4869 replies to this topic

[Kyuudaime]

Hmm....I never have, but that amuses me to no end, the fact that anyone would use something that has the same symbol to prove cannon is absurd, and it's not even the same symbol, how......stupid.

Edited by Kyuudaime, 13 September 2008 - 06:16 PM.

[Daissuke]

Hmm....I never have, but that amuses me to no end, the fact that anyone would use something that has the same symbol to prove cannon is absurd, and it's not even the same symbol, how......stupid.

I believe one person once told me, accompanied by incorrect tenses, bad spelling and horrid grammar that the fact that Kishi drew that was super important. That and that she was alone with Naruto.

Said person also told me that Hinata was dressed like that to 'impress' Naruto...

:rolleyes:

[KittenLou]

Oh, so they've been using this as "evidence" when it's not even the same symbol?

For the most part, yes. At first glance, it looks like the pendant is given a specific design, like there's a curl of some sort engraved in it. So they just assumed it was the crest on Naruto's back jacket and speculated that Kishimoto intended to have Hinata bound to Naruto from "the very beginning".

I strongly disagreed because it made next to no sense and thought it looked more like the Hyuuga's flame crest more than Naruto's and zoomed in to confirm it and... By golly, it's a regular pendant. XD I really didn't expect that, but whatever. lol

Another thing that's brought up is the splash cover for page 297 that features Hinata. I think you know the one I'm talking about: "Guided by a golden light, she steps out into the sun."

The splash pages hold a significance to the future plot, which - if that were the case - the splash for chapter 250 featuring Iruka, Ebisu, and Suzume must foreshadow a forthcoming of three very minor characters, or that Shizune and Tonton on chapter 288's splash will have a similar occurence. It's not a total impossibility, but it's pretty close. I kind of contradict myself in the comment I made on darkhope's NaruHina development essay, but the most the splash cover does is give insight to a character. That's it.

"Guided by a golden light" could mean a variety of thins: Like, say, Hinata slowly following her own path as opposed to lurking behind Naruto. You never know.
I will admit to the belief that Hinata will be given development later in the manga (as being part of the only team with a female sensei, there may be a strong bond between her and Kurenai), but it's going to give Hinata's character more definition to where she doesn't need to rely on the inspiration she gets from Naruto, it's going to mold her into becomming strong on her own... I hope.

Edited by Kitten, 13 September 2008 - 07:25 PM.

[Kyuudaime]

What you say makes sense Kitten.

I believe one person once told me, accompanied by incorrect tenses, bad spelling and horrid grammar that the fact that Kishi drew that was super important. That and that she was alone with Naruto.

Said person also told me that Hinata was dressed like that to 'impress' Naruto...

:rolleyes:

Again, absurd.

[Endros]

Basically, I'm looking to examine the numerous anime "tropes" within the Anime of Naruto with regards to the Naruto/Sakura Dynamic.

The first and most irritating one from the view of Naruto/Sakura fans is the argument that Sakura is abusive. Note that often in an anime a male and female character and their closeness is defined by physical reprimands when the male does something stupid or perverted. This is seen again and again in anime after anime that is comedic. The "abuse" is not intended to be mean or hateful and is, in fact, intended to be educational as the male is seen as being dense and unresponsive to more subtle clues. These actions do not cause any permanent damage to either the male or the relationship between the two.

If there were ever a case for this method being used upon a person, it would be Naruto. I will openly admit that I do not consider him to be stupid just incredibly dense at times. He's far too creative, sensitive, and quick on the uptake with some things to be stupid, but thats another essay. The manga casts him as incredibly dense when it comes to how to interact with people and knowing the proper way to deal with things socially. This is especially important in a highly social and contextual environment such as Japan.

Let's examine the nature of this "abusive" relationship by going through the scenes where she could be cast as abusive.

