244 replies to this topic

[rocci]

This is why Kishi ought to have adopted the whole "boss, sub-boss, minions" trope for each story arc. That way, relevant characters always get time to shine.

I agree.
In part 2 the bad guy is akatsuki and orochimaru faction. And even then naruto himself never fight all of them.

It's like a baseball manga but 90% of it play football.

[goldenarms]

 

Yep, it's a good backstory, too bad that it didn't really worked in Hinata's case thanks to the author, it basically didn't matter after part 1 and then later it was retconned

 

Nevertheless I don't think that being brought up in such circunstamces would cause someone to be shy and timid, each person is a different person, it's the same with characters. Look at Hanabi in early part 1, she was brought up in the same environment of Hinata and she was still different from her sister

 

That's because Hanabi is different from Hinata -- younger, and having a personality that is different from the older sister, as well as not having been the target of a kidnapping plot that resulted in the sacrificial death of her uncle.

 

 

Possibly, but this isn't really of any concern. Kishi could give Orochimaru, Kisame or Hidan that backstory for all I care. It isn't about how she could have turned out, but what Kishi could've done with her character. Here, I'm claiming that if Sakura were to have that backstory, the people who hated her character since the beginning might not have ended up hating her since her backstory would be a lot more sympathetic. This in turn may have prevented her from plummeting on the popularity polls.

 

I understand that point, but at the same time, I'm saying that the inclusion of such a backstory would fundamentally change Sakrua's character into something that is more sympathetic. Making her a kitten, and then handwaving it by saying, "Oh, she has really strict parents" does nothing to garner sympathy if her character does not reflect this. It's like all those fanfics that make Naruto uberly smart and powerful in the beginning, but STILL ends up on the same team as Sasuke and Sakura because reasons.

 

It might be weird to say change the ending pairing because that's only a small part of the bigger picture, but I too hate that Sakura's development was simplified to - when she's with Naruto=Awesome, strong, selfless, confident, opinionated etc..

and with Sasuke= Everything but. In many ways the opposite.

 

SS always put Sakura in a bad light, and NS put her in a good light. I think it's a shame, even tho it's one of the main reasons I prefer ns over ss. An example is how she went delivering a war speech to the whole shinobi army, and telling Naruto to treat her like the strong woman she is, to pleading Sasuke to give her a place in his heart, and not being able to speak properly with him after the war. Her development should've been done chronologically, not back and forth based on what boy she interacts with.

 

To be fair, it's sort of how people work in real life. Some folks build you up, while others, you leave yourself wide open to. And, sure, on a head level, Naruto would be a better person for Sakura to be involved with romantically, but on the heart level, she's totally devoted to Sasuke. It's why she couldn't bring herself to stab him in the back, no matter how much she knew he needed to be put down in order to be saved -- her heart would not permit it.

 

 

You know, fans got really biased against her in the beginning not bc she didn't fought at all but because it took Sakura quite some time to recognize her weakness. KIshi took too much time to introduce her resolve and then after her fight in the forest of death and against Ino he just forgot it

 

For example just look at what he did with Naruto, in his first "fight " against the demon brothers he was pathetic and needed to be saved by Sasuke, in his "fight "against Zabuza he developed, shoowed resolve and saved Kakashi.

 

If anything, this would be the major issue with Sakura. She's clearly the weakest out of her her team, but she does nothing to actually address this weakness until the end of Part One. Instead, she's more about having a date with Sasuke, even after he scolded her quite harshly in Chapter 3.

 

In short, she doesn't learn from her mistakes until it's too late, and it's hard to like someone that's unwilling to really help themselves. For all the complaints about Hinata, she was, at least, willing to improve herself or die trying (like, literally).

[Nar123]

 

That's because Hanabi is different from Hinata -- younger, and having a personality that is different from the older sister, as well as not having been the target of a kidnapping plot that resulted in the sacrificial death of her uncle.

