for getting angry. I had a very bad day yesterday and yes, you are right. I was wrong in a few things I have said, however some of you are being very hypocritical about what you want from this manga and here is a novel to explain what everyone's views on the manga on general belief based on several things that have been said from some members.

Every time we discuss villains, the common idea is that we can not have villains that just do things just to do things. That would be "shallow" as some of you would say. Ciadhra says that the "more realistic villains have hardships in their past that either made them insane or made them believe the world is terrible." Nefertieh says "This isn't some American comic book. We need to explain it. There has to be a reason." (paraphrase of course.)

Fair enough, that's what we got. So by that standard that you all set up, Obito is being shown why he became a villain. That's why we are reading all of this now. If there was no explanation and all we got is "Obito is a villain" How many would cry foul saying right now "This is bullcrap?" From what we saw when Obito was revealed, a good half of you complained about having no explanation even before Kishi has a chance to explain. Call me a liar and look back at the threads.

Let me ask you this, what is more interesting? Seeing the hero's past life and how they succeed or watching how the villains fall into darkness? 9/10 of you are going to saying "I much prefer to see the history of the villain." This is because the hero's story happens as we read it and because most hero stories are origin stories. Hardly a time happens when we just come to a hero already being a hero with a vague history.

Now, Obito has gotten NO development until just recently (Not even ten chapters, yet), but some of you think like all we have been doing is talking about Obito for the entire manga. At least this is the tone you all are giving off. Yet over the years all I have ever see is "Kakashi needs more development. Obito needs more development. Such and such character needs more development." Guess what happens when you want a character to gain more development? The main hero has to be put aside just so you can explain it. So what do you want?

Keep in mind of another manga Dragonball where Goku didn't have that much development on a moral or philosophical level either. (Come on. "I conked my head and became a good guy") Yeah he faced problems and villains, but he was never challenged on a moral or philosophical level. Are any of you going to complain about this? Naruto has on several occasions. The worst thing was Goku went through is he got angry a few times but it wasn't a problem. (And well, the thing with the moon.) It wasn't like Naruto who got angry and lost control nearly destroying everyone. Vegeta went through more on comparison to Goku.

Want to see a real ironic thing, Tricksie? The fact that you all want these villains to have detailed pasts and explanations, but then start complaining that the villains take up too much of the story and Naruto is left out not really thinking that Naruto's story is happening in real time or the fact that Naruto's development happened much quicker. (Seems everyone forgot the waterfall chapters, everyone forgot the drama of Sakura confession's, everyone forgot all that has happened in Part 1, everyone forgot everything that has happened to Naruto for the first half of shippuden.)

Also, you all keep forgetting that Naruto's trails always end on a positive note. because as some of you all keep pointng out "The present generation HAS to surpass the previous ones." I guess if Naruto failed, then he wouldn't have surpassed now would he? Again, this is basing off the logic that many of the members presented to me. Naruto has went through the same trails, but succeeded where the past have failed. Let me show you and I'll do this villain by villain. Let's start with the first major villain.

Gaara - shunned as a child, treated as a monster. Village thought he should die. Father did cruel things to him
Naruto - shunned as a child, treated as a monster. Difference: Positive influences. Hokage forbid the parents from telling their kids, and not everyone saw Naruto as a monster. Plus didn't have a heartless father.

Nagato - Best friend was killed by his own hand, but was forced by Yahiko. Double whammy here cause Yahiko was the positive influence.
Naruto - Several friends were thought killed. Some actually did. Difference: Friends were brought back to life or didn't really die.
(And Nate, I know how much you despise this logic with Nagato, but just because you do does not mean you can take it out of the equation every time it is brought up. It was a major factor in developing Naruto's character. Yeah, it is an asspull when everyone got resurrected, but then again how many more manga does this on several occasions in one session. Hey Nefertieh, remember what you said American comic books? Marvel is also guilty of constantly killing and resurrecting their characters too. Again, look at Dragonball and how many times they pulled this off.)

Obito - Best friend killed the love of his life.
Naruto - Best friend/brother attempted to kill the love of his life. Difference: Naruto saved her life and prevented bad stuff happening.

Before, I continue I know someone is going to say "Hey, what about Sasori, Orochimaru, Kabuto, etc. etc?" Well, truth be told, he didn't fight them. Some he didn't even talk to or meet, Some he left to others to fight (Sasori and Hidan) , some he just wiped them out off the bat (Kakuzu), some either didn't have an opposite view or didn't contribute any moral opposition (Haku and Zabuza). Sasuke? Now, here is the interesting part. This is a character who Naruto can actually put up an opposing argument to on another subject.

Sasuke - brother killed family and left orphaned, but was well liked by Konoha and very popular.
Naruto - Parents killed (indirectly) by Obito, but wasn't popular or well liked either by the crowd in the beginning.

Naruto does not know what it feels like to have your brother kill your family, but then Sasuke does not know what it is like to be treated like a monster regardless of who you actually are. In comes, Tricksie: "But Sasuke went through a lot worse than just being shunned." This is true, but because he was loved and respected in Konoha is what kills the sympathy. The dude was popular. Yeah, he had a tragic past, but his life wasn't constantly tragic. It's not like he lived a life of hardship and loneliness and if he did, it was because he chose to. He could have stayed in Konoha and find better reasons to live than revenge and did exactly what Itachi wanted him to. He chose to live this lifestyle.

As I said, Sasuke gets this unwanted attention constantly and it doesn't even serve to strengthen any plot point. At best, the only thing it has strengthened is the relationship between Naruto and Sakura to the point of them being a couple. Is this the point? I don't know. Sasuke is not really questioning Naruto's morals when we have Nagato, Obito, and (in the past) Gaara doing that already. Sakura put up a bigger moral compass to Naruto and so has Sai.

Of course, though, we have to remember that we are talking about villains compared to the hero. Sasuke is not a villain. He is an opposition like a wall blocking a path. (Jokes: I actually think the wall is more entertaining to watch) Obito is a villain though.

See what everyone is complaining about is that Naruto doesn't fail. The only thing he has failed is bringing Sasuke back. Other than that, every thing else has been a success, but if he fails then Naruto fails to surpass the previous generation. Do you see the hypocrisy in this? I am basing my logic not on my views, but what I have seen on the views of what all you guys have been saying over the years.

"All the dark history is used on the villains." Well, of course. How else are you going to drive them insane? How else are they going to become villains? You said so yourself you want the villains to be well development. "I want the dark history on Naruto" Well, to quote Nefertieh again "Naruto is not Batman." Naruto is more related to Spider-man if we want to make a comparison.

Obito's development is what many deem "necessary development." He is a main villain, so he needs it. What I call unnecessary development is once again what Sasuke has gotten between the Danzou fight to about now for example. I believe this is what is causing the most problems. If a lot of the unneeded focus was away from Sasuke, then the Uchihas wouldn't feel so much like the main focus. If you took parts of the story away from Sasuke and instead focused it more on Naruto, then none of you would be complaining right now.

You want Naruto to have dark history? How about Sasuke dying? Maybe even Sasuke being turned into a gruesome puppet of Madara like Obito with Naruto having to do the unthinkable and kill his own best friend to save him. That would certainly be a real twist, but as some of you said this can not happen because Naruto needs to succeed where the past has failed. To give a character dark history he first must fail.

