138 replies to this topic

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Nah, Shriner-senpai (Nate River) is a lawyer if I recall correctly.

[James S Cassidy]

Here is the thing Tricksie. You are looking for the good guy that isn't there in the situation. At least not the good guy you are expecting to find.

You say "Why would Itachi kill every single man, women, and child?"

Well, why did all the Uchichas wanted to start something that would cause innocents to die just for the sake of pride? Why did Konoha want the Uchihas dead? Everyone is the bad guy here. No one is the good guy, but both sides wanted their own way over pride and power. Itachi was probably the only one who thought out of the box and was closest to being the good guy.

Seems like the Uchihas are a very proud clan and any insult done to them was met with little tolerance. No negotiations, nothing.

What if Itachi killed everyone, but the kids? They probably would have ended up like Sasuke. If he kept the clan alive, it would probably be similar to the Nazi party teaching their kids about weakness and strength. Not saying the Uchiha were Nazis, but some things they did were similar.

Itachi had to make a choice, kill his clan and only a few people would die. Leave it alone, and Konoha would die and all it's inhabitants. Chances are, they wouldn't spare the kids either for the same reason. The kids will want revenge.

Who is to blame when everyone is the bad guy? Who do you punish? If nothing started in the first place, then nothing would have happened.

Itachi had to make the biggest and hardest choice of his life because he knew if he left it, nothing would be resolved and chances are things would have been a lot worse than it is now. Unfortunately, the children had to be caught in the crossfire. Look at Sasuke, he wanted nothing more than revenge and he could have easily said no and lived a better life, but he chose differently. Who said the other children would have done the same?

I am not saying Itachi's actions were the best in the world, but from what can I see no one was going to play nice and people were going to die no matter what cause noone could agree.

This is why Itachi is the perfect anti-hero. He did the right thing for the wrong reasons. His story is tragic and this is why I like him. He really is a good guy, but put in the wrong situation thanks to stupid leaders and foolish pride.

[Anguyen92]

^^ I pretty much agree with all of this. One of the sides is going to lose, Konoha or Uchichas, and both of somewhat reasonable points to verify their actions. Itachi had to do what he deems to be right which lead everything to go all spiraling.

I can't believe when I first started watching the show, I deemed Itachi as the bad guy, until I actually see that all Uchichas, except for Itachi and Obito, are a bunch of pricks that are so narcissistic of their clan.

Edited by Anguyen92, 30 August 2011 - 05:05 PM.

[Amy-chan]

Here is the thing Tricksie. You are looking for the good guy that isn't there in the situation. At least not the good guy you are expecting to find.

You say "Why would Itachi kill every single man, women, and child?"

Well, why did all the Uchichas wanted to start something that would cause innocents to die just for the sake of pride? Why did Konoha want the Uchihas dead? Everyone is the bad guy here. No one is the good guy, but both sides wanted their own way over pride and power. Itachi was probably the only one who thought out of the box and was closest to being the good guy.

Seems like the Uchihas are a very proud clan and any insult done to them was met with little tolerance. No negotiations, nothing.

What if Itachi killed everyone, but the kids? They probably would have ended up like Sasuke. If he kept the clan alive, it would probably be similar to the Nazi party teaching their kids about weakness and strength. Not saying the Uchiha were Nazis, but some things they did were similar.

Itachi had to make a choice, kill his clan and only a few people would die. Leave it alone, and Konoha would die and all it's inhabitants. Chances are, they wouldn't spare the kids either for the same reason. The kids will want revenge.

Who is to blame when everyone is the bad guy? Who do you punish? If nothing started in the first place, then nothing would have happened.

Itachi had to make the biggest and hardest choice of his life because he knew if he left it, nothing would be resolved and chances are things would have been a lot worse than it is now. Unfortunately, the children had to be caught in the crossfire. Look at Sasuke, he wanted nothing more than revenge and he could have easily said no and lived a better life, but he chose differently. Who said the other children would have done the same?