 

 

 

 

I don't think the kidnapping incident had anything to do with her shy personality (it was never addressed as such) , and Hanabi was brought up in the same manner and behaved differently. I take it you agree with my point that even if Sakura had Hinata's backdstory her personality wouldn't turn out exactly like Hinata's personality was

 

 

If anything, this would be the major issue with Sakura. She's clearly the weakest out of her her team, but she does nothing to actually address this weakness until the end of Part One. Instead, she's more about having a date with Sasuke, even after he scolded her quite harshly in Chapter 3.

 

In short, she doesn't learn from her mistakes until it's too late, and it's hard to like someone that's unwilling to really help themselves. For all the complaints about Hinata, she was, at least, willing to improve herself or die trying (like, literally).

 

 

Ans this is Kishi main mistake. Sakura's a main character she should've been treated as such. After the chuunin exam incident in the forest of death we ought to see her take a more active role in training and looking for improvementon her skills, instead we still see her acting like a fangirl

 

Now at the end of part 1 we see a little bit of this, Sakura looking for imporovement, and coincidentally we have the best moment for Sakura that was early part 2 afterwards she was ignored by the author and was then brought back under the romantic plot device again smh, this was what hurt her character the most

 

Now I disagree with your point about Hinata. We didn't had that many insights on her. Just a little bit in the chuunin exam and then we got she saying she would get stronger too by the end of part 1 (like Sakura)

Come part 2 and Hinata is basically a flanderized aspect of what she was in part 1, not only she was more Naruto-driven than ever but she becomes essentially a pairing fodder. It was different than a character like Juvia from FT, Juvia is Gray- driven but that's treated as comedy, we had enough focus on Juvia to show that she cares for all her guildmates too, however with Hinata we have her being treated as a complete pairing fodder due to lack of focus on her character outside of "Naruto-kun" and the fandom loving her for it somehow

Edited by Nar123, 29 April 2015 - 05:07 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

I understand that point, but at the same time, I'm saying that the inclusion of such a backstory would fundamentally change Sakrua's character into something that is more sympathetic. Making her a b*tch, and then handwaving it by saying, "Oh, she has really strict parents" does nothing to garner sympathy if her character does not reflect this. It's like all those fanfics that make Naruto uberly smart and powerful in the beginning, but STILL ends up on the same team as Sasuke and Sakura because reasons.

 

 

I don't really think I can agree with that comparison. I'm saying "give her a sympathetic backstory" so that those who call her a "b*tch" are able to sympathize more with the character ("oh . . . maybe she acts this way for a particular reason); it explains an existing character trait in a way that keeps even her staunchest of haters from complaining. With the fanfics that make Naruto smart and powerful, it doesn't serve any purpose; it doesn't explain existing characteristics that have never been delved into nor does it add any depth to the character.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 29 April 2015 - 05:03 PM.

[Nar123]

 

I don't really think I can agree with that comparison. I'm saying "give her a sympathetic backstory" so that those who call her a "b*tch" are able to sympathize more with the character ("oh . . . maybe she acts this way for a particular reason); it explains an existing character trait in a way that keeps even her staunchest of haters from complaining. With the fanfics that make Naruto smart and powerful, it doesn't serve any purpose; it doesn't explain existing characteristics that have never been delved into nor does it add any depth to the character.

 Yep, kind of like we knew why Naruto behaved so annoyingly like that, we would get a reason for Sakura's kittenness too 

[goldenarms]

 

I don't think the kidnapping incident had anything to do with her shy personality (it was never addressed as such) , and Hanabi was brought up in the same manner and behaved differently. I take it you agree with my point that even if Sakura had Hinata's backdstory her personality wouldn't turn out exactly like Hinata's personality was

 

Sakura's personality wouldn't turn out exactly like Hinata's because Sakura is not Hinata. However, I can say with some certainty that they would be similar, particularly if she was bereft of Ino's presence. It's less likely if Ino's her friend, but that wouldn't completely obliterate the shy, retiring, pessimistic personality; it would simply be expressed in a different manner -- for example, she's high-strung and manic most of the time, but when the pressure's on, she falls apart like a house of cards in March winds.

