168 replies to this topic

[Codus N]

Not to beat a dead horse, but if Sakura was comparatively very weak in part 1, why would it stand to reason she'd get a power boost in part 2? She got a little stronger already, as she learned how to super-charge punches like Tsunade. Other than that, she's very weak as a fighter, just like she was in part 1.

I'm not even sure Tsunade could help her in this regard, seeing as how Tsunade herself isn't exactly godlike. She's easily the least dangerous of the Hokages. I understand that was never her role, and she's an excellent medical nin, but we might need to get used to the fact that Kishi cannot write females for this series in anything other than a supporting role. All the big battles have been fought exclusively by men, and there's no reason to think that won't continue.

The only female in the entire series that I saw with first-class fighting ability was the Mizukage, and we saw her battle for what, 5 pages?

Incorrect, the most awesome female in this series ever is Kushina. Hell, if she was still alive, I'd bet she would give Mei a run for her money

Edited by Newkerz, 02 August 2010 - 04:04 AM.

[TheBugNinja]

Incorrect, the most awesome female in this series ever is Kushina. Hell, if she was still alive, I'd bet she would give Mei a run for her money

You can't say "incorrect," then quote back to me a person that died before the series even started.

I really liked Kushina, but she is not a regular character. She's a flashback.

[Codus N]

I was trying to disagree with you on Kishi not being able to create strong female characters. I guess I didn't quote you properly.

[catsi563]

Tsunade and Sakura weak?????

Wait let me understand that logic.

Two Kunoichi that can dodge multiple rapid fired attacks and anticipate those attacks based on a single encounter, both have the fighting skills to match kage level opponents ((Sakura was stated in the latest databook to be better at Taijutsu then Sasuke post time skip)), and both of which have the capability to easilly reduce buildings to dust with a single blow, due to impact strength which would at best result in crippling blunt force trauma, at worst would result in death from explosive concussive forces ((IE a person would literaly explode)), and both have enough medical and anatomical knowledge to strike precisely enough to incapacitate or cripple or kill even without the super human strength and hitting ability.

Also one of them has mastery of the three basic ninjutsu so that combined with her newfound combat skills she can make use of deception in combat to a degree which even her mentor cant.

And you consider this weak??

I've hated that notion that just because Tsunade and Sakura dont have HUGE ZOMG Flashy jutsu like rasengan and Kirin that they are the weakest Kunoichi, thats jsut ridiculous. Sakura is easilly as capable if not more so then any other Shinobi in the story inspite of having no flashy jutsu to use.

where this laughable notion that the Mizukage out does Tsunade came from is beyond me because its even more ridiculous. She breathes lava and acid ((WEEEEEE!! I'm the mizukage because I have the equivalent of Ninja Bad breath ((FEAR MEH HALITOSIS!!))

At this time the only issue with Sakura is that she has not had dedicated panel time showing her abilities beyond a certain context. If this is how shes treated when she can do what she can do now, I cant wait to see people kevetching how weak she is when she finally gets the Slug summons.

[Insurrection]

Catsi I understand you disagree with the opinion, but no need to be so harsh in tone.

[catsi563]

Im not being harsh. A bit snarky maybe. If you want harsh check me in the politics thread I get down right nasty there.

[Insurrection]

Tsunade and Sakura weak?????

Wait let me understand that logic.

Two Kunoichi that can dodge multiple rapid fired attacks and anticipate those attacks based on a single encounter, both have the fighting skills to match kage level opponents ((Sakura was stated in the latest databook to be better at Taijutsu then Sasuke post time skip)), and both of which have the capability to easilly reduce buildings to dust with a single blow, due to impact strength which would at best result in crippling blunt force trauma, at worst would result in death from explosive concussive forces ((IE a person would literaly explode)), and both have enough medical and anatomical knowledge to strike precisely enough to incapacitate or cripple or kill even without the super human strength and hitting ability.

Also one of them has mastery of the three basic ninjutsu so that combined with her newfound combat skills she can make use of deception in combat to a degree which even her mentor cant.

And you consider this weak??

This seems more then the occasional snarky response. Just because people have the wrong interpretation of skill sets doesn't mean you blow up.

