First, F/Z is not a standalone, it's a prequel, it's supposed to be watched/read after F/SN
Kind like the Star wars movie series
I was saying it works as a standalone, not that it's meant to be.
- Archer exists because in some universe there is a Shirou that regretted his path, UBWShirou won't become Archer, his path won't be destructive because he won't regret his path. Archer puts value on the destination because his grail war events were events that made Shirou continue the way he was at prologue, it's an undiclosed route, all of the three routes make Shirou develop in different ways, so for different reasons all of the version of Shirou's we see in the three routes won't becom Archer in the future
UBWShirou puts value in the journey, for him just upholding these ideals each day is enough, there is literally 0 chance he will turn into Archer. He did not ignore criticism...didn't you watched? He accepted, however he just didn't let this criticism crush his beliefs, he kept a hold onto himself, Shirou was not proven wrong, Archer was... that was the whole point of the Answer, Archer drowned so much in regret that he forgot why he wanted to uphold those ideals in first place.
People chalk it up to dumb shonen because they simply dont understand, like you just proved you didn't :/
You're not supposed to relate to Shirou in first place, the guy is empty, the only way he feels worth of life is by saving people the same way Kiritsugu did with him, I won't spoil Fate or HF, but in UBW he surpasses this by acknowledging the fact that he is problematic, that his ideal is not even his, it's just that he won't stop doing because it's a beautiful thought, it's something that it's worth following, so if he ends up like Archer ( which he won"t) he won't have any regrets
Here is an analysis from a person who also only watched the anime
Ok. I think I've found the core problem here that's causing us to diverge so much.
Archer is a direct parallel to Kiritsugu (or vice versa, considering the release dates of the source material). He came to the same conclusion: that saving everyone is impossible. Because of this, he was swallowed up in despair. He became who he is because he focused on the endgame. Shirou is not focusing on the endgame, but the process of saving people itself. This makes sense. On its own, this is a nice idea, and a good resolution to come to. It gives him inner peace and prevents him from ever feeling regret. I get that. I understand.
However, this ignores Archer's actions, and their repercussions. Up until now, he's basically been doing what Kiritsugu did: kill the few to save the many. Why is this a problem?
The above scene speaks for itself. Even though the intention to save everyone is a great one, going about it the way Kiritsugu (and Archer) did only results in more death and feeds an endless cycle of death, an endless line of bodies stretching behind you. Brought to its furthest conclusion, it would result in the destruction of most of humanity because humanity itself thrives on conflict, thereby contradicting the very point of saving people in the first place. That's what the scene with Kiritsugu and the Grail expresses beautifully. It's one of my favorite scenes in fiction, to be honest.
Now, Archer executed all these people before he started regretting and was driven to despair, if I remember correctly. So at that time, he was still following current Shirou's ideals. Therefore, it's safe to assume that current Shirou will end up doing the same things, only he won't regret it like Archer does.
In other words, Shirou will overlook and disregard the larger repercussions of his actions, unlike Archer. Said repercussions being mass murder and death.
This is what's bothering me so much about Shirou's "answer". His answer gives him security within and prevents him from ever succumbing to despair and regret like Archer, sure. But there's nothing to suggest he won't do the same things Archer did before Archer succumbed to despair and regret. The only difference in the end seems to be that he'll be killing all these people and reaching towards this ideal, the ideal that Kiritsugu reached for, only he won't feel guilty about it and will happily do it. This would basically turn him into an ignorant death machine, a well-intentioned monster, causing widespread destruction and despair while turning a blind eye to the fact he's even causing it in the first place.
This comparison might feel out of nowhere, but it reminds me of communism. It's a great, beautiful idea on paper, but in reality it has severe issues. Shirou and UBW seems to suggest: "Hey, don't worry about those issues! The impact the endgame has on others doesn't matter! As long as you are happy and believe you're doing the right thing, despite the valid criticisms of others, then it'll all be OK!"
This is why I say Shirou is ignoring criticism in the long run. It's not because I didn't pay attention, or because I don't understand the inner peace that Shirou is aiming for. It's that he's valuing inner peace over real life consequences, and there's nothing presented to suggest he will ever acknowledge those real life consequences, not when he's disregarding them right now while staring at the very embodiment of them. Not Archer himself, but the long line of bodies stretching behind him.
--About the Gil scene
Now you're just nitpicking
What matters if he took the GoB out or not?
Ultimately his resolution in teh scene was the basically the same you proposed
It isn't really nitpicking. It's just one of those minor details that makes an enormous impact. With GoB, it highlights the fact that he's not only preparing to battle, but that at that moment, he considers them worth taking his time to kill. Without GoB, the battle isn't built up and he doesn't contradict himself or suddenly change his mind. The very conclusion of the scene is the same, yes, but unlike the current version, this one would feel more natural and legitimate. The execution differs. On a grander scale, for example, just because a book and a movie have the same beginnings and endings, doesn't mean they are the same in the middle, that they're of the same quality, that they're executed the same, or that they have the same impact.
Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 01 June 2015 - 12:10 AM.
Persona 5 hype 