The first scene we see her acting this way is Issue 3. In fact, there are 3 seperate times where she mistreats Naruto in this issue. The first scene is where she orders him to move because she wants to sit next to him and then literally runs over Naruto to get to Sasuke. The second is where she beats him into the ground for the accidental kiss and the third is the famous henge/bench scene where she calls him a nuisance and lucky for not having parents. Following this she is quickly admonished by Sasuke and feels regret. These scenes are establishing the ground work for the relationship in the future and showing how Sakura initially feels about Naruto. In short, she is cruel and insensitive in these scenes.

The next scene where she either admonishes him for a stupid decision is Issue 10. Naruto has just stabbed himself in the hand with a Kunai. She asks if he's a masochist in what would be a most likely condescending tone. This is replicated again an issue later when he's almost impaled a bunny on a kunai "by accident" and she yells at him. These are both in response to Naruto making a stupid decision and a bad result coming about because of it.

Note: The scene with the bunny is one that makes me think Naruto is smarter and more perceptive than he seems. He, not Kakashi, notices the other Jounin first.

Issue 13, Naruto is admonished again. This time for challenging a jounin and charging straight at him. Considering that this jounin had neutralized Kakashi, this was another stupid decision.

Ok, here's the thing. Anytime, she admonishes Naruto for something other than what he deserves it for, she is shown the errors of her ways. Basically, anytime she lacks confidence in Naruto he does something unexpected.

Ahhh... geez this is taking forever. I need to take a break, I'll have a bunch more up but most of these events are similar.

[Kyuudaime]

Yea, I've noticed about a year and a half ago about the "abusive" thing, and have told many people that if anything, it's how the female will express her love towards the male.

Anyway, can't wait to see you continue that, I love reading that stuff.

[Endros]

Ok, still working on the tropes one. It's just a drag to go through every single issue to look for stuff. I'm up to an issue in the 50's... I think. This bit is gonna look at the famous Forest of Death Scene (Sakura/Sasuke) and the Heaven and Earth Scene (Sakura/Naruto).

However first I'm gonna address something that truly annoys the piss outta me when reading fanfiction and when discussing the nature of pairings with people.

Suffixes

Suffixes in Japanese culture(-san, -sama, -kun, etc.) are effectively similar to titles such as Dr., Mr., Mrs., Master, etc. in Western culture. The only one of these that doesn't fit that mold is the suffix -chan which is more similar to a knickname or generic aphorism such as cutey, honey, muffin, etc. in American. Granted that is a very very crude but still applies.

Now, the suffixes are assigned a ranking based upon how they applied, with -sama being the most important. In Japanese culture, the suffix -kun is applied to a young/er male of perceived approximate rank socially with the speaker. Whereas, -san is applied to a full grown adult. This delineation is seen in the western titles of Master and Mister(Mr.) or Miss(Ms.) and Misses(Mrs.).

Further closeness/familiarity with the subject can be seen in whether or not the family name or given name is used. The difference between Uzumaki-san and Naruto-san. With that stated, this is how the naming convention would be applied to Senju Tsunade: (from most formal to least)

Hokage-sama
Senju-sama / if familiar Tsunade-sama
Senju-san / if familiar Tsunade-san
if subject was male (Tsunade-kun)
Tsunade
Tsunade-chan/ Tsunade-baachan
Tsunade-teme (this is so informal it's insulting, such as calling someone and reffering to them as Jackass, a**hole, or b*tch)

Note that the inclusion and use of these titles is important in Japanese culture and someone is considered disrespectful if they are not used. Disrespect is a huge no no in Japanese culture and one of their huge gaffes (which is why Naruto is punished affectionately when he doesn't use the titles or refers to Tsunade as baa-chan). Typically the only people who someone wouldn't refer to with a title are spouse, VERY close friends, and siblings.

Ok, so why is this important?

Because titles create space and distance between the speaker and the person being referred to. Which is why people will often say "Don't call me blank, Call me blank2" in order to create closeness. This is reinforced by dialogue Kishimoto himself wrote about the titles, refer to the section where Sai discusses titles in Issue 311.

