1445 replies to this topic

[CloudMountainJuror]

I agree with nar123.
Especially the Gilgamesh part.
His arrogance cost him in fate, ubw, and hf.

 

His arrogance is fine. It's the presentation/execution of the scene itself that was problematic.

 

EDIT: Modified to better express what I was trying to say. Admittedly, I do a lot of post-editing.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 01 June 2015 - 01:00 AM.

[rocci]

 
His arrogance is fine. It's the presentation/execution of it in this scene that was problematic.

Why? He's king of hero.
He do as his wish. Until he realize it doesn't work, and usually it's too late.

@ryohki
Well he's Gil in love, Not mad fv Gil(ubw) or you're not final villain Gil(hf).

[Nar123]

 

I was saying it works as a standalone, not that it's meant to be.

 

 

 

It doesn't

To understand the ending properly you need F/SN (HF)  knowledge

 

 

Ok. I think I've found the core problem here that's causing us to diverge so much.

 

Archer is a direct parallel to Kiritsugu (or vice versa, considering the release dates of the source material). He came to the same conclusion: that saving everyone is impossible. Because of this, he was swallowed up in despair. He became who he is because he focused on the endgame. Shirou is not focusing on the endgame, but the process of saving people itself. This makes sense. On its own, this is a nice idea, and a good resolution to come to. It gives him inner peace and prevents him from ever feeling regret. I get that. I understand.

 

However, this ignores Archer's actions, and their repercussions. Up until now, he's basically been doing what Kiritsugu did: kill the few to save the many. Why is this a problem?

 

See here

 

The above scene speaks for itself. Even though the intention to save everyone is a great one, going about it the way Kiritsugu (and Archer) did only results in more death and feeds an endless cycle of death, an endless line of bodies stretching behind you. Brought to its furthest conclusion, it would result in the destruction of most of humanity because humanity itself thrives on conflict, thereby contradicting the very point of saving people in the first place. That's what the scene with Kiritsugu and the Grail expresses beautifully. It's one of my favorite scenes in fiction, to be honest.

 

Now, Archer executed all these people before he started regretting and was driven to despair, if I remember correctly. So at that time, he was still following current Shirou's ideals. Therefore, it's safe to assume that current Shirou will end up doing the same things, only he won't regret it like Archer does.

 

In other words, Shirou will overlook and disregard the larger repercussions of his actions, unlike Archer. Said repercussions being mass murder and death.

 

This is what's bothering me so much about Shirou's "answer". His answer gives him security within and prevents him from ever succumbing to despair and regret like Archer, sure. But there's nothing to suggest he won't do the same things Archer did before Archer succumbed to despair and regret. The only difference in the end seems to be that he'll be killing all these people and reaching towards this ideal, the ideal that Kiritsugu reached for, only he won't feel guilty about it and will happily do it. This would basically turn him into an ignorant death machine, a well-intentioned monster, causing widespread destruction and despair while turning a blind eye to the fact he's even causing it in the first place.

 

This comparison might feel out of nowhere, but it reminds me of communism. It's a great, beautiful idea on paper, but in reality it has severe issues. Shirou and UBW seems to suggest: "Hey, don't worry about those issues! The impact the endgame has on others doesn't matter! As long as you are happy and believe you're doing the right thing, despite the valid criticisms of others, then it'll all be OK!"

 

This is why I say Shirou is ignoring criticism in the long run. It's not because I didn't pay attention, or because I don't understand the inner peace that Shirou is aiming for. It's that he's valuing inner peace over real life consequences, and there's nothing presented to suggest he will ever acknowledge those real life consequences, not when he's disregarding them right now while staring at the very embodiment of them. Not Archer himself, but the long line of bodies stretching behind him.

 

 

 

 

Except that you're wrong

 

Archer is not really a parallel to Kiritsugu,while alive Shirou ( in every universe) in the first place never really followed this idea of killing few to save the many

What broke Archer was the time he spent as Counter Guardian, he felt his life was unfulfilled ( because he never changed in his grail war) and thus he made a pact with the world itself to keep saving people in after life, when he was betrayed and killed he died without regrets. He just came to regret after his time as CG made him lose his views and despair

 

Shirou isn't ignoring criticism, he accepted Archer's claim, it's just that while Archer lost focus  of why he began following those ideals and is drowining in regrets, Shirou hasn't and thus he is able to give an answer to Archer

 

Your interpretation mistake  was nothing but lack of knowledge of the lore, I guess

 

 

 

It isn't really nitpicking. It's just one of those minor details that makes an enormous impact. With GoB, it highlights the fact that he's not only preparing to battle, but that at that moment, he considers them worth taking his time to kill. Without GoB, the battle isn't built up and he doesn't contradict himself or suddenly change his mind. The very conclusion of the scene is the same, yes, but unlike the current version, this one would feel more natural and legitimate. The execution differs. On a grander scale, for example, just because a book and a movie have the same beginnings and endings, doesn't mean they are the same in the middle, that they're of the same quality, that they're executed the same, or that they have the same impact.

