211 replies to this topic

[Namaenash]

In the Boruto manga is there any nH/SS so far? No. In the anime? Yes, because they have to pander to keep the lights on.

 

From what I recall Kishimoto only got awards after the manga finished as more as a celebration/reward for the entire series instead of one year of good writing that beat all the other manga in that year. The corporations always cared more about the fact that Naruto was an international seller then anything to do about the story.

 

A manga this scale bounds to won an award or two. Not surprising that Naruto garnered awards for celebration to promote Japanese culture and product. It was huge. But when it comes to content and quality of storytelling, Shogakukan and Kodansha awards are two of the most prestigious ones.

[Phantom_999]

It just comes down to one simple fact.

Kishimoto was too much a coward to go through with anything. Like Sakura to Sasuke, when it came time to deal with a certain situation...he chickened out. This is why he kept the ambiguity for so long and why he kept toying with the fanbases. There was never a clear cut answer to anything until the movie. He kept it all ambiguous until someone ELSE explained it.

Maybe he thought the blame would be put on them...maybe he was scared of backlash...I don't know, but I just know that he was too scared to make anything concrete. The dude just couldn't resolve some major plot issues. We know this ever since the Pein Arc. The whole series after Pein was nothing but major ambiguity.

Just when you think he was gonna to end something....he blue balls it to not piss anyone off.

Hell, he could have ended NH right when Naruto told Hinata "You don't need me to be strong for yourself." That could have been the moment that Naruto ended NH, but again, left it ambiguous. Then you have even more NS, NH, and even SK dangling keys that sent this whole fandom a blaze only to let someone else make up kitten to drop a bomb on the fandom.

 

 

Well technically it was not so much of him chickening out as it was him being lead around the nose by his editors, as it was the Editors that really write the story and he just draws it. IT just so happened when Yahagi was his editor the ideas were consistent as there was no switch but after Yahagi left he was changing editors all the time so there for the ideas seem to be all over the place. That's is the main problem, he, Masashi Kishimoto was never the one writing the story

Edited by Phantom_999, 07 October 2017 - 05:13 AM.

[Yyubie]

 

A manga this scale bounds to won an award or two. Not surprising that Naruto garnered awards for celebration to promote Japanese culture and product. It was huge. But when it comes to content and quality of storytelling, Shogakukan and Kodansha awards are two of the most prestigious ones.

I remember Kishi receive an award though i don't remember what it is , the one that i remember is that he didn't even smile when he was handed that trophy. And after that he never smile in front of media for quite a while. We think that he looked miserable because this is not the ending that he planned or because of the backlash / hate on the ending.

[Phantom_999]

Oh I'm not denying that at all. I'm just saying technically speaking he was not the one writing the story. So he's not a coward for not sticking to his story, he is a coward for not even trying to MAKE a story, even though he is it's creator 

Edited by Phantom_999, 07 October 2017 - 09:15 PM.

[sushi.]

Oh I'm not denying that at all. I'm just saying technically speaking he was not the one writing the story. So he's not a coward for not sticking to his story, he is a coward for not even trying to MAKE a story, even though he is it's creator 

I believe at one point the story was his, but that he eventually he sold it.

[Phantom_999]

Oh it WAS his story, but again he wasn't making it. It was Yahagi giving him all the ideas and he followed through with it, so he's not the writer, he was the artist only. Again you only have to see how Yahagi left to notice how the writing quality went down or how the story is all over the place with throwing philosophical themes that get brushed aside for other philosophical themes just to sound  deep and that contradict what was written before no? 

Edited by Phantom_999, 07 October 2017 - 09:27 PM.

[My Living Curse]

Oh it WAS his story, but again he wasn't making it. It was Yahagi giving him all the ideas and he followed through with it, so he's not the writer, he was the artist only. Again you only have to see how Yahagi left to notice how the writing quality went down or how the story is all over the place with throwing philosophical themes that get brushed aside for other philosophical themes just to sound  deep and that contradict what was written before no? 

 

Considering how once during an interview, Yahagi once stated he was going to leave after the Tsunade arc, as he thought Kishimoto was ready to handle the manga (yea, right >.>).

 

But he ended up staying till the Pain Arc. Can't imagine why. But thank God for that at least... 

 

Edit for link: http://www.saiyanisl...ounding-editor/

Edited by My Living Curse, 07 October 2017 - 10:06 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Kishimoto was the mangaka he was both the writer and the artist. The problem is with publishing you are writing your story for your editors. With Yahagi they were working together to tell the story of Naruto, which included NS. The other twelve or so editors while each may have had different ideas enough of them wanted nH to happen to force it to happen.

[Phantom_999]

the thing is, while that is generally true, It is only Kishi that ever blindly follows his editors on how to write his story. I haven't seen any other manga author do that nor any other writer period. I mean sure, the editors control the length and where the story ends, as is the case with Bleach and Dragon ball. I heard Tite Kubo was told to draw fights for every single significant soldier for the Espadas and Wandenreich even though he wanted the series to be shorter, or How Toriyama wanted to end Dragon Ball (Z) at the Freeza arc. But ultimately Kubo and Toriyama wrote the story how they wanted it. Whereas Kishi does EVERYTHING his editors say. I think that is the difference here

Edited by Phantom_999, 10 October 2017 - 05:56 PM.

[tricksie]

 

And now we reach what is arguably the dumbest part in this entire merry go round of stupidity. In reality, Sakura was supposed to tell Naruto that the other leaf ninjas have decided upon themselves to kill his precious Sasuke. Pay extra close attention as we learn Sakura's motivation in confessing to Naruto.

 

 

 

So she knew how Naruto would react, but decided to tell him anyway for . . . reasons? What the hell does he telling Naruto she loves him accomplish if she knows it won't accomplish anything. It is a complete and total waste of time. If she wants to kill Sasuke, then have her go kill Sasuke. Going and confessing to Naruto accomplishes absolutely nothing besides facilitating pointless drama. Put those plot speed boots and Sasuke detecting powers to good use and head directly for Sasuke. By killing him yourself, Naruto is no longer burden by his promise and your objectives are accomplished. So what the hell? Why didn't Sakura do this? She thinks Naruto is going to hate her forever anyway, right?