Let's take the examples we have of potential failures. What if none of the people who Nagato killed were resurrected? That means Hinata dies which pisses off the NaruHina fans something fierce and so does Kakashi which means we will never know the history behind Obito or why he killed Rin. (And Gai is hopeless so forget him telling you the history.) What if Sasuke killed Sakura? That means that not only does NaruHina not happen, but neither does NaruSaku. This does make Sasuke a bigger villain, but as Nate pointed out in one of last discussions this makes the hero look stupid for "forgiving" him and diminishes the heroes credibility. What if Gaara succeeded in killing Sakura back in part 1? Then Sasuke couldn't kill her in Shippuden. What if Gaara died when they sucked the tailed-beast out? Now you would never know that his mother loved him and wanted nothing, but the best for him. Wasted potential?

You see how much you alter in the story if Naruto actually fails on a grand scale? And this is just some of the points, there are many ways he could have failed along the story arc.

You all want Naruto to fail on a grand scale and give a more edgier tone. Make the hero fallible and not always able to win. That's what you're looking for, right? You want Naruto to fail in an aspect that even though he wins the battle, he can lose the war so to speak. However, just think about this, to have him fail on a grand scale contradicts what everyone says when they say "Succeed where the past have failed."

If Naruto fails on a minor aspect however you personally, Tricksie, would be saying the same thing you're saying now: "It's not the same. It's not comparable." So Kishi has several choices

- Naruto succeeds in everything he does and the villains always lose. Albeit just shake Naruto's foundation a bit.

- Naruto fails sometimes on some major problems, but then this would go against, what people believe, the main moral point of the story in that the "newer generation will succeed where the past failed." If many claim this is not true, then some of you would not be against Sasuke dying in the end or other choices changing. Keep this in mind.

- Naruto will get more focus, but then some villains would not get the history they do get. To some this will make the villain shallow. I supposed you could lengthen the story to include the stuff needed, but like I said be weary of unnecessary development or being too long winded like this post.

Why doesn't Kishi push the boundaries of what he can do? Personally I blame us, the fans. We don't know what we want and if anything changes that we do not like we freak out and complain that it is terrible writing. Tobi is Obito? "Oh Kishi ruined it. Terrible writing." Hinata dies? NaruHina fans: "That's not fair, NaruHina was supposed to be canon." Sakura dies? Us: "That's crap. Why kill off a main character like that?" Naruto gets too much time? "The villains are too shallow." The villains get focus? "The hero is not in it enough."

We don't know what we want from this story because no matter what he does, some one whines. So, I blame us. I blame the reason why he has asspulls. I blame the reason why some things don't happen. Instead of enjoying the story for what he writes, we instead want to tell him how to write it. Again, call me a liar if you must, but this is true. We constantly whine about things that don't go our way. Yes criticism makes things better, but you can't make everything happen. You can't make Naruto end up with both Hinata and Sakura. You can't give the villains a back story AND include the hero in it to develop him at the same time. This is especially true when the back story happens way before the hero is born.

If you can't admit that maybe you are asking for too much. If you can't admit that maybe occasionally you whine too much, then no wonder the manga sucks to some. Yeah, I want stuff to happen too, but that doesn't mean it should happen. I want Sasuke to die, I want Naruto to end up with Sakura, I want Obito to be redeemed in the end, I want a villain who became bad because he thought it was fun (insane or not), but I have to accept that these might not happen.

We still have so much more to go before this manga ends and in any of that time things could change drastically. It could get a darker tone, it could have multiple deaths and problems. A war is still going on. If I have learned anything from story writing it's that in most stories, it always gets darkest before the dawn. It's always get worse before it gets better and right when you think the hero is going to go down this time...he finds a way to win. That kind of moment is something really special.

I don't know how this manga is going to end, but I am not going to sit here pretending I do. If none of this is what you are talking about and I am completely talking about something else, then yes I have no friggin' idea what you are talking about. Either because you don't know what you're talking about or you're not getting your point across clear enough.

CORRECTION. Naruto DID fight Orochimaru, they just didn't finish the fight. Did you forget? Now anyways what you say is ABSOLUTELY brilliant, however talking about the question of logic I'd like to say something to that. As you've said

many people argue here that they may have wanted something here at first and then complain about it later, BUT in their defense they probably did not remember saying such things anyway. Remember a lot of us forget forget what happens

earlier on in the series, as quoted by you because it was so long ago, that unless we have the time and habit to re-read the entire thing, there are details that would fade from memory. Which gets to my next point; there are over 600 chapters

worth of story in Naruto as well as over 600 chapters worth discussions that are formed into MANY tens to hundreds of thousands of pages on this forum (give or take) so while what you say is VERY reasonable it has only one flaw, which is that

you base it on the fact that people remember what they say. I'm pretty sure People are complaining about what they wanted before this how they feel "at the moment" because the could remember what the posted beforebased on what they

desired. If what I say does not make sense, try it yourself: recall the last 10-20 posts you last made with out looking at them, then increase 30-40, then 50-60 and so on. If you can do that your self you've "completely" impressed me but I don't

think everyone here can do such a thing. So what I'm saying that the human memory is not perfect, so saying they are being hypocrites is not entirely justified because they do not remember saying it unless they actually look at their posts.

They are contradicting themselves yes but it is not hypocrisy because hypocrisy, by pinpoint definition is " LYING about one's beliefs and opinions" so they can not lie about what they believe if they can't recall it. Now all of this is coming from

someone who has bitter DETEST for hypocrisy and self contradiction himself and holds the up most standard to try never personally do it, so I can say I may be unbiased with this view but again I can't recall what I say all the time so I can't

guarantee it either. Overall I completely agree with your post, only that saying people are being hypocritical is a bit over dramatic don't you think?

Edited by Phantom_999, 21 October 2012 - 03:44 PM.

[Codus N]

While I agree that your argument makes sense, but you do have to understand that what James was probably referring to is the fact that some people, if they want to debate on apoint, they should remember the general idea of what they said. This is so that you don't end up shooting yourself in the foot, much like politicians tends to do. At the very least people should remember important points of what they said.

At least that's what my two cents are.

Edited by Codus N, 21 October 2012 - 03:52 PM.

[T XD]

So after Rin died and at the hands of Kakashi and going crazy at those ninjas from the mist, he remembered Madara's speeches and saw how they are logical in the sense of when he was in the middle of his chaos, as predicted from this option.

What I find somewhat weird is that he left Kakashi... as he is on the ground, only began plotting for the world he wants to create when he glanced at him and it seems that he came up with an idea about Kakashi.
I don't why but that glancing told me that he knew he will meet him again and fight with him along the plan of creation.

[James S Cassidy]

CORRECTION. Naruto DID fight Orochimaru, they just didn't finish the fight. Did you forget? Now anyways what you say is ABSOLUTELY brilliant, however talking about the question of logic I'd like to say something to that.