 

 

 

 

I understand why you didn't like the scene, but really that's just how Gil's character was estabilished 

 

If you're bothered by it I feel you're going to be bothered by a lot of things in the future of UBW

Edited by Nar123, 01 June 2015 - 01:08 AM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Why? He's king of hero.
He do as his wish. Until he realize it doesn't work, and usually it's too late.

 

I'll quote what I said previously about it in my last few posts. If you want the full context and explanations, you can check the posts themselves.

 

Quality characters =/= quality scenes. You can keep the character the same and the events the same as long as it flows naturally and well. This scene didn't. A scene making sense from a character standpoint does not justify sloppiness.

It wasn't bad execution when he didn't end the 4th grail war immediately because there were several mitigating factors, such as the fact that he was restrained by two separate masters and a general plan. Fate/Zero also did a great job of justifying logical inconsistencies with character flaws/traits (minus one or two bizarre instances).

 

This, on the other hand, called a ton of attention to him being able to end this in one fell swoop and had little to no convincing mitigating factors present to prevent him from doing so. Maybe it made sense for his character to walk out for such a trivial reason, but the way it was handled felt cheap. An easy alteration to the scene which would have fixed this would be to have him not take out Gate of Babylon at all. Have him talking with them, then show the ash/dirt/soot/whatever it was fall from above, then have him say "you know what, you can't stop me even if you try, so I'm not going to even bother considering killing you; you aren't worth getting dirty over" (obviously not word-for-word) and leave. There. Problem solved. Simple fix. The fight isn't built up too much and it flows a lot more naturally instead of ending abruptly and coming across as a cheap way to let our main characters limp out of there alive. Done. Don't have him consider them a threat by taking out Gate of Babylon, and then suddenly change his mind.

 

It isn't really nitpicking. It's just one of those minor details that makes an enormous impact. With GoB, it highlights the fact that he's not only preparing to battle, but that at that moment, he considers them worth taking his time to kill. Without GoB, the battle isn't built up and he doesn't contradict himself or suddenly change his mind. The very conclusion of the scene is the same, yes, but unlike the current version, this one would feel more natural and legitimate. The execution differs. On a grander scale, for example, just because a book and a movie have the same beginnings and endings, doesn't mean they are the same in the middle, that they're of the same quality, that they're executed the same, or that they have the same impact.

 

(GoB = Gate of Babylon, for clarification)

 

It doesn't

To understand the ending properly you need F/SN (HF)  knowledge

 

Not really. I understood it just fine, as did practically everyone I've seen who watched Fate/Zero without previous Fate exposure. Some minor confusing things like names came up, but the vast majority of what happened was clear as day, or can be interpreted just fine. The point of the story came across clear as day. As a standalone series, what Zero presents at its conclusion is: the Grail could not attain Kiritsugu's wish in a manner outside of Kiritsugu's comprehension. So, as a result, the only option available was humanity's eradication. Kiritsugu realized he'd royally screwed up and couldn't do that, so he refused the Grail and ordered Saber to destroy it. She did so, and as a result, the Grail "spilled" over and destroyed an enormous chunk of the nearby city. Gilgamesh was doused in it, which gave him incarnation, and Kirei was revived as a walking corpse of sorts. This is all fully understandable from watching F/Z without having any previous exposure to Fate.

Except that you're wrong

 

Archer is not really a parallel to Kiritsugu,while alive Shirou ( in every universe) in the first place never really followed this idea of killing few to save the many

What broke Archer was the time he spent as Counter Guardian, he felt his life was unfulfilledthus he made a pact with the world itself to keep saving people in after life, when he was betrayed and killed he died without regrets. He just came to regret after his time as CG made him lose his views and despair

 

Shirou isn't ignoring criticism, he accepted Archer's claim, it's just that while Archer lost focus  of why he began following those ideals and is drowining in regrets, Shirou hasn't and thus he is able to give an answer to Archer

 

Your interpretation mistake  was nothing but lack of knowledge of the lore, I guess

 

"Archer is not really a parallel to Kiritsugu"

http://zacrathedemon5.tumblr.com/post/119132026640/dracoflarex-emiyas-and-ideals

Going by how the material was presented, even if their ideals weren't exactly the same, how is he not? What he had to do as a Counter Guardian was basically what Kiritsugu did for a living. The visuals of Archer's slaughters and Kiritsugu's slaughters are strongly reminiscent of each other. His time as a Counter Guardian is what drove him to regret, like you said. And that's doing what Kiritsugu did, more or less. Even if his ideals weren't exactly the same as Kiritsugu's, his actions as a Counter Guardian were. And his actions are what matter here, are what mattered in my post. Not his ideals. His actions, and their effects on others. The widespread death in which they result, in some kind of an attempt to save the many by sacrificing the few.

