184 replies to this topic

[T XD]

The best thing in all of this debate is the magic talking octopus.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

1: Okay, no, a well crafted plot device can be noticed. This one annoys you, so right, you can have a problem with it, and that's fine.

 

2: The Gatekeeper does produce bubbles, but as he is an opponent, he is a separate obstacle.

 

3: If you rewatch it, this is because Toneri is waiting for Hinata's answer, so he disables them from going after them.

 

4: No, this is blatantly not speculation. This -is-. There is a metaphorical mirror being shown. If you read the book, it spells it out for you even, since apparently, you aren't getting it. I don't know how else to tell you that this is showing, not telling. I'm just explaining to you what is being shown, since you aren't getting it. Sure, they could have done something else, we can concede there were other options. But this one was neat, because it plays with Nostalgia for one, and its also works with the time constraints pretty well.

 

So not sure how to help you further, here.

 

1. If you're watching/reading a story because you want to watch/read a story and not because you're actively trying to pick it apart, you probably won't notice them.

 

 

2: The Gatekeeper does produce bubbles, but as he is an opponent, he is a separate obstacle.

 

He's a worthless obstacle dispatched with little effort. The only thing he had going for him was the genjutsu plot coupons he was passing out prior to being dispatched.

 

 

3: If you rewatch it, this is because Toneri is waiting for Hinata's answer, so he disables them from going after them.

 

I still don't see what that has to do with springing the trap in the first place. If the trap wasn't even necessary, all the more reason this is a lazy plot device.

 

By the way, here's a way to do the Magical Memory Dream Land bit without being a lazy plot device. Modify Toneri's plan. Make it to where he needs to enter the genjutsu himself and see specific past memories in order to advance his personal agenda. Give Naruto actual reason to enter Magical Memory Dream Land in an effort to stop Toneri from succeeding (and without Kurama immediately dispelling the genjutsu, which he should have instantly done here). Have Naruto stumble across the Hinata memories while he's trying to reach this separate but necessary goal. And bada bing, bada boom, Magical Memory Dream Land is no longer a shameless plot device.

 

 

4: No, this is blatantly not speculation. This -is-. There is a metaphorical mirror being shown. If you read the book, it spells it out for you even, since apparently, you aren't getting it. I don't know how else to tell you that this is showing, not telling. I'm just explaining to you what is being shown, since you aren't getting it. Sure, they could have done something else, we can concede there were other options. But this one was neat, because it plays with Nostalgia for one, and its also works with the time constraints pretty well.

 

So not sure how to help you further, here.

 

1. I don't know anything about the book nor should I be expected to read it. I watched the movie and in the movie, there is absolutely nothing about Naruto having always been in love with Hinata. As far as I'm concerned, the book is not canon. 

 

2. Even googling and looking up the relevant excerpt from the book, I still don't see anything about Naruto having loved Hinata the whole time and this other stuff about looking at a metaphorical mirror. Instead, it's just a realization of her love for him as a result of seeing her memories. It's upon having this realization that he falls in love with her.

 

http://honyakusha-er...hapter-2-part-2

 

3. You can keep saying "it's shown", but as we see from my multiple efforts to get you to cite to us where it's shown, it's not shown. So if it's not shown, what am I not getting exactly? Head canon? Perhaps we can query the crowd about this. Does anyone else reading this thread see where in the movie Naruto is shown to have been in love with Hinata the entire time, not just upon seeing her memories? I've set it to start at the memory scene:

 

https://youtu.be/_iNMWkkoevs?t=1450

 

If I'm wrong, I'm happy to admit I'm wrong here. I'm literally scratching my head here.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 09 August 2017 - 12:43 AM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

1: Not true? Plot devices can still be noticeable. Their effectiveness really is in their intrigue and not being a nuisance to the reader.

 

Probably and can are not mutually exclusive If the writer can immerse his/her readers well enough into the story, they probably won't notice the mechanics. If the author has succeeded in immersing me, I don't care. What may very well be a plot device feels natural and logical and I simply find myself thinking about what's going to happen next.

 

 

2: It doesn't matter the difficulty of the obstacle, really. This is actually part of the Hero's Journey, several obstacles as they go through the "Mouth of the Whale" as they call it, to enter the new world, which they do after this scene.

