162 replies to this topic

[KnS]

It's interesting to see that Rowling's viewpoint has changed 20 years after she was in the drafting stages of the novel. I can see how it would, being pragmatic about it. But she doesn't say she'd go back and rewrite the whole book to pair HH in the book, just the Ron and Hermione wouldn't be well-suited to each other in a long-term marriage, as life partners. That's how I read it. That they'd eventually need marriage counseling. And yeah, I'd agree with that. :)

 

Yes, I know.  I got that from it as well.

 

Ron and Hermione's relationship had difficulties, it's true.  But it had a sort of passion, a spark from conflict that gave it life.  Harry and Hermione were dull together, in my opinion.  No spark at all, more of a "two old shoes" feeling.  Most relationships could use counseling after 20 years or so, and that would probably be true of R/Hr and H/Hr both, albeit for different reasons.

 

I admit that a lot of my reaction to this news is basically fandom PTSD.  The shipping wars in the Potter fandom were ugly -- very ugly -- and this just brings it all back for people who were caught up in the mess as both a fan and as a site referee.  

 

And I feel badly for Ron.  As I've said before, Ron was the Sakura of the Potter fandom.  He was continually bashed, thrashed, trashed, and outright hated because he stood in the way of the pairing that -- on the page, at least -- was not going to happen.  His human frailties were met with sneers and insults, and there was no tolerance for his confusion, insecurities, emotional outbursts, and occasionally inappropriate actions toward the object of his confused affection.

 

So here comes JKR, years later, with the implication that Ron would be the failure in the relationship -- that he would have been unable to make Hermione happy long-term.  *sigh*  Was it really necessary?

 

One of the things I loved most about Harry and Hermione's relationship was the notion that a boy and a girl could be very close friends -- and just friends.  That not every male/female interaction has to resolve in sexual terms.  

 

It's brave on JKR's part to speak about it, instead of choosing to just let it go and not make waves with her fandom. It shows that writers/artists/creatives never really finish working on projects they love. They are still reimagining, snipping loose strings, mentally rewriting or repainting their creations years later. 

 

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I can agree completely.  Yes, the creator -- whether it be art, music, or literature -- has final authority over their work.  But it begs the question of what is expected when they share that creative work with an audience?

 

Does a writer create a story purely for themselves?  If so, why share it?  Conventional wisdom suggests that literature is created and shared for the purpose of engaging readers; it's to share a story and hope it not only interests readers, but that they make at least some kind of emotional investment in what happens to the characters.

 

So when that happens -- when a reader invests and essentially submits to being told a specific story -- does the reader not then own their personal experience with the material?  Or does that belong to the author as well?  Does the author have the unquestionable right to later alter the perception of their story in whatever way they wish, and perhaps alter a reader's attachment to the work at the same time?

 

It's the temptation of creators to continually revisit, rehash, rewrite, and tinker with their work that leads to the disillusionment of the very people who made the author and their work successful.  Fans don't like it when the original material is altered because the creator can't leave it alone.  Hence The People vs. George Lucas.

 

It would be one thing if fans didn't pay for their experience.  Once they have, it's theirs.  I think there has to come a point in time when a creator realizes that they've given their creation over to the imaginations of their audience, and it is no longer theirs alone to change.

 

But, eh, the books/HP story was never about romance, but about friendships and Harry's overcoming his past to succeed in his goals. The romance was a de facto part of all that, but not the driving engine. And this is a book read by the 10-14yo bracket to begin with. If it had more realistic romance, the whole tone would change and it's starting point would hit more of a YA audience.

 

The same is true for Naruto.  It's not really supposed to be about the relationships either, and the target demographic is about the same.  But we're living proof that fans are sometimes way outside that age range, and we're having a conversation on a web site that is dedicated to a specific pairing.

 

The potential romances in a story do matter to readers.  They matter A LOT.  The existence of this site is proof of it.  I don't personally feel there is anything at all to be gained by an author/creator publicly picking and tearing at past works.  JKR's personal retrospective and regrets don't need to be forced onto the hundreds of millions of readers whose experience was formed on what she asked them to accept in the first place.

Edited by KnS, 02 February 2014 - 10:39 PM.

[sushi.]

I don't think like Kishi would regret his pairing of choice, because to me it seems like he personally loves it. I don't know why Rowling wrote her pairings the way she did, but I don't feel like it is very personal to her. Just from reading the manga, I have a feeling Kishi ships NaruSaku..