 

"Shirou isn't ignoring criticism, he accepted Archer's claim, it's just that while Archer lost focus  of why he began following those ideals and is drowining in regrets, Shirou hasn't and thus he is able to give an answer to Archer"

You're missing my point. If Shirou accepted what Archer has done, has physically done, and decided to run with his ideals anyways - knowing what actions they lead him to do down the line (not the ideals, the actions and repercussions of said actions themselves), and has not expressed any plans for altering that outcome (again, focused on his actions, not his ideals) - then he is ignoring the consequences of what he's doing, plain and simple, despite attaining inner peace over it. If his ideals stay the same and he doesn't regret anything he will do, then the future actions he will take as a Counter Guardian will implicitly remain the same. Because, like we established, Archer did not succumb to regret until after his time spent as a Counter Guardian. I guess, by "ignoring criticism", i mean that he's hearing the negative consequences, but is doing nothing to correct or alter them. At least, we don't know he is, as the series has done nothing to suggest it. And that's a problem, as it makes this supposedly triumphant moment ring darkly hollow.

 

"Your interpretation mistake  was nothing but lack of knowledge of the lore, I guess"

The lore should not matter here. If you need to cite the source material to make sense of what's happening in the adaptation, then the adaptation has failed to do its job.

I understand why you didn't like the scene, but really that's just how Gil's character was estabilished 

 

If you're bothered by it I feel you're going to be bothered by a lot of things in the future of UBW

 

Let me clarify further: my issues with the scene have absolutely nothing to do with Gilgamesh's character. It is entirely to do with the basic construction of the scene.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 01 June 2015 - 01:53 AM.

[Nar123]

 

 

 

Not really. I understood it just fine, as did practically everyone I've seen who watched Fate/Zero without previous Fate exposure. Some minor confusing things like names came up, but the vast majority of what happened was clear as day, or can be interpreted just fine. The point of the story came across clear as day. As a standalone series, what Zero presents at its conclusion is: the Grail could not attain Kiritsugu's wish in a manner outside of Kiritsugu's comprehension. So, as a result, the only option available was humanity's eradication. Kiritsugu realized he'd royally screwed up and couldn't do that, so he refused the Grail and ordered Saber to destroy it. She did so, and as a result, the Grail "spilled" over and destroyed an enormous chunk of the nearby city. Gilgamesh was doused in it, which gave him incarnation, and Kirei was revived as a walking corpse of sorts. This is all fully understandable from watching F/Z without having any previous exposure to Fate.

 

 

Not really, you didn't. Trust me

Wait for HF

 

Did you really think the content just spilled over because of Saber attack? Well...

 

"Archer is not really a parallel to Kiritsugu"

http://zacrathedemon5.tumblr.com/post/119132026640/dracoflarex-emiyas-and-ideals

Going by how the material was presented, even if their ideals weren't exactly the same, how is he not? What he had to do as a Counter Guardian was basically what Kiritsugu did for a living. The visuals of Archer's slaughters and Kiritsugu's slaughters are strongly reminiscent of each other. His time as a Counter Guardian is what drove him to regret, like you said. And that's doing what Kiritsugu did, more or less. Even if his ideals weren't exactly the same as Kiritsugu's, his actions as a Counter Guardian were. And his actions are what matter here, are what mattered in my post. Not his ideals. His actions, and their effects on others. The widespread death in which they result, in some kind of an attempt to save the many by sacrificing the few.

 

I expressed myself poorly, he is some kind of parallel to Kiritsugu, but that is only due to his actions as Counter Guardian not in his physical life

Do you understand what a CG is? It's an individual who made a contract with the world in exchange for something

 

Archer only came to regret the way he led his life due to the things he had to do as CG, that is after he died. He didn't come to regret his ideals until that

 

 

 

"Shirou isn't ignoring criticism, he accepted Archer's claim, it's just that while Archer lost focus  of why he began following those ideals and is drowining in regrets, Shirou hasn't and thus he is able to give an answer to Archer"

You're missing my point. If Shirou accepted what Archer has done, has physically done, and decided to run with his ideals anyways - knowing what actions they lead him to do down the line (not the ideals, the actions and repercussions of said actions themselves), and has not expressed any plans for altering that outcome (again, focused on his actions, not his ideals) - then he is ignoring the consequences of what he's doing, plain and simple, despite attaining inner peace over it. If his ideals stay the same and he doesn't regret anything he will do, then the future actions he will take as a Counter Guardian will implicitly remain the same. Because, like we established, Archer did not succumb to regret until after his time spent as a Counter Guardian. I guess, by "ignoring criticism", i mean that he's hearing the negative consequences, but is doing nothing to correct or alter them. At least, we don't know he is, as the series has done nothing to suggest it. And that's a problem, as it makes this supposedly triumphant moment ring darkly hollow.