I am not saying Itachi's actions were the best in the world, but from what can I see no one was going to play nice and people were going to die no matter what cause noone could agree.

This is why Itachi is the perfect anti-hero. He did the right thing for the wrong reasons. His story is tragic and this is why I like him. He really is a good guy, but put in the wrong situation thanks to stupid leaders and foolish pride.

I agree 100% with this. Great job explaining.

[Evil Potato]

@ Tricksie, concerning the part where you said Sasuke's actions are justified. I will have to disagree with you there. Sasuke has a right to be angry, it is understandable as to why he is in mental turmoil, but you have to consider Sasuke's choices throughout the manga.

You seem to believe that Sasuke didn't get the same kind of love Naruto got and I can kind of see that. However, though Sasuke didn't receive a caring and compassionate person to father him after his clans destruction, he still didn't get hated and resented for who he was. As it was stated, Sasuke was seen as a prodigy and everyone expected much out of him, however for Naruto, Naruto was hated and no one even wanted him to accomplish anything. Sasuke did however gain Kakashi as a father figure later on, just as Naruto had Iruka. Then Sasuke had Naruto as a brother, and he had Sakura's love as well. Many of Sasuke's fellow graduates from ninja academy were willing to die to bring Sasuke back.

What I am trying to point out is that Sasuke has had plenty of love givin to him. He had made a new family in team seven, and was seen as not just a comrade, but as a brother. However, in the end, Sasuke has chosen revenge over and over again. He has attempted to kill Naruto and Sakura twice. He had chosen vengeance and had betrayed some of the only people he would ever be able to call his family. Losing your loved ones doesn't give you a free ticket to go kill other innocent people. Though it seems that Sasuke just tries to kill initially for the sake of not having anything holding him back from getting revenge. Now he claims that he will kill innocent people because of events they had no control over. Sasuke hasn't attacked the village yet but he already had murdered people just because they got in his way ( talking about the Samurai).

I have felt pity for Sasuke as I'm sure everyone has, but I believe one big reason everyone hates Sasuke is because he gets away with too much and doesn't ever seem to face consequences. By this I mean, from team 7. I think many of us would rather see Naruto grow strong and fight against his enemies and gain more fame. But throughout the manga, Naruto has focused on Sasuke over and over again, seemingly ignoring Sasuke's actions. I would rather Naruto bring Sasuke to justice rather than just try to get Sasuke to become a good guy again. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Naruto and Sasuke fight side by side again, but Naruto doesn't have enough anger towards Sasuke, he seems to dismiss Sasuke's actions time and time again. While Sasuke had his character development, all I saw was Naruto chasing him. Now Sasuke's a villain, but I can still see, if he says "I'm sorry" he would probably just walk away. Why doesn't he have to pay for his actions, is it because he suffered as a kid? Where is the justice in that?

Anyways- sorry for all the text, this is just my thoughts on the matter. Its just my opinion, so I'm not trying to say your wrong and I'm right, but this is what I feel about the story. Still my favorite manga though

[Nate River]

Here is the thing Tricksie. You are looking for the good guy that isn't there in the situation. At least not the good guy you are expecting to find.

You say "Why would Itachi kill every single man, women, and child?"

Well, why did all the Uchichas wanted to start something that would cause innocents to die just for the sake of pride? Why did Konoha want the Uchihas dead? Everyone is the bad guy here. No one is the good guy, but both sides wanted their own way over pride and power. Itachi was probably the only one who thought out of the box and was closest to being the good guy.

Seems like the Uchihas are a very proud clan and any insult done to them was met with little tolerance. No negotiations, nothing.

What if Itachi killed everyone, but the kids? They probably would have ended up like Sasuke. If he kept the clan alive, it would probably be similar to the Nazi party teaching their kids about weakness and strength. Not saying the Uchiha were Nazis, but some things they did were similar.

