19441 replies to this topic

[Alessa]

So I compare you to the assistant and you call it a personal attack. You who said so yourself that it was cultural difference and that apparently you knew better because you see yourself higher than anyone else here and apparently to think the assistant was correct the whole time. So if the assistant is smarter than us to you, and I compare you to that assistant, then I guess that would mean what I gave was a compliment correct? Or at least according to the logic dictated by you and the assistant.

Hell, according to the "cultural difference" I am apparently madly in love with you and just trying to express how I feel, right? Either that or you find the assistant's bull even bigger than I do and that is why you take this all as a "personal attack."

But what do I know right? I am not "culturally aware" of any of it. Maybe I am giving a compliment and you don't know it or I could just be spitting hogwash trying to cover my tracks as to not sound as bad as it really is. Maybe I could blame you and saying you just read my post wrong. Do you see where I am getting? Word play is a powerful thing and I can manipulate it anyway I want to. It's not that hard and it's not that hard to insult you and make it seem like you're that stupid one with that simple word play.

All I have to do is say the right words and I could change from a villain to the victim in a matter of word play...quite cool, eh? To think you can play with people's emotions and make them feel insecure about how they see the world. You can read books on cultures or any of that nonsense, but unless you talk to people face to face, there is nothing you can learn in a book that you can see from just looking into someone's eyes.

Like I said a million times now, anyone can accept this if they want to and I really don't care, but don't expect me to accept that answer either. People talks of opinions, but they really don't know what it truly means to have a view. My view is that this world forgot something really important throughout history...or maybe they never had it. Maybe they just never understood it and all they see is some shallow shadow of what it really is. Afraid to look up and always standing in the shadow of it. Well, no more. I am not accepting it anymore and no amount of "cultural difference" can change that because love isn't limited by cultural differences.

I wonder if you can see it...prove me right or wrong?
 

My head exploded from reading your post. I don't know where all this is coming from. Persuading anyone or puting myself higher than anyone here was absolutely not how I felt writing that post. I felt sad and tired of all the nonsense that Kishi put us through and I was tired of trying to find answers, I was trying to present one possible answer to a simple question of why SS is so large in Japan.

I understand that you are more angry at the situation than you are at me, but this is so kittening rude and childish to project your overall pain onto other people's honest and politely said opinions! Are you trying to scream at NH\SS fans or Kishi's assistant while screaming at me? (After all they do use a similar argument sometimes.) Well, kitten off. I don't need to be hurt more by this fandom after being hurt so much by Kishi.

I almost feel sorry for sympathizing with all your recent posts that I read in different threads. Oh wait, no, I am not sorry, because I feel very much like you do, I am just sorry I was stupid enough to enter a conversation.

 

I will repeat:

There was nothing else to my post than a simple thought that "There has to be a better reason for SS to be the biggest kittening fandom in Japan other than people being stupid\immoral or Sasuke looking japanese\being hot.I do think that certain aspects of SS relationship are percieved differnetly by japanese fans. That is why I tried to warn us that some arguments might not work with them. They won't see the ammount of abuse we see.
It doesn't change that I don't accept this ending either. I think that NS objectively makes much more sense and that Kishi must have sold out. I also don't have any explanation why western fandom accepts SS."

 

EDIT: And yes,comparing a person to an assistant, who is bashed in this thread, is a personal attack. 

Edited by Alessa, 17 November 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[PhenixElite]

So murder attempts are seen romantic in other cultures?

[lupina]

So murder attempts are seen romantic in other cultures?

 

I think its more of a acceptance ... that such things do not automatically destroy the possibility of a future relationship.

But that's not a culture thing.

 

Desperate People and all over the world think like this ...

[Alessa]

So murder attempts are seen romantic in other cultures?