 

 

-Archer physical life was without regrets

-He became regretful after his time acting as CG 

-Archer became CG because he thought of his impossible ideal as some kind of goal ( that is because he never changed during his own holy grail war) , so he made a contract with the world and was faced with the same thing Kiritsugu was faced

- UBW Shirou won't become CG in first place ( he won't become Archer) because of the way he sees his ideals, he values the journey instead of the goal, he will pursue his ideal and save as many as he can because that's a beautiful way to live in his opinion but he won't let that fictate his entire life as a goal

-Shirou's life won't go exactly like Archer's because of others factors which I won't talk now because spoilers 

 

 

 

 

 

"Your interpretation mistake  was nothing but lack of knowledge of the lore, I guess"

The lore should not matter here. If you need to cite the source material to make sense of what's happening in the adaptation, then the adaptation has failed to do its job.

 

 

 

 

 

I guess I expressed myself in a wrong manner again...

they referenced and said how Archer's life went in the anime too, I guess you just didn't pay attention

 

 

 

Let me clarify further: my issues with the scene have absolutely nothing to do with Gilgamesh's character. It is entirely to do with the basic construction of the scene.

 

 

The construct of a scene relies on the characters that were in it, considering this Gil's scene in this ep made completely sense

 

 IMO this complaint of yours to me is just a minor nitpick, as I said Gil's arrogance is one of his character traits, and as such the scene works, GoB activation is irrelevant because Gil decides not to kill them due to the fact that soot was going to fall all over his clothes and he considers his clothes status above some mongrels he could kill at any time

It's kind of funny because this implies that even in death, Lancer managed to save them somehow 

Edited by Nar123, 01 June 2015 - 03:12 AM.

[RyohkiFan]

This be long...lol

[trang95]

This be long...lol

Reminds me of the comment section in animenewsnetwork, lol.

[CloudMountainJuror]

EDIT: Ok, I don't know what happened with the code in this post, but I can't for the life of me figure out how to edit it so that the quotes work properly, so I just italicized all of your quoted text. There's some gray space and different text sized spaces that seem to be screwing it all up, and I don't know how to fix it.

 

 

Not really, you didn't. Trust me

Wait for HF

 

Did you really think the content just spilled over because of Saber attack? Well...

 

It makes sense that way on its own, without any external context. That's all it needs to do to work as a standalone series. So, it fits the requirement just fine. It doesn't need any of the other Fate material because its ending makes its own sense, even if its meaning is altered by external material.

 

 

 

-Archer physical life was without regrets

-He became regretful after his time acting as CG 

-Archer became CG because he thought of his impossible ideal as some kind of goal ( that is because he never changed during his own holy grail war) , so he made a contract with the world and was faced with the same thing Kiritsugu was faced

- UBW Shirou won't become CG in first place ( he won't become Archer) because of the way he sees his ideals, he values the journey instead of the goal, he will pursue his ideal and save as many as he can because that's a beautiful way to live in his opinion but he won't let that fictate his entire life as a goal

-Shirou's life won't go exactly like Archer's because of others factors which I won't talk now because spoilers 

 

Ok, now that makes sense, at least. Now, whether it was specifically expressed that Archer became as CG because he viewed his ideal as a kind of goal, or not? For that, I'd have to rewatch the explanation. Which, I probably will eventually, after the blurays are released. For now, I concede this point. Thank you for clearing this up.

 

I guess I expressed myself in a wrong manner again...

they referenced and said how Archer's life went in the anime too, I guess you just didn't pay attention

 

 

In my defense, I did try my best. I really, really wanted to like this series.

 

 

The construct of a scene relies on the characters that were in it, considering this Gil's scene in this ep made completely sense

 

 IMO this complaint of yours to me is just a minor nitpick, as I said Gil's arrogance is one of his character traits, and as such the scene works, GoB activation is irrelevant because Gil decides not to kill them due to the fact that soot was going to fall all over his clothes and he considers his clothes status above some mongrels he could kill at any time

It's kind of funny because this implies that even in death, Lancer managed to save them somehow 

 

 

"The construct of a scene relies on the characters that were in it"

 

No. No. That is not what the entirety of a scene consists of. Not at all. There's dialogue, actual events on-screen, camera angles, animation, pacing, etc.