I've hated that notion that just because Tsunade and Sakura dont have HUGE ZOMG Flashy jutsu like rasengan and Kirin that they are the weakest Kunoichi, thats jsut ridiculous. Sakura is easilly as capable if not more so then any other Shinobi in the story inspite of having no flashy jutsu to use.

where this laughable notion that the Mizukage out does Tsunade came from is beyond me because its even more ridiculous. She breathes lava and acid ((WEEEEEE!! I'm the mizukage because I have the equivalent of Ninja Bad breath ((FEAR MEH HALITOSIS!!))

How the hell is it laughable? She's one of the Seven Swordsman and the freakin' Mizukage making her believed to be one of the strongest shinobi in the world that we have little detail on and you think it's laughable and mock a couple of her techniques.

For all you know she could be stronger Tsunade, but there are not enough details. This part just seems borderline NF.

At this time the only issue with Sakura is that she has not had dedicated panel time showing her abilities beyond a certain context. If this is how shes treated when she can do what she can do now, I cant wait to see people kevetching how weak she is when she finally gets the Slug summons.

It's not just about Slugs you know. Sakura deserves more time that's agreeable, but to get stronger can mean a variety of reasons.

By the way I've been in a back and forth with you in the Politics Thead. Double Play.

Edited by Insurrection, 02 August 2010 - 07:21 AM.

[catsi563]

How the hell is it laughable? She's one of the Seven Swordsman and the freakin' Mizukage one of the strongest shinobi in the world that we have little detail on and you think it's laughable and mock a couple of her techniques.

For all you know she could be stronger Tsunade, but there are not enough details. This part just seems borderline NF

Its laughable because multiple forums including this one have adopted her in much the same way as a certian pairing fandom did their princess. There is nothing to indicate she is anything special beyond her two bloodline limits and that shes a woman in an important position which Ill grant you is signifigant in and of itself.

There is not evidence what so ever to suggest she was or is one of the 7 at all thats speculation not backed up by the manga.

As to her abilities and techniques I dont mock them so much, as mock the ridiculous comparisons I've seen where In her techniques are constantly demonstrated as awesome powers, while Tsunade who has shattered buildings with a single punch is ridiculed as weak. This even after by the way while she was rusty and hurt, beat the living snot out of Orochimaru with relative ease, after having had to fight Kabuto.

I just dont buy this notion amongst the Naruto fandom that she and Sakura are weak, and even further I dont buy the notion that a side character introduced out of nowhere is suddenly so much mroe powerful then not one but two established characters, both of whom have full and finished fights under their belts when the Mizukage wasnt able to finish agaisnt Sasuke, Zetsu interference, and Sasuke being tired aside.

[Insurrection]

Its laughable because multiple forums including this one have adopted her in much the same way as a certian pairing fandom did their princess. There is nothing to indicate she is anything special beyond her two bloodline limits and that shes a woman in an important position which Ill grant you is signifigant in and of itself.

There is not evidence what so ever to suggest she was or is one of the 7 at all thats speculation not backed up by the manga.

As to her abilities and techniques I dont mock them so much, as mock the ridiculous comparisons I've seen where In her techniques are constantly demonstrated as awesome powers, while Tsunade who has shattered buildings with a single punch is ridiculed as weak. This even after by the way while she was rusty and hurt, beat the living snot out of Orochimaru with relative ease, after having had to fight Kabuto.

I just dont buy this notion amongst the Naruto fandom that she and Sakura are weak, and even further I dont buy the notion that a side character introduced out of nowhere is suddenly so much mroe powerful then not one but two established characters, both of whom have full and finished fights under their belts when the Mizukage wasnt able to finish agaisnt Sasuke, Zetsu interference, and Sasuke being tired aside.

The fact that you're saying that we've compared her to Hinata isn't. That's superficial. If she isn't a member of the 7 swords it's probably my fault because I thought the Manga stated she was. However the fact she could damage Susanoo impressed me. Also Zetsu's spore technique would come as helpful to any of his allies. Let's steal the enemies chakra and use it against them, it was just another dumb luck Sasuke moment. Sasuke is major character too, it wasn't going to happen.