 

No matter how you slice it, though, a Sakura with a Hinata background would most assuredly not turn out the way Sakura has. You can take that as a good thing, or a bad thing.

 

 

 

Ans this is Kishi main mistake. Sakura's a main character she should've been treated as such.

 

True. Of course, when developing her, Sakura's entire point was about "pursuing a selfish love" which he thought was "pretty realistic."* So, in short, she was meant to be pretty shallow and Sasuke-centric from the get-go, and the development Masashi gave her reflected that.

 

* Taken from his notes in the collections, so Kishi-haters can go, "That could be true."

 

Now I disagree with your point about Hinata. We didn't had that many insights on her. Just a little bit in the chuunin exam and then we got she saying she would get stronger too by the end of part 1 (like Sakura)

Come part 2 and Hinata is basically a flanderized aspect of what she was in part 1, not only she was more Naruto-driven than ever but she becomes essentially a pairing fodder. It was different than a character like Juvia from FT, Juvia is Gray- driven but that's treated as comedy, we had enough focus on Juvia to show that she cares for all her guildmates too, however with Hinata we have her being treated as a complete pairing fodder due to lack of focus on her character outside of "Naruto-kun" and the fandom loving her for it somehow

 

You can also argue Sakura herself was nothing more than pairing fodder. Team 7's VAs themselves even stated that Masashi told them upon their first meeting that SasuSaku was a lock. Yes, that includes Naruto's VA.

 

That said, I find it strange people say Hinata was Naruto-driven, as if she only wanted to be stronger because she was seeking his approval. Seriously, Hinata flat-out didn't like herself -- it was only because of Naruto being, well, Naruto, that she was able to take her first steps into becoming someone she could like. If her sole existence was only to gain Naruto's approval, she wouldn't have hid from him in Part 2; in fact, dare I say it, she might have taken cues from Sakura's pursuit of Sasuke, and then we'd have a stalker on our hands.*

 

Sure, Hinata's development is largely influenced by Naruto, but that doesn't mean that she did things because all she cared about was Naruto approving of her. She wanted to make her own path, be a person that she could face in the mirror and say, at the very least, "I don't dislike you." It just so happens that the guy that influenced her so strongly, and the guy that she likes are the same person.

 

* Anyone that says Hinata is a stalker or that she actively stalks Naruto knows nothing about stalkers and stalking.

[sushi.]

To be fair, it's sort of how people work in real life. Some folks build you up, while others, you leave yourself wide open to. And, sure, on a head level, Naruto would be a better person for Sakura to be involved with romantically, but on the heart level, she's totally devoted to Sasuke. It's why she couldn't bring herself to stab him in the back, no matter how much she knew he needed to be put down in order to be saved -- her heart would not permit it.

I can't believe you're trying to argue against me by admitting the problem. It is true that it is natural for people to be affected by others, but not to this extent, this is intentional definitely. ntm, Kishi admitted several times that she was ready to move on, 3 if I'm counting right. But he wouldn't let her because he is more sexist than Nash kittening Grieg.

[BlackBird19]

While Kishimoto is the main reason for Sakura's long time hate. It's also the fault of the fans and the way they read the manga. Sakura was condemned by a lot fans right from the start because of her initial personality. The fans locked her into that personality and never really followed her later development. Every time they saw her all they saw was early pt1 Sakura, not the Sakura she evolved into later.

 

The majority of fans who hated her character never viewed her the same way they viewed some of the others. While they gave the other characters a chance to grow from their starting points, they just refused to give Sakura's character the same chance. Her detractors hated her from the start and refused to believe that her character could ever be something of worth. They held onto that hate with a vice-grip and could not be talked out of it.

 

So to be honest the only way I could see for Sakura to have been more popular was to have given her a much better start. Such as not being so fan-girlish, less abrasive to Naruto and much more focused on truly becoming a ninja. That might've saved her from the initial hate that the fans just never really let go of.

[goldenarms]

I can't believe you're trying to argue against me by admitting the problem. It is true that it is natural for people to be affected by others, but not to this extent, this is intentional definitely. ntm, Kishi admitted several times that she was ready to move on, 3 if I'm counting right. But he wouldn't let her because he is more sexist than Nash kittening Grieg.