 

As it is, I've already clearly expressed my thoughts on the scene, and I don't think I can go any further in depth here. Just...no. There's a lot more to a scene than just character. An insane amount more. And that's what I'm drawing from here.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 01 June 2015 - 04:03 AM.

[Nar123]

 

It makes sense that way on its own, without any external context. That's all it needs to do to work as a standalone series. So, it fits the requirement just fine. It doesn't need any of the other Fate material because its ending makes its own sense, even if its meaning is altered by external material.

 

 

 

You think you understood what happened but you didn't, really 

 

There is a reason why so many F/Z watchers were put off with the ending ( not understanding it) back then

 

 

 

-Archer physical life was without regrets

-He became regretful after his time acting as CG 

-Archer became CG because he thought of his impossible ideal as some kind of goal ( that is because he never changed during his own holy grail war) , so he made a contract with the world and was faced with the same thing Kiritsugu was faced

- UBW Shirou won't become CG in first place ( he won't become Archer) because of the way he sees his ideals, he values the journey instead of the goal, he will pursue his ideal and save as many as he can because that's a beautiful way to live in his opinion but he won't let that fictate his entire life as a goal

-Shirou's life won't go exactly like Archer's because of others factors which I won't talk now because spoilers 

 

Ok, now that makes sense, at least. Now, whether it was specifically expressed that Archer became as CG because he viewed his ideal as a kind of goal, or not? For that, I'd have to rewatch the explanation. Which, I probably will eventually, after the blurays are released. For now, I concede this point. Thank you for clearing this up.

 

 

 

No problem

 

 

 

 

 

 I guess I expressed myself in a wrong manner again...

they referenced and said how Archer's life went in the anime too, I guess you just didn't pay attention

 

 

In my defense, I did try my best. I really, really wanted to like this series.

 

 

 

 

You would probably like more if you had seen Fate --> UBW---> HF ( the intended order)

I mean, UBW is just one third of F/SN and it's even the middle part, it loses a bit of it's impact if you did not read Fate before

 

About the routes individually you will probably come to like HF more, it reveals more plot points and you will probably really like the way Shirou is developed

 

 

 

 

 

 

The construct of a scene relies on the characters that were in it, considering this Gil's scene in this ep made completely sense

 

 IMO this complaint of yours to me is just a minor nitpick, as I said Gil's arrogance is one of his character traits, and as such the scene works, GoB activation is irrelevant because Gil decides not to kill them due to the fact that soot was going to fall all over his clothes and he considers his clothes status above some mongrels he could kill at any time

It's kind of funny because this implies that even in death, Lancer managed to save them somehow 

 

 

"The construct of a scene relies on the characters that were in it"

 

No. No. That is not what the entirety of a scene consists of. Not at all. There's dialogue, actual events on-screen, camera angles, animation, pacing, etc.

 

As it is, I've already clearly expressed my thoughts on the scene, and I don't think I can go any further in depth here. Just...no. There's a lot more to a scene than just character. An insane amount more. And that's what I'm drawing from here.

 

 

 

I did not say entirely though

 

And I retain my opinion, you're free to retain yours, but m8 that's just how Gil is, you will probably be bothered by a lot more of scenes in the future if you can't grasp his character

Edited by Nar123, 01 June 2015 - 05:30 AM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

 

You think you understood what happened but you didn't, really 

 

There is a reason why so many F/Z watchers were put off with the ending ( not understanding it) back then

 

I understand what the Fate/Zero series presented to me. And what it presented to me was an ending with its own internal logic and implications. If you look at Fate/Zero as being connected to nothing, as a completely standalone series with no franchise behind it, there is still sense to its ending. If you don't follow what I'm saying, then I guess there's no other way I can explain it.

You would probably like more if you had seen Fate --> UBW---> HF ( the intended order)

I mean, UBW is just one third of F/SN and it's even the middle part, it loses a bit of it's impact if you did not read Fate before

 

About the routes individually you will probably come to like HF more, it reveals more plot points and you will probably really like the way Shirou is developed

 

It's a shame that Fate doesn't have a proper anime adaptation; otherwise, I may have experienced it that way. As it is, though, I'm forced to go on what exists. That leaves me with Fate/Zero and UBW.

 

I know I will like one thing for sure more about HF.

 

Kirei.

 

All of the Kirei.

I did not say entirely though

 

And I retain my opinion, you're free to retain yours, but m8 that's just how Gil is, you will probably be bothered by a lot more of scenes in the future if you can't grasp his character

 

You didn't, but that's how it came across. "The construct of a scene" has an absolute, general, all-encompassing sound to it.

 

I've tried to make it painfully clear that I do understand his character (at least, from what's been presented in Fate/Zero and in this so far). I grasp his character just fine. His character was not what bothered me.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 01 June 2015 - 06:21 AM.