Itachi had to make a choice, kill his clan and only a few people would die. Leave it alone, and Konoha would die and all it's inhabitants. Chances are, they wouldn't spare the kids either for the same reason. The kids will want revenge.

Who is to blame when everyone is the bad guy? Who do you punish? If nothing started in the first place, then nothing would have happened.

Itachi had to make the biggest and hardest choice of his life because he knew if he left it, nothing would be resolved and chances are things would have been a lot worse than it is now. Unfortunately, the children had to be caught in the crossfire. Look at Sasuke, he wanted nothing more than revenge and he could have easily said no and lived a better life, but he chose differently. Who said the other children would have done the same?

I am not saying Itachi's actions were the best in the world, but from what can I see no one was going to play nice and people were going to die no matter what cause noone could agree.

This is why Itachi is the perfect anti-hero. He did the right thing for the wrong reasons. His story is tragic and this is why I like him. He really is a good guy, but put in the wrong situation thanks to stupid leaders and foolish pride.

1. Shadow is correct on my profession. You wouldn't believe some of the excuses I've heard to explain away very atrocious, and sometimes very felonious, behavior.

2. While one area where I disagree with most is how good Itachi is, you miss the broader point I think. For me, the biggest problem with the chapter is the fact that no one is asking question about all of this. I don't think it's obvious Itachi is good here, but ever since Itachi's motives became known the manga has protayed his redemption as instanteous and obvious. No one ever asks questions. At least Naruto decked Minato over it, but Itachi...the guy responsible for many of Sasuke's problems...nothing? Does Madara's overall plan and it's aims simply overpower this to the point where no questions whether Itachi should have even done it? Hell, are they just blaming Madara now? No idea.

The resolution is a issue, but the biggest problem is that everyone in the manga accepts the transformation quickly, easily, and unquestionably. Itachi never has to justify the choice. He just says, I screwed up, and everyone says okay. Nobody asks anything. Regardless of agreement over whether Itachi is good, I'd have a easier time living with that resolution it if people actually challenged it. IMO, Kishimoto fails to do this (or do it well) on a pretty consistent basis.

[alexander]

Well said Tricksie, I agree with nearly everything you say. I personally think that the series truly sank after the Pain invasion arc, showing an absurdity after another. First, we have naruto being dumbed down right after the battle, even tought he was supposed to had become wiser after his talk with Pain. It was like all the wisdom he had gained during the confrontation had vanished, and Naruto all again start acting as the silly little boy he had aways been. Then we have the revelation of Sasuke being member of the Akatsuki, and when Naruto was told of his hostiles intentions against Konoha, he still sides with him by saying that he will save Sasuke, even thought Sasuke doesn't seems to be worthy of it anymore, Naruto even humiliates himself by bowing to the Raikage. At that point I was starting to think that Naruto dedication to help Sasuke was really turning into an ratter sickening obssession, Naruto was so focused to help Sasuke that he stopped looking at the bigger picture all together, like a little kid denying that his puppy had died even tough the poor thing was dead right in front of him. And then we have Sasuke, it's funny, while he wasn't my favourite character, I also understood his motives, I would also want Itachi dead if I were on his shoes, but with time he got so self centered and selfish, he took the cake when he stabed Karin, the same girl who followed him to the very end, and saved his sorry hide more then once, that's just unforgivable, I can't even...
And then we have Sakura confession, that in the end turned into nothing but a mess, Sakura could have approached the situation in so many ways, but she just made her confession look the most embarrasing situation, wasn't she supposed to be the smart type?
And then we have Itachi and Minato, that for the greater good, totally destroyed the lifes of the people they were supposed to take care off, for Itachi, I think his decision made no sense at all, he acted as if his clan was the wrong one, even thought the konoha leaders proved to as bad as them. I would personally had fought alongside my family instead with people that aren't even worthy of my trust. And for Minato, I won't even talk about him, since his decision still pisses me off even today.