I'm surprised you're this antagonistic of her though. She actually respects Tsunade, knows what she's doing and when her guard mentioned marriage she threatened to kill him. Plus two genkai. She's is the Mizukage though, so she obviously isn't a weakling.

The notion of weakness is in fact due in part to the interpretation. It's a wide held opinion that Kishi isn't great with female characters, even if he is just trying to designate skill sets. Sakura requires more pagetime, the only reason people think they're weak is because they have the basic standard view set for all characters. There has to be the realization that the enemies are getting strongers and some of them are stronger then Tsunade and Sakura. If people think they are weak it's already because of their own viewpoints. Kushina became a fantastic character in a short amount of time, but it's funny how similar to a character that certain people love and hate they don't acknowledge what's there.

That's not an excuse to blow off other characters though. If it's one thing I've learn about Kishi's thought process is that everything has a purpose.

Edited by Insurrection, 02 August 2010 - 08:05 AM.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

It's not that Sakura's weak, I think, but she's completely overshadowed by the more powerful Naruto and Sasuke. She's like the Krillin of Sasuke's Vegeta and Naruto's Goku. Not weak, but compared to her teammates, she seems weak. She's probably on par or above the rest of the 12 though. In the end, she's a medic nin so her abilities are geared towards staying alive long enough for a battle to end, and in the ninja world, that seems to be a dangerous occupation.

Edited by shadow_Uzumaki, 02 August 2010 - 01:50 PM.

[Black Rose]

I missed 3 chapters. BUT I AM BACK!

And.. *sniff* that was an extremely good chapter. It seems that Naruto followed his mom's advice. NaruSaku is almost clear now. YAHOO!!! (When I am supposed 2 party?)

[Gravenimage]

The suspension is killing me I really want to know what will happen in the next chapter.

[K9ofChaos]

Wow! I was out of town when the chapter was released, but it was well worth the wait.

Beyond the awesome emotional impact of Naruto's conversation with Kushina, Kishimoto has done a heck of a lot to set up a grand finale (don't panic! at least 1-2 more years with all that has to be resolved). Here’s my thoughts on what we can take from this…

1. Naruto has attained control over the ninetails chakra, we know he must now use it to complete "that jutsu" to defeat Madara, Kishi showed a lot of Minato using FTG without going into much detail on how the technique works, as well as mentioning different levels of the technique and showing it go up against Madara - conclusion, this is the unfinished technique that Naruto must complete

2. Madara is directly responsible for the deaths of Naruto's parents and the ninetails being sealed inside him, couple that with his involvement in the Uchiha massacre and you have the source of the majority of the misery that Naruto has experienced in his life, he also possessed abilities that rivaled the 4th –conclusion, more will be revealed about Madara’s involvement in Itachi’s decision, the Uchiha massacre, and Sauske’s fall into darkness, Madara (if he actually is Madara) is the final villain

3. Naruto now has a lot of ammo to use against Sauske, and I’m not talking about the ninetails chakra, he now knows that he had parents that loved him enough to sacrifice themselves for him, this coupled with the loss of Jiraya, and Naruto’s decision not to follow the path of hatred and revenge can go a long way in showing Sauske just how weak and pathetic he truly is – conclusion, combine this with Itachi’s gift to Naruto and you have the formula for a win in redeeming Sauske

4. Finally, the big one, NaruSaku foreshadowing, no one can deny the parallels that were drawn between Minato and Kushina and Naruto and Sakura, in fact, you can even go back and find panels that show just how similar they are, drawn almost identically, throw in the remark to find someone like your mother and you have the perfect setup for NaruSaku – conclusion, Sakura is definitely confused about her feelings because the endearing remark about her forehead was made apparently by Sauske, Kishi has set the standard for solidifying a romantic relationship through such a remark with Minato and Kushina, there was an opportunity for the truth to be revealed to Sakura by Sauske, but no conversation took place, now it’s left to Naruto, my guess would be that he says similar words just before he bolts off to take on Sauske and Madara, knowing he might not survive he may decide to let Sakura know how he feels, Sakura is then left to have the revelation that Naruto has been the one she has truly loved since the very beginning, Lady Chiyo’s words come back into play, “next time, save that which is most important to you.” Sakura will become involved somehow, and Naruto will finally be convinced that her feelings are genuine (no long confession… Inner Sakura and a punch to the head will work.)