[Nar123]

 

I understand what the Fate/Zero series presented to me. And what it presented to me was an ending with its own internal logic and implications. If you look at Fate/Zero as being connected to nothing, as a completely standalone series with no franchise behind it, there is still sense to its ending. If you don't follow what I'm saying, then I guess there's no other way I can explain it.

 

 

The problem is that

F/Z doesn't act as a standalone because it was made as a prequel to F/SN, saying it can be a standalone is the same as saying Star wars prequel trilogy can be a standalone trilogy

If we try to consider F/Z a standalone, it will ultimately be an unfufilling anjd incomplete story because the ending pratically screams "sequel " we not only have a great disaster but two of the major antagonists are up and about, together with a whole hint that the story isn't over yet, there's the whole mystery about the grail, etc 

Just imagine if there was only the Star wars prequel trilogy, the story would've ended with Darth Vader and the emperor looking the construction of the ultimate death weapon while a new hope appears in the form of the baby of the fallen Jedi knight...doesn't this scream unfulfilling and incomplete to you? F/Z would be the same thing

 

 

 

 

 

You didn't, but that's how it came across. "The construct of a scene" has an absolute, general, all-encompassing sound to it.

 

I've tried to make it painfully clear that I do understand his character (at least, from what's been presented in Fate/Zero and in this so far). I grasp his character just fine. His character was not what bothered me.

 

Yeah and I already said I'm through of this discussion with you, obviously we have different views of the scene 

[CloudMountainJuror]

If we try to consider F/Z a standalone, it will ultimately be an unfufilling anjd incomplete story because the ending pratically screams "sequel " we not only have a great disaster but two of the major antagonists are up and about, together with a whole hint that the story isn't over yet, there's the whole mystery about the grail, etc 

 

Great disaster? How does that inherently tease a sequel? It works just fine as a concluding element, especially considering how it affects Kiritsugu's and Kirei's character arcs. It's absolutely essential for both.

 

Mystery about the grail? What mystery? Again, if we look at F/Z as a standalone, I've already explained a perfectly acceptable interpretation of what the ending with the grail signified. If F/Z is being looked at as unattached to any franchise or to any outside material (including F/SN), then given what's presented at the end, there is little to no mystery about the grail left. It's corrupt and not the perfect wish-granted that many thought it to be. The corrupt grail reinforces that there is this inescapable reality, that something as big and idealistic as world peace can't just be wished for, that it's simply not feasible. This serves the theme of a harsh, cruel world, of good intentions leading to suffering (Saber, Lancer, Kiritsugu, etc.) while bad intentions are more naturally rewarded (Kirei, Gilgamesh, and hell, Caster and Ryuunosuke both had the most peaceful, joyful deaths of the entire cast; if that doesn't send a message, I don't know what does). The grail as it is in F/Z sends a clear thematic message with barely any mystery needed to interpret.

 

The two major antagonists being alive? Admittedly a better point, but even so, it still works thematically (see my mentioning of them in the paragraph about the grail above).

 

As for Shirou's, Rin's, and Sakura's presence in the stories: Shirou's existence is justifiable as closure for Kiritsugu's story. Sakura's presence is justifiable as being essential for Kariya's (and, by extension, Kirei's) stories/arcs. And if Rin wasn't in the story, then the plot with the Tohsakas and Matous would not have nearly as much weight or substance; neither would Kirei killing Tokiomi. Even without a sequel, the three kids have clear purpose in Fate/Zero.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 02 June 2015 - 02:40 AM.

[Nar123]

 

Great disaster? How does that inherently tease a sequel? It works just fine as a concluding element, especially considering how it affects Kiritsugu's and Kirei's character arcs. It's absolutely essential for both.

 

Mystery about the grail? What mystery? Again, if we look at F/Z as a standalone, I've already explained a perfectly acceptable interpretation of what the ending with the grail signified. If F/Z is being looked at as unattached to any franchise or to any outside material (including F/SN), then given what's presented at the end, there is little to no mystery about the grail left. It's corrupt and not the perfect wish-granted that many thought it to be. The corrupt grail reinforces that there is this inescapable reality, that something as big and idealistic as world peace can't just be wished for, that it's simply not feasible. This serves the theme of a harsh, cruel world, of good intentions leading to suffering (Saber, Lancer, Kiritsugu, etc.) while bad intentions are more naturally rewarded (Kirei, Gilgamesh, and hell, Caster and Ryuunosuke both had the most peaceful, joyful deaths of the entire cast; if that doesn't send a message, I don't know what does). The grail as it is in F/Z sends a clear thematic message with barely any mystery needed to interpret.

 

The two major antagonists being alive? Admittedly a good point, but even so, it still works thematically (see my mentioning of them in the paragraph about the grail above).