 

It matters in the sense of "Wait a minute, this serves no function or purpose beyond advancing the plot! Why is the writer insulting my intelligence?" You can slap the "Hero's Journey", "Mouth of Whale" or whatever you want to slap on it. At the end of the day, it has to feel natural; it has to feel like it's not contrived. Once you take into account how effortlessly they took out the Magic Crab and how this genjutsu trap exist nowhere else and doesn't even appear to serve a purpose (since Toneri didn't even bother using the opportunity to quickly seize Hinata or at least isolate her to question her), you start to see for what it is: A device to make Naruto fall in love with Hinata. A random love potion or a cupid's arrow if you will.

 

 

3: Toneri did not ask them to wait until -after- he asked Hinata, which was post trap. Notably, if they were all in the Genjutsu, he could have retrieved Hinata without any of them noticing. Also, by waiting for everyone to go but Hinata later in the scene, he got to address her and her alone.

 

I'm still not understanding what purpose the genjutsu even serves then. He could have retrieved Hinata without anyone noticing? Then why didn't he? He wanted to hear her answer? Then why bother with the trap? We run into a problem either way.

 

 

Also...Naruto -does- need to go through this Genjutsu, to reach the other side. None of them noticed it was a Genjutsu. Sakura resists and saves the party.

The Kurama part doesn't hold, because we're assuming that he can do so for every genjutsu..

 

I'm talking about making it plot significant by having Naruto enter of his own free will in an effort to stop Toneri from getting whatever information he's trying to retrieve. This would make the plot-induced-stupidity of Kurama not interfering make sense. Speaking of which:

 

 

 

On the Last Part, there is a clear line where he goes through his own realization in the book. You need to go ahead one more chapter if you want it nearly blatantly told to you if you can't understanding the showing.

 

I already checked. I don't see any clear line reflecting what you're talking about. I see a line that someone could try and use for head canon purposes, but nothing to support the notion that Naruto has loved the Hinata the entire time. Even in the book, it's still a matter of him finding out about her feelings for him then falling in love.

 

 

To help you a little, a little later in the memory, they start discussing ramen and love. Later, the scene is replayed with a tweak, and Naruto says, yeah, I really love Hinata. Why does he say this? Because he's understanding the difference in love, but also associating his feelings for Hinata with something that gave him joy and happiness when he was a kid, which is Ramen.

 

Well that's one interpretation. Another interpretation (and the one most people appear to have gotten from this scene) is that he's realizing that when Hinata said she loved him, it wasn't the kind of love he had for Ramen. The book illustrates this with:

 

 

Suddenly the scene changed to the battlefield with Pain. Hinata was standing up to Pain to protect the injured Naruto.

“I’m not afraid to die if it means I can protect you! Because… I love you Naruto-kun!”

She loves me? Love… Speaking of love, there’s ramen. I love ramen…

“I love you, Naruto-kun!”

No, Hinata’s “love” isn’t that “love”!

Hinata launched her juuho soushiken, but was mercilessly taken down by Pain’s Shinra Tensei.

“Hi-Hinata!”

In an instant, all of Naruto’s memories of Hinata ran through his mind like revolving lanterns.

So this means, the way Hinata feels about me… this means she… lo-lo-lo-

 

 

 

Source: http://honyakusha-er...hapter-2-part-2

 

See the "No, not that kind of love" part. It's as if to say to Naruto "NO, that's not what Hinata was talking about! She love LOVES you!"  I think that if the writer wanted to highlight what you're saying, there are a million ways to go about it in a pretty clear fashion. Either way, I don't see anything that clearly points to your explanation and plenty to contradict it even without using the manga. 

 

 

It's not Naruto falling in love with Hinata, it's Naruto falling in the love he already had.

 

I've seen this head canon reflected in fanfics and tumblr posts and I suppose I see the rationale behind it. After all, there seems to be a lot of outright hostility towards any notion that Naruto simply wasn't receptive to Hinata's confession, hand holding, etc, in the NH community. Blame Kishimoto though. No one put a gun to his head and made him exclude a scene where Naruto asks HInata out in chapter 699. Or maybe someone did? Who knows?

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 09 August 2017 - 04:21 AM.

[gamma]

No idea. Whether he planned it from the beginning, middle, end, whenever, I couldn't 100% tell. All the interviews he did didn't provide a solid answer to that, like a confident "yes, I did plan it like that and it was my intention, absolutely," sorta thing, consistently. And it sucks too, cause he left most of us still hanging, so now we have to come up with our own biased conclusions with what we have left, causing even more confusion and strife within the fandom. But do I think that he might have considered NS for at least a second despite him saying "haha jk"? Yes. He just didn't have the balls to admit it and instead played it off as bait.

