229 replies to this topic

[rocci]

The nice guy/bad boy polarity of Naruto and Sasuke is really terrible and gives out bad messages. That all women prefer bad guys who treat them like kitten when that is not true. Kishimoto only passes on the stereotypes.

Polarization like that exist in any form of entertainment. It's up to the maker to entertaining and/or meaningful.


It's called idolizations. It happen mostly in shoujo too.
The counter for it is harem. A group of woman fall for the wimpy boy for no reason at all.

Well that's kishimoto for you.

[questdrivencollie]

It's not a shonen thing, it's a kish thing.

Guess so. It's not true of all shonen. I would say to an extent it's true in the series I'm reading right now, at least with two of the female cast. (DBZ. It's a classic, yeah, and I can see why people like it. I like it, and that's after a lifetime of honestly thinking I would not enjoy it. But that doesn't mean it's perfect.) So I guess my mind is in that zone.

 

Because shounen manga is sexist with the exception of FMA.

One Piece? 

Then again, I haven't read or seen much of OP. But the female characters there seem strong and not based on sexist stereotypes.

 

@quest
Its goes both way, to male and female characters in shonen manga.
For sakura, it just kishi bad writing and characterization.

Hm, true. It just seems like it shows up a lot, but I guess there's confirmation bias and whatnot. There are probably more good female characters than I'm giving shonen credit for.

[AHK]

Guess so. It's not true of all shonen. I would say to an extent it's true in the series I'm reading right now, at least with two of the female cast. (DBZ. It's a classic, yeah, and I can see why people like it. I like it, and that's after a lifetime of honestly thinking I would not enjoy it. But that doesn't mean it's perfect.) So I guess my mind is in that zone.
 

One Piece? 
Then again, I haven't read or seen much of OP. But the female characters there seem strong and not based on sexist stereotypes.
 

Hm, true. It just seems like it shows up a lot, but I guess there's confirmation bias and whatnot. There are probably more good female characters than I'm giving shonen credit for.

Sometimes it's present, sometimes it's not, it just depends on the author. For instance, one piece is definitely not sexist, two of the women that we know of are among the strongest people in the world, not just strongest females, and a female is also the second (or tied for second) most important character in the series in regards to plot. Like literally, her presence is necessary for the crew to move forward.

There are a lot of shounens that are great with females, it's not just limited to FMA.

Edited by AHK, 13 May 2015 - 04:40 AM.

[rocci]

Urasawa naoki is make shonen mangaka who make great female characters.
Like ahk said, it always depend on the author.

@ahk
I don't think nami is the second important character. I think That's zoro.

[AHK]

Urasawa naoki is make shonen mangaka who make great female characters.
Like ahk said, it always depend on the author.
@ahk
I don't think nami is the second important character. I think That's zoro.

Yeah, that's why I said that you could argue that it was a tie. Honestly, I see it like:

1. Luffy
2. Zoro/Nami

Either one works for me. The point was that Nami is absolutely critical to the story.

[questdrivencollie]

Kishi has said he doesn't know how to write female characters. We always knew that the female characters in this series fell short a bit.

IDK, does he think female characters have to have some sort of emotional hangup that prevents them from accomplishing what the guys do?

[rocci]

Yeah, that's why I said that you could argue that it was a tie. Honestly, I see it like:

1. Luffy
2. Zoro/Nami

Either one works for me. The point was that Nami is absolutely critical to the story.

Nami is an ordinary girl who coward and greedy, but oda could develop her to become great heroine. Unlike kishi with sakura.

[AHK]

Kishi has said he doesn't know how to write female characters. We always knew that the female characters in this series fell short a bit.
IDK, does he think female characters have to have some sort of emotional hangup that prevents them from accomplishing what the guys do?

It's really not hard to write a female, it's just that Kishi is intellectually inept.

[Aizen-Sama]

Sometimes it's present, sometimes it's not, it just depends on the author. For instance, one piece is definitely not sexist, two of the women that we know of are among the strongest people in the world, not just strongest females, and a female is also the second (or tied for second) most important character in the series in regards to plot. Like literally, her presence is necessary for the crew to move forward.

There are a lot of shounens that are great with females, it's not just limited to FMA.

FMA is one of the best though. One Piece and Bleach have some pretty badass women but the lasivious big-boobed fanservice kinda kills it. Naruto and Death Note are both sexist as hell and DBZ is mostly just a bunch of guys. Nothing wrong with that but it does limit the amount of strong females in the genre.
It's not just about how "strong" the girls are but also their prominence and role in the story.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

FMA is one of the best though. One Piece and Bleach have some pretty badass women but the lasivious big-boobed fanservice kinda kills it. Naruto and Death Note are both sexist as hell and DBZ is mostly just a bunch of guys. Nothing wrong with that but it does limit the amount of strong females in the genre.
It's not just about how "strong" the girls are but also their prominence and role in the story.

And it's not like what few females there are are made weaker, but just that each new antagonist is exponentially stronger.