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well it's not like Kishi ever mocked the fandom of pairing. Rowling has and toys with them until she apparently submitted. The point is Kishi seems set while Rowling seems like one of those people who didn't really have it set, so times could change every novel release. That's how it's turning to be. Not everyone is the same. Plus, it does seem romance in HP seems unadvertised or rather misuse. I remember seeing Harry and Hermione hug scene in every commercials, so I'm like "Huh?" But whatever, never cared for romance in here anyway. Seriously, what's so hard to do a good one.

[Kamina-Yoshi]

I find the argument "they're opposites, therefore they attract" to be utter rubbish. You would have to be a Freudian fetishist to be attracted to someone who does literally everything you hate-- it's not romantic attraction displayed in the relationship of Hermione and Ron, it's terrible writing and a future in divorce court. In short, the idea of opposites attract applies basically only to magnets, and the minority of the population that are actually attracted to someone who is actually opposite of them, other than a girl and a bloke who for most of their lives hate each other until (convelutely) they suddenly fall in love. That's just hormones and bad writing, not a romance of the ages; it's a bad example to teach people, especially those who have been in cruel relationships with domineering others.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Next we need is the digimon creators to admit their mistakes. XD

I'm sorry...

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I find the argument "they're opposites, therefore they attract" to be utter rubbish. You would have to be a Freudian fetishist to be attracted to someone who does literally everything you hate-- it's not romantic attraction displayed in the relationship of Hermione and Ron, it's terrible writing and a future in divorce court. In short, the idea of opposites attract applies basically only to magnets, and the minority of the population that are actually attracted to someone who is actually opposite of them, other than a girl and a bloke who for most of their lives hate each other until (convelutely) they suddenly fall in love. That's just hormones and bad writing, not a romance of the ages; it's a bad example to teach people, especially those who have been in cruel relationships with domineering others.

I do not ship any pairings in harry potter and didnt watched the last movie because i dropped on the previous movie for the reason it was bad.
But the real problem with Ron and Hermione is that they didnt had chemistry and wasnt well developed, it was like meh, or better like she said about "her personal preference to realize a wishfull thinking".
She just didnt put much effort on pairings on the series.
At least hermione was appealing on the begining.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 02 February 2014 - 11:31 PM.

[KnS]

I find the argument "they're opposites, therefore they attract" to be utter rubbish. 

 

I agree.  True opposites -- in terms of temperament and especially values -- are on a collision course for a life of fighting, unfulfillment, or both.

 

But Ron and Hermione were not opposites.  They were different.  Different is not opposite.  Their temperaments were actually similar; they were both ruled by a deep insecurity that they were inadequate, and covered for it in different ways that irritated the people around them.  Their similar values and natural abilities placed them both in Gryffindor.  They were both extremely brave and loyal, and they were committed, individually and together, to helping Harry in whatever way he needed.

 

Ron was terribly immature while Hermione was quite mature for their age.  As far as teen love goes, a guy's immaturity has never been a barrier to a girl falling in love with him; thankfully, or the human race would have died out generations ago.    But a girl should move on if the guy doesn't grow up.  Fortunately Ron had grown up a lot by the final book, and Hermione had mellowed out.

 

What I think is interesting is how the arguments made against R/Hr are similar to some of the arguments made against NS.  The complaints about Ron's personality and behavior are almost interchangeable with what NH fans say about Sakura.  And regardless of the fact that Naruto and Hinata have zero romantic chemistry, and the story isn't being written in a way to support that relationship, she's better for Naruto than Sakura because she's not "abusive."

 

Like so many things, the chemistry between characters or the viability of a relationship is in the eye of the beholder.  

[TouKen4Life3g]

Yeah but you made it sound like Harry is Sasuke which is far from truth. As much I like to make fun of this (sorry fans), I'm staying out of this one. I must admit, when I heard this news, it was shocking not to me, but the way it was addressed is. I don't know but it's a bit funny to go compare to Naruto ASAP. Again, I'm staying out of this one.

[KnS]

Yeah but you made it sound like Harry is Sasuke which is far from truth. 

 

I most certainly did not.  I was strictly comparing the perception of Ron and Sakura, and that their "abusive" behavior means they are not acceptable partners.  

 

I don't know but it's a bit funny to go compare to Naruto ASAP. 

 

I don't know why it's "funny" to you.  Many people on this site have expended a lot of angst on whether or not Kishimoto might be trolling everyone with the pairings.  Whether they admit it out loud or not, every time Hinata appears in the manga some people worry that at any moment the set up of NS will be knocked down like a house of cards, and suddenly it will be NH and SS at the finish line.  