Anyway, can’t wait to see how this all plays out!

I strongly believe that Sakura isn't confused about her feelings at all. I think she has moved on from her crush on Sasuke a long time ago and only cares for him as a friend and teammate and nothing more. I'm pretty sure that Sakura wouldn't let her past crush hold her back from starting a romantic relationship with Naruto. If Sakura still had lingering feelings for Sasuke, wouldn't that bench scene be included in the flashbacks she had before she got strangled? I believe that those flashbacks weren't flashbacks of lingering feelings of love for someone that doesn't feel the same way but more like flashbacks of the good times and happy memories of a good friend and teammate and not having a will strong enough to kill that friend even though that friend is going on a dark and destructive path and feel sorry for that friend. It would be like a United States soldier about to kill a war buddy that became a terrorist and having flashbacks of all the good times they've had together and the bond they shared thus the soldier wouldn't have it in them (depending on the person him/herself) to kill that friend thus feel grief from the bad decision that the friend makes. That's because not only that ninjas are assassins or spies, but also mercenaries. The ninjas in the naruto universe are hired by countries to complete missions that fuel their home countries economy and in times of war, fight for the country they're affiliated with. So despite past and present feelings wether romantic or not, there will always be the bond between soldiers like the so called bond between team 7. Because basically, team 7 was just like a team of soldiers or mercenaries with a family like bond. I'm not really a soldier so I wouldn't know exactly what it's like but this is my best guess of what it might be like so this is at least what I think.


As for #1 and #2, I agree with those but for #3 I'm not so keen on that idea of Sasuke being redeemed. I believe that no matter how hard Naruto tries, his words will never reach Sasuke, teaching Naruto that he can't always change how a person thinks. Don't get me wrong, Naruto is well known for changing the perspective of people for the better, that's fine and dandy, but I feel that it would feel more realistic if there was at least one or two people that Naruto's talk no jutsu was ineffectual on thus teaching Naruto a valuable lesson that you can't always change a persons opinion on how they view the world or redeem someone from their crimes they committed.


That's my opinion.

Edited by K9ofChaos, 02 August 2010 - 03:12 PM.

[Black Rose]

Heck, I wanna read the next chapter~

[Gravenimage]

Heck, I wanna read the next chapter~

Me too!

[RedDelicious]

I strongly believe that Sakura isn't confused about her feelings at all. I think she has moved on from her crush on Sasuke a long time ago and only cares for him as a friend and teammate and nothing more.

Agree with this.
We would have evidence that Sasuke is still (more) precious to her, if we see Sakura chose to kill someone else in the Leaf village (Tenten gone bad?), but not kill Sasuke. We have seen her fight and protect, but not assassinate (which is what she tried to do with Sasuke). Her hesitation to kill Sasuke is tied in with her personality and training: to save lives rather than take them.

[catsi563]

I'm surprised you're this antagonistic of her though. She actually respects Tsunade, knows what she's doing and when her guard mentioned marriage she threatened to kill him. Plus two genkai. She's is the Mizukage though, so she obviously isn't a weakling.

getting a smidge off topic so Ill close out the discussion with this. Im not really antagonistic towards her, no mroe then im antagonistic towards Hinata. I actualy find Mei an interesting character with potential. What I'm antagonistic towards is this sudden and to my view really undeserved popularity she seems to have gained.

Itachi, or Tobi, or Kushina I can see what they gained the popularity they did, but weve seen the Mizukage maybe a handful of times, and she seems to have gained an absurd amount of popularity to where comparisons between her and more established characters begin to become absurd fits of speculation base don no solid manga evidence.

Its like the arguments of NH fans that Sakura is weaker then hinata because Hinata has the byakugan and got her but handed to her twice, while Sakura beat Sasori and fought Ino and the sound trio to a draw.

meh its just silly to me. thats all back on topic.