Like Android 18 may have been extremely powerful when she first appeared, able to effortlessly beat SSj Vegeta (who is arguably slightly stronger than even Goku was at the time, heart virus or not which, considering all the training Vegeta did in his obsessive quest to become a SSj, wouldn't surprise me), but as soon as Piccolo merged with Kami, Cell's arrival, and Android 16's sudden reveal of power, it was quickly overshadowed, and then we have the likes of Buu, SSj3 Goku, SSj3 Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, and (Super) Vegito, but she still remained, and still remains to the present, as powerful as she was when she first appeared and not dumbed down solely for the sake of making others look better.

[AHK]

FMA is one of the best though. One Piece and Bleach have some pretty badass women but the lasivious big-boobed fanservice kinda kills it. Naruto and Death Note are both sexist as hell and DBZ is mostly just a bunch of guys. Nothing wrong with that but it does limit the amount of strong females in the genre.
It's not just about how "strong" the girls are but also their prominence and role in the story.

Does the portrayal of the male body type also kill it for you then?

Anyway, the body type of women in series such as OP and Bleach mean little when you look at the actual meaningful impact of the women. As I've said, regarding OP, Nami isn't only strong, but she is absolutely essential to the plot, on top of being one of the smartest people to ever come from her quarter of the world, the same with Rukia. Specifically talking about the body types in OP, for both males and females, Oda operates on the extremes. Outside of civilians, I'm not sure if there's many people with just an average body type. I think he does it to illustrate that his world is pure fantasy, and helps to give a unique feel to his world. Not all of his women are big boobed supermodels, though.

[Aizen-Sama]

Does the portrayal of the male body type also kill it for you then?

Not really because you don't see Ichigo swinging his kitten around or Luffy flashing his chest. XD That last chapter in Bleach where Yoruichi stuck her hand in between Orihime's boobs was completely unnecessary.

[questdrivencollie]

It's really not hard to write a female, it's just that Kishi is intellectually inept.

He seems to think women think much differently than men. To some extent we are more emotional (and that's not always true), but not so much that it's actually impossible to understand. (And a lot of it has to do with society's conditioning.)

[Aizen-Sama]

He seems to think women think much differently than men. To some extent we are more emotional (and that's not always true), but not so much that it's actually impossible to understand. (And a lot of it has to do with society's conditioning.)

Yeah even guys have sexism forced on them, most of them are taught men aren't supposed to cry or show sensitivity when these are perfectly human traits.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Yeah even guys have sexism forced on them, most of them are taught men aren't supposed to cry or show sensitivity when these are perfectly human traits.

 

Exactly, MJ. It's such a double standard a lot of times.

[Aizen-Sama]

 

Exactly, MJ. It's such a double standard a lot of times.

 

I like that name MJ.    It excites me!!  What shall I call you? 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

I like that name MJ.    It excites me!!  What shall I call you? 

 

Bryon, Bry, or B works for me :) 

[AHK]

Not really because you don't see Ichigo swinging his kitten around or Luffy flashing his chest. XD That last chapter in Bleach where Yoruichi stuck her hand in between Orihime's boobs was completely unnecessary.

  
Considering every male in bleach aside from one isn't thin, lithe, and ripped? Or how in Naruto where only four males that I can think of arent flushed with muscle (Choji, Choza, the fat lard that was part of Sasuke's retrieval when he left the village, and Kisame's superior in the mist)? Hell, Sasuke only has a majority of his fanbase because of his looks. There's just as much, if not more sexism/fanservice in regards to male body types in any manga, not just shounen. The only reason no one talks about it is because they're men, so naturally no one cares.

He seems to think women think much differently than men. To some extent we are more emotional (and that's not always true), but not so much that it's actually impossible to understand. (And a lot of it has to do with society's conditioning.)

Apparently the japanese have been more conservative in the past, and Kishi seems to be cut from that mold so much that he cant tell when he's being extremely stupid. The man is an idiot.

Edited by AHK, 13 May 2015 - 06:07 AM.

[questdrivencollie]

To be fair, they do have to be physically fit for their line of work. But yeah.

 

Though, to some extent, big muscley guys is more about a power trip than sexual objectification...at least, from the male perspective. (Well, unless the guy is gay, I guess.)

Myself, I have never quite understanding ogling shirtless guys. I mean, I'm definitely attracted to guys, but I don't find shirtless or muscle-bound dudes enticing the way girls seem to be expected to. But then I have heard other girls who do like that, so....

[AHK]

To be fair, they do have to be physically fit for their line of work. But yeah.
 
Though, to some extent, big muscley guys is more about a power trip than sexual objectification...at least, from the male perspective. (Well, unless the guy is gay, I guess.)
Myself, I have never quite understanding ogling shirtless guys. I mean, I'm definitely attracted to guys, but I don't find shirtless or muscle-bound dudes enticing the way girls seem to be expected to. But then I have heard other girls who do like that, so....

That holds moreso for a 6 foot 7 mammoth of a man, that looks more like the Hulk than a normal human. The tall, skinny, lithe, corded type found rampant in Naruto and Bleach are geared toward "sexual objectification". Tiller often said that if Sasuke looked like Quasimodo, he wouldn't have half the fanbase. And he's right. The same arguments you can raise about the message of big boobed hourglass figures sent to girls, you can also argue the same for the same messages being sent to males, but no one actually cares about it. It's almost hard to call it a double standard, because it isn't ever brought up, it's consistently ignored.