146 replies to this topic

[Kyuudaime]

People can hate a main character as much as they want to and can point out as many flaws as they want to, doesn't mean they should stop reading.

[True]

Yes exactly it's directed towards young teenage boys. But when you look at all the forums Naruto is on and read peoples comments you notice that people miss understand many many points of the story. I never said it took a college degree so I don't see where you come up with that comment. Sure you are allowed to criticize anything you wan't but people are saying they don't like Sasuke and that's fine you don't have to but without what is going on your missing the bigger picture without Sasuke and showing all the things there showing there is NO story. Because it is simply putting all the loose ends of the past together in an attempt to fix them now.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I commented on. I made a post on the development of Naruto (the character) and how with this chapter Kishimoto keeps back pedaling his growth and maturity as the plot progresses by hindering is development by placing too much emphasis on his bond with Sasuke and how it brings down his character. No where I do mention anything directly about Sasuke, who I'm indifferent towards. Naruto's focus on Sasuke would not suddenly leave the manga without a plot. It has no major effect on it besides what Naruto--the hero of the story--will do when the plot asks for him to be a part of what is going on with which Sasuke is more involved then he is.

All of these things tie together without one there is no reason for the other. I'm just saying if you don't like it don't read it because it's very simple you cannot criticize a main part of a story and say you don't like it. It's like saying you don't like the idea of pokemon. Well I hate to tell you if you don't like Pokemon you'r going to hate the story so why watch it? Same with Naruto people say they hate Sasuke but he's one of the main guy's in the story. So if you don't like him you'r going to be really disapointed if you continue reading the manga. Plus how can you only want to hear half of the story anyways? Some people are just into the fighting. Some are just into the NaruSaku. But EVERYONE should be into the main plot and that's what people are trying to down talk..

Again nothing about the main story was stated. I'm speaking on the development of the lead character and how it has been terribly inconsistent and how the author has vastly changed a character from part one to his current state. In the beginning we got an immature child who began to learn about friendship/teamwork/aspiration leading towards the ultimate goal of being a successful leader. Now we have a current state where all of those other aspects of his character have been ignored to solely focus on one aspect of the character (the bond he shares with Sasuke) and how it has impended his character numerous times throughout part 2 of the story even when we see signs of positive growth (death of Jiraiya/Pain fight) they become encumbered by events such as these (getting beaten/begging for someone else sake). I speak on dissatisfaction that a character that I very much liked and held in high regard has taken such a deep fall that I can't simply expect this to be good writing when compared to other stories in which I've never seen a main character who's development has been as shoddy as this. I hold the right to criticize something I find poorly done.

A more blunt response would be: It takes less than 5 minutes to read and I can conclude a response very easily from it. Not as if it is a major novel that requires high levels of intelligence and effort to figure out.

[Prime]

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I commented on. I made a post on the development of Naruto (the character) and how with this chapter Kishimoto keeps back pedaling his growth and maturity as the plot progresses by hindering is development by placing too much emphasis on his bond with Sasuke and how it brings down his character. No where I do mention anything directly about Sasuke, who I'm indifferent towards. Naruto's focus on Sasuke would not suddenly leave the manga without a plot. It has no major effect on it besides what Naruto--the hero of the story--will do when the plot asks for him to be a part of what is going on with which Sasuke is more involved then he is.


Again nothing about the main story was stated. I'm speaking on the development of the lead character and how it has been terribly inconsistent and how the author has vastly changed a character from part one to his current state. In the beginning we got an immature child who began to learn about friendship/teamwork/aspiration leading towards the ultimate goal of being a successful leader. Now we have a current state where all of those other aspects of his character have been ignored to solely focus on one aspect of the character (the bond he shares with Sasuke) and how it has impended his character numerous times throughout part 2 of the story even when we see signs of positive growth (death of Jiraiya/Pain fight) they become encumbered by events such as these (getting beaten/begging for someone else sake). I speak on dissatisfaction that a character that I very much liked and held in high regard has taken such a deep fall that I can't simply expect this to be good writing when compared to other stories in which I've never seen a main character who's development has been as shoddy as this. I hold the right to criticize something I find poorly done.