 

 

 

So what does the confession accomplish besides wasting our time?

 

Then there's this gem below:

 

 

Once again, Sai backpedals on us. First he wants to let Sakura know that she and Sasuke cause Naruto pain. Then he wants to let her know that everyone relies a bit too much on Naruto. Now he's been reduced to a screw up who should have kept his d_mn mouth shut so he implicitly apologizes talking nonsense to Sakura and setting her on this path in the first place. Way to go Sai. In just a few chapters, you've gone from a catalyst for some serious character development for Naruto and Sakura to a worthless buffoon who is only good for backpedaling exposition.

 

CONCLUSION

 

I won't cover the remainder of the arc other than to say that this whole false confession goes nowhere.  Naruto and Sakura's highlighted behavior throughout these chapters and pages I've posted are never referenced again. For the remainder of the manga, it's as if none of it ever happened. And it may as well not have happened since there was no need for Sakura to confess here as a means of fulfulling her objectives. We could've skipped straight to her pursuing Sasuke and Naruto finding out as a result of Sai coming to warn him or something.

 

But I suspect there's a reason things were written in this fashion. Remember earlier when I mentioned having a theory about Shizune's idiotic observation despite there being nothing in Sai's comments to suggest otherwise? I think chapter 457 and 458 pissed off A LOT of the usual suspects (i.e. the ones Kishimoto apparently takes the time to watch their videos). And so Shizune's comment was a way of appeasing the parts of the peanut gallery who refuse to read even on a third grade level (NO NO NO, Naruto wants to save Sasuke for himself as well!) . It's possible that 457 and 458 were initially going to pave the way for something else. Perhaps something along these lines:

 

...

 

But that's not what we got. What we got was the heroine playing with Naruto's feelings despite knowing full well it wouldn't accomplish anything (thus legitimizing most of the complaints towards her character), the hero and heroine behaving in the dumbest and most inconsistent fashion we had ever seen up until that point (it gets topped during chapters 484 - 487) and a complete and utter waste of time that screams of pointless drama. A premonition of things to come for the following story arc no doubt.

 

 

Ok - I never got a chance to respond in depth to the original post. And this is such a good thread because the confession could have been a interesting plot point in building towards NS. Or at least in laying the groundwork for Sakura's case for still 'loving' Sasuke after the ending is revealed. But it doesn't really support either side. It's a mess of confused motivations, lies and unspoken truths. 

 

I agree, I don't like how Sai is so involved in translating between the two. Sai explains Naruto's feelings to Sakura in the tent (falsely saying they rely on him too much) then goes on to explain Sakura's whole confession. Honestly, it seems to me that Sai embellishes on their feelings to each other so much – and tells the reader what to takeaway from their conversations — that the two really never recover. Sure Naruto saves her in the end. But the one thing that's abundantly clear is that neither understand each other, and Sai is firmly in between them. He's not just asking questions, he's telling each how the other feels. And if you think about it, Naruto and Sakura never have direct conversation like this again. Friggin' Sai.

 

I wonder, what would it be like if you removed Sai from the confession? If Sakura found out what happened to Naruto (getting beat up) and the plans for Sasuke, and was left to her own decisions without Sai's interference?

 

Sakura's confession:

 

So the idea that Sakura goes to tell him she loves him instead of 'they're going to kill Sasuke' has always seemed like an overt lie. They way it's drawn, the language used, etc. It's all meant to be shocking. And I guess that Kishimoto was hoping the shock would hide the stupidity of the whole thing. It clearly would NEVER work. EVER. You're right. The lie would only make the fact that she knows what's going to happen to Sasuke (or do it herself) much worse. Not ever better. Which why this is so massively out of character for Sakura who is so smart and level-headed about literally everything else — she's the smartest one next to Shika. And this is the dumbest plan ever. 

 

There is literally no pay-off. Either A) Naruto believes her and he goes home with her...and then she or the others go off to kill Sasuke. Or B) he doesn't believe her, and she goes off to kill Sasuke anyway. Her confession and Sasuke's assassination (whether by her hand or someone else's) have nothing to do with one another. Neither one hinges on the other.

 

But here, I don't fault Sakura...I really think this was just terribly bad writing. Kishimoto has warped both Sai and Sakura to get a confrontation between Sasuke and Naruto. There's some shock value in these exchanges, but they don't go anywhere for Sai or Sakura — Sai doesn't strengthen his bond to either Naruto or Sakura, come to better understand human character, or have the satisfaction of seeing two of his friends get together. Nor does Sakura save either Naruto or Sasuke from their fates. The whole confession is hot air with no results. The story continues on from this point, but it only revolves around Naruto and Sasuke. It never connects back up with Sakura or Sai's storylines again.

 

Naruto's response:

 

And when Naruto says that it has nothing to do with his promise to her, it's like..."come again??" So uh...when did this massive change of heart happen? It's why Sai came to her; it's why she's out there talking to Naruto; it's why he's been after Sasuke all along and why just took that massive beating for him. And now that's all over? He wants to save Sasuke for himself?

 

This part for me was huge. It just shot a hole straight through the middle of the story. Kishimoto dumped one of the main themes — keeping my promise — and did it straight up through Naruto's own words. It's crazy. (Looking back, I should've known here that Kishi didn't care about the integrity of the story/characters.) The promise...the one that they'd been building towards, what motivated Sai to go to Sakura and Sakura to go to Naruto...yeah, that promise? Oh, Naruto already got over that one. Kishi just forgot to let us know.

 

This is big because it completely throughs Naruto's whole motivation in relation to her out the window. He's basically saying that he's over Sakura. It's in everything he does and says to her in the confession too. This is not someone who is caring/loving/in love with her. I've said this before, but it's very telling that he says "I hate people who..." as a response to her "I love you." It's Sakura's confession — with lies built around some genuine emotions — but Naruto is definitely not in the same head-space as her. He's still obssessed with Sasuke. 