Granted, but Naruto didn't have a moral standing off with him. No, I didn't forget, but I see what you did thar 8). Naruto kind of just went off his rocker and went at it. Naruto fought several other characters in the series who behaved on more of "I'm the bad guy rawr." Orochimaru kind of was of a moral stand off with Jiraiya and Tsunade than Naruto. I don't feel Orochimaru pushed Naruto's views on where he stands or put up opposing arguments.

Other than Obito, Gaara, and Nagato and maybe a few others, they didn't offer some kind of other-sided view that challenges Naruto to rethink how he sees the world.

As you've said many people argue here that they may have wanted something here at first and then complain about it later, BUT in their defense they probably did not remember saying such things anyway. Remember a lot of us forget forget what happens

earlier on in the series, as quoted by you because it was so long ago, that unless we have the time and habit to re-read the entire thing, there are details that would fade from memory.

Which gets to my next point; there are over 600 chapters worth of story in Naruto as well as over 600 chapters worth discussions that are formed into MANY tens to hundreds of thousands of pages on this forum (give or take) so while what you say is VERY reasonable it has only one flaw, which is that you base it on the fact that people remember what they say.

This is a double edge sword, my friend. Because the series is so long, I could argue that ten chapters is nothing, but Obito's development is a drop in the bucket compared to the 600+ chapters pot.

Like I said, people have been giving off this tone like Obito/Uchiha have been the main focus of the manga, but the fact that he only had maybe 10 chapters so far of development kind of seems insignificant compared to say "500 chapters of Naruto." Let me ask, off the top of your head how much of the manga centers around Naruto's journey? Myself, I'd say about 75% at least.

I'll admit, a while ago I thought so too that the Uchiha were taking over as the main focus, but really thinking about they are not. It just seems like they are, but it's only because of Sasuke's journey that makes it seem like they are. So yes, I was myself once a walking contradiction, but you can't blame a guy wanting t hare his knowledge with the rest. Maybe that's what I wanted to do here.

Yeah, I did fly off the handle earlier, but as I said I was having a bad day when I wrote it. For that, I am truly sorry.

I'm pretty sure People are complaining about what they wanted before this how they feel "at the moment" because the could remember what the posted beforebased on what they desired. If what I say does not make sense, try it yourself: recall the last 10-20 posts you last made with out looking at them, then increase 30-40, then 50-60 and so on. If you can do that your self you've "completely" impressed me but I don't think everyone here can do such a thing. So what I'm saying that the human memory is not perfect, so saying they are being hypocrites is not entirely justified because they do not remember saying it unless they actually look at their posts.

And yet, I can remember lol. (Past 5 weeks I discussed Sasuke's role, Sakura's role, the philosophy of opposites, and now villain to Hero ratios or fan veiwing.) Okay okay, everyone is different, but my arguments are not based what people said five, maybe 6 years ago. I am however have been basing my entire argument of what people have been saying constantly over the past 6 months. Some arguments are even based on what happened 3-4 weeks ago. You may not remember every post, but I am going to assume you remember the major debate that have occurred because they are based on your own views. Unless you have change your views on a bi-weekly bases I doubt someone would forget that easily especially if they made those views into a practice.

They are contradicting themselves yes but it is not hypocrisy because hypocrisy, by pinpoint definition is " LYING about one's beliefs and opinions" so they can not lie about what they believe if they can't recall it. Now all of this is coming from

someone who has bitter DETEST for hypocrisy and self contradiction himself and holds the up most standard to try never personally do it, so I can say I may be unbiased with this view but again I can't recall what I say all the time so I can't

Fair enough. However, the hypocrisy is not about not forgetting the past chapters or so, but when I see people complain of the villain being too shallow or doesn't have enough back story, but then complain that Naruto gets ignored when the villain starts getting fleshed out is the real hypocrisy I was trying to point out.

And honestly, some were complaining about too much Obitio just two pages in to his development. Forgetting Naruto got development is one thing, complaining that the villains gets attention when that is what you wanted is another. No offense to anyone, but this is becoming a habit among some members.

By definition, hypocrisy is more about saying one thing and doing the opposite. Like chiding others for making fun of a character, but then you make of them yourself. Not so much lying about their beliefs. I always say we are all hypocrites from time to time and we are all guilty sooner or later. However, the ones who do it on purpose are the ones I detest.

I don't mean to point at people and say "You're hypocrite, burn him," but just making people aware of the hypocrisy they are creating. It can be due to bad memory, but I consider it a gesture of good faith to remind them say "didn't you say you wanted this?"

guarantee it either. Overall I completely agree with your post, only that saying people are being hypocritical is a bit over dramatic don't you think?

Thanks and maybe. It is a strong word to use I admit, but I could say that people complaining about Naruto not getting enough attention and then turn around saying the villains or other characters are not getting the same amount of love is a bit...unnerving, don't you think?

We can call it a "contradiction" if you wish or if you find that to be a better word use, but I think my point still stands. We can't say we want these villains to be fleshed out, but then complain when Naruto gets ignored. That's just bad taste and kind of a stupid argument to put forward. That's the point I really want to drive home here.

Edit: Okay, so I asked a few language majors and reading specialist about the difference between a "contradiction" and "hypocrisy." From what they told me was that a contradiction is two things that are a paradox of each other. Such as a "You're pretty ugly," "A serious joke," etc. A hypocrisy is what they describe is saying one thing and then doing another.

I brought this situation and this is exactly what I said.
"You are reading a book and you say "I want the villains to be well thought out and have a great back story." In the middle of the story, when the author is giving the villain a detailed back story, you exclaim "I am tired of it being all about the villains, the hero gets no attention." What would you call that?"

They said that would be a hypocrisy. The people I asked were my mother who is a language instructor and got her PHD in Reading and my brother who is also a language and reading specialist. I don't know how you would take this information, but I just want to let you know that I did try to distinguish the difference between the two and this is the answer I got. I didn't persuade them to join my side and I tried to keep my info as unbiased as possible.

Just wanted to show an outside opinion.

While I agree that your argument makes sense, but you do have to understand that what James was probably referring to is the fact that some people, if they want to debate on apoint, they should remember the general idea of what they said. This is so that you don't end up shooting yourself in the foot, much like politicians tends to do. At the very least people should remember important points of what they said.

At least that's what my two cents are.

This too. Exactly. Thanks, Codus. Mistakes do happen, we are all human even me. Shocking, right? Okay I am just having a little fun.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 21 October 2012 - 06:01 PM.

[Phantom_999]

While I agree that your argument makes sense, but you do have to understand that what James was probably referring to is the fact that some people, if they want to debate on apoint, they should remember the general idea of what they said. This is so that you don't end up shooting yourself in the foot, much like politicians tends to do. At the very least people should remember important points of what they said.

At least that's what my two cents are.

the more people get into a debate the more they may forget their point before sometimes. Its natural. Not an excuse but natural

Granted, but Naruto didn't have a moral standing off with him. No, I didn't forget, but I see what you did thar 8). Naruto kind of just went off his rocker and went at it. Naruto fought several other characters in the series who behaved on more of "I'm the bad guy rawr." Orochimaru kind of was of a moral stand off with Jiraiya and Tsunade than Naruto. I don't feel Orochimaru pushed Naruto's views on where he stands or put up opposing arguments.

