156 replies to this topic

[MagusKyros]

You're kidding right? Ichigo getting his Bankai in 3 days when other Shinigami go decades of dedicated training to get one.

Uruhara also got his in 3 days ;D

Shriner is one of those people who loves great and steady character and strength development, both what Naruto lacks in the second part. You can try to rationlize however you want that the powerups for Naruto, Sakura, Sasuke, Shikamaru, etc, etc make sense, but you really can't.

There was good power and character development in the first part, for Naruto anyway. Sasuke was getting upgrades to his Sharingan, so that was annoying, and Sakura was mostly developing as a character, which was subtle as is apparent in the rampant Sakura hate in the fandom (last I checked anyway). However, considering how the enemies and everything was introduced in the first part, it's disappointing how a bunch of pre-teens in just TWO YEARS obtained the strength and skills to fight against people who were able to take out countless other ninjas.

I mean, Kakashi was a teenager when he was fighting and killing jounins and such, but he was trained since the day he could walk, and he had high intelligentual abilities (qualification of a genius). Sasuke's growth is probably the most appropriate, given that the Sharingan can copy skills and such, and being a genius to boot would allow him to figure out things quicker. He's basically a Deus Ex Machina incarnate. Though, I still don't accept how he defeated Orochimaru.

Kinda lame...

[Kirby]

You're kidding right? Ichigo getting his Bankai in 3 days when other Shinigami go decades of dedicated training to get one.

Who cares how long it takes to do it? Ichigo's Bankain (IMO) sucks. He just gets speed boost. Plus, even WITH the Bankai, he can't take on espada

[papo]

jeez so much negativily in this thread all of a sudden things getting so off track

Edited by papo, 02 January 2009 - 02:55 AM.

[Sakura Blossoms]

Who cares how long it takes to do it? Ichigo's Bankain (IMO) sucks. He just gets speed boost. Plus, even WITH the Bankai, he can't take on espada

Let's not start going completely off-topic, and '(IMO)' or not, speaking so negatively about a character from a totally different series abilities

jeez so much negativily in this thread all of a sudden things getting so off track

That's why I keep on saying for those of us who are happy with this chapter, and Naruto's awesome new abilities to just continue to enjoy how the series is now going, and for those who aren't really happy with Naruto's new abilities to take what they can get, and for us all to just look forward to the next chapter together

[No WhereMan]

Uruhara also got his in 3 days ;D

Shriner is one of those people who loves great and steady character and strength development, both what Naruto lacks in the second part. You can try to rationlize however you want that the powerups for Naruto, Sakura, Sasuke, Shikamaru, etc, etc make sense, but you really can't.

There was good power and character development in the first part, for Naruto anyway. Sasuke was getting upgrades to his Sharingan, so that was annoying, and Sakura was mostly developing as a character, which was subtle as is apparent in the rampant Sakura hate in the fandom (last I checked anyway). However, considering how the enemies and everything was introduced in the first part, it's disappointing how a bunch of pre-teens in just TWO YEARS obtained the strength and skills to fight against people who were able to take out countless other ninjas.

I mean, Kakashi was a teenager when he was fighting and killing jounins and such, but he was trained since the day he could walk, and he had high intelligentual abilities (qualification of a genius). Sasuke's growth is probably the most appropriate, given that the Sharingan can copy skills and such, and being a genius to boot would allow him to figure out things quicker. He's basically a Deus Ex Machina incarnate. Though, I still don't accept how he defeated Orochimaru.

Kinda lame...

Well how about this everyone. Since so many people are making a big deal about this, go and spend the time to write and draw your own award-winning Manga and then you can dictate how long or how fast your characters can advance, because bottomline if you guys don't like the direction this Manga is going. Don't read it. It's just that simple.

Edited by No WhereMan, 02 January 2009 - 03:31 AM.

[Kamina-Yoshi]

XD

I was thinking more of blue spandex, a helmet, golden manly boots, and the Blue Falcon with the cockpit opening while doing his signature move....


NARUTO-PAAAAWNCH!

Though, I still don't accept how he defeated Orochimaru.

Kinda lame...