 

I find it strange people claim they don't listen to anything Masashi says because he lies, then turn around and point to interviews he gave that will justify their points. I feel most shippers held onto this thin hope that Sakura would wise up and ditch Sasuke for someone else (likely Naruto), no matter how silly and thinner that hope was getting. After Sakura's faux-fession, though, any hope of a NaruSaku ending was dead. The coffin was sealed with the ending of that arc, too -- Sakura, despite all her good intentions and desires to save Sasuke via death, could not go through with the kill, even when she had caught his so damn off-guard with such a critical hit almost certainly guaranteed, it scared the hell out of him when he realized it. More to the point, she decided to believe in the both of them, him and Naruto. At that point, she made her choice -- she was going to stick to Sasuke to hell till highwater, even if that meant she would be alone for the rest of her life.

 

That's pretty hardcore dedication. Nothing I could hope to pull off with any sort of intention because loneliness is scary business. But that's what she had decided to do with her life, so, hell, I'm going to applaud her and wish her all the luck I can give. I can no more tell her what to do, and as a person that writes, when characters come to life on you, you're no longer calling the shots -- they are. Anyone that thinks otherwise doesn't know their story as well as they think they do, hence why good stories come with such WTF crappy endings.

 

While Kishimoto is the main reason for Sakura's long time hate. It's also the fault of the fans and the way they read the manga. Sakura was condemned by a lot fans right from the start because of her initial personality. The fans locked her into that personality and never really followed her later development. Every time they saw her all they saw was early pt1 Sakura, not the Sakura she evolved into later.

 

The majority of fans who hated her character never viewed her the same way they viewed some of the others. While they gave the other characters a chance to grow from their starting points, they just refused to give Sakura's character the same chance. Her detractors hated her from the start and refused to believe that her character could ever be something of worth. They held onto that hate with a vice-grip and could not be talked out of it.

 

So to be honest the only way I could see for Sakura to have been more popular was to have given her a much better start. Such as not being so fan-girlish, less abrasive to Naruto and much more focused on truly becoming a ninja. That might've saved her from the initial hate that the fans just never really let go of.

 

Basically this

 

Also, there could have been a scene of Naruto saving Sakura early on from the Demon Brothers or Zabuza, much like Harry and Ron saved Hermione from the troll, and the scene changes how she interacts with the main character for the better. However, that exchange was dedicatd towards giving the readers a baseline idea of what to expect from the ninja of the Narutoverse, so saving the girl doesn't have much room in there.

Edited by goldenarms, 03 May 2015 - 12:05 AM.

[goldenarms]

While Kishimoto is the main reason for Sakura's long time hate. It's also the fault of the fans and the way they read the manga. Sakura was condemned by a lot fans right from the start because of her initial personality. The fans locked her into that personality and never really followed her later development. Every time they saw her all they saw was early pt1 Sakura, not the Sakura she evolved into later.

 

The majority of fans who hated her character never viewed her the same way they viewed some of the others. While they gave the other characters a chance to grow from their starting points, they just refused to give Sakura's character the same chance. Her detractors hated her from the start and refused to believe that her character could ever be something of worth. They held onto that hate with a vice-grip and could not be talked out of it.

 

So to be honest the only way I could see for Sakura to have been more popular was to have given her a much better start. Such as not being so fan-girlish, less abrasive to Naruto and much more focused on truly becoming a ninja. That might've saved her from the initial hate that the fans just never really let go of.

 

Basically this

 

Also, there could have been a scene of Naruto saving Sakura early on, much like Harry and Ron saved Hermione from the troll, and the scene changes how she interacts with the main character for the better.

[Nar123]

If Kishimoto was a good author he could make people like Sakura even with her bad personality at the beginning

[TouKen4Life3g]

If Kishimoto was a good author he could make people like Sakura even with her bad personality at the beginning

That's true.