 

The uncertainty upsets people, and that cannot be denied.  The site is chock full of threads where people have winged and screamed and threatened to quit reading if it turns out they are or have been trolled.  Rowling's announcement proves that no matter how "safe" a pairing seems to be -- I mean, who would think that seven years later an author would sabotage their own pairings by saying they were probably a mistake -- they are not necessarily safe.

 

I would still like to think that Kishimoto will not do such a thing, but yesterday I would have bet $1000 Rowling would never ever have said this, either.  After all, she wrote Harry to say, "She's like my sister," he went on. "I love her like a sister and I reckon she feels the same way about me. It's always been like that. I thought you knew."

 

Yeah. We thought we knew.  But now we don't anymore.

 

There is a direct correlation between a fear and the realization that the fear could be realized, depending on the circumstances.

Edited by KnS, 03 February 2014 - 12:18 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well Rowling is a different person from anyone first and foremost, so you can't really try to think Kishi, let alone its different target. She's a different person with a different intention with a different plan with a different outlook. Kishi said he is dead set, so why think otherwise.

Please correct me but you sound like you're in "I don't know what to believe anymore" stage. Don't let it spread. It's just her ways. After all, she always bring those controversial news on her books like the master being homosexual and such. Hers is more worldwide while Kishi is just in Japan and no, even though we get manga, we hardly included. But if I'm wrong, please tell me. I don't want to be in the right direction. Plus I am focusing on Super Bowl, so it's possible that I got the wrong idea. Possible.

[KnS]

Please correct me but you sound like you're in "I don't know what to believe anymore" stage. Don't let it spread. It's just her ways. After all, she always bring those controversial news on her books like the master being homosexual and such. Hers is more worldwide while Kishi is just in Japan and no, even though we get manga, we hardly included. But if I'm wrong, please tell me. I don't want to be in the right direction. Plus I am focusing on Super Bowl, so it's possible that I got the wrong idea. Possible.

 

Don't worry, mate.  Like I said to tricksie, I'm just having a bout of Potter PTSD.  You're right, of course.  Rowling has done this kind of stuff before, and I shouldn't be surprised or bothered.  It doesn't change anything she wrote, and doesn't change anything for Kishimoto.  It's just... yeah, PTSD.  

 

I still believe in NS completely, and I have not seen anything to change my mind.  The same chances exist for Kishimoto to do something stupid as existed before this news, and if he does it will reflect on him -- just as this reflects on Rowling.

 

I don't know if we should expect a lot for #663, but I think we'll get something.  As I've said, Kishimoto can't drag everything out forever.  If the story is coming to a close, at some point he has to stop playing games and reveal things once and for all.  I look forward to seeing Naruto win his girl.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Don't worry, mate.  Like I said to tricksie, I'm just having a bout of Potter PTSD.  You're right, of course.  Rowling has done this kind of stuff before, and I shouldn't be surprised or bothered.  It doesn't change anything she wrote, and doesn't change anything for Kishimoto.  It's just... yeah, PTSD.  
 
I still believe in NS completely, and I have not seen anything to change my mind.  The same chances exist for Kishimoto to do something stupid as existed before this news, and if he does it will reflect on him -- just as this reflects on Rowling.
 
I don't know if we should expect a lot for #663, but I think we'll get something.  As I've said, Kishimoto can't drag everything out forever.  If the story is coming to a close, at some point he has to stop playing games and reveal things once and for all.  I look forward to seeing Naruto win his girl.

Kishi is at the peak of making NS invisible pairing. Now, it's becoming clear, so he is going to expose it. He can dodge it in the next chapter but if it leaves Naruto and Sakura only, then it's clear as day.

Sorry if I sound like I backlash at you. I understand what you mean. I will say this. The Super Bowl is to be blamed. Seriously... It's terrible. Lol. If it makes me feel better, I would like to think Seattle is NS destroying NH/SS.

[tricksie]

Again, maybe it's just me, but I didn't read JKR saying she wanted to rewrite the book. Nor did she give an iota of thought to Harry's or Ron's feelings about the matter. She just framed the future of a relationship in a real world perspective for someone like Hermione.
 
In fact, to me, everything she said had more to do with understanding Hermione's character and how she would have grown and changed in the future in rl, not about their history in the book. Her statements are completely Hermione-centric. So for that reason, these statements say more to me about the writer and adding on to an individual character, and not about revamping the plot.
 
And I wonder why she has been pondering this so much lately? Is she writing or toying with writing another HP book set in the future, and finding that her thoughts about the characters have changed as she has aged? It's not surprising to me that her opinion has changed, (it is bound to) — it's surprising to me that she has thought enough about it to include it in an interview. 
 
She put these characters to bed a long time ago. Why is she rethinking it now? And why just in terms of Hermione's future? 
 