[JG111580]

I strongly believe that Sakura isn't confused about her feelings at all. I think she has moved on from her crush on Sasuke a long time ago and only cares for him as a friend and teammate and nothing more. I'm pretty sure that Sakura wouldn't let her past crush hold her back from starting a romantic relationship with Naruto. If Sakura still had lingering feelings for Sasuke, wouldn't that bench scene be included in the flashbacks she had before she got strangled? I believe that those flashbacks weren't flashbacks of lingering feelings of love for someone that doesn't feel the same way but more like flashbacks of the good times and happy memories of a good friend and teammate and not having a will strong enough to kill that friend even though that friend is going on a dark and destructive path and feel sorry for that friend. It would be like a United States soldier about to kill a war buddy that became a terrorist and having flashbacks of all the good times they've had together and the bond they shared thus the soldier wouldn't have it in them (depending on the person him/herself) to kill that friend thus feel grief from the bad decision that the friend makes. That's because not only that ninjas are assassins or spies, but also mercenaries. The ninjas in the naruto universe are hired by countries to complete missions that fuel their home countries economy and in times of war, fight for the country they're affiliated with. So despite past and present feelings wether romantic or not, there will always be the bond between soldiers like the so called bond between team 7. Because basically, team 7 was just like a team of soldiers or mercenaries with a family like bond. I'm not really a soldier so I wouldn't know exactly what it's like but this is my best guess of what it might be like so this is at least what I think.


As for #1 and #2, I agree with those but for #3 I'm not so keen on that idea of Sasuke being redeemed. I believe that no matter how hard Naruto tries, his words will never reach Sasuke, teaching Naruto that he can't always change how a person thinks. Don't get me wrong, Naruto is well known for changing the perspective of people for the better, that's fine and dandy, but I feel that it would feel more realistic if there was at least one or two people that Naruto's talk no jutsu was ineffectual on thus teaching Naruto a valuable lesson that you can't always change a persons opinion on how they view the world or redeem someone from their crimes they committed.


That's my opinion.

I agree that she has moved on from her feelings for Sauske and that she loves Naruto. I think, to clarify my previous thoughts, Kishimoto has broken down Sauske and built up Naruto in Sakura's eyes very well. I think that she has accepted that there is no future with Sauske, but she still has feelings for him as a teammate and friend. I also agree that the teammate/friend bond is also the reason that she could not bring herself to kill him. However, Kishi has also created the critera for the heroine to find her soul mate. Kushina's experience with Minato happened all at once. She was rescued and held by the one strong and extraordinary person that had not only noticed her red hair trail and understood its' meaning, but also let her know that something she had thought was a definitively negative feature was beautiful to him. If we use this event as a blueprint for NaruSaku, Naruto has already rescued Sakura, held her in his arms, and shown that he truely understands her. Little by little, her reactions to each of these situations has shown her growing feelings, and love is definitely the emotion that is being portrayed. However, the one stumbling block is the compliment of her forehead, which she sees as a negative feature in herself. By disguising himself as Sauske, Naruto accidentally caused Sakura to make the emotional connection to Sauske that Kushina made with Minato (much deeper than the initial crush that Sakura had throughout part 1). I think this is where the lingering confusion and the final subconcious wall lies in Sakura's mind. I also feel this is why we did not get a confession worthy of all of the build up that NaruSaku has received. Maybe I'm reading too much into it because this is a Shonen manga and should accept Sakura's initial confession. However, I want to believe that with all the time, effort, and intricate detail that has gone into developing NaruSaku, that this final wall will be torn down and Sakura will realize that she not only loves Naruto, but he is in fact her night in shining armor, her soulmate, the one to make all of her dreams come true. I think this is coming soon because Kushina has given Naruto a new perspective on love (much better than the cynicism about women that Jiraya and Shikamaru have offered him). Maybe he will understand what Sakura needs to hear and now that he is relieved of his POAL he can finally reveal himself as her soulmate. Maybe this is why the bench scene was not revisited at the time of the latest confrontation with Sauske. It would have been a perfect opportunity for something to be relived or blurted out. Maybe Kishi has purposefully left all of this on the table for the most heartfelt, steadfast, and true revalation in the manga. From these events, I think we will get that epic moment that we have all been waiting for when NaruSaku finally becomes cannon. I'm just hoping, but if Sakura has come to terms with her feelings and Naruto has with his and the whole thing becomes cannon only in an epilogue, I wouldn't be all that suprised. I would just be happy that everything turned out well in the end.