Other than Obito, Gaara, and Nagato and maybe a few others, they didn't offer some kind of other-sided view that challenges Naruto to rethink how he sees the world.



This is a double edge sword, my friend. Because the series is so long, I could argue that ten chapters is nothing, but Obito's development is a drop in the bucket compared to the 600+ chapters pot.

Like I said, people have been giving off this tone like Obito/Uchiha have been the main focus of the manga, but the fact that he only had maybe 10 chapters so far of development kind of seems insignificant compared to say "500 chapters of Naruto." Let me ask, off the top of your head how much of the manga centers around Naruto's journey? Myself, I'd say about 75% at least.

I'll admit, a while ago I thought so too that the Uchiha were taking over as the main focus, but really thinking about they are not. It just seems like they are, but it's only because of Sasuke's journey that makes it seem like they are. So yes, I was myself once a walking contradiction, but you can't blame a guy wanting t hare his knowledge with the rest. Maybe that's what I wanted to do here.

Yeah, I did fly off the handle earlier, but as I said I was having a bad day when I wrote it. For that, I am truly sorry.



And yet, I can remember lol. (Past 5 weeks I discussed Sasuke's role, Sakura's role, the philosophy of opposites, and now villain to Hero ratios or fan veiwing.) Okay okay, everyone is different, but my arguments are not based what people said five, maybe 6 years ago. I am however have been basing my entire argument of what people have been saying constantly over the past 6 months. Some arguments are even based on what happened 3-4 weeks ago. You may not remember every post, but I am going to assume you remember the major debate that have occurred because they are based on your own views. Unless you have change your views on a bi-weekly bases I doubt someone would forget that easily especially if they made those views into a practice.



Fair enough. However, the hypocrisy is not about not forgetting the past chapters or so, but when I see people complain of the villain being too shallow or doesn't have enough back story, but then complain that Naruto gets ignored when the villain starts getting fleshed out is the real hypocrisy I was trying to point out.

And honestly, some were complaining about too much Obitio just two pages in to his development. Forgetting Naruto got development is one thing, complaining that the villains gets attention when that is what you wanted is another. No offense to anyone, but this is becoming a habit among some members.

By definition, hypocrisy is more about saying one thing and doing the opposite. Like chiding others for making fun of a character, but then you make of them yourself. Not so much lying about their beliefs. I always say we are all hypocrites from time to time and we are all guilty sooner or later. However, the ones who do it on purpose are the ones I detest.

I don't mean to point at people and say "You're hypocrite, burn him," but just making people aware of the hypocrisy they are creating. It can be due to bad memory, but I consider it a gesture of good faith to remind them say "didn't you say you wanted this?"



Thanks and maybe. It is a strong word to use I admit, but I could say that people complaining about Naruto not getting enough attention and then turn around saying the villains or other characters are not getting the same amount of love is a bit...unnerving, don't you think?

We can call it a "contradiction" if you wish or if you find that to be a better word use, but I think my point still stands. We can't say we want these villains to be fleshed out, but then complain when Naruto gets ignored. That's just bad taste and kind of a stupid argument to put forward. That's the point I really want to drive home here.

Edit: Okay, so I asked a few language majors and reading specialist about the difference between a "contradiction" and "hypocrisy." From what they told me was that a contradiction is two things that are a paradox of each other. Such as a "You're pretty ugly," "A serious joke," etc. A hypocrisy is what they describe is saying one thing and then doing another.

I brought this situation and this is exactly what I said.
"You are reading a book and you say "I want the villains to be well thought out and have a great back story." In the middle of the story, when the author is giving the villain a detailed back story, you exclaim "I am tired of it being all about the villains, the hero gets no attention." What would you call that?"

They said that would be a hypocrisy. The people I asked were my mother who is a language instructor and got her PHD in Reading and my brother who is also a language and reading specialist. I don't know how you would take this information, but I just want to let you know that I did try to distinguish the difference between the two and this is the answer I got. I didn't persuade them to join my side and I tried to keep my info as unbiased as possible.

Just wanted to show an outside opinion.



This too. Exactly. Thanks, Codus. Mistakes do happen, we are all human even me. Shocking, right? Okay I am just having a little fun.

Orochimaru did not test Naruto on a moral level that is true but I feel that the fight DID test Naruto on a emotional level; to see see what he was willing to do or become for the sake of Sasuke. True, people are sounding like they want Obito

needs to get off the screen for so they can move on with the story, but maybe it's because they getting pretty heated for how this will affect the plot and probably did not word what they wanted to say properly. Well I could be wrong but logic is

partly pointing out possibilities. So yeah I understand that you enjoy learning more about Obito and that's cool, and I'm sure others do too but perhaps as I've said before they want to see how this will affect the current plot so maybe they were

just saying it like Obito's development bores them out of impulse. AGAIN I could be wrong but couldn't hurt to get out that maybe I'd say. And on that note I also thought the Uchiha history was boring after a while too; not because it is boring

but what we are given after Obito's revelation to Sasuke are just just side tidbits we can do without. Yeah debating should be about giving and getting your points across in a logical and rational manner but emotions CAN get in the way of that of

course. Happens to me on verbal debates all the time cause I have TERRIBLE audio memory and sometimes I get too passionate that I forget some ground on my views. Hypocrisy is indeed saying something and doing the opposite of those

words, but there there is also a difference between doing the opposite because you don't truly believe in it and doing it because, despite really believing in it you may lose sight of it due to self justification. Yeah I don't see the point of wanting

something and not appreciating after when it Happens, cause I do personally enjoy seeing theses flashbacks to help us understand the characters better and I never really complain about them, but I confess that a part of me want to also see

the high, intensive and emotional battles that I also love in the series. So my point in all of this is to give some different views from yours, so we don't all only see one side of the coin and can justify our decisions that much more. THAT was a

great verbal (typing ) spar, Lets do that again sometime James.

Edited by Phantom_999, 22 October 2012 - 01:24 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

Orochimaru did not test Naruto on a moral level that is true but I feel that the fight DID test Naruto on a emotional level; to see see what he was willing to do or become for the sake of Sasuke. True, people are sounding like they want Obito needs to get off the screen for so they can move on with the story, but maybe it's because they getting pretty heated for how this will affect the plot and probably did not word what they wanted to say properly.

Possibly, but I can't speak for everyone on here, but I can this. Patience is a virtue. Great art can't be rushed and I rather have a slow well thought out story than a plot full of holes and rushed into the ground. I can understand boredom when it is like 15 chapters of nothing because that's like 15 weeks easy. The problem I don't understand is how people were complaining about this not even two weeks in. 15 maybe, but just 2? Come on. Seriously? I know you're eager, but why the lack of patience?

As for the Orochimaru fight...hmmm...I will indeed agree that it did cause Naruto to have an emotion breakdown and rethink how to use his power, but I don't really count it simply because it wasn't Orochimaru that made him reflect, but Yamato who told him what really happened. It's hard to explain, but I guess what I am saying is is that Orochimaru didn't have a tragic history which turned him evil and Naruto clashes with his conflicts of morality with his own definition of pain. It wasn't even because Naruto has no relative instances, but that Orochimaru was just not a victim of circumstance. Otherwise I would have added Sai to the list as well who also pushed the Sasuke hot button.