So by imposing these titles, you are creating a distance between yourself and the other person. By maintaining the titles, you are maintaining the distance between you and the subject. So by looking at this, There is an implied distance between her and Sasuke that is not implied between her and Naruto. This is also replicated by the relationship between Hinata and Naruto (as well as everyone else). The initial lack of title represented either lack of respect or familiarity with Naruto and the current lack of a title represents closeness and friendship, a shared bond. That's much better than Sasuke is doing.

Now, there is also not much use of titles within the Konoha 11 due to their closeness as comrades. So we can't read too much into it.

Two other subjects covered in this part of the post:

First, If people want to use the splash pages/covers for support of a pairing and the argument that either Naruto/Hinata or Sasuke/Sakura is still supported, simply point them to the very first splash page. This is the first time any of the "main four" characters are seen. Naruto occupies the majority of the two page spread and is the foreground being breathed out of a Giant Frog's pipe smoke. Sasuke is shown alone in the upper left astride a giant hawk. Where are Sakura and Kakashi you ask? Oh, Sakura is seen, two issues before she appears, in a giant frog's kimono flap staring at Naruto with a bit of a blush. Kakashi is seen looking at Naruto with a bored expression on his face on top of the Giant Frog. The frog/toad of course being one of the two animals that Naruto is very closely identified with through out the manga.

Okay, now I'll wait quietly while you go check that out...

Done? ok let's move on

Second, Sakura in her pre-fangirl phase has short hair. May be that this is important, may be it's not. I would personally consider the haircut combined with the decision to protect the boys as a step out of her fan-girl phase. In fact, the part before that are littered with Fan-girling and inner sakura moments. Compared with the sections after there are very little with the moments going down almost exponentially to the current state where there has only been one (she's terrified of Tsunade)

ok, taking a break. Will post bridge and forest of death analysis later tonight, just need to put my thoughts into sentences and paragraphs from my notes and type it up.

Edit: It's going up tomorrow. tired, need sleep

Edited by Endros, 22 September 2008 - 06:46 AM.

[Kyuudaime]

I've known a majority of that, but still good to read.

On a side note, anyone that uses "Tsunade-teme" or "Sasuke-teme" is just completely using it wrong, they think teme means bastard, which it does not, it's best equivalant is saying "you" very rudely and out of anger, it's not a suffix.

At least I'm 99% sure, if anyone knows I'm wrong please correct me.

Edited by Kyuudaime, 23 September 2008 - 02:27 PM.

[Derock]

I've known a majority of that, but still good to read.

On a side note, anyone that uses "Tsunade-teme" or "Sasuke-teme" is just completely using it wrong, they think it teme means bastard, which it does not, it's best equivalant is saying "you" very rudely and out of anger, it's not a suffix.

At least I'm 99% sure, if anyone knows I'm wrong please correct me.

You are...

Correct.

[Nate River]

Guys...

We have an entire thread dedicated to fanfiction faux paus. This thread is for debate.

[catsi563]

How are any of the above posts not completely valid points of debate?

[Kyuudaime]

He's probably referring to my post, and for that I apologize.

[Nate River]

He's probably referring to my post, and for that I apologize.

And most of Endros's. It's not a big deal, but I don't want this to deviate into a discussion about fanfiction when there is a thread dealing directly with that subject in the fiction thread. This is meant for pairing debates related to the manga and anime, not fanfiction.

[Daissuke]

Well, while I agree that naruto's "interest" is still there, its drastically reduced compared to the first arc, and everyone can clearly see that. And this point can't be ignored. Liking sakura, while it wasn't the entire reason but a huge factor, the push that made him like her in the first place was to gain her acknowledgement. After he received that, it "could" have been a coincidence, but we see that he has backed off from her alot in part 2 because he has already received one of the greatest rewards from sakura he always desired. He hasn't backed off from her SOLELY because of his distractions with saving sasuke in this sense.

Naruto always craves acknowledgement before friendship, friendship before romance. Once he got the acknowledgement and friendship from sakura, he didn't see any real desire to constantly crave for anything else from her even more. THat isn't fair for sakura in the first place since she's rejected him time and again and he has moved on to settle on other priorities, fully content that sakura cares for him at least platonically. He isn't a selfish person, and I think it woudl be highly unlikely that he will constnatly try to keep courting her after all the rejections he got.