 

Some unspoken truths or 'what might have been' — from my pov

 

Sakura — So, I've always thought the first part of her confession was fake, meant to be overtly a lie and the doe eyes and quick, sweet words  make it clear. But after he rejects her, her temper flares, and I've always thought that part to be the real Sakura coming out. But interestingly, her words don't change. She's mad at him, but she means for him to come home with her, and she'll do anything to make that happen. She's called out in a lie, but she doesn't back down. It doesn't change anything. Through her actions she's showing real love, even though her words are obscuring it. And literally, she's not going to kill Sasuke out of kindness/love for him, duty to her village or wanting to spare their friends and her teacher. It's only to prevent Naruto from having to hate their village or their friends. Even after he rejects her — to her face and with the strongest language he's ever used to someone he's close to — she still leaves to go after Sasuke. For Naruto. And if that's not love then I don't know what is.

 

Naruto — I've always thought that Sakura was ahead of Naruto. From the beginning, she caught on faster, knew more, was one step ahead. He may have had more power, but that was it. I don't think it's any different here. She still ahead of him. The love that she's tacitly offering — doing the worst thing imaginable to protect him, and offering herself as the single spot that he will forever more direct all his hate — Naruto simply can't understand. He's still wrapped around Sasuke. In fact, he doesn't even bat an eye at Sakura's reasoning for lying to him. Just says 'I knew she was hiding something' and then proceeds to go back to obssessing about Sasuke again! He never once considers her, her reasons, her feelings or her words with the kindness that he would give her if her truly loved her the same way. 

 

It should have been Naruto saying he was going to kill Sasuke to protect Sakura instead. If he really believed Sakura loved Sasuke, and if Naruto really loved Sakura the same way, then he would have been saying 'I'm the other half of the team, I should be the one protecting you. I'll go after Sasuke so you don't have to.' Or that they would go together to stop him, since he realized they both felt the same way about each other, and this has only come to light through how far each would go to protect the other.

 

But Naruto never scratches beneath the surface of Sakura's feelings. He accepts that it's about the promise, and swiftly says the promise is over. That Sakura is wrong. That what he's doing he's doing for Sasuke alone. And that he wasn't thinking about her at all. 

 

It's thanks, but no thanks. He says he's over her. And that he's fixated on Sasuke, and Sasuke alone. 

 

So Sakura leaves, and Naruto finds out the truth, but it changes nothing about his feelings about Sakura. He's still completely focused on Sasuke. Yes, he goes to 'save' Sakura, but even that could be seen as going to save Sasuke as well. Or at the most to prevent Sakura from killing Sasuke and bearing that guilt. NOT because of his reciprocated love for Sakura that doesn't want to see her kill her true love just to protect him. It's still not about Sakura. Naruto goes and does save her, but it's completely about Naruto's feelings about Sasuke.

 

I always thought that this 'false confession' would one day be followed by a real one. One where Naruto's feelings finally caught up to where Sakura was (even though maybe even she didn't realize the depths of her own feelings at the time of the first confession.) But I always thought this confession was half of a larger whole. It begs to be completed actually. Naruto's true feelings are completely withheld. So there needed to be a parallel exchange at the end that is a 'true confession' — one motivated by Naruto, that catches Sakura by surprise, but changes the whole landscape. And one where the interfering teammate and the runaway teammate don't ruin it. And where the promise of a lifetime can adequately be completed as well — where Sai's foreshadowing comes full circle. Where the question 'How can I tell her when I can't even keep my promises' is finally answered. 

 

The fact that these whole themes are wiped away in this single out-of-character exchange and with Naruto's careless 'I'm over it' words, seems par for the course after the ridiculous ending. But I remember at the time thinking that this botched confession would certainly be answered with the right confession at the right time, with both characters fully developed and self actualized. And the fact that the stage is set for that 'true confession' for NS is what makes SS and NH all the worse.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

 

Ok - I never got a chance to respond in depth to the original post. And this is such a good thread because the confession could have been a interesting plot point in building towards NS. Or at least in laying the groundwork for Sakura's case for still 'loving' Sasuke after the ending is revealed. But it doesn't really support either side. It's a mess of confused motivations, lies and unspoken truths. 

 

I agree, I don't like how Sai is so involved in translating between the two. Sai explains Naruto's feelings to Sakura in the tent (falsely saying they rely on him too much) then goes on to explain Sakura's whole confession. Honestly, it seems to me that Sai embellishes on their feelings to each other so much – and tells the reader what to takeaway from their conversations — that the two really never recover. Sure Naruto saves her in the end. But the one thing that's abundantly clear is that neither understand each other, and Sai is firmly in between them. He's not just asking questions, he's telling each how the other feels. And if you think about it, Naruto and Sakura never have direct conversation like this again. Friggin' Sai.

 

I wonder, what would it be like if you removed Sai from the confession? If Sakura found out what happened to Naruto (getting beat up) and the plans for Sasuke, and was left to her own decisions without Sai's interference?

 

Sakura's confession:

 

So the idea that Sakura goes to tell him she loves him instead of 'they're going to kill Sasuke' has always seemed like an overt lie. They way it's drawn, the language used, etc. It's all meant to be shocking. And I guess that Kishimoto was hoping the shock would hide the stupidity of the whole thing. It clearly would NEVER work. EVER. You're right. The lie would only make the fact that she knows what's going to happen to Sasuke (or do it herself) much worse. Not ever better. Which why this is so massively out of character for Sakura who is so smart and level-headed about literally everything else — she's the smartest one next to Shika. And this is the dumbest plan ever. 

 

There is literally no pay-off. Either A) Naruto believes her and he goes home with her...and then she or the others go off to kill Sasuke. Or B) he doesn't believe her, and she goes off to kill Sasuke anyway. Her confession and Sasuke's assassination (whether by her hand or someone else's) have nothing to do with one another. Neither one hinges on the other.