There are cultures, where a woman feels insulted if her husband doesn't have other wives or\and lovers. There are cultures where the most prosperous members of a tribe give up all their goods and become the poorest ones once a year and the biggest insult or punishment to them would be to deny them this act. In Japan a century ago it was ok to have an affair for a woman if the man she slept with covered his face with a handcachief, because "no face seen = no affair".  Murder attempt can be considered cruel, but the idea of a soul so hurt that it tries to cut its connections to the world can be seen in the act and can be considered romantic. Even more romantic would be if another person saw through this mask of violence. I am quite sure that Kishi and his assistants are honest in believing that they are writing Sakura as a strong woman when they are writing how her feelings to Sasuke remained despite of everything he has done. But imho.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

I am quite sure that Kishi and his assistants are honest in believing that they are writing Sakura as a strong woman when they are writing how her feelings to Sasuke remained despite of everything he has done. But imho.

Poor souls, those who will belive in that, because even manga showed that it's wrong.

[NS4Life]

What I think is bs is sakura wakes up after thinking sasuke stabbing her in the heart and wants to be with him. After she thought he did that, did she think he loves her?

I always thought this was sasuke story told through naruto's eyes. We know nothing about naruto's clans, but we know everything about sasuke's.

What about sakura saying a women heart changes and what about the gusty ninja?

It just makes sakura look bad and this is why people hate her due to kishi.

[James S Cassidy]

Then I guess this world needs a reminder of what it lost.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 17 November 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[NS4Life]

There are cultures, where a woman feels insulted if her husband doesn't have other wives or\and lovers. There are cultures where the most prosperous members of a tribe give up all their goods and become the poorest ones once a year and the biggest insult or punishment to them would be to deny them this act. In Japan a century ago it was ok to have an affair for a woman if the man she slept with covered his face with a handcachief, because "no face seen = no affair".  Murder attempt can be considered cruel, but the idea of a soul so hurt that it tries to cut its connections to the world can be seen in the act and can be considered romantic. Even more romantic would be if another person saw through this mask of violence. I am quite sure that Kishi and his assistants are honest in believing that they are writing Sakura as a strong woman when they are writing how her feelings to Sasuke remained despite of everything he has done. But imho.

How long has Japan been a democracy?

I strong would say no, that is enough.

We are talking about a crush.

[tricksie]

My head exploded from reading your post. I don't know where all this is coming from. Persuading anyone or puting myself higher than anyone here was absolutely not how I felt writing that post. I felt sad and tired of all the nonsense that Kishi put us through and I was tired of trying to find answers, I was trying to present one possible answer to a simple question of why SS is so large in Japan.

I understand that you are more angry at the situation than you are at me, but this is so f**king rude and childish to project your overall pain onto other people's honest and politely said opinions! Are you trying to scream at NH\SS fans or Kishi's assistant while screaming at me? (After all they do use a similar argument sometimes.) Well, f**k off. I don't need to be hurt more by this fandom after being hurt so much by Kishi.

I almost feel sorry for sympathizing with all your recent posts that I read in different threads. Oh wait, no, I am not sorry, because I feel very much like you do, I am just sorry I was stupid enough to enter a conversation.

 

I will repeat:

There was nothing else to my post than a simple thought that "There has to be a better reason for SS to be the biggest f**king fandom in Japan other than people being stupid\immoral or Sasuke looking japanese\being hot.I do think that certain aspects of SS relationship are percieved differnetly by japanese fans. That is why I tried to warn us that some arguments might not work with them. They won't see the ammount of abuse we see.
It doesn't change that I don't accept this ending either. I think that NS objectively makes much more sense and that Kishi must have sold out. I also don't have any explanation why western fandom accepts SS."

 

EDIT: And yes,comparing a person to an assistant, who is bashed in this thread, is a personal attack. 

 

Everybody...take a step back...calm down...count to ten...it's going to be okay.... *sings 'Let It Go'* I think everybody's feeling the tension of the moment. I swear I'll be so happy when this damn movie is over and done with.

 

Alessa, I agree that I think there are cultural differences at work here that are hard for non-Japanese readers like me to grasp. In fact, I'd been thinking about starting a separate thread to talk about it. Because I'm curious if my hunch is true. 

 

That SS and NH is less offensive to Japanese readers than non-Japanese because maybe withing Japanese storytelling/movies/media the passive long-suffering love-type being paired with the dark brooding hero-type is an acceptable thing. Maybe it's more of a traditional type of Japanese romance vs. a modern one.