 

Yes, I know.  I got that from it as well.
 
Ron and Hermione's relationship had difficulties, it's true.  But it had a sort of passion, a spark from conflict that gave it life.  Harry and Hermione were dull together, in my opinion.  No spark at all, more of a "two old shoes" feeling.  Most relationships could use counseling after 20 years or so, and that would probably be true of R/Hr and H/Hr both, albeit for different reasons.

 

I wouldn't hand-wave marriage counseling as a neccesity, though. What JKR says has validity. The unromantic truth is that some couple make better life partners than others, cause the real work of a marriage comes after the lovey dovey years. Perhaps it's a truth JKR sees now that she didn't see then, 20 years after she first drafted these characters.
 
 

I admit that a lot of my reaction to this news is basically fandom PTSD.  The shipping wars in the Potter fandom were ugly -- very ugly -- and this just brings it all back for people who were caught up in the mess as both a fan and as a site referee.  
 
And I feel badly for Ron.  As I've said before, Ron was the Sakura of the Potter fandom.  He was continually bashed, thrashed, trashed, and outright hated because he stood in the way of the pairing that -- on the page, at least -- was not going to happen.  His human frailties were met with sneers and insults, and there was no tolerance for his confusion, insecurities, emotional outbursts, and occasionally inappropriate actions toward the object of his confused affection.
 
So here comes JKR, years later, with the implication that Ron would be the failure in the relationship -- that he would have been unable to make Hermione happy long-term.  *sigh*  Was it really necessary?

 

Yeah, I don't know what she's bringing it up. Honestly, it doesn't make sense. I would imagine most authors see their characters in a different light several years on. And yeah, I can understand how traumatic it would be for the fandom.
 
The only consolation I see is that she never once mentioned rewriting the book/retconning HP history. She didn't let Ron or Harry have a voice in this. It was only about Hermione and her future life. 
 
Her comments don't change my opinion one bit about the book. I thought it should go HR and it ended satisfactorily for me.
 
Like I said, i can't fathom why she felt the need to share, but although I think JKR's thoughts might have changed, I don't think she is suggesting retconning the book. Just that she sees things differently now. 

 
 

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I can agree completely.  Yes, the creator -- whether it be art, music, or literature -- has final authority over their work.  But it begs the question of what is expected when they share that creative work with an audience?
 
Does a writer create a story purely for themselves?  If so, why share it?  Conventional wisdom suggests that literature is created and shared for the purpose of engaging readers; it's to share a story and hope it not only interests readers, but that they make at least some kind of emotional investment in what happens to the characters.
 
So when that happens -- when a reader invests and essentially submits to being told a specific story -- does the reader not then own their personal experience with the material?  Or does that belong to the author as well?  Does the author have the unquestionable right to later alter the perception of their story in whatever way they wish, and perhaps alter a reader's attachment to the work at the same time?
 
It's the temptation of creators to continually revisit, rehash, rewrite, and tinker with their work that leads to the disillusionment of the very people who made the author and their work successful.  Fans don't like it when the original material is altered because the creator can't leave it alone.  Hence The People vs. George Lucas.
 
It would be one thing if fans didn't pay for their experience.  Once they have, it's theirs.  I think there has to come a point in time when a creator realizes that they've given their creation over to the imaginations of their audience, and it is no longer theirs alone to change.

 

But comparing it to Star Wars is not exactly fair. Star Wars was retconned. HP has not been, nor is there any sign that it will be. To me, JKR is just expressing her opinion over the future of a single character. Not rewriting the book or asking readers to realign their thinking. 

 

As for the ethics of a creator and their creation, there's no easy answer. I spent a whole semester in college in a class on this subject. There is no single right answer. It is a creative child, birthed into the world by one, but shared on its long journey by many. It's like there is joint custody. But unfortunately for fans, the creator is under no obligation to think/feel/create according to anyone else's ideas but their own. 

 

The flip side is audiences are free to interpret art how ever they see fit. Buying the book doesn't make you the owner of JKR's opinions, just the owner of that story, the way it stands in that book.

 

I know all this is obvious, but the reason I'm saying it is because, from what I read, JKR isn't changing the book, thinking about changing the book, or asking anyone to read it differently. She's just expressing her opinion. And as a fan, you have a perfectly valid right is to tune her out.

 

No different than liking a rocker's music but not supporting their lifestyle. Singers get sick of their songs all the time. And you know what? No one cares! Fans still love that one song, even though the singer hates it! It sort of the same thing here. So JKR has come out and said her opinions have changed in the 20 years since she started HP. So what. It cannot touch your interpretation of the book or its significance in your life. 