That's just my view.

Well I could be wrong but logic is partly pointing out possibilities. So yeah I understand that you enjoy learning more about Obito and that's cool, and I'm sure others do too but perhaps as I've said before they want to see how this will affect the current plot so maybe they were just saying it like Obito's development bores them out of impulse. AGAIN I could be wrong but couldn't hurt to get out that maybe I'd say. And on that note I also thought the Uchiha history was boring after a while too; not because it is boring but what we are given after Obito's revelation to Sasuke are just just side tidbits we can do without.

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't understand why people want this detailed history of a character, but have no patience to let Kishi do it. We know it takes about a week for each chapter and you can't change it. So we have to make do with waiting. I don't know, I just don't see people sitting her complaining about not getting what they want, but when they do get it, they don't appreciate it or feel they want more. (Note: If someone is offended by this, chances are they're one of these people.)

I understand why, but that doesn't mean I think it is right.

What bored me after a while was rehashing of the Uchiha Massacre and this is because it was constantly being told over and over again. It wasn't that the topic was boring, but rather we waste some pages in the manga just re-reading the same thing. I hate that. Just as much as I hate when I wait a week for an anime episode to come out and it turns out to be a "re-cap" episode.

Yeah debating should be about giving and getting your points across in a logical and rational manner but emotions CAN get in the way of that of course. Happens to me on verbal debates all the time cause I have TERRIBLE audio memory and sometimes I get too passionate that I forget some ground on my views.

Hypocrisy is indeed saying something and doing the opposite of those words, but there there is also a difference between doing the opposite because you don't truly believe in it and doing it because, despite really believing in it you may lose sight of it due to self justification. Yeah I don't see the point of wanting something and not appreciating after when it Happens, cause I do personally enjoy seeing theses flashbacks to help us understand the characters better and I never really complain about them, but I confess that a part of me want to also see the high, intensive and emotional battles that I also love in the series.

Forgive me, but if you don't have your heart set into the ideas you give, then automatically you lose the debate. Naruto is my passion. A hobby I enjoy doing so when I do these kind of debates I go full throttle with no brakes. Yeah I caused problems every now and then, but nothing so big that it can't be erased or forgiven. Anyone who knows me knows how passionate I am. Otherwise I wouldn't be making such long posts. lol

I love it when people are passionate about things. It helps make the debates that much more fun, but if you have this "I don't care" attitude, then what's the point? Yeah it gets emotional, but it just means they are just as adamant as you are. I don't want to discourage people, but I just want people to realize that you have to be careful with what you say in a debate, because you can discredit yourself even if it was a single mistake.

I respect people who stand up with passion in their views, even if I disagree.

So my point in all of this is to give some different views from yours, so we don't all only see one side of the coin and can justify our decisions that much more. THAT was a great verbal (typing ) spar, Lets do that again sometime James.

Different views are fine, but I just don't like people who complain when they get everything they want. I once had a discussion with Shadow Wolf a couple of months ago about whining and criticism. If you don't like the chapter and want to give that criticism, that's fine. Go for it. If you have ideas I would love to hear them, but if all you can do is "This chapter sucks," then why even post at all? I am just saying.

And yes, you have dueled quite well. I indeed anticipate the day we can duel again.

I think our discussions have kind of taken up a lot of room. XD

Edited by James S Cassidy, 21 October 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[TerrorKing]

Jens Otto Krag, a former Danish prime minister once said "Man har et standpunkt til man tager et nyt", which roughly translates to "You have a standpoint until you take a new one".

On the one hand this can be seen as an expression of one of the worst qualities a person can have, since constantly changing one's opinions or standpoints can be see as having a weak conviction. It can also mean that you are naive and therefore easily misled or deceived. At worst, it can mean that you only have a certain standpoint because it is currently benefial to you and that it's only really about personal gain.

On the other hand, this can also be seen as an expression of having the maturity to realize when your positions are wrong and thus change them accordingly, which is a very admirable trait. I mean what would you rather do? Stick with an opinon that you yourself think is wrong or change it to something you can actually voich for? I know what I would do and at the end of the day, I would much rather be able to look myself in the mirror than sticking with an opinion "Just because..."

Perhaps that's also how those people you describe in you post feels about Naruto, James.

As for me, I know what I want from this story. I want the good guys to win. I want Naruto and his generation to suceed where the previous generation(s) failed. I want Sakura to get the development she deserves and lastly I want NS to become canon.

As for the story itself, I don't really have any objections. I may not always be interested in what's currently going on and I may sometimes question or even downright disagree with the direction that Kishi is taking the story but overall, as long as the above three criteria are met then I don't really mind.

The way I see it, Naruto's development is pretty much over. He's already accomplished most of his goals and he's pretty much come to terms with who and what he is and why he became that way. The only thing that's left for him now is to surpass Jiraiya and bring peace to the world, or at the very least make it more stable and without all the conflict and strife that creates people like Obtio and Sasuke. He also needs to save Sasuke someway or antoher, become Hokage and hopefully get the girl. As for Sakura, I just hope that she will be able to somehow surpass Tsunade, whether it be in strength or love ot both.

Edited by TerrorKing, 22 October 2012 - 02:21 AM.

[tricksie]

James' post --Click here to view--

I'm sorry for getting angry. I had a very bad day yesterday and yes, you are right. I was wrong in a few things I have said, however some of you are being very hypocritical about what you want from this manga and here is a novel to explain what everyone's views on the manga on general belief based on several things that have been said from some members.

Every time we discuss villains, the common idea is that we can not have villains that just do things just to do things. That would be "shallow" as some of you would say. Ciadhra says that the "more realistic villains have hardships in their past that either made them insane or made them believe the world is terrible." Nefertieh says "This isn't some American comic book. We need to explain it. There has to be a reason." (paraphrase of course.)

Fair enough, that's what we got. So by that standard that you all set up, Obito is being shown why he became a villain. That's why we are reading all of this now. If there was no explanation and all we got is "Obito is a villain" How many would cry foul saying right now "This is bullcrap?" From what we saw when Obito was revealed, a good half of you complained about having no explanation even before Kishi has a chance to explain. Call me a liar and look back at the threads.

Let me ask you this, what is more interesting? Seeing the hero's past life and how they succeed or watching how the villains fall into darkness? 9/10 of you are going to saying "I much prefer to see the history of the villain." This is because the hero's story happens as we read it and because most hero stories are origin stories. Hardly a time happens when we just come to a hero already being a hero with a vague history.

Now, Obito has gotten NO development until just recently (Not even ten chapters, yet), but some of you think like all we have been doing is talking about Obito for the entire manga. At least this is the tone you all are giving off. Yet over the years all I have ever see is "Kakashi needs more development. Obito needs more development. Such and such character needs more development." Guess what happens when you want a character to gain more development? The main hero has to be put aside just so you can explain it. So what do you want?

Keep in mind of another manga Dragonball where Goku didn't have that much development on a moral or philosophical level either. (Come on. "I conked my head and became a good guy") Yeah he faced problems and villains, but he was never challenged on a moral or philosophical level. Are any of you going to complain about this? Naruto has on several occasions. The worst thing was Goku went through is he got angry a few times but it wasn't a problem. (And well, the thing with the moon.) It wasn't like Naruto who got angry and lost control nearly destroying everyone. Vegeta went through more on comparison to Goku.

