Jump to content

Close
Photo

The Great NaruSaku Debate Thread!


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
4869 replies to this topic

#1221 Endros

Endros

    Academy Student

  • Academy Student
  • Pip
  • 35 posts

Posted 09 July 2008 - 01:06 AM

I guess this would go here... Hi all I'm new. I had to write this because its been rattling around in my head for about a week. Please rip this apart and I will fix. Any and all arguments throw em out there. The idea is create a bunch of these examining several events such as the Promise of a Lifetime/Sasuke Leaving scene, the CS/KN4 scenes, structure of the manga, plot, etc. within the context of each other and Naruto/Sakura. Basically, I'm working to go through the plot and show why Sasuke/Sakura is full of fail and why Naruto/Sakura suceeds.

Examination of the Feeding Scene(s) (Issues 008,173-175, 343)

Ok, what this seeks to do is to analyze the various feeding scenes within the manga that we have seen so far. First, I need to state bias as that will ultimately affect how I view the scenes. That being said my bias viewing these scenes is that I’m a fairly passionate Naruto/Sakura shipper and not a big fan of Sasuke within the manga. To further clarify, I understand and enjoy the way that Sasuke is used to counterpoint Naruto and their parallel growth. I also greatly enjoy interactions between the two characters as they seem to be natural friendly rivals/close friends. However, I am greatly angered by the very nature of the character, which is a good thing as that seems to be the objective at this point within the story. If a point of mine can be either refuted or well argued against enough I plan to either add it to this “essay” or try to argue against it.

First, let’s discuss the nature of feeding someone and the implications outside the manga. Most often those who are fed by another are incapable of doing themselves whether they be injured, too young ( or old). The first image that pops into my mind when I picture feeding is a Mother feeding a child, an act of caring and love. This would carry through to the other examples of someone being injured or too old to feed themselves. These are all acts of caring from the feeder to the recipient, especially if it is not a job. Even if it is a job, there is often a level of care and personal attachment that develops. This occurs because you are in essence helping someone do an action that continues their lifespan and should improve their general overall health; it might also alleviate a pain of sorts (hunger).

The person who is being fed must put a certain level of trust into the interaction because you are trusting the person not to do a couple of things including not embarrass you (if the feeding is public), poke you with sharp implements, and possible poison you (worst case). You are also acknowledging that you are unable to do something basic for yourself. By acknowledging this event, you are partially labeling yourself an invalid and admitting that you must rely upon others for subsistence. You are acknowledging weakness. There is also a high degree of physical closeness and high likelihood of touching. This means that you also have to allow this person to perhaps physically touch you as well as near a very sensitive portion of your body. So ultimately the act of one person feeding someone is NECESSARILY intimate.

Now let’s focus on the idea of two people who aren’t in the situations above, using a situation between a male and female who are unrelated (by blood). This is where we see the situation in the mangas begin. As I have previously laid out, feeding someone is necessarily an intimate act. Using this idea as a basis let’s examine the act in the light of culture. Studies have shown that there is a link between food sharing and sexual intimacy. When American College students were surveyed regarding what the perceived nature of a relationship was when one person was sharing food with another they were given three choices :

(1) simple sharing, such as passing a dish; (2) feeding the partner from his or her plate by hand or utensil; or (3) offering food from which one has already taken a bite or lick.

The results showed that:

“Those who practiced "simple sharing" were perceived as nonsexual friends; the couples who either fed each other or exchanged already sampled food were perceived as sexually involved. Across cultures, offering and accepting food that has already been eaten or licked (like an ice cream cone), meaning that it is potentially "contaminated" by saliva and germs, is often perceived as limited to people who are intimately related.”

Note: Full Paper - http://www.sscnet.uc...haring_1998.pdf Summary -
http://www.answers.c...ic/sex-and-food

Food in this case represents a degree of physical intimacy that is expected to lead to a higher levels intimacy. And this is in Western culture which is stereotypically more emotional regarding intense feeling of love and displays of affection that Japanese culture. Moving on, there are numerous instances of the act of sharing food or feeding another has been sexualized within media. Some of the more famous scenes are from movies such as Top Gun, Wildthings (alcohol but still), Varsity Blues, Flashdance, Like Water for Chocolate to name a few.