 

It would be a different story if she was spouting out different theoretical plots and advising fans to change their minds. In a word, if she were doing to Star Wars what Lucas et. al. did. But from what I've read, she's not. She focused on Hermione only (not Harry or Ron's feelings) and focused on the future, in a real life setting. To me, it's just opinion that holds no bearing on the original story.

 

I'm not trying to be glib or dimiss anything you might feel or persuade you to think anything else. I know you've been heavily involved in the fandom for years, so it's got to feel like nothing less than a betrayal right now.

 

I'm just trying to sort out my interpretation to it. Initially, I was like "Well, that sucks." But after I reread it, I decided it really had nothing to do with the book or really anyone else but her and her view of a real-life Hermione. And then it became a "Well, whatever." And I decided I'd just go back to what I thought about the book yesterday, the day before and the day before that, and not worry about JKR and her opinions.

[DattebayoXShannaro]

 

 

Yes, I know.  I got that from it as well.

 

Ron and Hermione's relationship had difficulties, it's true.  But it had a sort of passion, a spark from conflict that gave it life.  Harry and Hermione were dull together, in my opinion.  No spark at all, more of a "two old shoes" feeling.  Most relationships could use counseling after 20 years or so, and that would probably be true of R/Hr and H/Hr both, albeit for different reasons.

 

I admit that a lot of my reaction to this news is basically fandom PTSD.  The shipping wars in the Potter fandom were ugly -- very ugly -- and this just brings it all back for people who were caught up in the mess as both a fan and as a site referee.  

 

And I feel badly for Ron.  As I've said before, Ron was the Sakura of the Potter fandom.  He was continually bashed, thrashed, trashed, and outright hated because he stood in the way of the pairing that -- on the page, at least -- was not going to happen.  His human frailties were met with sneers and insults, and there was no tolerance for his confusion, insecurities, emotional outbursts, and occasionally inappropriate actions toward the object of his confused affection.

 

So here comes JKR, years later, with the implication that Ron would be the failure in the relationship -- that he would have been unable to make Hermione happy long-term.  *sigh*  Was it really necessary?

 

One of the things I loved most about Harry and Hermione's relationship was the notion that a boy and a girl could be very close friends -- and just friends.  That not every male/female interaction has to resolve in sexual terms.  

 

 

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I can agree completely.  Yes, the creator -- whether it be art, music, or literature -- has final authority over their work.  But it begs the question of what is expected when they share that creative work with an audience?

 

Does a writer create a story purely for themselves?  If so, why share it?  Conventional wisdom suggests that literature is created and shared for the purpose of engaging readers; it's to share a story and hope it not only interests readers, but that they make at least some kind of emotional investment in what happens to the characters.

 

So when that happens -- when a reader invests and essentially submits to being told a specific story -- does the reader not then own their personal experience with the material?  Or does that belong to the author as well?  Does the author have the unquestionable right to later alter the perception of their story in whatever way they wish, and perhaps alter a reader's attachment to the work at the same time?

 

It's the temptation of creators to continually revisit, rehash, rewrite, and tinker with their work that leads to the disillusionment of the very people who made the author and their work successful.  Fans don't like it when the original material is altered because the creator can't leave it alone.  Hence The People vs. George Lucas.

 

It would be one thing if fans didn't pay for their experience.  Once they have, it's theirs.  I think there has to come a point in time when a creator realizes that they've given their creation over to the imaginations of their audience, and it is no longer theirs alone to change.

 

 

The same is true for Naruto.  It's not really supposed to be about the relationships either, and the target demographic is about the same.  But we're living proof that fans are sometimes way outside that age range, and we're having a conversation on a web site that is dedicated to a specific pairing.

 

The potential romances in a story do matter to readers.  They matter A LOT.  The existence of this site is proof of it.  I don't personally feel there is anything at all to be gained by an author/creator publicly picking and tearing at past works.  JKR's personal retrospective and regrets don't need to be forced onto the hundreds of millions of readers whose experience was formed on what she asked them to accept in the first place.

 

 

Bolded:  It was Hermoine's actor Emma Watson that said that while being in agreement with JK Rollings.

 

Anyway, I'm one of those people who thought Harry and Hermoine would end up together in the beginning, but accepted the pairs that came out in the end.  The reasons she's saying were personal, but whatever those were, we don't know.  It doesn't change the fact that I accepted it in the end, and everyone else had to accept it.  It doesn't change the fact that she wrote the story she wanted to, but now, after being away from it for so long, she can now look at her story in a more objective manner.  It happens to all writers.  Why she felt the need to publicly say it to the world, I couldn't begin to guess, but it's not because of the fans.  This story has been finished for years now.  If she wanted to appease the fans that were upset, she would have done it a long time ago.

