19441 replies to this topic

[Narufan85]

Here's the thing though, it doesn't matter what a creator intends for his creation, it is how the public receives/perceives it. If the public doesn't accept it, then no matter how much the creator screams for it to be taken how he intended, it will never be.
 
No matter what he says, this movie will always be a tacked on retconn after the end of the manga. That wil never change. If he didn't want it to go that way, he could have required the movie to be released before the end of the manga, then the epilogue chapter could have come after. 
 
However, we know at least a little of how Kishimoto feels by his determinedly confusing and vague manga ending. If someone chose to read it as Lee being the dad and Karin being the mom, then there is more than a little visual evidence to support that.
 
In the long run, the manga is what lasts. In bookstores, libraries and in private homes. The Last will not hold any more sway than any of the other movies do over the manga. Remember The Lost Tower, The Blood Prison? Yeah they have nothing to do with the manga. They barely register in memory, and no one talks about them.
 
It's just a shame. But this movie is so divergent from EVERYTHING Naruto ever stood for that's it hard not to wonder if Kishimoto really had much of hand in it at all. Except for signing off his approval and collecting his checks. Time will tell, I'm sure.

Out of likes, but this x1000. Kishi can talk all he wants about this being canon, but it is a giant retcon that destroys many of the characters we have come to love.

I still can't get over the depiction of love he is showing through Sakura.nonce you love someone as a little girl you can't give that love up? Love built on a bench scene between Sakura and Naruto? Preposterous and insulting.

[Nefertieh]

Lool so the children love is the truest love? I can't even with this movie I'm just laughing

Except Naruto's. He just wanted Sasuke to notice him.

Hey, Himawari and Bolt had to come from
 
Would you rather believe the epilogue, every bit of info that has come out about the movie-- all pointing at NH or 'someone from tumblr' posting something' about some poster? Not that I don't think the poster is legit, its probably just a pity gift to us from Kishi and SP 
Well Kishi, you can kitten off and keep that poster. 

More like baiting NS fans.

[Liu bie]

It is silly to be sad for this?

Edited by Liu bie, 24 November 2014 - 02:08 PM.

[Nar123]

Out of likes, but this x1000. Kishi can talk all he wants about this being canon, but it is a giant retcon that destroys many of the characters we have come to love.

I still can't get over the depiction of love he is showing through Sakura.nonce you love someone as a little girl you can't give that love up? Love built on a bench scene between Sakura and Naruto? Preposterous and insulting.

I think he forgot that "sasuke" in chapter 3 was naruto, lol

[Narufan85]

I wonder if Kishi was the childhood love of his wife? He better be.

[tricksie]

I was one of the first people here to call this movie a retcon, all thanks to time not well spent in the Kingdom Hearts fandom. So yes, ofcourse it's a retcon, but Naruto is after all a cartoon about fictional ninjas, it's not going to create waves and unofficial published sequels to make two characters who should have been together be together, like in Gone with the Wind. Plus, there's a sizeable NH/ SS/ kids Fandom population that will bring them enough revenue anyway.

There's a leaked picture from the movie spoilers of what looks like Lee and Tenten's daughter.

I don't remember the other movies either, but they were alternate-universe stories. That's why Kishimoto himself has to release a statement saying this movie was intended to be in the mangaverse.

 

Oh sorry. I was basically responding to the idea that it doesn't matter what Kishimoto wants, it is how the audience thinks of the work that will determine how it is accepted in the future. Kishimoto has no power over that. But artists often think they do.

 

He wants it to be in the mangaverse so people will accept the next generation series as a legit part of the franchise. So it won't fail. If people see it for what it is — that he abandoned his manga for money — then they won't accept his next project.

 

Anyway, we're in agreement. I wasn't disagreeing with you in the other post, just expounding on something I've seen a few times here. The idea that Kishimoto holds some sway just because he's the creator. But he doesn't.

 

There is a funny anecdote from the dawn of the internet about the L'eggs hosiery company. They put up a website with a forum for women to discuss what types of hose they liked, in which seasons, etc. The creative geniuses of the company thought it would be a great way to get some free marketing and sitmulate product loyalty. Well...that's not always how it works:

 

The boards soon turned into a very popular chat room for transvestite men to discuss which types of pantyhose worked best on hiding leg hair, were long enough, had room for muscular legs, etc. It was clearly not what they planned! Lol. 

 

Not just in mangas, but in lots of real life situations the creator thinks one way and his creation goes an entirely different way. That's all i was addressing.

[ns.Believe.It]

More like baiting NS fans.

Looking at some of the comments in Chatte's thread, I'd say its working.

[lupina]

No, he was not.

Kishimoto was in love with a Girl who wasn't interested in him at all, she was in love with a rude Baseball star or something along the line. Later in live they met again and she fell for him then.