Now, the important part… the actual text in question, the MANGA. To obtain how the author intends us to view these scenes, we must look at them within the context provided for the author and that means to examine all of the scenes between the characters and the proffering of food

The first scene occurs 8 issues in. In issue 8, Team 7 have been reprimanded and told that they shouldn’t be ninja by their sensei because they have failed to get the bells from him. He also states that they each failed in several other aspects of what is supposed to be a ninja’s basic skill set. He faults Naruto for failing to hide and for not looking “underneath the underneath”, Sakura is told that she focuses on Sasuke too much and ignores Naruto to her own detriment and Sasuke is chastised for failing to work with his teammates thinking that they would only slow him down*cough**cough*. The two bento boxes go to the less out and out failures (and the ones who didn’t try to cheat) of Sasuke and Sakura. While Naruto is tied to the post for his failures, Sasuke realizes that he needs to others so that he can achieve his mission and offers his food with no flair to Naruto so that he can eat. Sakura, afraid of failing due to Kakashi’s order not to feed Naruto, questions the wisdom of the decision. Sasuke effectively responds that it’s ok because they won’t get caught and that they need him anyway. Sakura blushes, thinks it over and then promptly offers her food to Naruto. What’s important about this interaction? Well first is the offer of the food between the group. Sasuke sees it in purely logical terms whereas Sakura and Naruto see the offering as something more as seen by the blush on both their faces (Page 13- Panels 3, 4, 7, 8) In my opinion, for Naruto it represents acceptance for him by his new teammates and a justification of his worth. For Sakura, it’s most likely a sense of embarrassment from the conversation in Chapter 3. Also, that the offering of Sakura’s food is head down, arms extended with the bento box being lifted above her (Same page – Panel 6). As far as my understanding, this is an offering of apology within Japanese culture; so in essence, she is trying to start to make up for her comments and behaviors. This moment is used to solidify the nature of their teamwork as the next time we see them all together working towards an objective is the capture of Tora-chan.

The next feeding scene we get between the characters is not until much later. The beginning of the scene is in issue 173 and is spread across the next two (174 and 175). The beginning of the scene is on Page 13 – Panel 6. We are shown Sakura sitting as Sasuke’s bedside busily working on something, which we quickly learn is an Apple. We see the care that she is putting into meticulously peeling the skin from the Apple and we hear her thoughts of “Yep, I did it this time… Sliced them nice and small” with a smile on her face. She is obviously incredibly happy with herself that she could help Sasuke like this without any interference. As soon as she offers the Apple to Sasuke again with a smile… and a blush, he smacks them away with a look of fury. Note that the offer is made head up and looking in the face, so something that shows a level of expectation and hope. Part of this is because of his thoughts of the time, about Naruto’s new found strength and his apparent lack thereof, and part may link back to a comment I made earlier about accepting this food may be construed as a sign of weakness. Sakura’s reaction is confusion and what seems to be some anger (IMO Page 17 – Panel 4). The next part of the scene we are treated to is in issue 174, Page 13 – Panels 4, 5, 6. The scene opens on Sasuke staring out the window and Sakura looking down at the Apples on the floor. A heated exchange follows with Sakura being left out except for some reactions which can be construed as confusion, anger, helplessness and desperation. The Apples are next seen in issue 175, Page 2 – Panel 6. In this scene they are smashed without thought or regard, No apology is offered or demanded. Sakura is left staring at the Apples and thinking about Sasuke’s cursed seal and Orochimaru (Page 3 – Panels 1-4). This is important for several reasons. One, it shows a failed feeding attempt at intimacy and the importance of the act. The fact that the last bit in the actual hospital room is focused on the smashed Apple on the floor means that the offer and subsequent denial was Important.