 

But here, I don't fault Sakura...I really think this was just terribly bad writing. Kishimoto has warped both Sai and Sakura to get a confrontation between Sasuke and Naruto. There's some shock value in these exchanges, but they don't go anywhere for Sai or Sakura — Sai doesn't strengthen his bond to either Naruto or Sakura, come to better understand human character, or have the satisfaction of seeing two of his friends get together. Nor does Sakura save either Naruto or Sasuke from their fates. The whole confession is hot air with no results. The story continues on from this point, but it only revolves around Naruto and Sasuke. It never connects back up with Sakura or Sai's storylines again.

 

Naruto's response:

 

And when Naruto says that it has nothing to do with his promise to her, it's like..."come again??" So uh...when did this massive change of heart happen? It's why Sai came to her; it's why she's out there talking to Naruto; it's why he's been after Sasuke all along and why just took that massive beating for him. And now that's all over? He wants to save Sasuke for himself?

 

This part for me was huge. It just shot a hole straight through the middle of the story. Kishimoto dumped one of the main themes — keeping my promise — and did it straight up through Naruto's own words. It's crazy. (Looking back, I should've known here that Kishi didn't care about the integrity of the story/characters.) The promise...the one that they'd been building towards, what motivated Sai to go to Sakura and Sakura to go to Naruto...yeah, that promise? Oh, Naruto already got over that one. Kishi just forgot to let us know.

 

This is big because it completely throughs Naruto's whole motivation in relation to her out the window. He's basically saying that he's over Sakura. It's in everything he does and says to her in the confession too. This is not someone who is caring/loving/in love with her. I've said this before, but it's very telling that he says "I hate people who..." as a response to her "I love you." It's Sakura's confession — with lies built around some genuine emotions — but Naruto is definitely not in the same head-space as her. He's still obssessed with Sasuke. 

 

Some unspoken truths or 'what might have been' — from my pov

 

Sakura — So, I've always thought the first part of her confession was fake, meant to be overtly a lie and the doe eyes and quick, sweet words  make it clear. But after he rejects her, her temper flares, and I've always thought that part to be the real Sakura coming out. But interestingly, her words don't change. She's mad at him, but she means for him to come home with her, and she'll do anything to make that happen. She's called out in a lie, but she doesn't back down. It doesn't change anything. Through her actions she's showing real love, even though her words are obscuring it. And literally, she's not going to kill Sasuke out of kindness/love for him, duty to her village or wanting to spare their friends and her teacher. It's only to prevent Naruto from having to hate their village or their friends. Even after he rejects her — to her face and with the strongest language he's ever used to someone he's close to — she still leaves to go after Sasuke. For Naruto. And if that's not love then I don't know what is.

 

Naruto — I've always thought that Sakura was ahead of Naruto. From the beginning, she caught on faster, knew more, was one step ahead. He may have had more power, but that was it. I don't think it's any different here. She still ahead of him. The love that she's tacitly offering — doing the worst thing imaginable to protect him, and offering herself as the single spot that he will forever more direct all his hate — Naruto simply can't understand. He's still wrapped around Sasuke. In fact, he doesn't even bat an eye at Sakura's reasoning for lying to him. Just says 'I knew she was hiding something' and then proceeds to go back to obssessing about Sasuke again! He never once considers her, her reasons, her feelings or her words with the kindness that he would give her if her truly loved her the same way. 

 

It should have been Naruto saying he was going to kill Sasuke to protect Sakura instead. If he really believed Sakura loved Sasuke, and if Naruto really loved Sakura the same way, then he would have been saying 'I'm the other half of the team, I should be the one protecting you. I'll go after Sasuke so you don't have to.' Or that they would go together to stop him, since he realized they both felt the same way about each other, and this has only come to light through how far each would go to protect the other.

 

But Naruto never scratches beneath the surface of Sakura's feelings. He accepts that it's about the promise, and swiftly says the promise is over. That Sakura is wrong. That what he's doing he's doing for Sasuke alone. And that he wasn't thinking about her at all. 

 

It's thanks, but no thanks. He says he's over her. And that he's fixated on Sasuke, and Sasuke alone. 

 

So Sakura leaves, and Naruto finds out the truth, but it changes nothing about his feelings about Sakura. He's still completely focused on Sasuke. Yes, he goes to 'save' Sakura, but even that could be seen as going to save Sasuke as well. Or at the most to prevent Sakura from killing Sasuke and bearing that guilt. NOT because of his reciprocated love for Sakura that doesn't want to see her kill her true love just to protect him. It's still not about Sakura. Naruto goes and does save her, but it's completely about Naruto's feelings about Sasuke.

 

I always thought that this 'false confession' would one day be followed by a real one. One where Naruto's feelings finally caught up to where Sakura was (even though maybe even she didn't realize the depths of her own feelings at the time of the first confession.) But I always thought this confession was half of a larger whole. It begs to be completed actually. Naruto's true feelings are completely withheld. So there needed to be a parallel exchange at the end that is a 'true confession' — one motivated by Naruto, that catches Sakura by surprise, but changes the whole landscape. And one where the interfering teammate and the runaway teammate don't ruin it. And where the promise of a lifetime can adequately be completed as well — where Sai's foreshadowing comes full circle. Where the question 'How can I tell her when I can't even keep my promises' is finally answered. 

 

The fact that these whole themes are wiped away in this single out-of-character exchange and with Naruto's careless 'I'm over it' words, seems par for the course after the ridiculous ending. But I remember at the time thinking that this botched confession would certainly be answered with the right confession at the right time, with both characters fully developed and self actualized. And the fact that the stage is set for that 'true confession' for NS is what makes SS and NH all the worse.

Not to mention that it's another part one lesson that just gets thrown out the window - "look underneath the underneath"; basically, don't just look at the surface and immediately accept it as the absolute truth, but look at things carefully and you may find that things aren't what they seem at first glance. That's exactly what Naruto did there - he took everything purely at face value without thinking about it and considering that there might be more behind Sakura's words and actions, all because of his (Kishi's) obsession with Sasuke.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

Ok - I never got a chance to respond in depth to the original post. And this is such a good thread because the confession could have been a interesting plot point in building towards NS. Or at least in laying the groundwork for Sakura's case for still 'loving' Sasuke after the ending is revealed. But it doesn't really support either side. It's a mess of confused motivations, lies and unspoken truths. 
 