A more blunt response would be: It takes less than 5 minutes to read and I can conclude a response very easily from it. Not as if it is a major novel that requires high levels of intelligence and effort to figure out.

Wow are you REALLY serious with what you are saying? It has no major effect? What you think the story is about? It's about Naruto and Sasuke fixing what the generation before them could not. I hate to tell you this but PEOPLE CHANGE. Naruto now has more on his shoulders then he ever did before. All of this leads to the path of Hokage. Sasuke is basically being manipulated by some one that feels they should be the hokage. Sasuke is supposed to be his friend. He cannot become the Hokage without fixing that situation first or it ends up at a worthless point in the story. Defeating pain was a small point of the story your looking at it to small. Pain was just a small time goonie working for Madara some one who want's to control the world. Life has it's up's and down's. Naruto it simply in his down time. But he will come back stronger. You act like this did not happen in part one at all. Naruto had many many down falls and the point was always to overcome them. But they came easy. Not everything in life is easy and the hardest obstical is right in front of him and that's what he is facing. and that obsticle is saving Sasuke. Someone he has fought for and cried over. It's hard to go save your whole village and be praised while wanting to become hokage but in the back of your mind you know now that your friends want to kill the person you strive to save the most.

If you want some fake powder coated story where the main guy always wins never has any problems then your just not looking in the right place.

[Miss Soupy]

I think the major issue that we are getting at is if you, say, graphed out Naruto's development, there would be many ups and downs but it would lack an overall increase towards maturity. While I expect an increasing line with some minor ups and downs, the overall trend should be going up. However, with this last chapter, it feels as if kishi has caused Naruto to bottom out completely. It doesn't really have much to do with the plot, but rather the flow of the story. Perhaps Kishimoto is stretching.

[True]

Wow are you REALLY serious with what you are saying? It has no major effect? What you think the story is about? It's about Naruto and Sasuke fixing what the generation before them could not. I hate to tell you this but PEOPLE CHANGE. Naruto now has more on his shoulders then he ever did before. All of this leads to the path of Hokage. Sasuke is basically being manipulated by some one that feels they should be the hokage. Sasuke is supposed to be his friend. He cannot become the Hokage without fixing that situation first or it ends up at a worthless point in the story.

Why is it that you keep averting away from what I originally posted? You are going on a vastly different tangent and looping around my points. I'm not talking about the plot. I'm not talking about the other characters. I'm strictly speaking on the DEVELOPMENT of Naruto's character. The main character in a story goes through many trials and tribulations in his path to success. There are moments where he/she is at their lowest and from there on they improve. There are two very good examples of this showcasing. One was Jiraiya's death (where Kishi said in his interview would help Naruto "grow up") and how he dealt with adversity of losing someone very close to him. The other was the Pain fight where not only does he show his growth skill wise, but his maturity as he did not kill Pain but forgave him for the death of Jiraiya. This ended the "cycle of hatred" and showed he wouldn't succumb to what people would normally do in getting revenge. These are good examples of showing a character develop and mature. However, the instances in which I pointed out where Naruto goes forth and humiliates himself for the sake of another person who doesn't even care about him is painful to read.

Defeating pain was a small point of the story your looking at it to small.

This makes absolutely no literal sense.

Pain was just a small time goonie working for Madara some one who want's to control the world. Life has it's up's and down's. Naruto it simply in his down time.

So you are basically saying that the big fight where Naruto single handily defeated the strongest ninja in the world and rescued his village where he is now seen as a hero isn't important? You keep contradicting yourself in your argument that I'm lost even trying to understand it.

But he will come back stronger. You act like this did not happen in part one at all. Naruto had many many down falls and the point was always to overcome them. But they came easy. Not everything in life is easy and the hardest obstical is right in front of him and that's what he is facing. and that obsticle is saving Sasuke. Someone he has fought for and cried over. It's hard to go save your whole village and be praised while wanting to become hokage but in the back of your mind you know now that your friends want to kill the person you strive to save the most.