Then we don’t see another feeding scene until Issue 343. This starts on Page 5 – Panel 4. Sakura looks at Naruto’s attempts to feed himself with his weak hand and thinks about an earlier discussion between them. The look on her face is one of thoughtful sadness. The flashback we are treated to is a scene in the hospital where they are discussing getting closer to Sasuke together. She is healing him (again helping him with something, requiring close physical contact) and she remonstrates him over the fact that there is stuff that she can’t heal. While Naruto admits that he’s enjoying himself there, He does not respond to perceived lack of strength that Sasuke does. This greatly surprises Sakura and may stun her into realizing something. This flashback then switches to the present, where she scoots her chair closer and looks at him through half lidded eyes (IMO lusty). Again we see physical closeness necessary for feeding someone. Naruto is stunned by whats going on and then Sai intervenes…. Damn. Note that the last we see of Sakura in this issue is as she worriedly looks over at him as he has been told that he’s as strong/stronger than Kakashi. This means that he will put himself at greater risk and she doesn’t want that.

When we compare the scenes of Sakura/Sasuke and Sakura/Naruto, we see several key differences. The first is that the male party responds differently to the offer. Naruto is excited, if somewhat confused, by the offer and sees it as a welcome development. Sasuke sees it as nothing more than an annoyance which he carelessly swats away. Naruto is also noticeable despondent over being fed by Kakashi rather than Sakura whereas all Sasuke cares about is strength. During the scenes, we see flashbacks. One is of Sasuke remember how Naruto has grown and developed. Sakura’s is over her concern for Naruto and his statement that, effectively he enjoys her company and companionship (“We are getting closer to Sasuke together”) When we compare these two scenes we see that first scene is full of fail versus the second scene which is only part fail due to Sai’s and then Kakashi’s intervention.

Common responses
Sakura is only feeding Naruto because that’s what a friend would do
This could be true, but the context of the scene within the character’s mind and within the text itself argues against it. We have the other scenes which show an increased level of intimacy either created or attempted by the characters. We also have Naruto and Sakura’s reaction to his feeding. Naruto is surprised and excited while Sakura’s expression belies an underlying feeling (of smex or at least attraction). Then we have Naruto’s reaction when Sai steps in which is frustration and a bit of anger. He tells Sai tp “read the atmosphere” which means that if NARUTO picked up on it then the least we could do is notice it. He’s even more disappointed when Kakashi intervenes and starts to feed him.

Sakura is using Naruto to get Sasuke back
Holy hell, you are one cynical human being. This basically reduces Sakura to being one of the most abusive and usurious personalities with the Naruto-verse. This statement puts her on a level with Orochimaru and Madara. In fact, if this were true I would expect her to be the big bad not Madara.

Edited: For clarity and formatting

Edited by Endros, 09 July 2008 - 10:03 PM.


#1222 catsi563

catsi563

    catsitastrophe

  • Legendary Ninja
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,199 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Sneaking behind the orange ninja
  • Interests:Naruto, Sakura, NaruSaku, pizza, dragons, tigers, wolves, cats, Slaying Ebil dragon windmill thingies, the moon, the ocean.

Posted 09 July 2008 - 01:40 AM

Not bad well put together and very concise.

It actually egts tot he root of a lot of the team 7 arguments relaly. Also the Sai kakashi interruption is not as much Fail as you might think.

In point of fact if you understand the context of the interruption being in the staple of a comic interruption of romantic moments that is common in Shonen and other manga then the interruption of Sai and Kakashi in this moment is actually very signifigant.

And to cover the argument of Interuption on the SasuSaku side. Remeber that the interuption of most romantic scenes is always by an outside source, and is always comical in nature.

in the sasuke case this was an intentional and angry and very serious scene. full of angst, drama, and danger for the three of them.
My dear you deserve a great wizard, but im afraid you'll have to settle for services of a second rate pick pocket - Smendrick The Last Unicorn

..(^)> PENGUIN!!!!
C(...)D
..m.m

Training with a sannin 2 1/2 years

new pair of gloves 20 ryou

the look on your best friend, and former sensei's face's when you cause a small earth quake. Princeless

Catsis Fan Fiction

#1223 Kyuudaime

Kyuudaime

    Missing-nin

  • Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan
  • Interests:Working out, manga, video games, scuba diving

Posted 09 July 2008 - 02:07 AM

My god Endros.....it's like you read my mind and pieced things together.