Pretty much the NS storyline.

 

Source: Japanese Radio interview. Can't post anything. Must be somewhere around tumblr.

[六道仙人]

No, he was not.

Kishimoto was in love with a Girl who wasn't interested in him at all, she was in love with a rude Baseball star or something along the line. Later in live they met again and she fell for him then.

Pretty much the NS storyline.

 

Source: Japanese Radio interview. Can't post anything. Must be somewhere around tumblr.

 

it was just an unreliable rumor.

[tricksie]

Riffing off my last post—

 

No one will remember this manga as a great work of art, as a 15-year series as one of the most popular in the world.

 

EVERYONE will remember this by how it ended. Wikipedia, columnists, general reference. It will be a high water mark of what not to do to your fans. Any of them. Hinata is put in a movie to be a plot device for a new series. No one gets a happily-ever-after pairing with development and true love. Not NS fans nor NH/SS.

 

Once the flush of force-fed publicity is over, the reality of what happened in the manga, what Kishimoto did to his story just to get more money and push another series will still remain. That can never be undone by a fan-fiction-esque movie where the secondary character replaces the main female lead only through the sheer power of her passiveness, her sweetness, and her ability to wait.

 

And doesn't it make you think that one of the reasons their pushing the NH love so hard, with all the publicity and character assassination of Sakura, is because they know this is a huge risk? It's a hard sell because it goes so far against the original story and breaks faith with all its longstanding fans. 

[ThroughWithLove]

Hey Dingbat Kishimoto, I've got a question. If Naruto liked Sakura because of his rivalry with Sasuke, why not any of the legions of other girls  like Sakura? Why not Ino or the crowd of background nobody characters who were in love with him? Kishimoto, you sir are an imbecile.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 November 2014 - 02:28 PM.

[Imhd]

But you know after all this I'm really not gonna be sad or angry I'm just too too disappointed
Because really they had to do all this nonsense just to make naruhina canon the couple didn't come naturally like narusaku would have come

I mean from the start naruhina didn't have any real development by themselves first hinata had to die so she can confesse to naruto then neji had to really die so naruhina could have a moment (i mean wtf i still feel bad for neji character his last words literally was to hookup naruto with hinata saying something like "hinata would die for you so take care of her" or something) then hanabi had to be kidnapped so they can spend sometime together in that island and then "dramatically" fall in love together.

While when we think about narusaku they were just this far to be togther they were meant to be from the start (even kishi said it) everything about them made sense and their love for each other was so selfless and they had the best build up and yet all this nonsense had to happen
If naruhina had actually had some real chances and real development from the start non of this illogic had to happen and this just proves that Narusaku should've been the end game from the start and that naruhina from the start doesn't make sense

And what I really believe that kishi decided to go with sakura from the start untill they announced this movie and they decided to switch to hinata
So I'll just pretend like this movie didn't happen from the start and that the manga ended at 698 with naruto's battle with sasuke

[Nefertieh]

Oh sorry. I was basically responding to the idea that it doesn't matter what Kishimoto wants, it is how the audience thinks of the work that will determine how it is accepted in the future. Kishimoto has no power over that. But artists often think they do.
 

Well, I'm sure the authors true intent is significant.

He wants it to be in the mangaverse so people will accept the next generation series as a legit part of the franchise. So it won't fail. If people see it for what it is that he abandoned his manga for money then they won't accept his next project.

Maybe, but he's not doing himself any favours by demonstrating how "good" his writing skills are by pulling an entire movie dedicated to retcons.
 

Anyway, we're in agreement. I wasn't disagreeing with you in the other post, just expounding on something I've seen a few times here. The idea that Kishimoto holds some sway just because he's the creator. But he doesn't.

Sway over fan reception you mean? That's what separates a good author from a bad one, really. If your readership is pointing out that your story isn't adding up, then you probably shouldn't have changed what you intended to write halfway through the story.

Unfortunately Naruto has a very, very large and young fanbase. =\

 

There is a funny anecdote from the dawn of the internet about the L'eggs hosiery company. They put up a website with a forum for women to discuss what types of hose they liked, in which seasons, etc. The creative geniuses of the company thought it would be a great way to get some free marketing and sitmulate product loyalty. Well...that's not always how it works:
 
The boards soon turned into a very popular chat room for transvestite men to discuss which types of pantyhose worked best on hiding leg hair, were long enough, had room for muscular legs, etc. It was clearly not what they planned! Lol. 
 
Not just in mangas, but in lots of real life situations the creator thinks one way and his creation goes an entirely different way. That's all i was addressing.