I stated earlier that characters in fictional stories go through lots of trouble and must overcome challenges in their path towards the ultimate goal they want to achieve. My criticism is allocated towards the points in which he is put in a position where he shows no cases of pride or self respect and begins to humiliate himself which you are disguising as "good" development towards maturity. Did you not read earlier when Sakura herself told him that he must get over Sasuke and focus on the bigger issue of the impending dangers that effect the majority of peoples lives? Only to immediately be followed by the events in this chapter where he was overwhelmed and fainted? He was able to endure defeating Pain both physically and intellectually yet now he can't even hold is own when dealing with Sasuke. This shows a regression of development that has been a constant in Kishi's writing.

If you want some fake powder coated story where the main guy always wins never has any problems then your just not looking in the right place.

What I want is a story in which the main character isn't constantly humiliated due to his obsession with another person.

1)Letting Karui beat him up
2)Begging the Raikage to forgive Sasuke's crimes
3)Fainting due to him not being able to handle others showing their dislike of Sasuke.

How do these help his character? How do they improve him in maturing? They are in chronological order and seemingly only get worse. These aren't cases in which he's going through tough scrutiny or harassment, but rather personality points that put a negative connation on his growth as the story progresses. Please explain how they help develop his character in a positive sense.

[ciardha]

I think the major issue that we are getting at is if you, say, graphed out Naruto's development, there would be many ups and downs but it would lack an overall increase towards maturity. While I expect an increasing line with some minor ups and downs, the overall trend should be going up. However, with this last chapter, it feels as if kishi has caused Naruto to bottom out completely. It doesn't really have much to do with the plot, but rather the flow of the story. Perhaps Kishimoto is stretching.

No, to me it looks exactly like Kishimoto is bringing Naruto and Sakura toward maturity one painful step at a time.

Just like Sakura had to lose her illusions about redeeming Sasuke. It was a bit less traumatic for her because she had been looking at Sasuke in part 2 in a more wary fashion than Naruto anyway. It was mainly Naruto that was keeping her holding on to what illusions she had to start with. Once she hit that last breaking point of the illusions, she didn't fight it. Sakura had already somewhat moved on from Sasuke by the the time Naruto returned to Konoha in 248. Naruto though, has not moved on from Sasuke at all. He felt he had to keep trying, and only part of it was because of the POAL, and very little even of that from Sakura's request, most were rules he made up for himself (rules that horrified Sakura when she found out from Sai about them) Sakura let the bond to Sasuke get smaller and smaller in her life, she had many things with far more importance- first her bond to Naruto and protecting him, second her bond and responsibilities to Tsunade, then her life as a medic nin and a fighter, etc... For Naruto he's taken on more and more things, but redeeming Sasuke was always his number 1 goal, even more than becoming Hokage. His illusion about Sasuke is breaking and breaking hard. He's overwhelmed and passes out because he's lost. He has to face the reality about Sasuke that Sakura had to deal with, but he's a lot more tied to Sasuke than even Sakura felt.

Kishimoto said he was going to make this complex and painful, and that's exactly what he's done. I don't see a diminishment in quality at all. I see a rise actually. It is a complex story now.

[catsi563]

Im with Cirada here aagin.

Kishimoto-sensei has created a deep 3 dimensional chracter in both Sakura and Naruto. he has given them highs and lows, Failures and Succeses, breakdowns and build ups, tragedy and triumph in equal measure.

without it Naruto would remain a caricature of a stereotypical shonen male lead. And Sakura would remain a stereotypical tsundere female.

She has grown far beyond that, and so now will he.

[Miss Soupy]

No, to me it looks exactly like Kishimoto is bringing Naruto and Sakura toward maturity one painful step at a time.

For Naruto he's taken on more and more things, but redeeming Sasuke was always his number 1 goal, even more than becoming Hokage. His illusion about Sasuke is breaking and breaking hard. He's overwhelmed and passes out because he's lost. He has to face the reality about Sasuke that Sakura had to deal with, but he's a lot more tied to Sasuke than even Sakura felt.