#1224 Endros

Endros

    Academy Student

  • Academy Student
  • Pip
  • 35 posts

Posted 09 July 2008 - 02:59 AM

True, I called it fail because if you look at it from a pro Naruto/Sakura POV it is... kinda (nothing happened and nothing was absolutely confirmed). This particular essay was only to analyze the specifics of the feeding, NOT the specifics of anime cliches. I'll get to that one eventually.


Oh, Note: Sakura as shown in the manga DOES NOT know that the FRS can stop Naruto's ability to draw chakra out. She was not present when Tsunade said this to Kakashi and Yamato. So no one can use this as an example of her not caring

Edited by Endros, 09 July 2008 - 03:54 AM.


#1225 Kyuudaime

Kyuudaime

    Missing-nin

  • Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan
  • Interests:Working out, manga, video games, scuba diving

Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:51 AM

You're quite observant, I must admire you happy.gif

#1226 Endros

Endros

    Academy Student

  • Academy Student
  • Pip
  • 35 posts

Posted 09 July 2008 - 01:37 PM

The fundamental flaw/failing/unknown of this argument is that we do not know how Sakura will respond when Sasuke finally does realize he needs others. In short, we don't know whether she'll continue down the path with Naruto or go back with Sasuke.

Also, This thought just hit me in the car on the way to work... By feeding someone you are acknowledging that you want and need them within your world. You are effectively providing them with one of the things needed to keep living. This seems to me to be a bit of the will of fire boiled down into an everyday occurrence.

#1227 Kyuudaime

Kyuudaime

    Missing-nin

  • Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan
  • Interests:Working out, manga, video games, scuba diving

Posted 09 July 2008 - 06:08 PM

QUOTE (Endros @ Jul 9 2008, 01:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The fundamental flaw/failing/unknown of this argument is that we do not know how Sakura will respond when Sasuke finally does realize he needs others. In short, we don't know whether she'll continue down the path with Naruto or go back with Sasuke.

Also, This thought just hit me in the car on the way to work... By feeding someone you are acknowledging that you want and need them within your world. You are effectively providing them with one of the things needed to keep living. This seems to me to be a bit of the will of fire boiled down into an everyday occurrence.

I have to disagree there, Sasuke may not ever realize that he needs others, he's practically an emotionally scarred a-hole who's socially stupid, and I don't see him coming back to Konoha considering what he's gonna do.

#1228 Endros

Endros

    Academy Student

  • Academy Student
  • Pip
  • 35 posts

Posted 09 July 2008 - 07:26 PM

The structure of the Manga and story is such that he'll be redeemed (although he may die following redemption). If not then Team 7 just becomes another Sannin in truth not a Sannin 2.0: the win version.

Naruto won't become Hokage ("How can I be Hokage if I can't even save my friend") and Sakura will most likely remain in limbo. Ultimately, Naruto/Sakura is hindered by the lack of Sasuke because Naruto is just a little too honest/honorable to make a move on Sakura while he thinks she still likes Sasuke for them to get a relationship. Add in the fact that it will seem like Naruto would be a consolation prize rather than her first choice for a partner because Sasuke never came back and we get a wholly unsatisfying ending.

Edited by Endros, 09 July 2008 - 07:28 PM.


#1229 Kyuudaime

Kyuudaime

    Missing-nin

  • Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan
  • Interests:Working out, manga, video games, scuba diving

Posted 09 July 2008 - 07:37 PM

I can see the possibility of Sasuke's death following redemption, that's the only way I can see it happening.

Either way, whatever happens happens, and we can't really predict the outcome, if Sasuke gets Ino, Naruto gets Temari, and Sakura gets shino then whatever.

My point is that I can see Sasuke becoming a tragic hero, but nothing more.