Yeah, the Simpsons did a spoof if that when Lisa met an author she liked and told her why she liked a theme/ message -- but the author just shook her head and said Lisa got it all wrong!

Edited by Nefertieh, 24 November 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[shisui]

They could have said Naruto simply matured and moved on, since its true he never listed Sakura as one of his goals. Retconing his feelings like this, where they are weak and just because of a rivalry, is a huge slap in the face of NS fans. It was unnecessary, people don't always end with their first love.

[Nefertieh]

They could have said Naruto simply matured and moved on, since its true he never listed Sakura as one of his goals. Retconing his feelings like this, where they are weak and just because of a rivalry, is a huge slap in the face of NS fans. It was unnecessary, people don't always end with their first love.

He did though. >.< Kind of. In the end of Part I, he said "maybe Sakura-chan will start to like me!"

[harry4e]

In the end, Naruto's like for Sakura wasn't real love since the very beginning. He just wanted to win over Sasuke. Moreover it's not Sasuk's turn (meaning he doesn't appear that much). That's roughly all the preview was. Naruhina's wedding ceremony was touching (I didn't leave) and after that the last thing seemed to be a kiss between Naruto and Hinata. 

 

Wait what? Wa Kishi so lazy that he couldn't even read chapter 3? lol....Oh boy, So why did Naruto have no interest in Ino or every other girl in the class? And to have Sakura who only liked Sasuke because every other girl in class did, is as about as hypocritical as you can get, we got the Sakura Ino flashiback, we saw her imitating Ino, Kishi pretty much told us Sakura only liked Sasuke because of Ino.

 

It's one thing to make pairings that don't make sense happen but to make a mockery of the main charactors to do it, is not forgivable.  Why the kitten have him still want to be Hokage then? or save the entire world? He only wanted that because he wanted to be recognised, seen as a hero so they actually acknowledge him, should have thrown that dream in the freaking fire while he's at it. Why bother wanting to save Sasuke, that was only because of guilt right? should have called the Manga Naruto the Jealous kid who wants everything the other boy has.

 

 

They could have said Naruto simply matured and moved on, since its true he never listed Sakura as one of his goals. Retconing his feelings like this, where they are weak and just because of a rivalry, is a huge slap in the face of NS fans. It was unnecessary, people don't always end with their first love.

 

Ns fans? It's a huge slap in Naruto fans face...He just made the main charactor look like a petty moron.

Edited by harry4e, 24 November 2014 - 02:37 PM.

[tricksie]

Well, I'm sure the authors true intent is significant.

Maybe, but he's not doing himself any favours by demonstrating how "good" his writing skills are by pulling an entire movie dedicated to retcons.

 

Took a Philosphy of Art class one semester and we grappled with the concept of who determines the intent of the art, the creator or the audience member? Who determines its beauty, its worth, its social impact, etc. And throughout the whole class, we came back to it again and again, this tug-of-war between artist and artwork for control.

 

Ultimately it becomes clear the there is the artist and there is h/her creative child. And they are entirely separate creatures. Just like a real parent-child, the parent only has control for so long, then the child begins to impact the world in their own way. And the creator has no more control, whether they want it or not.

 

In the short term, Kishimoto dismantled his whole storyline and sold out his creative child to insure that his new series does well. But in the long term I predict that the manga ending, the movie, the new series and all the publicity surrounding it will pale in comparison to the other 698 chapters of the manga. And that people will remember the manga not as some long developed love story or even a friendship tale, but as a perfect example of what not to do to your fans or to your own creation. In the end, Naruto will become a cautionary tale and will be referenced as such. Always with the qualifier of "Back in the beginning, when it was still good."

[Imhd]

I really just hope after all this mess settle down that kishi would look back at his own work and just feel ashamed, VERY REALLY ashamed.

[Atheck]

Is it likely for this movie to tank? Or generate less revenue compared to the previous entries? From what that insider spoke of at the store, the merchandise was apparently not selling too well. Could this be a ray of light for things to come? Nothing short of a financial decline and medicore ratings that expose the many inconsistencies and flaws with this movie can offer any consolation now. 

Edited by Atheck, 24 November 2014 - 02:52 PM.

[tricksie]

I think it's important to distinguish between author's intent and fan interpretaion because part of the publicity is telling NS fans that we've been reading it wrong. Which is just a horrible, horrible thing to do. And is completely untrue.

 

- A fan is welcome to read it any way h/she chooses.

 

- Whatever the fan chooses to believe, is the way that story will always be for them.

 

- It reflects back on the author/editors/animators/publicity groups that they are working tremendously hard to go against what has already been laid out as fact in the story to get us to believe something else is the truth. All so that they can make a little more money.

 

The message is anyone who sees anything except NH and SS is reading it wrong. What a colossal F U to the last 15 years of readers.