Kishimoto said he was going to make this complex and painful, and that's exactly what he's done. I don't see a diminishment in quality at all. I see a rise actually. It is a complex story now.

If you read what I said, I didn't have a problem with ups and downs as long as there was a general movement towards maturity. But rather than doing that, we have upward movements and then a complete zero-out of development where Naruto basically has to start all over again. I don't like his begging or fainting. Of course, he has made it so he can't become hokage unless he saves Sasuke. So pretty much regardless of all his sudden anxiety, he is pretty much forced to repeat what he has always said and will still try and save Sasuke. He has to. Which makes all of this over-dramatic to me, and Kishi should just get on with it XP

Time for inner world dramaz.

[catsi563]

actualy soupy I think youll start seeing that forward trend soon. This is the low point of low points Narutos hit. Even Jiraiyas death and the villages destruction didnt hit him as hard as these latest revelations did.

Its oft said that the sharpest ad hardest blades are forged in the hottest flames. Naruto has certianly bene through some scrochers lately. Its easy to see that those flames will help forge him into a stronger person for it.

[RedDelicious]

Soupy, I see you point that it can be frustrating to see Naruto not make progress on his path to being a better person. But I agree with Cirada and catsi here. When he is taking "steps back", he is not treading the same ground, but moving towards a new path.

actualy soupy I think youll start seeing that forward trend soon. This is the low point of low points Narutos hit. Even Jiraiyas death and the villages destruction didnt hit him as hard as these latest revelations did.

Its oft said that the sharpest ad hardest blades are forged in the hottest flames. Naruto has certianly bene through some scrochers lately. Its easy to see that those flames will help forge him into a stronger person for it.

Naruto's growth was being hindered by his worldview from when he was 12. Which was forged by his isolation, and his relief when he found companionship in Team 7. He has broken that worldview now, and is starting from scratch. He may be "lower" than he was in past chapters, but now he could soar higher without those shackles.
Preferably starting with , and then

[Prime]

Because you are trying to say "Just this point" you cannot look at a single point of a story when there's so much more to it as one effects the other. Him not killing pain was expected he has not killed anyone in the whole manga anyways but sure it does show development. So Naruto killed the strongest ninja in the world? Hows that possible? Because there's stronger Ninja not only was Naruto stronger but so is Madara and probly even Danzo/Itachi.
The point is Naruto still has to get stronger and some people see him show weakness and freak out as if it has not been shown in the whole manga. Then make up excuses as to why it's so bad now. That's why I said if you don't like it and it's that big of a problem read something else.
Why does his character always have to be the best? If you are the best then you simply have no reason to progress more. Naruto has had nothing given to him like Sasuke has. Not the talent or anything. Naruto has always been beaten down and came back stronger so what's the problem all a sudden that people are crying? Let Kishi tell the story as none of us have any choice anyways. Everything will eventually come together and be obvious. As if it's not already obvious enough.

[Strangelove]

We need to be real here, as much as Kishi downplays Naruto...Naruto is still the main character...Kishi just wants to add more emotion to him, rather than making him look like Son Goku, who is all powerful, Kishi adds weakness to Naruto lol...

[Dreamer]

I agree with True and also about Naruto hitting rock bottom and coming back up, which I believe Kishi has used too much throughout the manga causing some readers to get annoyed with Kishi's strategy.

Moving on to something else I would like to bring up is I'm getting mostly tired of Naruto refusing to accept Sai as his close friend and member of team 7. Naruto keeps thinking about old team 7 and it bothers me that Sai is left out like a shadow. I hope Kishi has Sai bring this up to both Naruto and Sakura someway were he would say "Naruto you don't look at me as your close friend/brother/member like Sasuke?", "am I worthless/compared to Sasuke Naruto?", or "If Sasuke does come back what will you think of me, Naruto?" .

[Miss Soupy]

Moving on to something else I would like to bring up is I'm getting mostly tired of Naruto refusing to accept Sai as his close friend and member of team 7. Naruto keeps thinking about old team 7 and it bothers me that Sai is left out like a shadow. I hope Kishi has Sai bring this up to both Naruto and Sakura someway were he would say "Naruto you don't look at me as your close friend/brother/member like Sasuke?", "am I worthless/compared to Sasuke Naruto?", or "If Sasuke does come back what will you think of me, Naruto?" .