I agree, I don't like how Sai is so involved in translating between the two. Sai explains Naruto's feelings to Sakura in the tent (falsely saying they rely on him too much) then goes on to explain Sakura's whole confession. Honestly, it seems to me that Sai embellishes on their feelings to each other so much – and tells the reader what to takeaway from their conversations — that the two really never recover. Sure Naruto saves her in the end. But the one thing that's abundantly clear is that neither understand each other, and Sai is firmly in between them. He's not just asking questions, he's telling each how the other feels. And if you think about it, Naruto and Sakura never have direct conversation like this again. Friggin' Sai.
 
I wonder, what would it be like if you removed Sai from the confession? If Sakura found out what happened to Naruto (getting beat up) and the plans for Sasuke, and was left to her own decisions without Sai's interference?
 
Sakura's confession:
 
So the idea that Sakura goes to tell him she loves him instead of 'they're going to kill Sasuke' has always seemed like an overt lie. They way it's drawn, the language used, etc. It's all meant to be shocking. And I guess that Kishimoto was hoping the shock would hide the stupidity of the whole thing. It clearly would NEVER work. EVER. You're right. The lie would only make the fact that she knows what's going to happen to Sasuke (or do it herself) much worse. Not ever better. Which why this is so massively out of character for Sakura who is so smart and level-headed about literally everything else — she's the smartest one next to Shika. And this is the dumbest plan ever. 
 
There is literally no pay-off. Either A) Naruto believes her and he goes home with her...and then she or the others go off to kill Sasuke. Or B) he doesn't believe her, and she goes off to kill Sasuke anyway. Her confession and Sasuke's assassination (whether by her hand or someone else's) have nothing to do with one another. Neither one hinges on the other.
 
But here, I don't fault Sakura...I really think this was just terribly bad writing. Kishimoto has warped both Sai and Sakura to get a confrontation between Sasuke and Naruto. There's some shock value in these exchanges, but they don't go anywhere for Sai or Sakura — Sai doesn't strengthen his bond to either Naruto or Sakura, come to better understand human character, or have the satisfaction of seeing two of his friends get together. Nor does Sakura save either Naruto or Sasuke from their fates. The whole confession is hot air with no results. The story continues on from this point, but it only revolves around Naruto and Sasuke. It never connects back up with Sakura or Sai's storylines again.
 
Naruto's response:
 
And when Naruto says that it has nothing to do with his promise to her, it's like..."come again??" So uh...when did this massive change of heart happen? It's why Sai came to her; it's why she's out there talking to Naruto; it's why he's been after Sasuke all along and why just took that massive beating for him. And now that's all over? He wants to save Sasuke for himself?
 
This part for me was huge. It just shot a hole straight through the middle of the story. Kishimoto dumped one of the main themes — keeping my promise — and did it straight up through Naruto's own words. It's crazy. (Looking back, I should've known here that Kishi didn't care about the integrity of the story/characters.) The promise...the one that they'd been building towards, what motivated Sai to go to Sakura and Sakura to go to Naruto...yeah, that promise? Oh, Naruto already got over that one. Kishi just forgot to let us know.
 
This is big because it completely throughs Naruto's whole motivation in relation to her out the window. He's basically saying that he's over Sakura. It's in everything he does and says to her in the confession too. This is not someone who is caring/loving/in love with her. I've said this before, but it's very telling that he says "I hate people who..." as a response to her "I love you." It's Sakura's confession — with lies built around some genuine emotions — but Naruto is definitely not in the same head-space as her. He's still obssessed with Sasuke. 
 
Some unspoken truths or 'what might have been' — from my pov
 
Sakura — So, I've always thought the first part of her confession was fake, meant to be overtly a lie and the doe eyes and quick, sweet words  make it clear. But after he rejects her, her temper flares, and I've always thought that part to be the real Sakura coming out. But interestingly, her words don't change. She's mad at him, but she means for him to come home with her, and she'll do anything to make that happen. She's called out in a lie, but she doesn't back down. It doesn't change anything. Through her actions she's showing real love, even though her words are obscuring it. And literally, she's not going to kill Sasuke out of kindness/love for him, duty to her village or wanting to spare their friends and her teacher. It's only to prevent Naruto from having to hate their village or their friends. Even after he rejects her — to her face and with the strongest language he's ever used to someone he's close to — she still leaves to go after Sasuke. For Naruto. And if that's not love then I don't know what is.
 
Naruto — I've always thought that Sakura was ahead of Naruto. From the beginning, she caught on faster, knew more, was one step ahead. He may have had more power, but that was it. I don't think it's any different here. She still ahead of him. The love that she's tacitly offering — doing the worst thing imaginable to protect him, and offering herself as the single spot that he will forever more direct all his hate — Naruto simply can't understand. He's still wrapped around Sasuke. In fact, he doesn't even bat an eye at Sakura's reasoning for lying to him. Just says 'I knew she was hiding something' and then proceeds to go back to obssessing about Sasuke again! He never once considers her, her reasons, her feelings or her words with the kindness that he would give her if her truly loved her the same way. 
 
It should have been Naruto saying he was going to kill Sasuke to protect Sakura instead. If he really believed Sakura loved Sasuke, and if Naruto really loved Sakura the same way, then he would have been saying 'I'm the other half of the team, I should be the one protecting you. I'll go after Sasuke so you don't have to.' Or that they would go together to stop him, since he realized they both felt the same way about each other, and this has only come to light through how far each would go to protect the other.
 
But Naruto never scratches beneath the surface of Sakura's feelings. He accepts that it's about the promise, and swiftly says the promise is over. That Sakura is wrong. That what he's doing he's doing for Sasuke alone. And that he wasn't thinking about her at all. 
 
It's thanks, but no thanks. He says he's over her. And that he's fixated on Sasuke, and Sasuke alone. 
 