Want to see a real ironic thing, Tricksie? The fact that you all want these villains to have detailed pasts and explanations, but then start complaining that the villains take up too much of the story and Naruto is left out not really thinking that Naruto's story is happening in real time or the fact that Naruto's development happened much quicker. (Seems everyone forgot the waterfall chapters, everyone forgot the drama of Sakura confession's, everyone forgot all that has happened in Part 1, everyone forgot everything that has happened to Naruto for the first half of shippuden.)

Also, you all keep forgetting that Naruto's trails always end on a positive note. because as some of you all keep pointng out "The present generation HAS to surpass the previous ones." I guess if Naruto failed, then he wouldn't have surpassed now would he? Again, this is basing off the logic that many of the members presented to me. Naruto has went through the same trails, but succeeded where the past have failed. Let me show you and I'll do this villain by villain. Let's start with the first major villain.

Gaara - shunned as a child, treated as a monster. Village thought he should die. Father did cruel things to him
Naruto - shunned as a child, treated as a monster. Difference: Positive influences. Hokage forbid the parents from telling their kids, and not everyone saw Naruto as a monster. Plus didn't have a heartless father.

Nagato - Best friend was killed by his own hand, but was forced by Yahiko. Double whammy here cause Yahiko was the positive influence.
Naruto - Several friends were thought killed. Some actually did. Difference: Friends were brought back to life or didn't really die.
(And Nate, I know how much you despise this logic with Nagato, but just because you do does not mean you can take it out of the equation every time it is brought up. It was a major factor in developing Naruto's character. Yeah, it is an asspull when everyone got resurrected, but then again how many more manga does this on several occasions in one session. Hey Nefertieh, remember what you said American comic books? Marvel is also guilty of constantly killing and resurrecting their characters too. Again, look at Dragonball and how many times they pulled this off.)

Obito - Best friend killed the love of his life.
Naruto - Best friend/brother attempted to kill the love of his life. Difference: Naruto saved her life and prevented bad stuff happening.

Before, I continue I know someone is going to say "Hey, what about Sasori, Orochimaru, Kabuto, etc. etc?" Well, truth be told, he didn't fight them. Some he didn't even talk to or meet, Some he left to others to fight (Sasori and Hidan) , some he just wiped them out off the bat (Kakuzu), some either didn't have an opposite view or didn't contribute any moral opposition (Haku and Zabuza). Sasuke? Now, here is the interesting part. This is a character who Naruto can actually put up an opposing argument to on another subject.

Sasuke - brother killed family and left orphaned, but was well liked by Konoha and very popular.
Naruto - Parents killed (indirectly) by Obito, but wasn't popular or well liked either by the crowd in the beginning.

Naruto does not know what it feels like to have your brother kill your family, but then Sasuke does not know what it is like to be treated like a monster regardless of who you actually are. In comes, Tricksie: "But Sasuke went through a lot worse than just being shunned." This is true, but because he was loved and respected in Konoha is what kills the sympathy. The dude was popular. Yeah, he had a tragic past, but his life wasn't constantly tragic. It's not like he lived a life of hardship and loneliness and if he did, it was because he chose to. He could have stayed in Konoha and find better reasons to live than revenge and did exactly what Itachi wanted him to. He chose to live this lifestyle.

As I said, Sasuke gets this unwanted attention constantly and it doesn't even serve to strengthen any plot point. At best, the only thing it has strengthened is the relationship between Naruto and Sakura to the point of them being a couple. Is this the point? I don't know. Sasuke is not really questioning Naruto's morals when we have Nagato, Obito, and (in the past) Gaara doing that already. Sakura put up a bigger moral compass to Naruto and so has Sai.

Of course, though, we have to remember that we are talking about villains compared to the hero. Sasuke is not a villain. He is an opposition like a wall blocking a path. (Jokes: I actually think the wall is more entertaining to watch) Obito is a villain though.

See what everyone is complaining about is that Naruto doesn't fail. The only thing he has failed is bringing Sasuke back. Other than that, every thing else has been a success, but if he fails then Naruto fails to surpass the previous generation. Do you see the hypocrisy in this? I am basing my logic not on my views, but what I have seen on the views of what all you guys have been saying over the years.

"All the dark history is used on the villains." Well, of course. How else are you going to drive them insane? How else are they going to become villains? You said so yourself you want the villains to be well development. "I want the dark history on Naruto" Well, to quote Nefertieh again "Naruto is not Batman." Naruto is more related to Spider-man if we want to make a comparison.

Obito's development is what many deem "necessary development." He is a main villain, so he needs it. What I call unnecessary development is once again what Sasuke has gotten between the Danzou fight to about now for example. I believe this is what is causing the most problems. If a lot of the unneeded focus was away from Sasuke, then the Uchihas wouldn't feel so much like the main focus. If you took parts of the story away from Sasuke and instead focused it more on Naruto, then none of you would be complaining right now.

You want Naruto to have dark history? How about Sasuke dying? Maybe even Sasuke being turned into a gruesome puppet of Madara like Obito with Naruto having to do the unthinkable and kill his own best friend to save him. That would certainly be a real twist, but as some of you said this can not happen because Naruto needs to succeed where the past has failed. To give a character dark history he first must fail.

Let's take the examples we have of potential failures. What if none of the people who Nagato killed were resurrected? That means Hinata dies which pisses off the NaruHina fans something fierce and so does Kakashi which means we will never know the history behind Obito or why he killed Rin. (And Gai is hopeless so forget him telling you the history.) What if Sasuke killed Sakura? That means that not only does NaruHina not happen, but neither does NaruSaku. This does make Sasuke a bigger villain, but as Nate pointed out in one of last discussions this makes the hero look stupid for "forgiving" him and diminishes the heroes credibility. What if Gaara succeeded in killing Sakura back in part 1? Then Sasuke couldn't kill her in Shippuden. What if Gaara died when they sucked the tailed-beast out? Now you would never know that his mother loved him and wanted nothing, but the best for him. Wasted potential?

You see how much you alter in the story if Naruto actually fails on a grand scale? And this is just some of the points, there are many ways he could have failed along the story arc.

You all want Naruto to fail on a grand scale and give a more edgier tone. Make the hero fallible and not always able to win. That's what you're looking for, right? You want Naruto to fail in an aspect that even though he wins the battle, he can lose the war so to speak. However, just think about this, to have him fail on a grand scale contradicts what everyone says when they say "Succeed where the past have failed."

If Naruto fails on a minor aspect however you personally, Tricksie, would be saying the same thing you're saying now: "It's not the same. It's not comparable." So Kishi has several choices

- Naruto succeeds in everything he does and the villains always lose. Albeit just shake Naruto's foundation a bit.

- Naruto fails sometimes on some major problems, but then this would go against, what people believe, the main moral point of the story in that the "newer generation will succeed where the past failed." If many claim this is not true, then some of you would not be against Sasuke dying in the end or other choices changing. Keep this in mind.

- Naruto will get more focus, but then some villains would not get the history they do get. To some this will make the villain shallow. I supposed you could lengthen the story to include the stuff needed, but like I said be weary of unnecessary development or being too long winded like this post.