[CloudMountainJuror]

We know he didn't. He lied about the Kyuubi. Claimed it was a "natural phenomenon" when actually he attacked Kushina and extracted the Kyuubi from her. There's evidence he lied about other things concerning himself too. So things could very well be worse about the Uchiha clan's actions in general.

I mean, what if he told the 100% truth about the Uchiha coup? Considering that that's the main part that Sasuke would hold against Madara for lying about.

[merryGOflava]

Well said Tricksie, I agree with nearly everything you say. I personally think that the series truly sank after the Pain invasion arc, showing an absurdity after another. First, we have naruto being dumbed down right after the battle, even tought he was supposed to had become wiser after his talk with Pain. It was like all the wisdom he had gained during the confrontation had vanished, and Naruto all again start acting as the silly little boy he had aways been. Then we have the revelation of Sasuke being member of the Akatsuki, and when Naruto was told of his hostiles intentions against Konoha, he still sides with him by saying that he will save Sasuke, even thought Sasuke doesn't seems to be worthy of it anymore, Naruto even humiliates himself by bowing to the Raikage. At that point I was starting to think that Naruto dedication to help Sasuke was really turning into an ratter sickening obssession, Naruto was so focused to help Sasuke that he stopped looking at the bigger picture all together, like a little kid denying that his puppy had died even tough the poor thing was dead right in front of him. And then we have Sasuke, it's funny, while he wasn't my favourite character, I also understood his motives, I would also want Itachi dead if I were on his shoes, but with time he got so self centered and selfish, he took the cake when he stabed Karin, the same girl who followed him to the very end, and saved his sorry hide more then once, that's just unforgivable, I can't even...
And then we have Sakura confession, that in the end turned into nothing but a mess, Sakura could have approached the situation in so many ways, but she just made her confession look the most embarrasing situation, wasn't she supposed to be the smart type?
And then we have Itachi and Minato, that for the greater good, totally destroyed the lifes of the people they were supposed to take care off, for Itachi, I think his decision made no sense at all, he acted as if his clan was the wrong one, even thought the konoha leaders proved to as bad as them. I would personally had fought alongside my family instead with people that aren't even worthy of my trust. And for Minato, I won't even talk about him, since his decision still pisses me off even today.

ya know...sometimes as a manga artist..its hard to explain stuff that happens in the right way. i guess you can call those loop holes...i'm pretty sure kishi had a hard time thinking of how some of these things and how they are going to play out. but not everything can be explained perfectly, sometimes kishi cant make up a story that would fit. but i think overall its okay. the only problem i have was sakura's confession, whether it was true or not, i would have rather her never say anything and just go straight to sasuke....which would have made better sense? since naruto was heading back to the village anyway?? i also didn't like the whole bit with sakura trying to kill sasuke with a kunai when she has freakin SUPER STRENGTH!! but other than that okay......kishi does his best so lets give him some credit. a long manga like this is hard to keep track of!

[RedDelicious]

...i would have rather her never say anything and just go straight to sasuke....which would have made better sense? since naruto was heading back to the village anyway?? i also didn't like the whole bit with sakura trying to kill sasuke with a kunai when she has freakin SUPER STRENGTH!! but other than that okay...

I'm going to take the opposite view on these points.

Would Sakura know that Naruto was headed back to the village? She knew he went to talk to the Raikage, and was likely turned down. He could easily decide to go after Sasuke next, especially since he might not have a lot of time if all the other villages were hunting for Sasuke/Akatsuki.

I get the feeling that if she could have convinced him to go back to the village and stay with her, she would have done that (and let the others hunt down Sasuke). Depends if you think her Team 7 obligation (to put down the "mad dog" Sasuke) came ahead of her devotion to Naruto. I also think she was genuinely surprised that he would fall for her, but still not believe that she would return the feelings.

As far as kunai vs. super strength, it was a poisoned kunai. Maybe if Kakashi would have told her earlier that Orochimaru made Sasuke resistant to poison, she wouldn't have tried it. (The question is, did she know that the monster strength Raikage hit Sasuke several times, and failed to stop him?)