A freakin' men. I considered leaving the manga alone for a whole year to bear that lose. Orochimaru was, quite possibly, the perfect villain for Naruto. He's been around the longest, had the most development, and didn't pop up out of nowhere. He was part of the integral plot since the beginning. I absolutely hate his death, but I still remember that Kabuto-maru* is still alive. There is hope.


*(WHERE IS HE?!)

Edited by Kamina-Yoshi, 02 January 2009 - 04:31 AM.

[Nate River]

Well how about this everyone. Since so many people are making a big deal about this, go and spend the time to write and draw your own award-winning Manga and then you can dictate how long or how fast your characters can advance, because bottomline if you guys don't like the direction this Manga is going. Don't read it. It's just that simple.

I had pretty much decided to abandon the issue until I saw this.

That's fine, but I don't want to hear you complain about anything that happens from here on out no matter how nonsensical or ridiculous it may be because, you know, your more than welcome to do the same thing you're demanding we do.

What's truly getting under my skin is that nobody gave this kind deference or got this bent out of shape when it Sasuke who was the beneficiary. When it was Sasuke people could complain all they want without being told to sit down and shut up.

I have trouble believing that you've always loved the direction the manga has been going.

[Derock]

... am I the only person who starting to hate the Naruto/Dragonball Z comparison? Because both are totally different series and I wish people (the fandom) stop comparing them from strength to couples...

Anyways, let's drop the "Naruto = WAY TOO POWERFUL ALA DBZ OMG KISHI COPIED LULZ" comparison and talk about how awesome the chapter was and what may happen next.

A freakin' men. I considered leaving the manga alone for a whole year to bear that lose. Orochimaru was, quite possibly, the perfect villain for Naruto. He's been around the longest, had the most development, and didn't pop up out of nowhere. He was part of the integral plot since the beginning. I absolutely hate his death, but I still remember that Kabuto-maru* is still alive. There is hope.


*(WHERE IS HE?!)

You're not the only one. Even though I hated him (scared me half to death with the sound of his voice), Orochimaru was the #1 crazy-ass perfect villian. And don't worry, Orochimaru fused-Kabuto will come back (hopefully until the next Naruto V. Sasuke fight.)

[Nate River]

... am I the only person who starting to hate the Naruto/Dragonball Z comparison? Because both are totally different series and I wish people (the fandom) stop comparing them from strength to couples...

Anyways, let's drop the "Naruto = WAY TOO POWERFUL ALA DBZ OMG KISHI COPIED LULZ" comparison and talk about how awesome the chapter was and what may happen next.



You're not the only one. Even though I hated him (scared me half to death with the sound of his voice), Orochimaru was the #1 crazy-ass perfect villian. And don't worry, Orochimaru fused-Kabuto will come back (hopefully until the next Naruto V. Sasuke fight.)

Pretty much the same for me. I love Oro as a villain and the way he went out was really kind of sad. Kabutomaru just isn't the same. It's kinda funny because, really, he could drop off the face of the planet right now and no one (in the manga) would probably know or even care. After he gave them the info on Akatsuki.....he just stopped mattering. If Kishi hadn't introduced him like that he could ignore him and no one would probably notice.

[papo]

i liked the chapter reguardless the direction its going naruto is a great title nothings perfect but feels like its getting to the good stuff and things will come to the light; but i feel its far from over or wrapping up still alot of potential and makes too much money for it to end i mean dbz hasnt had any new material and it still banks major bucks. im just gonna be patient and look forward to exciting chapters like this one hopefully theyll start putting more emotion between sakura and naruto it always makes it more fun to read that way..oorah!

[Illmatic]

Oro's defeat felt really anti-climatic to me, I was dissapointed. His role felt diminished.

[No WhereMan]

I had pretty much decided to abandon the issue until I saw this.

That's fine, but I don't want to hear you complain about anything that happens from here on out no matter how nonsensical or ridiculous it may be because, you know, your more than welcome to do the same thing you're demanding we do.

What's truly getting under my skin is that nobody gave this kind deference or got this bent out of shape when it Sasuke who was the beneficiary. When it was Sasuke people could complain all they want without being told to sit down and shut up.

I have trouble believing that you've always loved the direction the manga has been going.