And in this way, they are growing further apart romantically because even if naruto's advances on her decreases (which it is) and stops(potential possibility),that would be the end of it. Think about it. If naruto's advances decrease and stops, what makes anyone think that sakura will suddenly pursue after him? Sakura shows no care about whether or not he will stop, so far she hasn't at all and never cared no matter how many times he's hit on her. In this sense, any ounce of a romantic dynamic in their relationship would be over, since sakura (in all canon evidence so far on how she acts towards naruto) will be highly unlikely to sexually/romantically pursue naruto if naruto stops his own advances on her.

Exploring more on why I said that wasn't FAIR for sakura in the first place is this. Naruto and Sakura both know and understand that achieving a relationkittenhat they have now, which is platonic, was already VERY hard to do in the first place. They had to get over their differences and most of all Sakura, had to throw away alot of her pride, the hatred and bias she had for naruto in the beginning to even accept him as a friend. In this way, Naruto will understand that trying to force, push and extract out romance from sakura is asknig too much and yes, UNNECESSARY. Sakura has already done for him more than he ever even thought was possible, since in pretimeskip she openly stated that she hates him.

It isn't to say that "the narusaku won't bite our arses in the future" as you say, but if theres anything supporting canon implications, to the best of my abilities, I don't think kishimoto is having naruto's approaches on sakura decrease for nothing.

And whatever the case, sakura still shows no signs of contemplation or care on whether or not, or why naruto has backed off from her. Can anyone really say that she SHOULD care? or if theres any necessity in her even caring about why naruto has stopped trying to court her? I don't see that making much sense. She's never cared in pretimeskip, she's already accepted him as a friend, theres no real reason for her to care anymore then that.

To this day, sakura still loves naruto in a platonic way in nearly anyones standards. Largest canon evidence being that --->

she has already accepted him as a human being, a comerade, one of her most precious friends. She protects him, has his back, helps him, cares for him...... but still shows no desire of sexual attraction for him at all.

Anyone that says that sakura is potentially masking her feelings are backing it up with their own interpretations and theories, theres nothing in the actual manga to show that. It's a "possible" theory that she may be doing this, but thats just as likely as to say that Sai is potentially gay for naruto because of all the lewd kitten jokes. Or that sakura still loves sasuke. In the end, some ppl just interpret it differently. No evidence, proof anything at all, not even an ounce.

And as for people wondering about what exactly naruto will do when sakura does show interest in him and want to have a relationship while trying to save sasuke. Yes you are right. Nobody can ever be exactly sure what he'll do. But think about this.

Naruto has openly stated that saving sasuke is more important than anything, exceednig his dreams of becoming hokage. Personally I used to think that naruto would try to become hokage at the same time while saving sasuke...but he didn't. Why?

If you think about that, I think it makes sense that naruto will actually choose not to be in a relationship with sakura. He MIGHT, but the chances of that happening while trying to save sasuke, to me in all the utmost of logical senses, seems to be unlikely.

One of the biggest questions I have though for narusaku fans is this. Why can't two people be of the OPPOSITE sexes, care for each other absolutely deeply and truly genuinely...but not be into each other romantically/sexually?

This is just something that I wonder about. And please don't say "because naruto shows interest in her". Naruto is still very young and quite naive with the whole topic of romance/sexuality. Judging the foundation of the whole narusaku relationship basing it only on the fact that naruto shows some interest in her now and then is not enough.


Anyway, Whatever happens in the future, will happen in the future but one can't ever be too sure.


__________________

From someone who supports NaruSasu and supposedly none of the big three~

[Jenskott]

I'm sorry, but I have skipped over the most of it. However one paragraph drew my attention:

One of the biggest questions I have though for narusaku fans is this. Why can't two people be of the OPPOSITE sexes, care for each other absolutely deeply and truly genuinely...but not be into each other romantically/sexually?