#1230 Endros

Endros

    Academy Student

  • Academy Student
  • Pip
  • 35 posts

Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:18 PM

I'll admit that he'll never become someone who has a good existence within the manga. He's made far too many poor decisions for that to happen (which is one of the reasons why his character annoys me so damned much), but I can't see the character not being redeemed even with the darker tone that the series has taken recently.

Edited by Endros, 09 July 2008 - 08:21 PM.


#1231 PhantomNinja

PhantomNinja

    Crazy little brunette

  • Chakra Tree Climber
  • PipPip
  • 270 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:drawing, reading, writting, cooking... (i have a lot of 'ings')

Posted 04 September 2008 - 12:35 AM

Endros...

ZOMGIOSH!! You're intelligence blows me away.



#1232 Hopestar

Hopestar

    Elite Teacher

  • Elite Teacher
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,178 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Boston, MA
  • Interests:Food: Asian (specifically Japanese)
    Religion: Christian
    Sports: Golf, Tennis, Rowing/Crew
    Hobbies: Finance, Politics, Books, Fine dining, video games
    Music: Rock

Posted 04 September 2008 - 04:43 AM

I'm surprise this forum is still alive consider the decrease NS we've receive this year (damn you Kishi).
[FONT=Times][SIZE=7][COLOR=blue]
Let light be our guide towards victory
Whenever there's despair there's a darkness, whenever there's hope there's a light and it's up to us to bring in that light.

#1233 Endros

Endros

    Academy Student

  • Academy Student
  • Pip
  • 35 posts

Posted 12 September 2008 - 07:47 AM

Well, I don't really think it as a decrease because it's not there. More because of the change in focus of the Manga for the last 9 months or so. It'll get there eventually of that I have no doubts. Plus we have a Sakura and Kakashi heavy arc coming up, that should be good

I have left this thread for far too long. I promise this weekend I will put together an "essay". What topic would you like me look at?

Anime Cliches, The Sannin parallels, or Sakura's acceptance of Naruto (This will probably be very similar to Miz's work)

If you don't pick one, I'm probably gonna look at the Sannin stuff.

#1234 Kyuudaime

Kyuudaime

    Missing-nin

  • Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan
  • Interests:Working out, manga, video games, scuba diving

Posted 12 September 2008 - 03:18 PM

Anime cliches sounds good, I've seen enough Sannin parallels and Sakura's acceptance of Naruto that have accumulated many, many hours of reading, so I like the idea of anime cliches.

#1235 Endros

Endros

    Academy Student

  • Academy Student
  • Pip
  • 35 posts

Posted 12 September 2008 - 10:32 PM

Ok, gotcha. Because it's Anime Cliches, you all may get a two for one because I don't think there's enough there to truly satisfy the amount I want to write

#1236 KittenLou

KittenLou

    I'm a kitty NOM:3

  • Genin
  • PipPip
  • 175 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Abilene, Texas
  • Interests:Just recently, I've become rather engrossed in the history and various concepts British Literature offers from the Romantic period, but that could just be because of my professor lol. Of course anime and manga are a given. =) And shows dealing with &quot;otherworldly&quot; things, like Supernatural and Ghost Hunters and, uh...

Posted 13 September 2008 - 05:23 PM

Something that's been bugging me for a little while...


The first time I ever saw this image was in x_darkhope_x's NaruHina manifesto. I had gotten into a dispute over whether or not NaruHina was really that developed with some NaruHina fans in another forum and they led me to her. While I admit that she proved NaruHina was given some development in the manga, a few things about the essay bothered me. The image above is one of them. It's not because it's an image of Hinata with Naruto in the background or because she tries to bring evidence from a databook. It's because of the common misconception that the pendent around Hinata's neck contains the same isignia as the back of Naruto's jacket.

It's actually kind of funny what happens when you use the "zoom" tool. At first I thought the pattern was the Hyuuga crest, but then I zoomed in and said, "Oh, well would you look at that...? lol"
Also, just because Naruto is in the background doesn't 100% add to any NaruHina canon. For one, Hinata was a character created at last minute. Secondly, I believe Kishimoto stated he got a little carried away with the sketch. Sketches aren't supposed to contain a lot of detail, just enough to get a basic idea of what the character's outline is and their clothing design (great job on that, Kishimoto). Obviously, a LOT more was added than intended.