[merryGOflava]

I'm going to take the opposite view on these points.

Would Sakura know that Naruto was headed back to the village? She knew he went to talk to the Raikage, and was likely turned down. He could easily decide to go after Sasuke next, especially since he might not have a lot of time if all the other villages were hunting for Sasuke/Akatsuki.

I get the feeling that if she could have convinced him to go back to the village and stay with her, she would have done that (and let the others hunt down Sasuke). Depends if you think her Team 7 obligation (to put down the "mad dog" Sasuke) came ahead of her devotion to Naruto. I also think she was genuinely surprised that he would fall for her, but still not believe that she would return the feelings.

As far as kunai vs. super strength, it was a poisoned kunai. Maybe if Kakashi would have told her earlier that Orochimaru made Sasuke resistant to poison, she wouldn't have tried it. (The question is, did she know that the monster strength Raikage hit Sasuke several times, and failed to stop him?)

it would have been just easier if she asked where he was heading > ( maybe to easy) but i still dont see the point to the confession...if it was true (which is hard to tell now) then great it was needed but if it was just for him to go back with her...then it really wasnt needed. she could have avoided him, did that sleepy bomb bit and go on to sasuke. granted, it would have killed her, cause naruto wouldnt have known she was going, and thus no bridal style save XD. i just wish she said it differently....it just made me confused

and the kunai thing....she should have just used sleepy bomb if she wasnt sure about her feelings...i mean sleepiness never hurts >:3?? or would he have been immune to that too?? i still think a hit to the head would have been better...and deadlier >:3

i dun hate sakura's for the things she did...i just wish kishi changed it a little.

[naruto-z]

I'm going to take the opposite view on these points.

Would Sakura know that Naruto was headed back to the village? She knew he went to talk to the Raikage, and was likely turned down. He could easily decide to go after Sasuke next, especially since he might not have a lot of time if all the other villages were hunting for Sasuke/Akatsuki.

I get the feeling that if she could have convinced him to go back to the village and stay with her, she would have done that (and let the others hunt down Sasuke). Depends if you think her Team 7 obligation (to put down the "mad dog" Sasuke) came ahead of her devotion to Naruto. I also think she was genuinely surprised that he would fall for her, but still not believe that she would return the feelings.

As far as kunai vs. super strength, it was a poisoned kunai. Maybe if Kakashi would have told her earlier that Orochimaru made Sasuke resistant to poison, she wouldn't have tried it. (The question is, did she know that the monster strength Raikage hit Sasuke several times, and failed to stop him?)

Well if you remember, Naruto had entered Sage mode right before Sakura arrived and was preparing to train so that he could find Sasuke. If Sakura hadn't arrived, Naruto would certainly have at least "tried" to find Sasuke. What surprises me still is how he didn't sense Sakura and gang during sage mode.

And @Tricksie...I get how you feel because I do feel the same way. But what I've noticed with Kishimoto is that he always seems to find a way to conclude things. If he writes anything and makes Naruto act a certain way, he's probably got something planned for it. So I see Itachi's punishment/redemption as planned and will come when Kishimoto is ready to unveil it. As for Naruto acting stupid, I've got nothing. And Nagato's redeption and Naruto's hatred was certainly dealt with I believe at the waterfall.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Don't forget, this is a ninja society. It's a world of hatred and pain. Hell in some countries, something that Itachi did happens. See the country where Zabuza hails from (Mizugakure?), they had the Bloodline genocide and their brutal genin initiation that earned Zabuza's Demon of the Mist moniker. This kind of stuff happens all the time. Maybe that's why no one bats an eye when Itachi says sorry. At the same time, though, not everyone's heard the full story of Itachi's own motives. In this case Naruto and Killer Bee have heard Itachi's regret and remorse. These two are forgiving guys, 'specially since Naruto wants to break the cycle of hatred and revenge. No one else have heard Itachi say "I'm sorry, forgive me?" So, it's somewhat a bit of a stretch IMHO that Itachi's easily forgiven right now. No one else has called him out because no one else has heard him talk about his actions. I think Kishi's just presenting us this: Ok, there's this guy who massacred his entire family sans Sasuke in order to prevent an uprising. He acknowledges that he messed up with his handling of Sasuke. What do you readers think? To reiterate, no one else has heard him talk about the massacre except for the Messianic Naruto and the very laidback, nice Killer Bee, hence these two aren't the most likely to call him out. 'Sides, the Uchiha Massacre doesn't really concern Bee, just that "Oh, wow, you killed off your own family? That sucks." Remember, this is also a full grown ninja, who knows how many Bee has killed.