Yeah, I agree. I have felt really bad for Sai lately. And it's not just Naruto pushing him away, its Kakashi and Sakura too. None of them are trusting him with their burdens, which makes him feel less part of the team. He keeps repeating how he is a member of team 7 too, and yet no one hears him ;_; I hope it doesn't take something bad happening to Sai for Naruto and Sakura to appreciate him DX

[FullmetalNinja25]

Am I the only one that thinks the reason why Naruto collapsed is so he can have another talk with his dad?

[Derock]

Yeah, I agree. I have felt really bad for Sai lately. And it's not just Naruto pushing him away, its Kakashi and Sakura too. None of them are trusting him with their burdens, which makes him feel less part of the team. He keeps repeating how he is a member of team 7 too, and yet no one hears him ;_; I hope it doesn't take something bad happening to Sai for Naruto and Sakura to appreciate him DX

Kakashi isn't ignoring Sai. You forgot about their talk right before Sai told Sakura about Naruto's feelings for her. Although I do agree that both Naruto and lesser to the extent Sakura are pushing poor Sai away...

[Miss Soupy]

@derock

Well, Sai said he would keep Sakura away from Sasuke, and Kakashi was like, no, I'd rather go myself. Sort of blew him off. But yeah, Kakashi did show he believed in Sai. I really liked that moment ^^

[dl316bh]

rather than making him look like Son Goku, who is all powerful, Kishi adds weakness to Naruto lol...

Uhh, what? A lot of the time, Goku won by the skin of his teeth if it was even him that won the end battle at all. He didn't even make it out alive at least twice in Z. All powerful is not what I'd use to describe Goku; if anything, he was often a step behind and needed to catch up. That anime (and manga) had it's problems, but I don't believe an "all powerful" main character was one of them.

Naruto, however, is pretty emotionally weak. Especially when it comes to Sasuke, as True's already hammered home. He's becoming far less fun to read; same for the manga.

Yeah, yeah, I know; "then don't read it HERP DERP". Trust me, if I wasn't still invested and interested in NaruSaku, I would have given up the ghost a long time ago. I pretty much gave up on the manga itself back when the entire village was resurrected at the end of the Nagato/Pein fight.

Am I the only one that thinks the reason why Naruto collapsed is so he can have another talk with his dad?

I suppose it's possible that it might have happened strictly to get Naruto in the position for that structure-wise; but the in-story reasons why seems to be that he can't handle what's going on with Sasuke, so he hyperventilated and collapsed.

The extended exposure to the cold probably didn't help, but that's just me speculating; I doubt it will be described as a factor in a chapter itself.

Edited by dl316bh, 19 December 2009 - 05:57 AM.

[ciardha]

Kakashi isn't ignoring Sai. You forgot about their talk right before Sai told Sakura about Naruto's feelings for her. Although I do agree that both Naruto and lesser to the extent Sakura are pushing poor Sai away...

Kakashi, Yamato and Naruto pushed Sakura away when they left without Sakura, and when they didn't tell Sakura what Madara told them about Sasuke. Sakura has actually shown a fair amount of acceptance of Sai lately, and she did chose him as part of her team to seek out Naruto, and to seek out Sasuke, after all. She just feels the burden of dealing with Sasuke is hers alone, especially with Naruto's virulent refusal to give up on Sasuke. Sai sees Sakura doing the same thing Naruto did, taking all the burdens on alone and he feels guilty because he was a large part of triggering this action in Sakura.

[NaruSaku93]

I suppose it's possible that it might have happened strictly to get Naruto in the position for that structure-wise; but the in-story reasons why seems to be that he can't handle what's going on with Sasuke, so he hyperventilated and collapsed.

The extended exposure to the cold probably didn't help, but that's just me speculating; I doubt it will be described as a factor in a chapter itself.

but i thought naruto couldnt get in contact with his father again after he broke that seal or whatever it was.