 

As for Shirou's, Rin's, and Sakura's presence in the stories: Shirou's existence is justifiable as closure for Kiritsugu's story. Sakura's presence is justifiable as being essential for Kariya's (and, by extension, Kirei's) stories/arcs. And if Rin wasn't in the story, then the plot with the Tohsakas and Matous would not have nearly as much weight or substance; neither would Kirei killing Tokiomi. Even without a sequel, the three kids have clear purpose in Fate/Zero.

 

-Does F/Z explains why the grail is like that? Why it is corrupted? It doesn't

Do you take this only for granted? Do you really think mages would be stupid enough to create an artefact of mass destruction like that who doesn't even grant wishes properly? C'mon 

I'm not talking about what the corrupted grail means in the story itself, but it does bring a mystery that it's never explained in F/Z

 

-The great disaster teases a sequel because it brings up a new character, that directly teases a sequel by saying " I will become a hero

in your place" to Kiritsugu

 

-Kirei and Gil alive = Darth Vader and the emperor alive in the "last" star wars movie, building a new death weapon 

Do you really thought it was fine if it ended like that? 

 

-Shirou's existence already warrants a sequel, he inherits the ideals Kiritsugu failed to uphold, however will he fail too? These kind of questions would pop up if F/Z was a standalone.

Sakura's purpose is being Zouken's ( the Matou's elder) pawn in the future, in the end we already see him plotting. If F/Z was a standalone would it really be okay to end with the fact that Zouken is still alive, torturing a young girl for his future dark ambitions? And what's his ambitions? What does he plans to do ?

F/Z as standalone = so many questions

so many questions = not a good standalone XD

 

So there, really

You can't consider F/Z a standalone when it was made with the idea that it's F/SN prequel

You can't fully understand F/Z without F/SN

 

You didn't even addressed my Star Wars comparision for that matter...

Edited by Nar123, 02 June 2015 - 02:51 AM.

[rocci]

So dolphin anybody?

[Nar123]

So dolphin anybody?

Next episode

Edited by Nar123, 03 June 2015 - 05:09 AM.

[RyohkiFan]

[trang95]

So dolphin anybody?

Is this some kind of spoiler? B/c I have no clue what you're talking about

EDIT: Never mind. I get it now

Edited by trang95, 03 June 2015 - 07:09 AM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

 

-Does F/Z explains why the grail is like that? Why it is corrupted? It doesn't

Do you take this only for granted? Do you really think mages would be stupid enough to create an artefact of mass destruction like that who doesn't even grant wishes properly? C'mon 

I'm not talking about what the corrupted grail means in the story itself, but it does bring a mystery that it's never explained in F/Z

 

-The great disaster teases a sequel because it brings up a new character, that directly teases a sequel by saying " I will become a hero

in your place" to Kiritsugu

 

-Kirei and Gil alive = Darth Vader and the emperor alive in the "last" star wars movie, building a new death weapon 

Do you really thought it was fine if it ended like that? 

 

-Shirou's existence already warrants a sequel, he inherits the ideals Kiritsugu failed to uphold, however will he fail too? These kind of questions would pop up if F/Z was a standalone.

Sakura's purpose is being Zouken's ( the Matou's elder) pawn in the future, in the end we already see him plotting. If F/Z was a standalone would it really be okay to end with the fact that Zouken is still alive, torturing a young girl for his future dark ambitions? And what's his ambitions? What does he plans to do ?

F/Z as standalone = so many questions

so many questions = not a good standalone XD

 

So there, really

You can't consider F/Z a standalone when it was made with the idea that it's F/SN prequel

You can't fully understand F/Z without F/SN

 

You didn't even addressed my Star Wars comparision for that matter...

 

- Where is it said in Fate/Zero that the Grail was created by mages? Maybe it's my memory failing me, but I've seen the show two or three times now and I don't remember that detail ever being mentioned. It is possible I missed it, I suppose, considering how small a detail it is in comparison to everything else going on in the story. So, just in case I did:

 

Even if it's explicitly said in Fate/Zero that mages did create it, though, why is it an issue if the Grail is corrupt by its very nature, and that what everyone's been believing in and fighting for has just been held up on too high a pedestal? The "corruption", as presented by Fate/Zero and only Fate/Zero (I repeat: as presented by Fate/Zero and only Fate/Zero), is simply that it couldn't come up with a perfect solution to Kiritsugu's wish, that it entirely depended on his basis of knowledge, and that it immediately went to the darkest (yet most logical) solution. This line of cold, hard logic could simply be what the mages intended to produce with the Grail. Because really, the Grail technically works. I mean, for all intents and purposes, the Grail is 100% correct in the solution it came up with for Kiritsugu's wish. That would fulfill his wish, and it does so building off of Kiritsugu's knowledge. The Grail's decision is very computer-like, in a way, funnily enough.