 

I feel like the greatest ships in Naruto are the ones who either 1) got killed off or 2) wasn't "planned" to be together anyways. Like NaruSaku, SasuNaru, NejiHina (don't @ me), and so many more.

 

All these characters and pairings took on a life of it's own during the time. Like they got their own adventures, found their own dreams and were individually growing, until they started coming to life together in ways that even the mangakas might not have predicted, mainly because of pure, unexpected chemistry, along with that natural, sensible feeling that makes up real-life bonds and relationships. The authors just failed to notice or to understand that, imo.

 

NH & SS got the "ending" they wanted (and in a way, didn't), so kudos to them, they can have fun with that useless drama if they want. NS > all that bs any-frickin'-day ☕

[ThroughWithLove]

 

I'm not sure about your word of "Head-Canon", though, because it's largely shown. We cannot say what we read out of showing is head canon, and I think that is your mistake. For you to believe otherwise, it has to be told, summarized. That I think, is not a good thing to have things rely on. 

 

You say it's largely shown, but I frankly didn't see it. And I have nothing gain by not seeing it since I'd still dismiss the entire film as garbage storytelling either way. When asked to show me what you were talking about, you asked me to look at one scene (Naruto love Ramen and Hinata loving Naruto) and conclude without justification that it meant that Naruto loved Hinata all along. I just don't see that in the scene you're referring to. What I do see is that Naruto realized Hinata how deeply Naruto feelings for him, was touched and fell in love with her as a result.  That prior to that scene, Naruto saw Hinata as just another comrade (which we see when he refuses to walk her home, citing that she doesn't need anyone to walk her home). As a result, all I see from you is an explanation that goes beyond what is provided in the source material. We call explanations like that head canon. And given that NH happened in the end anyway, I don't see why it's a big deal for you and the rest of the NH fandom. 

 

 

Bee's words still don't work, simply because the Infinite Tsukiyomi largely renders that irrelevant anyway, there -are- Genjutsu where the Tailed Beast cannot simply break the Jinchuuriki out of. With that existing example, we can conclude that there are Genjutsus that can work on them. 

 

Bee had 8 tails extracted from him and thus didn't have it under his control at the time, so I don't put much credence in him falling under the spell of the infinite Tsukiyomi. But even if that weren't the case, infinite tsukiyomi is the most powerful genjutsu in the series and required a ying and yang seal from the Sage of Six Paths in order to be dispelled. Here, in the movie, Sakura dispels the Magical Memory Dream Land genjutsu with basic chakra flow disruption. Which as we can plainly see just by looking at the panel I provided with Bee, is something a tailed beast can do instantly and effortlessly. Tailed Beast >>>> Sakura, after all.

 

Moreover, even disregarding the above, what you've just explained to us would amount to a simpler avenue not taken or even addressed to solve the goal or obstacle in the plot and would therefore amount to a plot hole. It's not the audience's job to decipher whether there's some kind of special genjutsu in effect that keeps Kurama at bay. The story needs to provide such an explanation. It would then need to explain why Sakura > Kurama all of the sudden.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 09 August 2017 - 10:43 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

This sums it all perfectly and straight from Naruto the Last itself



This scene right here tells us 3 major important plots.
1. Naruto had no interest in Hinata what so ever to the point that her existence was insignificant and this was after her "confession" her "undying will to be with him" and all those other scenes of "pure love."

2. Naruto doesn't love Hinata. Any person with even the slight attraction to another wouldn't be asking questions like this. They would be instantly getting up and going to that person without having anyone say anything to them. Real love doesn't need to be told, people already know what to do even if they fail at it. Even jerks, at their core, will at least do some kind things in order to bait girls to them.

Compare this to Sasuke in Road to Ninja

Road to Ninja Rose

Now, Sasuke was a womanizer in this universe, but he at least did nice gestures. Flowers, charm, et cetera. He didn't miss an opportunity to be a lover boy. Even fakers can pull this off cause they acknowledge beautiful woman and want to be with them.

3. Naruto is oblivious to Hinata's existence. She is just...there. I mean, he doesn't brag about her. He doesn't go out of his way for her. He sees no reason or point to do anything. Not only that, but any gesture has to be pushed by another person....like a parent to a child. When Naruto thinks about his love for Sakura, he goes out of his way for her. To save her, to make promises to her, to comfort her, to be there for her. To do things out of instinct...not because someone told him to.