So Sakura leaves, and Naruto finds out the truth, but it changes nothing about his feelings about Sakura. He's still completely focused on Sasuke. Yes, he goes to 'save' Sakura, but even that could be seen as going to save Sasuke as well. Or at the most to prevent Sakura from killing Sasuke and bearing that guilt. NOT because of his reciprocated love for Sakura that doesn't want to see her kill her true love just to protect him. It's still not about Sakura. Naruto goes and does save her, but it's completely about Naruto's feelings about Sasuke.
 
I always thought that this 'false confession' would one day be followed by a real one. One where Naruto's feelings finally caught up to where Sakura was (even though maybe even she didn't realize the depths of her own feelings at the time of the first confession.) But I always thought this confession was half of a larger whole. It begs to be completed actually. Naruto's true feelings are completely withheld. So there needed to be a parallel exchange at the end that is a 'true confession' — one motivated by Naruto, that catches Sakura by surprise, but changes the whole landscape. And one where the interfering teammate and the runaway teammate don't ruin it. And where the promise of a lifetime can adequately be completed as well — where Sai's foreshadowing comes full circle. Where the question 'How can I tell her when I can't even keep my promises' is finally answered. 
 
The fact that these whole themes are wiped away in this single out-of-character exchange and with Naruto's careless 'I'm over it' words, seems par for the course after the ridiculous ending. But I remember at the time thinking that this botched confession would certainly be answered with the right confession at the right time, with both characters fully developed and self actualized. And the fact that the stage is set for that 'true confession' for NS is what makes SS and NH all the worse.

Well, Naruto's part through whole 2nd part is strongly stretched, one would think that Naruto would stop trying after 1st attempt (Where Sasuke without hesistating tried to kil all of them) in part 2, but both of them agreed to try one more time. All of Naruto's character was based around that he keeps his word. But now turns out that he does it for himself, for a friend he's... what connects them? Oh right, he saw Sasuke sitting alone when he walked home alone... okay.
Literally Naruto spent with Sasuke as much time as did Sakura, all of their interaction - goes from Team 7. Badly executed changing of character.

[Bail o' Lies]

Not to mention that it's another part one lesson that just gets thrown out the window - "look underneath the underneath"; basically, don't just look at the surface and immediately accept it as the absolute truth, but look at things carefully and you may find that things aren't what they seem at first glance. That's exactly what Naruto did there - he took everything purely at face value without thinking about it and considering that there might be more behind Sakura's words and actions, all because of his (Kishi's) obsession with Sasuke.

That's because nH's fans wanted to see it as a "False Confession," and they put a lot of energy into making sure as many people as possible believe it was a lie. They didn't even look at it at face value they rejected it from the beginning, without considering anything said for a moment, because it wasn't what they wanted. When the ending happened yes we kitten, but we gave the ending far more chances then they ever gave Sakura.

 

Well, Naruto's part through whole 2nd part is strongly stretched, one would think that Naruto would stop trying after 1st attempt (Where Sasuke without hesitating tried to kill all of them) in part 2, but both of them agreed to try one more time. All of Naruto's character was based around that he keeps his word. But now turns out that he does it for himself, for a friend he's... what connects them? Oh right, he saw Sasuke sitting alone when he walked home alone... okay.
Literally Naruto spent with Sasuke as much time as did Sakura, all of their interaction - goes from Team 7. Badly executed changing of character.

They really needed to spend more time on team 7 bonding. Kishimoto wanted that final battle so Naruto wasn't allowed to ever truly give up on Sasuke (at least not since Yahagi left.) Anything that could change or remove the final battle between Sasuke or Naruto had to be removed or ignore. Whether it be Sasuke's character arc, Naruto, someone else, themes, or even the very story itself. After that final battle happened, what was left was abandoned so Hinata could get what she wanted.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 11 October 2017 - 05:19 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

 

I agree on the second part mostly, though this was an issue while Yahagi was there, FYI, so I don't really get this implication of things falling apart when this guy left. They badly needed another early arc for Team 7 developing to fix a lot of later contrived things they did to fix the lack of justification of Naruto's wish to save Sasuke. This needed to be fit in pre-Chuunin Exam Arcs, but wasn't it editor pressure (Yahagi anyone?) That pushed this Chuunin Exam arc in the first place? 

 

The parts I disagree with are the costs of going to that final battle though make no sense, as Sasuke's character arc is resolved -through- that battle, and themes and Naruto's own long-goal is too. 

 

The first part though is odd. It -is- a false confession, and it -is- a lie, objectively so, and such speakers are from the general fanbase, not just NH, but even from our own. (Also how do you give the ending a "chance?" I would say legitimately this is the inverse of what you have said). 

 

I won't lie, like Tricksie, I also had wondered if there would be another True Confession, but as we got into the 600s, it was increasingly likely we wouldn't, because it just gets reiterated that Sakura loves Sasuke, and nothing really to feed into the theory that Sakura was beginning to love Naruto. So in retrospect, I feel like calling the scene OOC is not applying critical thinking. Why did it happen and what was he planning? I feel like no one asks these questions, or tries to tie it into what happens later in their retroactive analysis. We have the full thing now, we can tie analysis soundly into the flow. 

 

And taking in all of that, how do statements like "what was left was abandoned so Hinata could get what she wanted" make sense? For one that counts for so little of the end. By the weight of what it means to get what you want, I could say "The ending was ruined because Chouji got what he wanted. The ending was ruined because Shikamaru got what he wanted. The ending was ruined because Naruto got what he wanted. The ending was ruined because Sakura got what she wanted." It's easy to claim but if you just apply critical analysis you would see it's not like that at all, and is just a very, very, odd conclusion to make. 

It's not "falling apart once he left because he was holding it together" or "the true brain behind Naruto." Its that the editors that came after were not as good as him, and in one form or another help lead to the decline in quality in Naruto. There were many problems in the war arc. Yahagi was not perfect. The rush to the chunin exams was a mistake, and the slow over focus on Sasuke as well as the constant Itachi justification started near the end of his tenure, but he was better then his successors.