The thing is Nate, no I don't like everything that has occurred in this Manga. I complained right along with the rest of you when Sasuke appeared to be light years ahead of Naruto. I complained right when Sasuke got another upgrade from Itachi. There was a time that I dreaded checking out the manga that friday to see what major screw up was going on with the manga this week. I even thought Kishi didn't know where the story was going too. But the storyline started to come around, figures and people started to make their moves and things were freakin awesome and has been since.

And I looked back onto my past issues and I realized sometimes you have to have faith in the artist and let things pan out sometimes. And you have to understand you can't throw fit just because every single thing in the story doesn't go exactly how you want it to go. It's not your vision and he's not going to cater it to fit what you deem as a good story. And frankly he shouldn't have to.

Again, if you don't like it. Tough, don't read.

[Nee-sama]

i liked the chapter reguardless the direction its going naruto is a great title nothings perfect but feels like its getting to the good stuff and things will come to the light; but i feel its far from over or wrapping up still alot of potential and makes too much money for it to end i mean dbz hasnt had any new material and it still banks major bucks. im just gonna be patient and look forward to exciting chapters like this one hopefully theyll start putting more emotion between sakura and naruto it always makes it more fun to read that way..oorah!

Oorah!!

[Nate River]

The thing is Nate, no I don't like everything that has occurred in this Manga. I complained right along with the rest of you when Sasuke appeared to be light years ahead of Naruto. I complained right when Sasuke got another upgrade from Itachi. There was a time that I dreaded checking out the manga that friday to see what major screw up was going on with the manga this week. I even thought Kishi didn't know where the story was going too. But the storyline started to come around, figures and people started to make their moves and things were freakin awesome and has been since.

And I looked back onto my past issues and I realized sometimes you have to have faith in the artist and let things pan out sometimes. And you have to understand you can't throw fit just because every single thing in the story doesn't go exactly how you want it to go. It's not your vision and he's not going to cater it to fit what you deem as a good story. And frankly he shouldn't have to.

Again, if you don't like it. Tough, don't read.

It's something that cuts both ways. He's not going cater to my vision no matter what I say.

I know it's not my vision and I know he won't cater to it. I don't speak with the expectation that he will. This is true of every complaint every uttered on these boards. If this is the basis of discussion then what's the point of even having one because it means nothing negative can ever be said.

How many posts and threads do we have dedicated to people whining about the fillers? I can't imagine that the animators give a damn, but with only limited exceptions, most people are not told to be quiet and not watch. Same thing with crappy games and so on. How many people here complain about anything with that expectation, yet, they are not attacked for doing so.

I thought the point of these threads was to voice our opinion on the chapter, good or bad. To be honest, I like what Pain's done. I didn't care for the training as much because Kishi essentially explained away all possibly risks of the training, but overall, I've liked this arc more than previous ones.

I disagree with the vast majority of people on this chapter, but I haven't been telling them to be quiet because of that and, yet, I've seen people jumping down my throat since the first time I deviated from the majority opinion.

If the standard is the influence and relevance we to Kishimoto then why do we even talk about it all? He's not going to change his opinion no matter what we say. At best, all we'd be allowed to do is sing his praises regardless of quality. What kind of discussion is that?

Everyone here is entitled to try and refute what I have to say, just as I am to do the reverse. It's easy to say have faith and easy to do so when things are developing the way you want them to.

What if we get a repeat of the Sasuke arc? Is everyone going to hold their tongues or will they state their opinion like I did here? Truthfully, I'd expect them to do the latter, but where's the intellectual honesty in complaining about the direction when you hate it but getting on to someone for doing the same when you like it?

[No WhereMan]

It's something that cuts both ways. He's not going cater to my vision no matter what I say.

I know it's not my vision and I know he won't cater to it. I don't speak with the expectation that he will. This is true of every complaint every uttered on these boards. If this is the basis of discussion then what's the point of even having one because it means nothing negative can ever be said.

How many posts and threads do we have dedicated to people whining about the fillers? I can't imagine that the animators give a damn, but with only limited exceptions, most people are not told to be quiet and not watch. Same thing with crappy games and so on. How many people here complain about anything with that expectation, yet, they are not attacked for doing so.

I thought the point of these threads was to voice our opinion on the chapter, good or bad. To be honest, I like what Pain's done. I didn't care for the training as much because Kishi essentially explained away all possibly risks of the training, but overall, I've liked this arc more than previous ones.