I am sorry, but to think any of this otherwise means that you,in a general sense, have no idea what love is about. You have no clue what love really is and only see love as a fantasy rather than a reality.

Love isn't always rainbows and butterflies. It's compromises, understanding, extra miles, and enjoying being with the person you are being with. If Naruto really loved HInata, he would be asking her to go out for drinks with him and want to hang out with her....which he never does and brag about how great of a wife she was. Instead, She is left at home.

That is not love. That will never BE love. Even if you have kids together, that doesn't mean you stop being two people. A very good friends told me once that marriage is three people. It's you, them, and both of you. It's not one person or the other. There is no love between Naruto and Hinata. All it is is a obligatory marriage because Naruto does not want to die alone. So does just enough to keep her around, but not enough to warrant having to go out of his way. Same with Sasuke and Sakura.

Compare this to the time that Naruto immediately drops everything for Sasuke. That's true love. Homosexual or just brotherly....that is love.

And if anyone says that this is not how love works then I am sorry, but then you have never truly been in love. If you look at your partner as a burden or "project that needs to be done" then you don't seem them as the person they are and person you supposedly love them for.

Love is not a burden that needs tolerance. Love is a life to be lived and Naruto is nowhere near living his life.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 09 August 2017 - 11:01 PM.

[sushi.]

You shouldn't double-post analyzer. Since its against the rules you might not be able to correct us again.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

1: It's not a headcanon still, it's what is being shown. You are asking for a very direct answer. Frankly, 1: In this culture, it's not given like that typically. I'm repeating myself at this point, but your argument is literally a -refusal- to read what you are being shown. Unless the material is holding your hand and literally telling you, it doesn't work for you. Nothing wrong with what the writers are doing. What is the problem, is the reader.

 

2: Also no, if you recall, Bee survives, through a part of the 8 tails, so he still had some of the eight tails in him. Even then, are we seriously putting forward an argument that a Jinchuuriki would be immune to the Tsukiyomi?

 

1.  Basically, it's not headcanon because you say so. It's shown because you say so.  And because readers can't see this, they are at fault. Yeah . . . if you can't show me where any of this stuff is, how about this: Get someone else to show me? Seriously, I invite anyone in this thread to show me what analyzer is talking about. I've watched the aforementioned scenes again and again and again and again and I'm not seeing anything to the effect that "Naruto was in love with Hinata throughout the manga and just didn't know it."

 

2.  Which explains Bee's survival, but the actual 8 tails entity has been extracted, as we plainly see on panel. So there'd be no one to disrupt his chakra flow for him. And yes, I am seriously putting forward an argument that Jinchuuriki in control of their tailed beast could dispel the Infinite Tsukiyomi's effects on themselves in light of the fact that this was never directly addressed in the original manga.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 09 August 2017 - 11:41 PM.

[Qia]

 

 

 

2. Naruto doesn't love Hinata. Any person with even the slight attraction to another wouldn't be asking questions like this. They would be instantly getting up and going to that person without having anyone say anything to them. Real love doesn't need to be told, people already know what to do even if they fail at it. Even jerks, at their core, will at least do some kind things in order to bait girls to them.

 

Correction: Naruto doesn't realize his feelings for Hinata yet. It's quite normal actually, particularly for an oblivious person, until they are in a situation where its spelled out for them, and they can process and react to it, or are able to look into themselves. Hence, later.

 

3. Naruto is oblivious to Hinata's existence. She is just...there. I mean, he doesn't brag about her. He doesn't go out of his way for her. He sees no reason or point to do anything. Not only that, but any gesture has to be pushed by another person....like a parent to a child. When Naruto thinks about his love for Sakura, he goes out of his way for her. To save her, to make promises to her, to comfort her, to be there for her. To do things out of instinct...not because someone told him to.

 

Correction: Naruto was rather oblivious to Hinata's existence... at first. But if you read the Manga, he gradually noticed her and came to admire her. I mean, points like 615 more or less dispel this whole thing? Yes, Naruto is a heroic person and helps out Sakura, and that's wonderful. The only thing is...it was a crush, sadly.

 

Only confusion about this: Even if he doesn't realize his feelings...if you're even a little attracted someone/interested in them and you don't realize that it's a romantic interest, wouldn't it make sense for him to at least once in a while seek her out just because he feels like seeing her or talking to her? Like in this scene in particular, it would have made more sense for him to be like "Oh hey Hinata's here. Haven't seen her in a while. Walking her home will probably give me a chance to talk to her. Plus she's such a nice person to be around." *cue audience eye roll here*. Instead what we're given is a...pretty much lack of interest in even talking to her or following up on that suggestion.