[Nar123]

 

Sakura's personality wouldn't turn out exactly like Hinata's because Sakura is not Hinata. However, I can say with some certainty that they would be similar, particularly if she was bereft of Ino's presence. It's less likely if Ino's her friend, but that wouldn't completely obliterate the shy, retiring, pessimistic personality; it would simply be expressed in a different manner -- for example, she's high-strung and manic most of the time, but when the pressure's on, she falls apart like a house of cards in March winds.

 

No matter how you slice it, though, a Sakura with a Hinata background would most assuredly not turn out the way Sakura has. You can take that as a good thing, or a bad thing.

 

 

 

 

I don't agree on the "similar", as I said Hanabi was brought upon on the same environment as Hinata and still turned out different. Sakura's character would behave and act accordingly to her characteristics if she was in Hinata's position, so no your point of "similar" because of environment makes little to no sense.

 

Sakura with Hinata's background would only have her background, her characteristics and overall personality would be the same or with little tweaks, her personality as weak shy and timid before Ino is her own (not a copy of Hinata)  but she is not truly like that as the story itself demonstrated, we can infer that she would behave differently in Hinata's place because they are not the same characters and each character will be affected differently by a certain environment

True. Of course, when developing her, Sakura's entire point was about "pursuing a selfish love" which he thought was "pretty realistic."* So, in short, she was meant to be pretty shallow and Sasuke-centric from the get-go, and the development Masashi gave her reflected that.

 

* Taken from his notes in the collections, so Kishi-haters can go, "That could be true."

 

 

 

The development Kishi had to give her was supposed to lead her away from that since he OBVIOUSLY didn't want Sakura's character to be so hated, however what he tried to do instead?

"draw her more beautifully"

 

SMH

 

If you want a character to be likable you don't base her development in something that is selfish and is more likely to make readers hate that character if he/she has not another interesting chracter trait ( which isn't the case for Sakura, she is pretty "normal")

So as we see Kishi was wrong abot the way he developed SS since the beginning, and it only got worse with part 2, centering Sakura's development in the romance part of her character was the worst decision he could do

 

 

You can also argue Sakura herself was nothing more than pairing fodder. Team 7's VAs themselves even stated that Masashi told them upon their first meeting that SasuSaku was a lock. Yes, that includes Naruto's VA.

 

 

 The VA's also said a lot of pretty things about SS, like that Sasuke was afraid of his wife and daughter (LOL)...and look how the first chapter of Gaiden turned out ... it revealed Sasuke did not met his daughter yet so really take their opinion with a grain of salt, even if they said "NS bond is stronger than marriage"

 

 

And yes, unfortunately Sakura became a pairing fodder like Hinata

 

 

 

That said, I find it strange people say Hinata was Naruto-driven, as if she only wanted to be stronger because she was seeking his approval. Seriously, Hinata flat-out didn't like herself -- it was only because of Naruto being, well, Naruto, that she was able to take her first steps into becoming someone she could like. If her sole existence was only to gain Naruto's approval, she wouldn't have hid from him in Part 2; in fact, dare I say it, she might have taken cues from Sakura's pursuit of Sasuke, and then we'd have a stalker on our hands.*

 

 

 

Your arguments just showed how Hinata's a Naruto driven character, seriously we never got insights on her thoughts about herself, her teammates, her clan on part 2...only Naruto. She was flanderized, turned into a pairing fodder

Once again trying to compare Sakura and Hinata...c'mon, they have different personalities, Hinata never had the boldness to púrsue Naruto the same way the other fangirls did with Sasuke

 

It's okay if Naruto was an inspiration to her, that's cool, but the way it was constructed in the story made it so that her sole reason for living was getting together with Naruto    , we saw no motivation from her on things not relating to that, granted Hinata's a side character but clearly, she could've been better constructed and characterized like Shikamaru did. 