I disagree with the vast majority of people on this chapter, but I haven't been telling them to be quiet because of that and, yet, I've seen people jumping down my throat since the first time I deviated from the majority opinion.

If the standard is the influence and relevance we to Kishimoto then why do we even talk about it all? He's not going to change his opinion no matter what we say. At best, all we'd be allowed to do is sing his praises regardless of quality. What kind of discussion is that?

Everyone here is entitled to try and refute what I have to say, just as I am to do the reverse. It's easy to say have faith and easy to do so when things are developing the way you want them to.

What if we get a repeat of the Sasuke arc? Is everyone going to hold their tongues or will they state their opinion like I did here? Truthfully, I'd expect them to do the latter, but where's the intellectual honesty in complaining about the direction when you hate it but getting on to someone for doing the same when you like it?

I think you misunderstand. Oh, I think its fine to disagree, not approve or what have you of any body of works. In fact let me tell you something, you mentioned the fillers. I have a funny story about that. I saw a decent number of the fillers and I came to the same conclusion like the rest of you. They were crap. But...this is where the story becomes interesting. Instead of sitting through all of the fillers and then come on here and complain about them. I. Just. Stopped. Watching. Them. I have a similar story about Bleach. Watching the anime, loved the anime...untill it got into that puppet arc or something. Either way, instead of finding a Bleach forum to complain about my frustrations. I just stopped watching it.

Now, i know my thoughts can be somewhat radical and i doubt you're going to stop reading/watching Naruto and I'm not asking you to. But if you have a grip and feel the need to express it here. Fine. But after a point let it go. Or just say "I can't deal with it anymore" and leave the series alone.

Also this is going to be my last post about it. I've said what i wanted to.

Edited by No WhereMan, 02 January 2009 - 07:45 AM.

[Nate River]

I think you misunderstand. Oh, I think its fine to disagree, not approve or what have you of any body of works. In fact let me tell you something, you mentioned the fillers. I have a funny story about that. I saw a decent number of the fillers and I came to the same conclusion like the rest of you. They were crap. But...this is where the story becomes interesting. Instead of sitting through all of the fillers and then come on here and complain about them. I. Just. Stopped. Watching. Them. I have a similar story about Bleach. Watching the anime, loved the anime...untill it got into that puppet arc or something. Either way, instead of finding a Bleach forum to complain about my frustrations. I just stopped watching it.

Now, i know my thoughts can be somewhat radical and i doubt you're going to stop reading/watching Naruto and I'm not asking you to. But if you have a grip and feel the need to express it here. Fine. But after a point let it go. Or just say "I can't deal with it anymore" and leave the series alone.

No, you're not doing so directly, but last statement seems to leave the subtle suggestion that I should. Overall, this entire thread has left me with the feeling that the acceptability of my right to express my opinion is correlated with the popularity of the direction of the manga and other people's acceptance of my opinion rather than my own personal feelings about the manga as a whole. And this is, almost exclusively, what's ticking me off so much. I don't ask anyone to do the same when the positions are reversed (and if I have before then I was wrong for doing so. Would such calls be as strong if they hated it too? I doubt it. No one's been getting these requests when the direction is unpopular.

I don't hate every chapter as I've said I liked many of the previous ones. I don't comment on every single one because I don't always have the time to debate about them and I don't like to debate if all I can say is "great chapter." I don't feel like that contributes anything.

But fine, I'll drop the issue entirely and speak not another word about this chapter. I'll try to read in silence until I have something positive to say because, the bottom line is, that's all I seem to be allowed to do without half board jumping down my throat. The grief simply isn't worth the time and effort expended, but I remain bitter of the selectivity that seems to surround the acceptably of criticism of the chapters. As I said before, no one seemed to have a problem with them when they hated the chapter too.

Oh, I actually don't even watch the anime. I still refuse to download anything DB translates.

EDIT: I'm finished as well. There's nothing more I want to say.