As far as #3 goes, I'm still going to have to disagree. While I do think that Sauske will pay a heavy price for his hatred and need for revenge in the end, I still think that Naruto will succeed where Jiraya failed. Naruto now understands pain and loss. He knows what it means to have a family that loves you. Naruto said that he was through with talking and speeches, but I don't think that he can keep his motor mouth shut long if Sauske keeps hurling the "you'll never understand me" line at him. However, talk-no-justu alone won't do it. Like Naruto said he and Sauske can understand one another better by exchanging blows. Naruto will now have to confront a perfect sharingan genjutsu and I still don't know how he'll overcome it. I guess the options are the gift from Itachi, the ninetails chakra disrupting the technique somehow, or the use of a massively strong shadow clone to learn of Sauske's abilities and give him a false sense of security with his genjutsu (Susano and Amateratsu can be negated by an advanced form of FTG). My biggest expectation is that Itachi's gift will only be actived if Sauske attemps to use the mangekyo sharingan against Naruto. Either it will somehow allow Naruto to fight unaffected by genjutsu (Naruto's biggest weakness), or now that Sauske has Itachi's eyes, a genjutsu will be cast back on Sauske revealing the final real truth of what happened to the Uchiha clan and why this power was entrusted to Naruto (foresight that geniuses like Itachi and Minato tend to have). Reeling from this, Naruto might find his opening and finally beat Sauske down as he deserves. Maybe then Sauske will finally acknowledge that Naruto is stronger, that he took the path that Sauske was too weak willed to walk, that his bonds and desire to protect those he cares for are what drives him to heights that he himself did not know were attainable. Only once he has been thoroughly defeated and has seen how terribly wrong he has been all along will the opportunity to redeem Sauske arise. Sauske would probably ask Naruto to finish him, he himself believing that salvation is lost. But again, Naruto would prove himself a true hero and friend by instead offering forgiveness. Again, just my opinion, but the messages built into this story seem too positive to include "there are just some people too far gone to save." Then again, I'm a sucker for a happy endings.

Oh well, as long as Naruto wins and gets Sakura in the end I'll be happy!

[Dreamer]

I don't mean to be rude Catsi but this manga is about "ninjas" therefore taijutsu won't cut it at top tier level. Sure Sakura and Tsunade have strong punches but what good will it do if against S-class ninjutsu and genjutsu. If you look at Tsunade and Sakuras fights, they both were aided by a partner assisting them at some point. Mei may not have strong punches but to pocess two kekkei genkei's is pretty amazing and rare from ninjutsu. I'm pretty sure her regular affinity's ninjutsu attacks are pretty strong as well. That's just me though and don't want to upset members.

[ciardha]

Its like the arguments of NH fans that Sakura is weaker then hinata because Hinata has the byakugan and got her but handed to her twice, while Sakura beat Sasori and fought Ino and the sound trio to a draw.

And killed with one blow the giant centipede summons that even jonin ninja were fleeing from- much to said jonin ninja's astonishment. And that without even breaking a sweat. Hacked me off how the anime minimized that moment by saying the centipede was merely "down" not dead and having either the same centipede or another later menacing Shikamaru and Kurenai, etc...

As for the fandom worship of Terumi Mei ( Samui and Hinata as well), I think I understand catsi's annoyance, because if you look at the worshiping posts on various Naruto forums it's the same people who bash Sakura and Tsunade. And if you look at the posts the reason almost always stated for their worship comes from- not Terumi Mei's battle skills, but her breast size, in a revealing enough top for their tastes, (apparently Tsunade's is too old, and her breasts have too much natural middle aged sag to turn them on...) and Mei's cougar-like quirk to her personality. It's aggravating to have these same people bashing Sakura and Tsunade as weak, useless, worst Hokage ever, etc...(and note how they almost always in said posts throw out what they think of Sakura's breast size and rest of her physical appearence- stating she has no breasts, is "ugly", etc... and negative comments on how "old" Tsunade is) You do your best to ignore that stupid garbage, but the sheer number of those posts irritates those of us who do like Sakura and Tsunade, because it's completely inaccurate negative portrayals of Sakura and Tsunade.

Edited by ciardha, 03 August 2010 - 01:57 AM.