Edited by DattebayoXShannaro, 03 February 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[KnS]

And yeah, I can understand how traumatic it would be for the fandom.

 

I've heard from a bunch of the old mods, and even some of the editors from the fic library.  Everyone is in a daze, as if we're experiencing some kind of shared nightmare.  They're going from this:    to this:  to this:    to this:   When I say it's like PTSD, I'm not kidding.  I know you know what I'm talking about.

 

I know JKR isn't talking retcon.  Nevertheless, she's doing a sort of improvisational retcon riff.  When you've slogged through the shipping wars, defended her... defended her paired characters... kept thousands of users from tearing each other apart... *sigh*  I just wish she'd STOP TALKING and let it go.

 

I'm not trying to be glib or dimiss anything you might feel or persuade you to think anything else. I know you've been heavily involved in the fandom for years, so it's got to feel like nothing less than a betrayal right now.

 

Oh, I know.  And it's just a haunting by an old fandom.  Life moves on.

 

It's just icing on the whole "with more than half of the series written I decided to kill Lupin instead of Arthur Weasley" betrayal cake, and it makes me tempted to ask for my money back.  

 

I like your comparison to hit songs that fans still love but the singer hates it.  That's a good way to think about it.  I'll share it with my old peeps and see if it helps at all.  

 

Seriously, thanks for the time you put into the reply. I appreciate the effort to talk me off the ledge, lol.  After seven years the bitter dust had finally settled, and I just didn't see this coming.

[Jenskott]

Hi again. I did not plan post again after my last intervention, but there was something I did not want leaving unaddressed...

 

And then I came and I found out about the news...

 

Well, they are... interesting...

 

You know, in one of those links I read a comment bugged me. A person said he/she was glad of Rowling did not go for HH because the hero and the female lead falling in was overused... Alright, but the Belligerent Sexual Tension trope -that Ron and Hermione fall squarely into- is also very overused. So is "main heroine falling for main character's best friend". So you should not like RH either...

 

I have a trouble with someone saying "I am glad of the author did not use Trope A because it is very overused", since if the creator did not use Trope A, he/she used Trope B, which is just so overused. There is literally no trope has not been overused.

 

Anyway, regarding the Ron-hate being equal to Sakura-hate and if Ron's treatment sounds familiar to me...

 

It indeed does, but not for the reasons you think. It sounds familiar because I have been in many fandoms. And in every fandom, people loves using a character like their personal chew toy/scapegoat/embodiment-of-all-what-is-wrong-with-the-series. Lucky me, often I have no trouble with the most hated character of the fandom or I actually like that character.

 

It is true some fans hate a character because they think he/she gets in the way of their favorite pairing or whatever -or becasue they are unthinkingly jumping in the hatred bandwagon-. However it is also irritating when someone just assumes your reasons for hating/disliking a character (not telling that is what you have done here). You will see, once I saw someone declaring people hated Shinji Ikari because he was not your typical hot-blooded mecha pilot. I found that patronizing, condescending and frankly insulting because: before Shinji Ikari was created, there were many mecha anime main characters were weak-willed and whiny; I liked several of them; and I was indifferent to Shinji until he did what he did in the hospital scene at the beginning of End of Evangelion. THEN I started disliking him (but I did not hate him. I cross the line on hating fictional characters). But no, let's assume instead.

 

I mean, I know many fangirls hated Haruko (Slam Dunk) or Relena (Gundam Wing) because they thought those characters were preventing their yaoi fanfics from becoming canon... but it is unfair assume that was the only reason of all haters.

 

Regarding Ron Weasley. Even though I am a HxH supporter, I do not hate him. I did not really care for him, though. Anyway I can honestly tell I would not read a HxH fic with Ron bashing. I have never read a Harry Potter fic, but I am not touching one portrays Ron as an evil bastard... or Draco as an affable, nice and friendly chap... or Dumbledore as someone eviler, meaner and crueler than Voldemort himself...

 

Regarding comparisons... I have met people in this site comparing RonxHermione with BOTH NS and SS, depending on whether they liked the couple or not. Personally I think neither of the pairings are similar.

 

I would not use the "Well, NHers hate Sakura because they tell she abused Naruto" defense, though. Sakura abusing Naruto has always been played like something comedic. Ron picking on Hermione was not played like that at all, and actually he made Hermione crying once. Yes, it only happened ONCE -as far as I know-, and it was at the beginning of the Book I. The point is, context matters.