 

Sasuke had two routes after Itachi's death; realized the emptiness of revenge, or find a new target. One removes the need for the final battle, so to kishimoto that couldn't happen. So the only thing to do was find a new target that keeps Sasuke an antagonist. He chose the village as the new target.

 

Sakura had feeling for Naruto none of the characters questioned that. What they question was her claim that she was completely over Sasuke.

 

So chapter 630, and 631 meant nothing among many other chapters? 

 

The ending was rushed so they could end on the 700th chapter one month before Naruto's last movie.Chapter 700 was pretty much just promotional for the Boruto sequel. Chapter 699 was rushed. So that means that the canon movie that was released just a month after Naruto ended must be important or the true ending. The movie was SP trying to puff up Hinata as much as possible to get ride of any questions the she was not the true and perfect love interest as well as give her everything she ever wanted, which was Naruto. Also wasn't the last arc in the anime not chapter 700 but nH's wedding? While Naruto becoming hokage was stuck as a one shot promotional thing for the Boruto movie, then an ova, and then part of an episode in the sequel anime?

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 11 October 2017 - 06:02 AM.

[Yyubie]

I wonder, what would it be like if you removed Sai from the confession? If Sakura found out what happened to Naruto (getting beat up) and the plans for Sasuke, and was left to her own decisions without Sai's interference?

That is well said , i like to add to this. In Samurai X , when Enishi kill Kaoru , Kenshin goes mindbroken , his soul died with her death. But latter thanks to Aoshi and Misao it was revealed that her corpses is fake and she still alive. Misao then suggest that they must tell Kenshin about this. But Aoshi told her not to tell him .... why ? because he believes that if they told him about this , of course he will move and rescue Kaoru with all his might from Enishi but the backlash is he will think that he cannot protect her and will leave and continue to become a wanderer. Therefore Aoshi said that Kenshin have to fin the answer himself.

 

I think that is kinda similar to the fake confession in NS cases. Sai telling Sakura all of that is just gonna make her become more distant she will think that she don't deserve to be with Naruto because she will think she only cause him more pain. It's best for Sakura to find about Naruto feelings and her feelings for him on her own.

[ThroughWithLove]

I wonder, what would it be like if you removed Sai from the confession? If Sakura found out what happened to Naruto (getting beat up) and the plans for Sasuke, and was left to her own decisions without Sai's interference?

 

Potentially, I think Sai's involvement is great in that it relates to his own personal arc (better understanding human emotions) in how he is able to piece together what is arguably the most subtle and complex exchange of emotions in the series. So potentially (particularly the potential laid before us in chapters 457 and 458), I like the idea of his involvement. That and we've seen Sakura consistently confused about her own feelings towards Naruto, so I do think an intervening third party like Sai or Yamato is necessary to get the ball rolling That said, after the ball starts rolling, he doesn't need to keep interjecting his opinion (especially if it keeps contradicting itself).

 

I like the idea of Sakura confronting Naruto, but not for some confession, but to try and get him to give up on his promise to save Sasuke. Obviously, Naruto is not going to give up, but what's more important is that he most certainly isn't going to say anything to the effect of "It has nothing to do with the promise!" Because as you point out . . .

 

 

Naruto's response:

 

And when Naruto says that it has nothing to do with his promise to her, it's like..."come again??" So uh...when did this massive change of heart happen? It's why Sai came to her; it's why she's out there talking to Naruto; it's why he's been after Sasuke all along and why just took that massive beating for him. And now that's all over? He wants to save Sasuke for himself?

 

This part for me was huge. It just shot a hole straight through the middle of the story. Kishimoto dumped one of the main themes — keeping my promise — and did it straight up through Naruto's own words. It's crazy. (Looking back, I should've known here that Kishi didn't care about the integrity of the story/characters.) The promise...the one that they'd been building towards, what motivated Sai to go to Sakura and Sakura to go to Naruto...yeah, that promise? Oh, Naruto already got over that one. Kishi just forgot to let us know.

 

This is big because it completely throughs Naruto's whole motivation in relation to her out the window. He's basically saying that he's over Sakura. It's in everything he does and says to her in the confession too. This is not someone who is caring/loving/in love with her. I've said this before, but it's very telling that he says "I hate people who..." as a response to her "I love you." It's Sakura's confession — with lies built around some genuine emotions — but Naruto is definitely not in the same head-space as her. He's still obssessed with Sasuke. 

 

 

Naruto, the real Naruto, would never say anything like that in a million years. What the real Naruto would have said was "I don't care what you say! I'm keeping my promise no matter that!" And if Sakura is serious about getting him to give up on Sasuke, she could have certainly put more effort into it. Like maybe telling him  how foolhardy it is to keep single-mindedly chasing after Sasuke when Sasuke has made it more than clear that he has no interest in being saved and how he's part of the same group that nearly destroyed the leaf village no more than twenty chapters ago. We could then maybe get a fierce and passionate argument between the two resulting in both saying words they'd surely regret. In other words, legitimate, honest, tension. And a means of paving the way for both of them to eventually come to terms with just how much they care about one another.

 

 

Naruto — I've always thought that Sakura was ahead of Naruto. From the beginning, she caught on faster, knew more, was one step ahead. He may have had more power, but that was it. I don't think it's any different here. She still ahead of him. The love that she's tacitly offering — doing the worst thing imaginable to protect him, and offering herself as the single spot that he will forever more direct all his hate — Naruto simply can't understand. He's still wrapped around Sasuke. In fact, he doesn't even bat an eye at Sakura's reasoning for lying to him. Just says 'I knew she was hiding something' and then proceeds to go back to obssessing about Sasuke again! He never once considers her, her reasons, her feelings or her words with the kindness that he would give her if her truly loved her the same way. 