 Basically, shouldn't his actions still reflect this love even if he doesn't realize that what he feels is love? Let me give you another example, you admit later on that Naruto had just had a crush on Sakura. And it's because of those feelings that he naturally went out of his way to do certain things like talk to her or get excited at the thought of her feeding him when he couldn't eat etc. Yet, we don't really see similar actions from him here or in the manga (unless it was coerced like it is in this scene towards Hinata) . So, I *think* what James is trying to say here is something like this. 

 

Let me give another example from one of my favourite but really old shounen called Rurouni Kenshin. In chapter 11 volume 2 of Rurouni Kenshin, Kaoru is kidnapped by one of Kenshin's enemies. Now...at this point of the manga, it's hard to say what exactly Kenshin feels for Kaoru, but considering he talks to her respectfully as he does it's safe to say that they're pretty good friends. Yet, Jin'eh (the guy that kidnaps her) kidnaps her under the impression that she's his "woman" and that... well...I don't wanna get into the exact goal he's trying to accomplish cus it's a lot of explaining tbh xD. But let's just say he wants to bring out a really ugly side in Kenshin that he used to show in the past and that Kenshin had vowed he would never be like again. Funnily enough, this simple plan of his works. Kenshin almost gives in (or actually I think he does but Kaoru manages to snap him out of it). The important thing that I want to be taken out of this though is the fact that even though Kenshin and Kaoru's status is just as friends at this point, it's already telling that Kaoru is special to him. Enough that it takes her life being in danger to make him angry enough to go back to his old self. So, although it's too early to say that he likes her and, in fact, he speaks to her as a respected friend, you can already tell as a reader by this one huge action taken that she's special to him. 

Edited by Qia, 10 August 2017 - 12:01 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

 

Whoa, let me correct this.

Sorry, but I am stopping the post here because you don't know what love is. I do. I know exactly what true love is and if I were to write the longest post in my history of being on the internet about everything I know what love is about...I have no doubt that would would be nodding as they read.

To put it shortly

True love is not diamonds, rings, or money, victories, or even continuing your bloodline.
It's about buying and finding a certain type of lava lamp because her special one she had since collage decided to stop working.
It's about going to her job and bringing her lunch because you know how hard her work day is.
It's about being with her despite if your own parents hate her and disown you simply because they hate the fact you are with someone.
It's about doing the laundry when she is sick and take care of the house while she sleeps.
It's about drinking water at a party because she wants to let go of her stress and get drunk and you want to get her home safe when it is all done.
It's about driving two and a half hours to your old home because she lost a very special necklace that belonged to her grandmother and spending three more hours in the dirt looking for the smallest of charms.
It's about going to over 20 different wine shops and liqueur stores in three hours because she really wanted to give her a mother a very special rare wine that she likes for her birthday...and succeeding where others have failed.
It's about holding her hair back when she is vomiting in the toilet and still telling her with a genuine smile that she is the most beautiful person on the planet
It's about working extra hours on three hours of sleep because she lost her job due to a corrupt company and rent needs to be paid.
It's about proving yourself to her mother for 2 months straight that you are the man that she can trust her daughter to and you are rewarded by proposing to her with a very special ring from her great grandmother that would only be given to you if her mother trusted you with all her heart.

It's about doing all this because you wanted to be her hero even if your powers are limited. And when she looks at you with a big smile and the eyes of a person that says "How did I get so lucky?" It is right then and there that you learn that you are the Superman she has been looking for, despite thinking you act like Clark Kent.

None of this is what NH represents and it doesn't need to be a romance centric manga to represent this. This is not a overblown mind fantasy perfect world. It is a dirt covered, bruised, and maybe even bleeding heart kind of love, but it is a worth it for every moment. You don't regret the bad times. You just regret not spending enough time. 

And if all of this is over your head; If all this means nothing to you....then you don't know what love really is. Anyone here who had at least the taste of it knows what it all means. This is not NH. Not even in the slightest. Not a single moment scream romance to me, but almost every NS moment screams it. Every time Naruto goes out of his way for her...that is love. Everytime Naruto sacrificed his livelihood, not just his life, just so she could smile one more time is true love.