 

You know what, instead of expounding here, maybe I will make a new thread about it. Because I'd like to discuss it, but I don't want to take away from this thread.

 

Anyway, everyone try to stay calm. These are stressful times, and its easy to lash out at our fandom. But we're the solution, not the problem.

[Alessa]

 

Everybody...take a step back...calm down...count to ten...it's going to be okay.... *sings 'Let It Go'* I think everybody's feeling the tension of the moment. I swear I'll be so happy when this damn movie is over and done with.

 

Alessa, I agree that I think there are cultural differences at work here that are hard for non-Japanese readers like me to grasp. In fact, I'd been thinking about starting a separate thread to talk about it. Because I'm curious if my hunch is true. 

 

That SS and NH is less offensive to Japanese readers than non-Japanese because maybe withing Japanese storytelling/movies/media the passive long-suffering love-type being paired with the dark brooding hero-type is an acceptable thing. Maybe it's more of a traditional type of Japanese romance vs. a modern one.

 

You know what, instead of expounding here, maybe I will make a new thread about it. Because I'd like to discuss it, but I don't want to take away from this thread.

 

Anyway, everyone try to stay calm. These are stressful times, and its easy to lash out at our fandom. But we're the solution, not the problem.

Nice idea! It is a fascinating topic to discuss. But I feel so tired of seeing people get angry when this topic is brought up and I am not sure it will go well. 

Edited by Alessa, 17 November 2014 - 01:49 PM.

[六道仙人]

the problem is that SS is the most popular hetero couple outside in japan too...

[PhenixElite]

There are cultures, where a woman feels insulted if her husband doesn't have other wives or\and lovers. There are cultures where the most prosperous members of a tribe give up all their goods and become the poorest ones once a year and the biggest insult or punishment to them would be to deny them this act. In Japan a century ago it was ok to have an affair for a woman if the man she slept with covered his face with a handcachief, because "no face seen = no affair".  Murder attempt can be considered cruel, but the idea of a soul so hurt that it tries to cut its connections to the world can be seen in the act and can be considered romantic. Even more romantic would be if another person saw through this mask of violence. I am quite sure that Kishi and his assistants are honest in believing that they are writing Sakura as a strong woman when they are writing how her feelings to Sasuke remained despite of everything he has done. But imho.

And one of these cultures counts in japan? Never heard that

[tricksie]

Nice idea! It is a fascinating topic to discuss. But I feel so tired of seeing people get angry when this topic is brought up and I am not sure it will go well. 

 

Not worried. If it brings about strong opinions, then it's worth talking about. As long as we can have fair and civil debate, and I think we can, it's worth a try! :)

[NarutoUzumaki01]

the problem is that SS is the most popular hetero couple outside in japan too...

LMAO, kids much, eh?

[Alessa]

 

Not worried. If it brings about strong opinions, then it's worth talking about. As long as we can have fair and civil debate, and I think we can, it's worth a try! :)

Well, please make sure you announce it in the most active threads if you open a new topic after all. Or just tell me, please. I seem to miss everything.  

[Lilac]

Kishimoto said that he didn't put much romance into the manga because it embarrassed him. Which means most of what we thought was romantic? It wasn't. I remember the long, drawn out posts. Beautiful as they were, they were reading too much into what was actually there. There was no hidden meanings. Naruto was a Shonen manga for children about bad guys having reasons to be bad guys and the MC never giving up on trying to understand them. Just like Kishimoto said. It was never a sweeping romance. I don't believe a man who was embarrassed/said it was too hard to write romance created a 'sweeping romance, hidden means, the underneath the underneath".

 

That? That was a happy accident. The thing about staying in an echo chamber is that you only see and hear what you like, and ignore the rest. Sakura was always going after Sasuke. Her feelings were ignored because we just assumed she'd get over it. She didn't. As for Naruto, now...I don't think he was all that in love with her. Every time Sasuke attempted to hurt Sakura, Naruto just sussed him and went on calling him his bestest friend ever. That's not how a man in love acts. I mean, look at the forehead scene. It was a comic relief/kind of sketchy moment on Naruto's part about tricking Sakura into thinking he was Sasuke to steal a kiss. The moment was not romantic. Narutoke compliments her forehead, she gets excited, he laughs and says no that's something Naruto would say, she gets depressed. Yet so many people thought she was in love with him for this...in hindsight, it makes zero sense. I think a lot of the Narusaku expectation came from fans overhyping moments, or reading too much into Kishimoto's writing.