 

Yeah and it gets even worse when Sasuke almost kills the girl, only for Naruto to show no anger about it. Nothing. His reaction is more or less the equivalent to a parent reacting to their child needlessly flicking the lights on and off for a couple of seconds; he basically tells Sasuke to cut it out, if even that. The author is so obsessed with driving home this stupid bond with Sasuke that he doesn't even consider the possibility that he's making the title character look like an obsessive sociopath. Nope. Sakura is irrelevant. It's all about Sasuke. It's only about Sasuke. Hell, I'm convinced that Sasuke could have killed Sakura and Naruto would at most shed a few tears, if even that, before getting back on the "Sasuke cannot ever be held accountable for his actions" train. The one chance we have to seriously get down to the nitty grown of the bond between Naruto and Sakura . . . swept to the side all for the sake of unconvincing bond with Sasuke.

[Illnevergiveup3]

 

Potentially, I think Sai's involvement is great in that it relates to his own personal arc (better understanding human emotions) in how he is able to piece together what is arguably the most subtle and complex exchange of emotions in the series. So potentially (particularly the potential laid before us in chapters 457 and 458), I like the idea of his involvement. That and we've seen Sakura consistently confused about her own feelings towards Naruto, so I do think an intervening third party like Sai or Yamato is necessary to get the ball rolling That said, after the ball starts rolling, he doesn't need to keep interjecting his opinion (especially if it keeps contradicting itself).

 

I like the idea of Sakura confronting Naruto, but not for some confession, but to try and get him to give up on his promise to save Sasuke. Obviously, Naruto is not going to give up, but what's more important is that he most certainly isn't going to say anything to the effect of "It has nothing to do with the promise!" Because as you point out . . .

 

 

 

 

Naruto, the real Naruto, would never say anything like that in a million years. What the real Naruto would have said was "I don't care what you say! I'm keeping my promise no matter that!" And if Sakura is serious about getting him to give up on Sasuke, she could have certainly put more effort into it. Like maybe telling him  how foolhardy it is to keep single-mindedly chasing after Sasuke when Sasuke has made it more than clear that he has no interest in being saved and how he's part of the same group that nearly destroyed the leaf village no more than twenty chapters ago. We could then maybe get a fierce and passionate argument between the two resulting in both saying words they'd surely regret. In other words, legitimate, honest, tension. And a means of paving the way for both of them to eventually come to terms with just how much they care about one another.

 

 

 

Yeah and it gets even worse when Sasuke almost kills the girl, only for Naruto to show no anger about it. Nothing. His reaction is more or less the equivalent to a parent reacting to their child needlessly flicking the lights on and off for a couple of seconds; he basically tells Sasuke to cut it out, if even that. The author is so obsessed with driving home this stupid bond with Sasuke that he doesn't even consider the possibility that he's making the title character look like an obsessive sociopath. Nope. Sakura is irrelevant. It's all about Sasuke. It's only about Sasuke. Hell, I'm convinced that Sasuke could have killed Sakura and Naruto would at most shed a few tears, if even that, before getting back on the "Sasuke cannot ever be held accountable for his actions" train. The one chance we have to seriously get down to the nitty grown of the bond between Naruto and Sakura . . . swept to the side all for the sake of unconvincing bond with Sasuke.

 

 

yup, in my opinion, the real Naruto would have been ready to rip Sasuke's throat or anyone's throat who threatens Sakura-Chan, let alone tries to murder her. But as I pointed out, he loves her to pieces, but doesn't act like a man in love when it comes to Sasuke. The most anger I have ever seen Naruto show towards Sasuke was during the Exams and the War Arc. He would say, "Sasuke, you bastard." and that would be the end of it, instead of acting like a man in love and letting anyone including Sasuke know that if he lays a hand on or threatens the girl he loves, he'll kick their ass or even kill them if need be. That's what the real Naruto would do in my opinion.

[My Living Curse]

 

 

yup, in my opinion, the real Naruto would have been ready to rip Sasuke's throat or anyone's throat who threatens Sakura-Chan, let alone tries to murder her. But as I pointed out, he loves her to pieces, but doesn't act like a man in love when it comes to Sasuke. The most anger I have ever seen Naruto show towards Sasuke was during the Exams and the War Arc. He would say, "Sasuke, you bastard." and that would be the end of it, instead of acting like a man in love and letting anyone including Sasuke know that if he lays a hand on or threatens the girl he loves, he'll kick their ass or even kill them if need be. That's what the real Naruto would do in my opinion.

 

The funny thing is he became so obsessed with the Sauce in Part 2. In part 1 they were 2 teammates who couldn't get along well. How did that translate to being brothers and in love with each other? WTF.

 

What happened to the driving goal of being respected by the village and becoming Hokage?  And why did he tie saving Sasuke with that dream? Remember back in the Chunin Exams arc, when Gaara is undergoing that Shukaku transformation and he pins Sakura to the tree. Naruto's only concern is to do what he can to stop him and save her. While Sasuke just sits in the background.

 

If I could count how many times he said, "Sasuke this, Sasuke that" I'd have an entire manga. Oh wait...

[Kagomaru]

 

 

yup, in my opinion, the real Naruto would have been ready to rip Sasuke's throat or anyone's throat who threatens Sakura-Chan, let alone tries to murder her. But as I pointed out, he loves her to pieces, but doesn't act like a man in love when it comes to Sasuke. The most anger I have ever seen Naruto show towards Sasuke was during the Exams and the War Arc. He would say, "Sasuke, you bastard." and that would be the end of it, instead of acting like a man in love and letting anyone including Sasuke know that if he lays a hand on or threatens the girl he loves, he'll kick their ass or even kill them if need be. That's what the real Naruto would do in my opinion.

Tell me about it.  Compare this lackluster reaction to shonen leads like Kenshin when his love interest was threatened by someone who was technically family to him.

 

 

 

This is the type of immediate response a person would have if a loved one were threatened or actually harmed. But because Kishimoto has to keep pushing the latter themes of peace and forgiveness to their extreme, he has Naruto react in the most inconceivably unrealistic fashion.

 

For goodness sake, even Aang from Avatar  has shown more vitriolic reactions and his ideals are congruent with Naruto's in addition to being a pacifist monk. But he'll beat the crap out of anyone who hurts Katara or any of his friends and family.

Edited by Kagomaru, 11 October 2017 - 08:58 PM.