Hinata doesn't love Naruto because that implies she loved him more than she loved herself and even herself admitted that she is a selfish girl looking for attention. If Hinata truly was in love with Naruto as a person, then she should have been the one to push Naruto to Sakura and not the other way around.

Any idiot can sacrifice their life for the one they love.....not very many are willing to sacrifice their happiness for someone else's.
 

 

 

Only confusion about this: Even if he doesn't realize his feelings...if you're even a little attracted someone/interested in them and you don't realize that it's a romantic interest, wouldn't it make sense for him to at least once in a while seek her out just because he feels like seeing her or talking to her? Like in this scene in particular, it would have made more sense for him to be like "Oh hey Hinata's here. Haven't seen her in a while. Walking her home will probably give me a chance to talk to her. Plus she's such a nice person to be around." *cue audience eye roll here*. Instead what we're given is a...pretty much lack of interest in even talking to her or following up on that suggestion.

 Basically, shouldn't his actions still reflect this love even if he doesn't realize that what he feels is love? Let me give you another example, you admit later on that Naruto had just had a crush on Sakura. And it's because of those feelings that he naturally went out of his way to do certain things like talk to her or get excited at the thought of her feeding him when he couldn't eat etc. Yet, we don't really see similar actions from him here or in the manga (unless it was coerced like it is in this scene towards Hinata) . So, I *think* what James is trying to say here is something like this. 

 

Let me give another example from one of my favourite but really old shounen called Rurouni Kenshin. In chapter 11 volume 2 of Rurouni Kenshin, Kaoru is kidnapped by one of Kenshin's enemies. Now...at this point of the manga, it's hard to say what exactly Kenshin feels for Kaoru, but considering he talks to her respectfully as he does it's safe to say that they're pretty good friends. Yet, Jin'eh (the guy that kidnaps her) kidnaps her under the impression that she's his "woman" and that... well...I don't wanna get into the exact goal he's trying to accomplish cus it's a lot of explaining tbh xD. But let's just say he wants to bring out a really ugly side in Kenshin that he used to show in the past and that Kenshin had vowed he would never be like again. Funnily enough, this simple plan of his works. Kenshin almost gives in (or actually I think he does but Kaoru manages to snap him out of it). The important thing that I want to be taken out of this though is the fact that even though Kenshin and Kaoru's status is just as friends at this point, it's already telling that Kaoru is special to him. Enough that it takes her life being in danger to make him angry enough to go back to his old self. So, although it's too early to say that he likes her and, in fact, he speaks to her as a respected friend, you can already tell as a reader by this one huge action taken that she's special to him. 

 

I think you just got a new dog...and his name is BINGO.

And you can even add to the Kenshin thing where Kenshin went by himself to fight the big baddie laddie and Kaoru got upset because he didn't even say anything about it. Prior to leaving, he tells Kaoru that he has to leave and wants no one to follow him.

Later Takani Megumi, who was in love with Kenshin too, went to Kaoru with tears in her eyes and said to Kaoru that "(sic) out of all of the friends and loved ones, she was the only person he said goodbye to in person." This gave the realization and dropped the bomb that Kaoru was more special to him than any other character...despite him caring for so many and even fighting for others.

And this was a total Shonen manga and one of the best ever written. This is what I am talking about those little subtle moments of true pure romance. It is not overblown, but rather just enough to show how much someone truly cares. I remember this scene so much and I can imagine Naruto doing this to Sakura too despite Hinata being there and confessing.

That is what should have happened. It would have made Sakura's character better, it would have kept Naruto the character he has always been, and you don;t need overblown "life sacrificing" moves to force stuff to occur.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 10 August 2017 - 12:20 AM.

[tricksie]

 

This is a nice thought.

 

But namely in that scene Naruto is celebrating, sharing dinner with everyone. Hinata goes up and wants to go home, and Naruto doesn't pursue, because he understands that much, that she wants to go home, but not the social understanding of why. Cue once he has that understanding he... does these things. He doesn't really do these things to anyone, namely before this.

 

Interestingly the Hiden books do play this up and have Naruto and Hinata spend more time together pre-the Last.

 

 

... You know they're not in a relationship until the end of the Last, right? Like a lot of this is what you expect of an American couple, but... they're not a couple yet? You are -very- off in your analysis here.

No, and you have no place to say this. You have no authority over Naruto, or how other people interpret it. That is simply your opinion. And your response ignores the context and content of the post. 