As an added note: Narut is looking up "towards the sun". I wonder if that's as much a coincidence as Naruto being in the sketch. sweatdrop.gif

This has probably already been pointed out before, but I tried searching the topic and didn't come up with anything. I know it's all painfully obvious and common knowledge, also, but I just wanted to get this off my chest. happy.gif

also known as Crackers

#1237 Kyuudaime

Kyuudaime

    Missing-nin

  • Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan
  • Interests:Working out, manga, video games, scuba diving

Posted 13 September 2008 - 05:31 PM

QUOTE (Kitten @ Sep 13 2008, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Something that's been bugging me for a little while...

The first time I ever saw this image was in x_darkhope_x's NaruHina manifesto. I had gotten into a dispute over whether or not NaruHina was really that developed with some NaruHina fans in another forum and they led me to her. While I admit that she proved NaruHina was given some development in the manga, a few things about the essay bothered me. The image above is one of them. It's not because it's an image of Hinata with Naruto in the background or because she tries to bring evidence from a databook. It's because of the common misconception that the pendent around Hinata's neck contains the same isignia as the back of Naruto's jacket.
It's actually kind of funny what happens when you use the "zoom" tool. At first I thought the pattern was the Hyuuga crest, but then I zoomed in and said, "Oh, well would you look at that...? lol"
Also, just because Naruto is in the background doesn't 100% add to any NaruHina canon. For one, Hinata was a character created at last minute. Secondly, I believe Kishimoto stated he got a little carried away with the sketch. Sketches aren't supposed to contain a lot of detail, just enough to get a basic idea of what the character's outline is and their clothing design (great job on that, Kishimoto). Obviously, a LOT more was added than intended.

As an added note: Narut is looking up "towards the sun". I wonder if that's as much a coincidence as Naruto being in the sketch. sweatdrop.gif

This has probably already been pointed out before, but I tried searching the topic and didn't come up with anything. I know it's all painfully obvious and common knowledge, also, but I just wanted to get this off my chest. happy.gif

I got a tad confused, what exactly were you getting off your chest?

#1238 KittenLou

KittenLou

    I'm a kitty NOM:3

  • Genin
  • PipPip
  • 175 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Abilene, Texas
  • Interests:Just recently, I've become rather engrossed in the history and various concepts British Literature offers from the Romantic period, but that could just be because of my professor lol. Of course anime and manga are a given. =) And shows dealing with &quot;otherworldly&quot; things, like Supernatural and Ghost Hunters and, uh...

Posted 13 September 2008 - 05:40 PM

QUOTE
the common misconception that the pendent around Hinata's neck contains the same isignia as the back of Naruto's jacket.


It's something that's been brought up in a few of the debates I've gotten into, and it just bothers me a lot. XD

also known as Crackers

#1239 Kyuudaime

Kyuudaime

    Missing-nin

  • Missing Nin
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Okinawa, Japan
  • Interests:Working out, manga, video games, scuba diving

Posted 13 September 2008 - 06:01 PM

QUOTE (Kitten @ Sep 13 2008, 01:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's something that's been brought up in a few of the debates I've gotten into, and it just bothers me a lot. XD

Oh, so they've been using this as "evidence" when it's not even the same symbol?

#1240 Daissuke

Daissuke

    Rookie

  • Rookie
  • Pip
  • 53 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Manga, cycling, sleeping/not sleeping, writing, sports in general, sarcastic humour...<br /><br />Favourite couple atm: Narusaku, o' course.

Posted 13 September 2008 - 06:04 PM

QUOTE (Kyuudaime @ Sep 13 2008, 07:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh, so they've been using this as "evidence" when it's not even the same symbol?


I've seen it used quite a few times sleep.gif
Liking developed manga pairings since 2001~




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users