 

I specially don't agree with this 

 

"that she was able to take her first steps into becoming someone she could like"

 

 

Sorry...but did you watch the Last? Where is this proud Hinata who became someone whe could like  ? Srsly, I think maybe you are confusing yourself with the potential she portrayed in Part 1 but as I said she was flanderized in part 2 unfortunately

 

 

 

Sure, Hinata's development is largely influenced by Naruto, but that doesn't mean that she did things because all she cared about was Naruto approving of her. She wanted to make her own path, be a person that she could face in the mirror and say, at the very least, "I don't dislike you." It just so happens that the guy that influenced her so strongly, and the guy that she likes are the same person. 

 

I think you are letting your own personal interpretations affect how Hinata was represented in the story...we never got too much of a dive in her thoughts and when we did it was all "Naruto-kun, Naruto-kun, Naruto-kun", we never had focus on her thoughts about herself, or her clan or her friends aside from maybe one or two extra comments.

 

As I said Hinata was flanderized in part 2, one aspect of her ( her devotion and care for Naruto was taken and exaggerated) in Part 1 we could see it clearly she had a crush on him, but we also could see there was more things to Hinata's character than only this, however in part 2 her character became only that.

I blame Kishi for not knowing ow to write female characters decently, almost all of their goals or desires centers around a man or men in general while the same thing can't be said about men, I think the exception is Tenten but she didn't received that much of a focus

 

 

* Anyone that says Hinata is a stalker or that she actively stalks Naruto knows nothing about stalkers and stalking.

stalk 

  (stôk)

v. stalked, stalk·ing, stalks

v.tr.

1. To pursue or track (prey) stealthily: The lions stalked the zebra from the tall grass.

2. To follow or observe (a person) persistently, especially out of obsession, admiration or derangement.

3. To go through (an area) in pursuit of prey or quarry.

 

Now, are you going to say this doesn't fit Hinata ?

 

 

 

I find it strange people claim they don't listen to anything Masashi says because he lies, then turn around and point to interviews he gave that will justify their points. I feel most shippers held onto this thin hope that Sakura would wise up and ditch Sasuke for someone else (likely Naruto), no matter how silly and thinner that hope was getting. After Sakura's faux-fession, though, any hope of a NaruSaku ending was dead. The coffin was sealed with the ending of that arc, too -- Sakura, despite all her good intentions and desires to save Sasuke via death, could not go through with the kill, even when she had caught his so damn off-guard with such a critical hit almost certainly guaranteed, it scared the hell out of him when he realized it. More to the point, she decided to believe in the both of them, him and Naruto. At that point, she made her choice -- she was going to stick to Sasuke to hell till highwater, even if that meant she would be alone for the rest of her life.

 

That's pretty hardcore dedication. Nothing I could hope to pull off with any sort of intention because loneliness is scary business. But that's what she had decided to do with her life, so, hell, I'm going to applaud her and wish her all the luck I can give. I can no more tell her what to do, and as a person that writes, when characters come to life on you, you're no longer calling the shots -- they are. Anyone that thinks otherwise doesn't know their story as well as they think they do, hence why good stories come with such WTF crappy endings.

 

 

 

+The "Kishimoto's lies" that you are talking about refer to specific recent interviews because it makes no sense that some statements of those are the truth if we go back and read the story, however Kishi's words from before can't be taken as lies because at that time he mainly talked about things he tried to portray ( why would someone lie with that?) or things he would portray in the future.

 

+Sakura's confession is a funny thing, at the time Kishimoto said he tried to put her in more of a heroine like position and tried to portray a honest girl during her confession...yet the fandom in general made a different interpretation and Sakura's character was  sent  plummeting down once more. Either you believe Kishimoto's intentions or not... this should be enough proof to show how lost he was in his concept of heroine and good female character because te only thing he managed to do was bring more hate towards a main character.