 

Constantly telling people they're wrong — because you've decided their opinion is wrong — is not the same as 'agree to disagree.' 

 

We're a pro-NS site, and as a pro-NH fan you're welcome here. But only if you understand that trying to dictate what others can and cannot think about the manga is not going to go over well with members or mods.

 

Also, no double posting. Make any additions to your previous quote. Site rules.

[Yyubie]

I swear to god this person is even worst than Umbridge Dolores

[tricksie]

 

I'm fine with no Double Posting, and will refrain from it going forward....

 

But I'm going to stand that a tangent on what a couple should be like, when they are not a couple, and putting it into why a pairing doesn't make sense, when...they are not a couple, is poor construction. The weight of how poor it is, is my opinion. That it is poor construction, because it does not reinforce the point at hand, is not. 

 

It's the equivalent of someone working on a meal, and saying the meal is bad, because it does not look or act like a completed meal. 

 

Perfectly fine. That's you're opinion. And your are on a site that is built on a different foundation.

 

And just as you are asking me/us/members to respect or understand the reasoning you're presenting, then you must also present the same respect to others' opinions on the same story.

 

Most people here, myself included, view the story very differently. And nothing you have said so far — facts which I too have known all along — has swayed my thoughts a single bit. Kishi wrote a story that he didn't deliver on. No one is disputing how the story ended. Just that it wasn't what was promised.

 

To use your meal analogy, it's like ordering a deluxe cheeseburger from the menu, with fries and a soda and a slice of pie...and in the end the waiter brings you a side salad and a water. And then tells you that it was what you ordered. And what you read on the menu? Yeah, that wasn't there at all. You were just reading it wrong. It said side salad the whole time.

[lupina]

 

... You know they're not in a relationship until the end of the Last, right? Like a lot of this is what you expect of an American couple, but... they're not a couple yet? You are -very- off in your analysis here.

 

You just .... completly missed the point, and I'm seriously starting to wonder if you do that on purpose.

 

Everytime you don't seem to have an argument anymore you change the subject to a very similar one you can still make an argument of - even if it has been debunked/discussed before multiple times (and thus, we're running in circles).

[Qia]

 

This is a nice thought.

 

But namely in that scene Naruto is celebrating, sharing dinner with everyone. Hinata goes up and wants to go home, and Naruto doesn't pursue, because he understands that much, that she wants to go home, but not the social understanding of why. Cue once he has that understanding he... does these things. He doesn't really do these things to anyone, namely before this.

 

Interestingly the Hiden books do play this up and have Naruto and Hinata spend more time together pre-the Last.

 

Again...this just sounds like an excuse to me. You know why? Because if Sakura wanted to leave early from the celebrations, I promise you that not only would Naruto have taken notice of this but he also probably would have offered to walk her home without being asked. And if we were to go with the fact that his love for her wasn't even that serious, to begin with (because it's just because of Sasuke) the action would be telling enough to show just how much he at least considers her a friend and cares for her and just, in general, enjoys her presence. Now, I KNOW at this point NH isn't a couple, but the feeling of love and friendship should still be there, under the assumption that their previous development from the manga successfully establishes this level of their friendship. Because, if they're at this point not even close enough for Naruto to consider that, then the moment he realizes his feelings are something more will not be believable, at least to me. 

[sushi.]

Again...this just sounds like an excuse to me. You know why? Because if Sakura wanted to leave early from the celebrations, I promise you that not only would Naruto have taken notice of this but he also probably would have offered to walk her home without being asked. And if we were to go with the fact that his love for her wasn't even that serious, to begin with (because it's just because of Sasuke) the action would be telling enough to show just how much he at least considers her a friend and cares for her and just, in general, enjoys her presence. Now, I KNOW at this point NH isn't a couple, but the feeling of love and friendship should still be there, under the assumption that their previous development from the manga successfully establishes this level of their friendship. Because, if they're at this point not even close enough for Naruto to consider that, then the moment he realizes his feelings are something more will not be believable, at least to me. 

Yes, Naruto's lack of social intelligence were news to all of us. You couldn't have NH unless you rob him of that. He is smart in some ways and stupid in many but he always managed to understand others.

 

Finally, you don't need a reason to walk someone that you like home..you wanna hang out with them right? Everytime Sakura suggested something even out of pure friendship Naruto jumped with joy. The writers realized this when they made Naruto spend more time with Hinata before the last in the novels. XD Consider how he always spent time with Sakura because he wanted to, even if she could carry her shopping bags on her own, he did it for her because he liked her and because he wanted to.