Why doesn't Kishi push the boundaries of what he can do? Personally I blame us, the fans. We don't know what we want and if anything changes that we do not like we freak out and complain that it is terrible writing. Tobi is Obito? "Oh Kishi ruined it. Terrible writing." Hinata dies? NaruHina fans: "That's not fair, NaruHina was supposed to be canon." Sakura dies? Us: "That's crap. Why kill off a main character like that?" Naruto gets too much time? "The villains are too shallow." The villains get focus? "The hero is not in it enough."

We don't know what we want from this story because no matter what he does, some one whines. So, I blame us. I blame the reason why he has asspulls. I blame the reason why some things don't happen. Instead of enjoying the story for what he writes, we instead want to tell him how to write it. Again, call me a liar if you must, but this is true. We constantly whine about things that don't go our way. Yes criticism makes things better, but you can't make everything happen. You can't make Naruto end up with both Hinata and Sakura. You can't give the villains a back story AND include the hero in it to develop him at the same time. This is especially true when the back story happens way before the hero is born.

If you can't admit that maybe you are asking for too much. If you can't admit that maybe occasionally you whine too much, then no wonder the manga sucks to some. Yeah, I want stuff to happen too, but that doesn't mean it should happen. I want Sasuke to die, I want Naruto to end up with Sakura, I want Obito to be redeemed in the end, I want a villain who became bad because he thought it was fun (insane or not), but I have to accept that these might not happen.

We still have so much more to go before this manga ends and in any of that time things could change drastically. It could get a darker tone, it could have multiple deaths and problems. A war is still going on. If I have learned anything from story writing it's that in most stories, it always gets darkest before the dawn. It's always get worse before it gets better and right when you think the hero is going to go down this time...he finds a way to win. That kind of moment is something really special.

I don't know how this manga is going to end, but I am not going to sit here pretending I do. If none of this is what you are talking about and I am completely talking about something else, then yes I have no friggin' idea what you are talking about. Either because you don't know what you're talking about or you're not getting your point across clear enough.

James, I didn't realize I'd been personally named in the above post, or I'd responded sooner. Nothing you've written encourages me to change my opinion, and knowing that you've judged dissenting opinions as whiny and hypocritical does not make feel very patient in understanding yours.

Naruto does not know what it feels like to have your brother kill your family, but then Sasuke does not know what it is like to be treated like a monster regardless of who you actually are. In comes, Tricksie: "But Sasuke went through a lot worse than just being shunned." This is true, but because he was loved and respected in Konoha is what kills the sympathy. The dude was popular. Yeah, he had a tragic past, but his life wasn't constantly tragic. It's not like he lived a life of hardship and loneliness and if he did, it was because he chose to. He could have stayed in Konoha and find better reasons to live than revenge and did exactly what Itachi wanted him to. He chose to live this lifestyle.

This is a perfect example of how I differ: Being love and respected does not kill the sympathy for me! This is simply your opinion.

Sasuke's life was constantly tragic. Itachi set him on that course the moment he killed their parents, by taunting Sasuke with it and telling him to run and be scared and seek him out for revenge. Sasuke was never the same. How could he live out some peaceful life in Konoha? And you say that's what Itachi wanted? Itachi wanted him to find him! To seek revenge. That's why Itachi snapped his arm and told him he was too weak.

Again, my opinion is very different.

You say people want Naruto to fail. But I don't want Naruto to fail. I never said that. Nor have I read that from anyone else. I think he should be challenged and tested. There is a difference.

We don't know what we want from this story because no matter what he does, some one whines. So, I blame us. I blame the reason why he has asspulls. I blame the reason why some things don't happen. Instead of enjoying the story for what he writes, we instead want to tell him how to write it. Again, call me a liar if you must, but this is true. We constantly whine about things that don't go our way. Yes criticism makes things better, but you can't make everything happen. You can't make Naruto end up with both Hinata and Sakura. You can't give the villains a back story AND include the hero in it to develop him at the same time. This is especially true when the back story happens way before the hero is born.

Sorry, but you'll get no applause from me by saying "some people" are hypocritical or whiny. An insult is still an insult, whether you attach a name to it or not. And this post is treading close to being insulting, whether it's to people you are naming or aiming at through the "some people" moniker.

Since I am not "some people," I will only speak for myself. I have no idea where you are going with the hypocrisy notion. Just because you haven't taken the time to understand where I'm coming from doesn't mean I'm being hypocritical. I'm not. My opinion has not changed.

But if you are going to make sweeping claims that it's whining or that I'm a hypocrite or that I'm "not using the right words" because I disagree with you…then the problem is in your perception. Not my opinion.

I have said none of these things about you nor anyone else who has different opinions. Because they are just that. Different opinions.

I disagree with you. On almost all points. And I have repeatedly given my reasons. If you can't accept that, then it doesn't matter to me. I am not trying to sway you. And sharing my opinion with other like-minded people on this board is not whining or hypocritical, on my part or anyone else who thinks the same.

If you can't admit that maybe occasionally you whine too much, then no wonder the manga sucks to some.

Do not insult other posters, then excuse it with a let's-all-wait-and-see approach. Your tone dissuades other people from posting their own opinions. Especially with the amount of people who dogpile on afterwards, thinking it's ok. It's not.

[Shadow Wolf]

Do not insult other posters, then excuse it with a let's-all-wait-and-see approach. Your tone dissuades other people from posting their own opinions. Especially with the amount of people who dogpile on afterwards, thinking it's ok. It's not.

It's funny how you tell him to not insult people and yet you are doing the opposite. If people agree with him, it's not because they are "dogpiling" on the post, but because they find their point agreeable and because they share a similar (yet, not identical) opinion. Don't you think people will be offended by that?

That aside, I also agree with James on some of the points he say. Let's face it: when we don't get what we want, we have a bit of a habit to express disappointment in it, and maybe even complain about it (heck, we do that as kids so many times). But if we're to stand on a point, then don't be ashamed to defend it. And if you're wrong, then you just say it. If you still believe in your point, then like James himself said to me once: "Agree to disagree".

Anyway, let me bring at least something I've been pondering for a while. It may have probably been discussed but I wish to share it still:

I remember some people saying that if Obito became evil because of Rin's death, then it would be a lame excuse (I'm not quoting anyone's words... just trying to paraphrase the point). Now, this is what happened, right? Does this means that Obito has one of the lamest excuses to become a villain?

Another thing which has been making me think is the fact that many situations in Naruto are product of misunderstandings or points of view. If this point stands, then I'm wondering Obito's reaction on this chapter. Instead of having an open mind and asking what happened, he just centered himself on Rin's death and pretty much convinced himself that Kakashi was the one who let her die. This reminds me a lot of Gerald Robotnik's story in Sonic Adventure 2 (in where the death of his granddaughter Maria drove him to create a program in the Space Colony ARK to destroy the world, blaming humans for her death). So my question is: If you could change the reason or the motive Obito had to became evil, what would you like to see?

Finally, I also remember something about Hashirama and Madara (I think it was about how could a woman be the reason they became rivals). So uh.... I know Hashirama married Mito Uzumaki, so does this means that she was the one? Just wondering...