 

"Then do you think that RH is more similar to SS than NS, after all?"

 

Hmm... Yes, I think it is MORE similar to SS than NS... but that is not telling a lot because I still think RH was not like SS. Ron never abused Hermione so much like Sasuke did to Sakura. And unlike Sakura, Hermione usually fought back.

 

So no, I do not find them comparable.

 

Actually, if I am to compare a HP couple with a Naruto couple... honestly I would compare HG with NH. That was what I thought after reading the fourth book. And I am sorry, but your comments about HG and how they got together confirmed my fears instead of lessening them.

 

Another poster mentioned he thought the train scene in the first book was a blatant hint of who would end up with who. Honestly I saw nothing of the sort, in spite of I KNEW they were going to end up together. When I read that scene, I thought "Oh, so that is Ron and his family. And that is Ginny? Harry ended up with her, right?" but I saw nothing made me thinking Rowling was already setting them up. It is obvious who is right about that scene, thought, and it is not me (although I guess it is also possible Rowling was not using that scene like an initial setup. Not all scenes featuring Naruto and Sakura are a pairing setup, either. But that is meaningless speculation).

 

Honestly, trying to find paralelisms between pairings of different series is a thorny issue, even if you are comparing canon pairings.

 

 

 

Seriously, thanks for the time you put into the reply. I appreciate the effort to talk me off the ledge, lol.  After seven years the bitter dust had finally settled, and I just didn't see this coming.

 

Maybe Rowling IS trolling, after all? Stirring the dust so people keeps talking about Harry Potter?

 

However it is perfectly possible she changed her mind after so many years. It happens. However she has not told she is retconning the books.

 

Anyways, I am sorry you are so upset about this. My advice would be... trying not to get worried or sad about it. It is not worth, believe me.

 

One of the perils of get hooked to someone else's fictional world: the creator always has the last word on his/her work. And he/she may do something you do not like or do not agree with.

[lupina]

Wow, that woman has curage.

This statement matches perfectly with an earlier statement from her, that she feels she is loosing control of whats happening.

A lot of people whom she worked with admitted that they felt sort of a "big pull" between them. And now she says she just brought  them together in the end because she planned that long time ago, after defending her plot and her couples over and over again.

Thats just ... Wow. Really. 

[Codus N]

 

Don't worry, mate.  Like I said to tricksie, I'm just having a bout of Potter PTSD.  You're right, of course.  Rowling has done this kind of stuff before, and I shouldn't be surprised or bothered.  It doesn't change anything she wrote, and doesn't change anything for Kishimoto.  It's just... yeah, PTSD.  

 

I still believe in NS completely, and I have not seen anything to change my mind.  The same chances exist for Kishimoto to do something stupid as existed before this news, and if he does it will reflect on him -- just as this reflects on Rowling.

 

I don't know if we should expect a lot for #663, but I think we'll get something.  As I've said, Kishimoto can't drag everything out forever.  If the story is coming to a close, at some point he has to stop playing games and reveal things once and for all.  I look forward to seeing Naruto win his girl.

 

Welp, if your PTSD is this bad, I don't wanna know what will happen to you if (this is a big IF) Kishimoto ends up trolling everyone with 663. I suggest booking into an asylum specializing in SPTSD-suffering fans right now. I've got one nearby my pad. Want me to give them a call?

 

P.S.: the extra "S" stands for shipping. They've handled GruVia and Jerza fans who were on the verge of throwing themselves off a ledge. Why, just last week they had over 200 Jerza fans seeking refuge and all were cleared. 

Edited by Codus N, 03 February 2014 - 03:53 PM.

[KnS]

I have a trouble with someone saying "I am glad of the author did not use Trope A because it is very overused", since if the creator did not use Trope A, he/she used Trope B, which is just so overused. There is literally no trope has not been overused.

 

You're right.  There's nothing new under the sun.  It's difficult to write anything that's fresh anymore, and no one trope is really any more overused than another.

 

Another poster mentioned he thought the train scene in the first book was a blatant hint of who would end up with who. 

 

I'm pretty sure that was me.  

 

Honestly I saw nothing of the sort, in spite of I KNEW they were going to end up together. When I read that scene, I thought "Oh, so that is Ron and his family. And that is Ginny? Harry ended up with her, right?" but I saw nothing made me thinking Rowling was already setting them up. It is obvious who is right about that scene, thought, and it is not me (although I guess it is also possible Rowling was not using that scene like an initial setup. Not all scenes featuring Naruto and Sakura are a pairing setup, either. But that is meaningless speculation).