[Namaenash]

True love is not diamonds, rings, or money, victories, or even continuing your bloodline.
It's about buying and finding a certain type of lava lamp because her special one she had since collage decided to stop working.
It's about going to her job and bringing her lunch because you know how hard her work day is.
It's about being with her despite if your own parents hate her and disown you simply because they hate the fact you are with someone.
It's about doing the laundry when she is sick and take care of the house while she sleeps.
It's about drinking water at a party because she wants to let go of her stress and get drunk and you want to get her home safe when it is all done.
It's about driving two and a half hours to your old home because she lost a very special necklace that belonged to her grandmother and spending three more hours in the dirt looking for the smallest of charms.
It's about going to over 20 different wine shops and liqueur stores in three hours because she really wanted to give her a mother a very special rare wine that she likes for her birthday...and succeeding where others have failed.
It's about holding her hair back when she is vomiting in the toilet and still telling her with a genuine smile that she is the most beautiful person on the planet
It's about working extra hours on three hours of sleep because she lost her job due to a corrupt company and rent needs to be paid.
It's about proving yourself to her mother for 2 months straight that you are the man that she can trust her daughter to and you are rewarded by proposing to her with a very special ring from her great grandmother that would only be given to you if her mother trusted you with all her heart.

 

This is probably one of the best line I've ever came across in this site, and I truly wish the person who did all those things above (if it's real) all the happiness and blessings in this world :)

[Qia]

 

This doesn't work though, because Sakura then does go walk with Hinata. Naruto does not join them. 

 

Further, Naruto's crush has faded by now, and I'm not sure if the rest works because of that. 

Why would Naruto join them when, for all he knows, they could be having a private conversation that has nothing to do with him? Furthermore, considering Sakura decided to walk with her and they're just friends (and not even as close as NH should be, if we're basing it on what little interactions they have in the manga), it warrants a confused reaction from the audience when Naruto isn't even interested in catching up with Hinata or interacting with her. 

 

And yes it would still work lol. Naruto wouldn't let Sakura, especially if she seems off like Hinata does in the scene, walk home alone this early into the celebrations. He just wouldn't, based on my understanding of his character and how he treats his closest friends and how close he is with Sakura, crush or not. 

Edited by Qia, 10 August 2017 - 02:39 PM.

[Qia]

It does...but now it makes me even more confused tbh xD. Because even if Naruto has these feelings for Hinata that he doesn't realize, he has shown before in the manga that there are social cues he understands. For instance, he understands, unlike Sai, what a big deal it was to be fed ramen by Sakura and especially Sakura. He also understood immediately (and was thus surprised) what kind of love Sakura meant when she confessed to him, but he's no fool and could tell for himself that there's no way Sakura doesn't love Sasuke anymore even if she hasn't said so since Part 1 and expresses otherwise now to him.

 

So what really really bothers me about this scene, now that I have the full context, is that basically Naruto is made to look like a bigger idiot than he actually just to put some humor into the movie.  

Edited by Qia, 10 August 2017 - 03:00 PM.

[Qia]

 

Naruto wanted to be fed Ramen by his crush, yes, playing into the NS theme of desire of acknowledgement to be... toppled down humorously thanks to Sai and Kakashi. But this moment does not equate an understanding of love. Naruto understands a kiss is romantic, so he knows what romantic affection is, he understands these actions are, but he does not understand love. He does get Sakura feels for Sasuke, and that she does not feel for him, thus why he calls her a liar. But he hasn't felt it himself, to understand it himself, so he does not understand he is in love with Hinata, does not have the context  to grasp it. 

So if Naruto understands romantic affection, but doesn't understand love when applied to himself, the context he needed to grasp this concept of love when applied to himself was what exactly? The genjutsu? 

 

Either way...usually what makes people realize that they've fallen in love with someone is in their absence. And while this doesn't necessarily have to apply to NH, there have been a lot of times where Naruto wasn't interested in whether Hinata was there or not. In fact, they barely interacted, to begin with, so...it's kind of hard to imagine him suddenly being like "wow my life would actually suck without this person in it" since she was barely in it, to begin with. 

 

Also, for me personally and others out there, it's...it's not possible to love someone without knowing it. You can feel free to disagree because there are people out there that think otherwise. But, I'm not one of them xD so NH will never make sense to me because of that I suppose. 

Edited by Qia, 10 August 2017 - 03:51 PM.