[naruto-z]

Don't forget, this is a ninja society. It's a world of hatred and pain. Hell in some countries, something that Itachi did happens. See the country where Zabuza hails from (Mizugakure?), they had the Bloodline genocide and their brutal genin initiation that earned Zabuza's Demon of the Mist moniker. This kind of stuff happens all the time. Maybe that's why no one bats an eye when Itachi says sorry. At the same time, though, not everyone's heard the full story of Itachi's own motives. In this case Naruto and Killer Bee have heard Itachi's regret and remorse. These two are forgiving guys, 'specially since Naruto wants to break the cycle of hatred and revenge. No one else have heard Itachi say "I'm sorry, forgive me?" So, it's somewhat a bit of a stretch IMHO that Itachi's easily forgiven right now. No one else has called him out because no one else has heard him talk about his actions. I think Kishi's just presenting us this: Ok, there's this guy who massacred his entire family sans Sasuke in order to prevent an uprising. He acknowledges that he messed up with his handling of Sasuke. What do you readers think? To reiterate, no one else has heard him talk about the massacre except for the Messianic Naruto and the very laidback, nice Killer Bee, hence these two aren't the most likely to call him out. 'Sides, the Uchiha Massacre doesn't really concern Bee, just that "Oh, wow, you killed off your own family? That sucks." Remember, this is also a full grown ninja, who knows how many Bee has killed.

Plus, I can't help but think that they're in the middle of this war and that they were battling for their lives to defeat Nagato. It's hard to have time to think about whether Itachi's trustworthy or not when your in those conditions

[ramenanmitsu]

i also didn't like the whole bit with sakura trying to kill sasuke with a kunai when she has freakin SUPER STRENGTH!! but other than that okay......kishi does his best so lets give him some credit. a long manga like this is hard to keep track of!

One thing I hated was why did she think a kunai was enough to kill Sasuke? If she is smart she should know that a kunai is never enough to kill an Akatsuki member.

Another thing is how can Kabuto make Sasuke immune to every type of poison? Each poison has different anti-dotes. And
making anti-dotes are the most difficult (according to Sasori) that even the slightest mistake will be life threatening. How can there be an anti-dote that works on every poison? If that were the case then, Kabuto has definitely surpassed Tsunade as a medic nin.

Also, how in the world could Kakashi figure out that Sasuke should be immune to every type of poison? An anti-dote for one poison is hard enough. How can he even think that, 'Well I'm sure Orochimaru made sure Sasuke is immune to every type of poison.' That thought itself should be unbelievable.

Edited by narunarunaru, 31 August 2011 - 08:22 AM.

[Darth Krypt]

One thing I hated was why did she think a kunai was enough to kill Sasuke? If she is smart she should know that a kunai is never enough to kill an Akatsuki member.

She was trying to take on Sasuke by surprise. So called backstabbing him. She almost manage to land a hit but we all know what happens.

[alexander]

She was trying to take on Sasuke by surprise. So called backstabbing him. She almost manage to land a hit but we all know what happens.

Plot shield. that's what happened, it can't be seeing, but it's still there.

[RedDelicious]

However, though Sasuke didn't receive a caring and compassionate person to father him after his clans destruction, he still didn't get hated and resented for who he was.