 

 

Some consider it a fault of hers, but JK Rowling was very subtle with pairing hints.  So subtle that unless you understood the way she introduced ideas or relationships, you could easily miss it.  The readers who got the hang of Rowling's methods could see all the pairings being formed almost as soon as the characters were put together the first time, including Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, and even more obscure ones like Lupin/Tonks and Bill/Fleur.

 

That's not to say that readers who missed the clues are stupid or unobservant. Each person interprets what they read through their own personal lens -- a lens that is formed by their own taste, personality, temperament, life experience, and expectations.  Sometimes our personal lens filters out clues and details others can see.  Sometimes our lens prevents us from enjoying what we're reading.  It's as simple as that.

 

The point is, for some people Rowling's intentions were crystal clear right out of the gate.  The best example of this is probably the romance between Lupin and Tonks.  For people who got the hang of how Rowling introduced a relationship, in the first scene in which Tonks was introduced and interacted with Lupin, it was clear she was going to pair them.

 

A lot of people didn't see it.  In fact most didn't.  Many readers couldn't see it because their "lens" had been skewed by Alfonso Cuarón (the director of the third Potter movie) who erroneously asserted that Lupin was gay.  That idea was further compounded by Rowling having stated that she used Lupin's lycanthropy as a metaphor for the type of illness that society shuns -- like AIDS.  So it's easy to understand how, with those ideas coloring some people's expectations, that they couldn't see Rowling's intention to pair Lupin in a straight relationship.

 

Lupin also serves as a good example of how Rowling has changed her mind before, and gone back on what she's written.  The backstory she created for Remus Lupin was not quite as detailed as Sirius Black, but close.  Remus was the conscience of the Marauders, and the quiet voice of decency.  He was the poster person for slowly rebounding from adversity, and hope that the wizarding world was shifting toward a deeper moral center.

 

But in the last book, Deathly Hallows, Lupin's behavior and personality changed quite abruptly.  The man who was once one of the most morally disciplined characters in the series has a self-centered breakdown and abandons his pregnant wife, and his course is only later reversed after a lecture from Harry.

 

That was NOT the Lupin readers knew, and it was hard to read.  He and Tonks eventually joined the battle at Hogwarts, and neither was seen again until they were both dead -- their bodies lined up with the others (including Fred, OMG) -- and that was it.  Considering all the time and care Rowling had put into Lupin, his story, and the message behind his life struggles, he was unceremoniously killed and then ignored.  Many fans were left shocked and appalled, not only because it was written in such a callous manner but because it was incongruous to the build up.

 

Come to find out, there was a reason it didn't feel right.  After the last book was released, Rowling explained in an interview that she had wanted "a father to die" and she had always intended for it to be Arthur Weasley.  However, when it came time to write it (during the fifth book), she couldn't bring herself to do it.  So she contrived a way to make Lupin a father, and then killed him instead.

 

Point being, JK Rowling has changed her mind about her characters and their futures several times.  Her latest statement that perhaps Hermione should have married Harry shouldn't be a surprise considering Rowling's track record, and it wouldn't really be a big deal if not for the years of vicious and exhausting pairing wars over Hermione's love for Ron.

 

I can understand Rowling's continued reflection on her work, but I think she underestimates the effect her comments can have on fans of the story.  In my opinion it would be better if she kept them to herself.

 

Ugh.  Sorry for the tl;dr reply.  I haven't thought or written about Potter stuff this much in a long time. 

 

 

Welp, if your PTSD is this bad, I don't wanna know what will happen to you if (this is a big IF) Kishimoto ends up trolling everyone with 663. I suggest booking into an asylum specializing in SPTSD-suffering fans right now. I've got one nearby my pad. Want me to give them a call?

 

Thanks, but it's not necessary.     I'm not invested in Naruto the way I was in Potter.  I spent a decade of time, money, and site management in Potter, and it was a much bigger, more intense fandom.  With Naruto I'm just a casual observer.

Edited by KnS, 03 February 2014 - 07:48 PM.

[rikakim94]

Next we need is the digimon creators to admit their mistakes. XD

I'm sorry...

 

About digimon a off bit off topic, but the creators and the writers of the  first season said they always had the intention of putting sora and matt together in the very beginning.This news disappointed me.  I feel like "showing" rather than telling or using friendship and love symbolism how there relationship began might have worked for me. I mean there already dating by the second season how? The first digimon movie had sora being hurt that tai did not complement her hat or something not to mention she and matt had little to interaction in the film. Also in the main series they never really had a thing for each other. Well just because a ship i disliked happened dosen't mean i won't stop shipping tai and sora i moved on and had other pairing full in for tai and sora.