[Elicit]

If there wasn't an intention to write romance why did NH and SS happen then? That would mean both were wrong about mostly everything.

Edited by Elicit, 17 November 2014 - 02:36 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

If there wasn't an intention to write romance why did NH and SS happen then?

..............I like green.

[PhenixElite]

Kishimoto said that he didn't put much romance into the manga because it embarrassed him. Which means most of what we thought was romantic? It wasn't. I remember the long, drawn out posts. Beautiful as they were, they were reading too much into what was actually there. There was no hidden meanings. Naruto was a Shonen manga for children about bad guys having reasons to be bad guys and the MC never giving up on trying to understand them. Just like Kishimoto said. It was never a sweeping romance. I don't believe a man who was embarrassed/said it was too hard to write romance created a 'sweeping romance, hidden means, the underneath the underneath".

 

That? That was a happy accident. The thing about staying in an echo chamber is that you only see and hear what you like, and ignore the rest. Sakura was always going after Sasuke. Her feelings were ignored because we just assumed she'd get over it. She didn't. As for Naruto, now...I don't think he was all that in love with her. Every time Sasuke attempted to hurt Sakura, Naruto just sussed him and went on calling him his bestest friend ever. That's not how a man in love acts. I mean, look at the forehead scene. It was a comic relief/kind of sketchy moment on Naruto's part about tricking Sakura into thinking he was Sasuke to steal a kiss. The moment was not romantic. Narutoke compliments her forehead, she gets excited, he laughs and says no that's something Naruto would say, she gets depressed. Yet so many people thought she was in love with him for this...in hindsight, it makes zero sense. I think a lot of the Narusaku expectation came from fans overhyping moments, or reading too much into Kishimoto's writing.

Long time since i laughed that hard

[Nar123]

Kishimoto said that he didn't put much romance into the manga because it embarrassed him. Which means most of what we thought was romantic? It wasn't. I remember the long, drawn out posts. Beautiful as they were, they were reading too much into what was actually there. There was no hidden meanings. Naruto was a Shonen manga for children about bad guys having reasons to be bad guys and the MC never giving up on trying to understand them. Just like Kishimoto said. It was never a sweeping romance. I don't believe a man who was embarrassed/said it was too hard to write romance created a 'sweeping romance, hidden means, the underneath the underneath".
 
That? That was a happy accident. The thing about staying in an echo chamber is that you only see and hear what you like, and ignore the rest. Sakura was always going after Sasuke. Her feelings were ignored because we just assumed she'd get over it. She didn't. As for Naruto, now...I don't think he was all that in love with her. Every time Sasuke attempted to hurt Sakura, Naruto just sussed him and went on calling him his bestest friend ever. That's not how a man in love acts. I mean, look at the forehead scene. It was a comic relief/kind of sketchy moment on Naruto's part about tricking Sakura into thinking he was Sasuke to steal a kiss. The moment was not romantic. Narutoke compliments her forehead, she gets excited, he laughs and says no that's something Naruto would say, she gets depressed. Yet so many people thought she was in love with him for this...in hindsight, it makes zero sense. I think a lot of the Narusaku expectation came from fans overhyping moments, or reading too much into Kishimoto's writing.

Dont think so, the NS moments are still there in the manga, its difficult to interpret naruto feelings for sakura as anything other than romantic both in part 1 and part 2, what happened is that he did the selfless thing and choose to not pursue her anymore.

Also databook 3 saying Sakura's feelings for Naruto were complicated, and Kishimoto himself saying "Sakura still loves sasuke but Naruto is close..."

Kishi obviously played the pairing war. In the end he just settled for NH/SS for marketing /popularity reasons

NS was the most developed though and could easily be the endgame without an asspull movie to explain how it happened

Edited by Nar123, 17 November 2014 - 02:39 PM.