Well, Sasuke did get mentally messed up by a family member (Itachi) that he trusted. The closest similar case is probably Gaara, and we saw what happened to him. (At least initially... he got better. ) He was hated and resented, but he was coping with it, until his dad decided to "test" him.

I personally think that the series truly sank after the Pain invasion arc, showing an absurdity after another. First, we have naruto being dumbed down right after the battle, even tought he was supposed to had become wiser after his talk with Pain. It was like all the wisdom he had gained during the confrontation had vanished, and Naruto all again start acting as the silly little boy he had aways been.

I'm going to paint a different picture, which isn't so absurd. Naruto had a mental breakdown during his battle with Pain. Even though he got to meet his dad and come up with a (philosophical) answer to Pain's question, he is not going to instantly recover from something like that. He may have looked better, but the damage was still there. All the dumb things were actually symptoms of things still not being right with him, the beatdown from Kurai and excessive weeping when talking to the Raikage being two examples.

This is confirmed when we saw a second mental breakdown, after Sakura's confession. (It began in ch 474 pg 11, and caused him to collapse in ch 476, pg 12.) He is probably on his way to recover after confronting his inner self (during Bee's training) and meeting his mom, but he hasn't completely recovered... yet. (Itachi's statement in this chapter would not have been so profound, except it came at a time when he needed and was ready to hear it.)

His "dumb" actions are due to Naruto acting on his beliefs, when some of them had no basis in reality. It is only absurd in the sense that there are entirely too many people in the real world who don't bother to check if their worldview matches with the facts. (There are plenty of examples in politics, but I won't go into details to avoid a flame war. )

Edited by RedDelicious, 31 August 2011 - 01:12 PM.

[tricksie]

@ Tricksie, concerning the part where you said Sasuke's actions are justified. I will have to disagree with you there. Sasuke has a right to be angry, it is understandable as to why he is in mental turmoil, but you have to consider Sasuke's choices throughout the manga.

Yeah, rereading my garbled post I see that "justified" is probably not the best wording. I'm in no way absoving Sasuke of his guilt or responsibilty in the bad things he's chosen to do. What I was getting at is that he is a product of Itachi's making, not his own.

Itachi was the one with the master plan, and Sasuke was meant to just fill this role in it. He had no choice. At the root of all Sasuke's problems is the trauma he suffered at the hands of Itachi. So then who is to blame? Sasuke for doing the bad deeds? Or Itachi for setting him on this path?

There is this great sympathy for Itachi being forced to make a choice between two awful things, the death of his clan at his hands or at Konoha's. Yet Sasuke is seen as a villain, when he never even had a choice. Itachi put him on this path, and then came back, making sure he was on it. Itachi forced him to be the avenger, to live a life consumed with revenge.

My problem, just as Nate has said, is that Itachi's choices are never challenged. He's accepted as good with barely any development, and no long-term accountability.

Even Itachi dismisses his own hand in Sasuke's shaping, by telling Naruto that Sasuke is still clean or undyed. That is Madara that will color him and bend him towards evil. But in reality Itachi is the one who twisted his soul towards revenge. Orochimaru and Madara have only taken advantage of it.

I guess what I mean by "justified" is that Itachi actually chose his fate, while Sasuke has ony been able to react. He's the victim, there was never much of a choice. By the time he arrived at academy he was already in the avenger mindset. The village had no hope of swaying him, if anyone ever tried. Only those moments with Team 7 were positive for him.

It's a shame because that theme of choice vs. no choice is also present with Neji and Hinata's fathers, the twins. Neji's father died of his own choice, and that was important to him. Kishimoto could be drawing some subtle parallels to that, but he doesn't.

Sort of wished I'd started a separate thread for this, as I'd like to continue, but in a broader frame than just Itachi and just Ch. 552. Especially about the Sakura stuff, but I hate to continue here as it has nothing to do with the chapter.

Anyone interested? Mods, could some of the posts be copied to another thread? Like a Plot Holes and Other Problems topic?