That is very true. Two characters of opposite sexes can care for each other without that caring being of a romantic/sexual nature. HOWEVER, the same thing works with two characters of the same sex. Two men or two women can care for each absolutely and deeply, without being into each other romantically/sexually, but many yaoi/yuri fans don't seem understand this. It's slightly frustrating to me, because human relationships are very varied and it's interesting exploring the different kinds: friendship, brother/sisterhood, rivalry, parents/children, master/disciple, lord/vassal... but often the fandom is obsessed with romance, they don't bother with other relationships, jump rushly to conclutions, and try proving in canon the love of two characters maybe ignore or even loathe at each other (of course, the last sentence includes shippers of both heterosexual and homosexual pairings).

Naruto has stated repeatedly and insistently he likes Sakura and regards Sasuke like his brother. That IS canon. Moreover, often he has shown IN THE MANGA being interested in women and disliking men.

Therefore, he loves Sakura like a possible girlfriend/life partner and loves Sasuke like his brother. He isn't in love with Sasuke and he won't consider taking him or other man like his lover. If you like the idea of Naruto and Sasuke in love romantically with each other is your choice and I respect it. But NaruSaku being romantic love and NaruSasu being brotherhood/rivalry is canon, you like or not, unless Kishimoto (who despite NaruSasu fanservice has gotten out of his way for showing Naruto isn't interesed in men) states otherwise. So don't try proving me otherwise.

[roninmedia]

About Naruto's decreased interest.

I don't think anyone, even a NaruSaku fan would want to see Naruto ask Sakura out as often as he did in part one. While I can assume Naruto probably asked Sakura on a date as often as Sakura asked Sasuke on a date (which was probably every single day), he did find time in his schedule to train and improve as a shinobi. I can elicit several reasons to why the interest isn't there.

1) In part one, Naruto and Sakura when asking their respective objects of affection essentially expect a "No" while hoping for a "Yes". I do see it as a matter of pride and a maturity that you would tone down on the date requests while you'll pretty much expecting a failure. For the SasuSaku shippers, I don't think you'd expect or want Sakura to be asking Sasuke out as often as she did pre-timeskip.

2) Naruto does know Sakura really likes or loves Sasuke based on the hospital scene and the promise of a lifetime. I've heard the SasuSaku argument that Sakura confessed her love to Sasuke and there hasn't been evidence to disprove it, the confession still stands. Naruto has received no evidence to the contrary, so he still thinks it true (i.e. chasing the girl with the boyfriend and even if they break up, she didn't tell you or you don't know until you ask. Naruto is not going to ask "Do you still love Sasuke, Sakura?").


And if my memory is correct, we've seen Naruto ask Sakura out three times onscreen in part one (After the teams are announced, after the Wave Arc, and before the Chunnin exams). The same amount of times as in part two (Chapter 246, 311, and 350, where Naruto thought it was a date).

[Daniee]

I don't understand at all where he/she is getting that Naruto's advances towards Sakura have decreased...
In Part 2, Naruto has tried to get a date with Sakura in almost every scene where they're doing casual stuff(not on a mission or discussing important matters), a total of 3. In Part 1, the only time I recall Naruto making a move on Sakura was at the end of the Zabuza arc, and that was because Sakura asked Sasuke out and he refused.

[Kyuudaime]

Hmm....Sakura has shown no romantic motioms towards Naruto? Well, then I guess when she accepted his date (but didn't go because he couldn't pay it all) and felt remorse for not going, and the feeding scene don't count.

As for evidence against Sakura loving Sasuke, the scene was a mistranslation, she did not make a proclomation of love, end of story.

[catsi563]

I disagree that the feeding scene doesnt count. in fact her offer counts a lot. while it wa sinterrupted in comedic fashion. The offer to feed someone is considered a very affectionate and intimate notion.

Its an issue of trust in that you trust the person feeding you to not drop the food in your lap or poison it or similar. its also the second time shes done it for him. this time much more willingly.

[Kyuudaime]

Sorry, I re-read my statement and saw my error, I was trying to be sarcartic.
[/idiot]
The date and feeding scene do count, my bad for the confusion.