[KittenLou]

Aside from Naruto's annoying ability to remain in sage mode without using pa or ma toad, Hinata's sudden appearance baffles me. She hasn't been featured in a single panel since things really began to heat up in this invasion. The last time we saw her was when Pain actually infiltrated the village. We saw nothing of what she was doing before hand, and Kishimoto just throws her in as an individual saved, even though we learn that Tsunade saved everyone in the village. I don't understand what the point in showing her is.

I'll get back to my other pet-peeve: Why does Kishimoto constantly feel the need to skim over training methods? Seriously, if Naruto learned to manage sage mode with movement through sheer will and determination, I'll be very upset.

[iwant2bnaruto]

Aside from Naruto's annoying ability to remain in sage mode without using pa or ma toad, Hinata's sudden appearance baffles me. She hasn't been featured in a single panel since things really began to heat up in this invasion. The last time we saw her was when Pain actually infiltrated the village. We saw nothing of what she was doing before hand, and Kishimoto just throws her in as an individual saved, even though we learn that Tsunade saved everyone in the village. I don't understand what the point in showing her is.

I'll get back to my other pet-peeve: Why does Kishimoto constantly feel the need to skim over training methods? Seriously, if Naruto learned to manage sage mode with movement through sheer will and determination, I'll be very upset.

Good point about Hinata. Now that you mention it, her appearance does seem rather sudden and random. The most straight forward explanation I offer is that we got to see what Kiba and Shino were up to relative to Pain's attack in the previous chapters. Perhaps (hopefully) it was just Kishi showing Hinata to even out the rest of Team 8.

Some of the comments in this thread have confused me about what we know of sage mode. My understanding is that (1) Naruto should not remain in sage mode for long periods of time and (2) in order to gather the necessary natural energy for sage mode, he needs to remain absolutely still.

Reference: Manga chapter 420, page 12

Now at the beginning of his sage training, Naruto used the oil to help with the transformation and later was able to complete the transformation without it. It was also shown that he was able to train while in sage mode without the need to fuse with Fukasaku. It would seem that the fusion was only necessary to enter sage mode while during battle (which would require constant movement for fear of being caught in an attack). From then, fusion with Fukasaku and/or Shima benefit probably to both extend the time that Naruto could remain in that state and bring out its full potential. At least that's how I am interpreting the whole technique.

As someone had pointed out earlier, Naruto most likely entered sage mode prior to the reverse summon.

Edited by iwant2bnaruto, 02 January 2009 - 08:16 PM.

[Kirby]

Good point about Hinata. Now that you mention it, her appearance does seem rather sudden and random. The most straight forward explanation I offer is that we got to see what Kiba and Shino were up to relative to Pain's attack in the previous chapters. Perhaps (hopefully) it was just Kishi showing Hinata to even out the rest of Team 8.

Some of the comments in this thread have confused me about what we know of sage mode. My understanding is that (1) Naruto should not remain in sage mode for long periods of time and (2) in order to gather the necessary natural energy for sage mode, he needs to remain absolutely still.

Reference: Manga chapter 420, page 12

Now at the beginning of his sage training, Naruto used the oil to help with the transformation and later was able to complete the transformation without it. It was also shown that was able to train while in sage mode without the need to fuse with Fukasaku. It would seem that the fusion was only necessary enter sage mode while during battle (which would require constant movement for fear of being caught in an attack). From then, fusion with Fukasaku and/or Shima benefit probably to both extend the time that Naruto could remain in that state and bring out its full potential. At least that's how I am interpreting the whole technique.

As someone had pointed out earlier, Naruto most likely entered sage mode prior to the reverse summon.

I agree. That makes sense. Jiriaya probably had the toads to lengthen sage mode.

[Chivalrysae]

I'm really not too sure about Naruto being overpowered. Yes, he has become as strong or even stronger than his mentor, but taking out one Pein body in one move does not make him overpowered. 1. He caught that Pein off guard. 2. The powerful villians have a tendency to underestimate their opponents.

I would expect his upcoming fights with Pein to still be difficult as he won't be underestimated, and he most likely won't have the element of suprise. I will have to admit, this is what I have been waiting for. His fighting style seems to have matured and he seems to be more level headed. You can almost see his growth towards becoming Hokage. And remember, it seems that there are limitations to every ability. There may be other vulnerabilities in Sage Mode (time/chakra limit) that Naruto would still need to struggle with or learn to improve.