Anyway, I think that's pretty much it for now.

[Chucky-kun]

Here's some food for thought, where is black zetsu, and what happened to tobi-zetsu

[CloudMountainJuror]

So would I be right to say that You want a villain that stays convicted to beliefs and actions UNTIL THE END? One that does'st find a crack in there logic or reasoning and have it crumbled into the dust? One that will take what they were and are to the grave? Well not that I don't agree, but if it's because you say that it's not logical, don't you think for them to change instantly is JUST as logical, cause honestly The TALK not jutsu really does S**T to them. If they change, it's because they choose or want to, not because Naruto forced them too. Change is by choice. I mean think about it, Shonen series thrives on the ideal of good overcoming evil, which is a little corny and linear, I know not to mention basic and a little dull but hey Dragon Ball was the same thing. Most of the villains became "good" so to speak at some point or another. But anyways I don't see it as a waste of character if they change, because waste of character is really if they die without ever being developed or addressed. If they were introduced then cast off to the side THAT is a waste of character so I'm don't disagree with you only saying that changing them does not waste their character or make them less interesting really, It is only that you prefer them to be evil and stay as A**H***s until the end when they RIP.

You're right about the kind of villain I want, Phantom. Thank you for putting the words into my mouth. A villain that sticks to what they believe until the end is what I want. That being said, Naruto doesn't have to fail in defeating them. Of course he'll defeat them. I just need some difference here, is all. Some more variety. That's why I would prefer Obito not to be redeemed. It would be very refreshing if he actually stuck to his actions until the very end, along with Madara.

Or Kishi could bring Kabuto back, have him take back what Orochimaru took from him, and have him take over again, with the final confrontation being Naruto vs. Kabuto, the two people who were capable of surpassing their masters and becoming perfect sages, facing each other until death in a battle for the ninja world as we know it.

I can dream, can't I?


As for the other points, I'm not saying that it was illogical for Gaara or Nagato to change their choices after Naruto talked to them. Not at all. I'm just saying that it's getting very repetitive, yaknow? Now maybe he's trying to make a theme here of "everyone can be persuaded to be good", but that's pushing the boundaries just a bit. We all know that many people can't be reasoned with, no matter how much we may try. There's always exceptions, and I'd like very much to see more of these exceptions in this manga.

By the way, most villains became good in Dragonball? Hm. Well, I didn't read the original Dragonball, but in DBZ the major baddies didn't turn good (except Vegeta, of course). Cell, Evil Buu, and Freiza stayed their course until their bitter end. And this is what I'm asking for in Naruto: a major baddie who stays their course until the very end.

Again, Obito's redemption may not be illogical. It may make perfect sense. At this point, again, it's just a case of irritating repetition, for the reason I stated above. (I don't want to repeat myself too much here, do I? Or I'll become what I'm complaining about. Ha. Irony!)


Oh, before I forget, great post James. Even though some of it I do find myself disagreeing with (there's not much that I do), it was a brilliant post. Well explained and thorough.

Here's some food for thought, where is black zetsu, and what happened to tobi-zetsu

Didn't Sasuke kill black Zetsu a while ago, before encountering Itachi?

And Tobi Zetsu...good question.

Edited by zacrathedemon5, 22 October 2012 - 01:26 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

On the one hand this can be seen as an expression of one of the worst qualities a person can have, since constantly changing one's opinions or standpoints can be see as having a weak conviction. It can also mean that you are naive and therefore easily misled or deceived. At worst, it can mean that you only have a certain standpoint because it is currently benefial to you and that it's only really about personal gain.

On the other hand, this can also be seen as an expression of having the maturity to realize when your positions are wrong and thus change them accordingly, which is a very admirable trait. I mean what would you rather do? Stick with an opinon that you yourself think is wrong or change it to something you can actually voich for? I know what I would do and at the end of the day, I would much rather be able to look myself in the mirror than sticking with an opinion "Just because..."

Mind if I quote a movie? Don't worry it is very relevant and it is similar to what you have said here.

Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the kitten that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.
Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?
Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can’t generate. Life becomes stagnant.

I actually believe (ironic) that this should apply in all daily lives and yes, people who have conviction in their lives show strength, but I believe it takes more strength to admit that you are wrong or maybe wrong about the idea you have. I think this is especially true if proven wrong. I am wrong from time to time. I did wrong things, but I change from them. I rather live a life in the latter so I am always changing and becoming smarter. Becoming better.

I am not saying people shouldn't have a religion, because I still have faith in things, but I don't people should be as critical about it.

The way I see it, Naruto's development is pretty much over. He's already accomplished most of his goals and he's pretty much come to terms with who and what he is and why he became that way. The only thing that's left for him now is to surpass Jiraiya and bring peace to the world, or at the very least make it more stable and without all the conflict and strife that creates people like Obtio and Sasuke. He also needs to save Sasuke someway or antoher, become Hokage and hopefully get the girl. As for Sakura, I just hope that she will be able to somehow surpass Tsunade, whether it be in strength or love ot both.

This is what I think too. All Naruto has left is to face is the villains and stop them and eventually face Sasuke. I kind of felt the waterfall scene is when Naruto conquered his own hate and fear and him being friends with Kurama is when he finally achieved complete balance.

I just have to wonder if Naruto has accepted reality for what it is and not what he wants it to be. You know what I mean? Obito wants to change reality to suit his needs, but wouldn't that mean that Naruto needs to let things happen as they happen. You can try to change it, but if they are meant to be they are meant to be. Not saying everything will end in failure, but that if you can't change it no matter how much you try, you shouldn't worry about it.

Here's some food for thought, where is black zetsu, and what happened to tobi-zetsu

Wasn't Black Zetsu cut in half by Chojuro's Hiramekarei? (Why does this remind me of Kenshin?) I can't remember exactly. I know the white Zetsu Sasuke destroyed. As for Tobi-Zetsu, I am inclined to believe he merged with Obito and this is why we have this split personality with him.. "Tobi is a good boy."

[tricksie]

It's funny how you tell him to not insult people and yet you are doing the opposite. If people agree with him, it's not because they are "dogpiling" on the post, but because they find their point agreeable and because they share a similar (yet, not identical) opinion. Don't you think people will be offended by that?

That aside, I also agree with James on some of the points he say. Let's face it: when we don't get what we want, we have a bit of a habit to express disappointment in it, and maybe even complain about it (heck, we do that as kids so many times). But if we're to stand on a point, then don't be ashamed to defend it. And if you're wrong, then you just say it. If you still believe in your point, then like James himself said to me once: "Agree to disagree".

But James did not "Agree to disagree" in his above posts. He said dissenting posters were whining and hypocritical. There is a line between debating a topic and bashing the poster. James crossed it.

Dogpiling means to jump on an issue along with a larger group. It's not an insult. Some of the posts that followed were in the same vein, working like a snowball effect.

We had problems with this earlier in the summer, and I'm not even going to pretend to have patience with it now. I'm sure that there will be more controversial chapters to come, and no fair debate can exist when one side is threading insults in with the points.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Severe case of deja vu, here.

Edited by zacrathedemon5, 22 October 2012 - 01:54 PM.