 

In other words, as presented by Fate/Zero and only Fate/Zero, the Grail does successfully grant wishes. It just doesn't do it in a necessarily ethical or morally correct way, which is what many in pursuit of it seem to hope for. It's the "looking for paradise and finding it, but paradise is not what was promised or expected" kind of trope.

 

- Which serves as closure to Kiritsugu's story. The only reason you say it's sequel bait is because you're taking F/SN into account. When you shouldn't be. That's the entire point of this whole discussion: does F/Z work without F/SN? Since Shirou works as closure for Kiritsugu's story and is absolutely integral for his character arc, in this case, yes. It does. I addressed this in my previous post. Still, I will go into new further detail on this a bit further down in this post.

 

- The Star Wars comparison is invalid because they are two extremely different types of stories with two extremely different effectiveness in their execution. I didn't address your previous comparison because it was inherently flawed, and I didn't feel it needed addressing. Fate/Zero is well-written and heavy in well-expressed themes; the prequels are not, and don't stand their ground very well as it is, even without being thought of as standalone. And yes, this makes a huge difference as to whether they can effectively speak for themselves or not.

(If you want me to argue about the prequels, I'll save us both the time and just direct you to RedLetterMedia's in-depth reviews of the prequels. They address absolutely everything possible.)

I'm not arguing for the Star Wars prequels here. I'm arguing for Fate/Zero. You can't try and equate them when they are vastly different stories with vastly different intentions, tones, and quality of execution.

 

That being said, again: Kirei and Gilgamesh surviving works thematically with Fate/Zero. I don't see what is difficult to understand about this, unless you didn't understand Fate/Zero's thematic intentions. Which I'm positive you did. Even so, I already addressed this in my previous post, and you haven't debunked any of what I actually said about this. Instead, you went straight to the Star Wars prequel comparison again and used it in place of an actual argument.

 

- I'm actually extremely glad you brought this up. On the contrary, those are exactly the kinds of questions that should pop up when Fate/Zero is standalone. That's exactly the point. It leaves a large grey area of whether it's a good thing for Shirou to aim for that, or a bad thing considering all that's happened. That isn't something which needs explicit answering, it's a thematic question presented to the audience, asking about what's right and what's wrong, whether Kiritsugu has really saved this kid or not if he's put him on this path. Asking complex questions about choices and consequences like this is something intelligent entertainment tends to do.

 

Zouken doesn't need explicit addressing. He's just another embodiment of the cruelty in the world and, again, is needed for Kariya's storyline as it is. What does he plan to do in the next war? It doesn't matter. The story was about this specific war. We don't need to know what he's been planning for the following one. That is not a question which needs answering for this story's completion. And, like Kirei, Gilgamesh, Ryuunosuke, and Caster, Zouken basically got a happy ending in Fate/Zero. Further supports the themes.

 

Questions are not inherently a bad thing to leave open; it all depends on the kind of questions left open. It's basic storytelling. Intelligent entertainment gets you thinking about what you can draw from it, what it's trying to say. The Shirou thing is exactly this. Will he fail? Is Kiritsugu giving him an impossible objective? That's something to consider for what the story presents thematically. It is not a plothole: it's an important concluding element.

 

Hell, it even furthers the "those who pursue noble intentions will suffer" theme the series has. Again, basically every "villain" character got a happier ending, while almost all of the good characters didn't. Kiritsugu seems like he might have with Shirou...but has he really? Considering the previous examples, it's likely he hasn't, because Shirou will be aiming for a noble intention. Even so, this isn't explicitly stated or shown. It's instead left to the audience's interpretation. Because of this, it's a bittersweet yet intentionally uncertain ending (just to be clear, so you don't misinterpret this: the uncertainty with Shirou is kind of the point).

 

Honestly, it seems like you have F/SN a bit too ingrained in your thinking to really put it aside and truly think of what Zero is like as its own entity. A lot of the arguments you've made about this loops back to "but this was explained/important in F/SN, so by default that means it must need explaining when it's presented in F/Z". Which defeats the entire purpose.

So dolphin anybody?

 

Oh god... I don't know what they're going to do with this part. But any way, it's going to be interesting.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 03 June 2015 - 07:13 AM.

[trang95]

Next episode

It's all about the Mana transfer. What a cheap way for a visual novel to make sex scenes relevant to the plot

Edited by trang95, 03 June 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[rocci]

It's all about the Mana transfer. What a cheap way for a visual novel to make sex scenes relevant to the plot

There's for that.
But then, that's eroge for ya

Anyway, fate kaleid liner illya prisma is surprisingly good. Especially drei one.
But you must expect loli fanservice and brocon everywhere.