 

+The thing about Sakura killing Sasuke it's that...well that's kind of another thing that doesn't makes sense...first it's said Sakura wanted to kill Sasuke because she loved him  but as he was evil and it hurt her to see him like this she had to put him out of his misery (this is awfully selfish btw) , then it's said Sakura didn't managed to kill him because she loved him...well then the logical conclusion is either that her love wasn't strong enough for her to not have the drive to kill him or not strong enough enough because she even considering klilling him in first place! The flashback she had of him, it was just a random moment of fangirling which really doesn't help the case of her so called "feelings"

Sakura never had that much of a connection with Sasuke, such as Naruto... she is awfuly selfish regarding him and Kishi never bothered to develop this

 

+No this is another one of your opinions that you tried to put it as facts...it's never said in the end of KS arc that Sakura chose to stick with Sasuke to the bitter end, it's only said that she chose to trust both Naruto and Sasuke and so she would stay out of their eventual conflict...this is horrible by the way, it goes against her main goal at the end of part 1 and makes her character look completely useless which is such a shame

 

 

+   Really?

You are not supposed to applaud an unhealthy obsession that only further damages her character, she has little reason to have such a big love for Sasuke in first place, KIshi specially made her love to be selfish and hopeless, logical progression would make this selfish type of love gone for good. For SS to be acceptable at least they had to be good friends in first place, they never really were much further than comrades during Sasuke's time in Konoha and because the amount of negativity it got from part 2 was too much, it had to re-start from zero

 

I will put this in RL terms, you know and is frineds with a woman and she has a overall sh*tty life with her husband/boyfriend/crush but she still pursues him for an unexplained reason, she still purses him in hope that one day he would change the way he treated her, she is fairly lively but near to this guy she has no self respect, she is taken by apathy and is sad all the time...would you still applaud this?? I know I would not, I would ask "Why the hell don't you stand up to him? Demand respect from him and if he doesn't give then cut your current ties with him, if you still care for him then be there as his friend if he wants... that's okay but right now it's obvious your current situation is horrible for you !

 

 

+And in the end you really tried to justify Kishimoto writing there huh? Pls

There is no such thing as characters coming to life and rulling the author, a good author is part of his characters, they know how each character will act accordingly to each situation and they don't let the characters take over the reins  of the story and lead to such a WTF endings because they managed to create  "a life of their own" 

 

 

PS= sorry if I sounded rude , it was not intentional. 

Edited by Nar123, 03 May 2015 - 06:45 PM.

[Tendo Ryuken]

stalk 

  (stôk)

v. stalked, stalk·ing, stalks

v.tr.

2. To follow or observe (a person) persistently, especially out of obsession, admiration or derangement.

Now, are you going to say this doesn't fit Hinata ?

only once. when naruto set off for training with jiraiya. the very last chapter of part 1.

 

back on sakura. ive been trying to convince peoples that kishi truly liked and cared of sakura, but ironically i cant even convince myself. just recently i remembered a conversation i had with someone on an online game a few years ago. if i recall correctly it was early part the war arc. lets say her name was momo. our conversation was like:

 

momo said to kill the naruto sasuke yaoi possibility and to fuel their rivalry yahagi suggested a girl as their team mate and possible love interest for both of them. but instead of using the design he already had (said design later given to hinata), kishi created a new female character (sakura) for this role because he is selfish and will never let the rival (sasuke) near hinata. the other thing momo said was kishi decided to make sakura the heroine because he was fully awared of his inability to write a good female character and he expected sakura to be naturally likable without alot of effort. and something like kishi wrote sakura's story to fit the plot while for some other it was the plot to fit their story.

 

i was just laughed of how riddicolous momo's idea was. and i only argued a little because i didnt take them seriously. but she said something that give me a chill to remember 'after the series ended you will realize i was right all along'. i cant help but thinking momo might be right. lets say i had been waiting for sakura's yin seal for along time. but the seal's timing dissapointed me big time. 3 years required to store the chakra. the war lasted for 2-3 days. but the seal completed just right after sasuke's arrival WTH was that? why did kishi bothered us with alot of wasted pages of tobito and rin's kitten while said pages would be much better for scene where sakura motivated to complete the seal for the incoming war? why did he named chapter 4 Hatake Kakashi not Haruno Sakura? for future tobito and rin idiotic drama?.

 

IF kishi cared of sakura. his creativity could handle the rest of the job. but she even slipped his mind... nuff said

 

PS im sorry if my post is a bit ranting. im getting emotional back then

[rocci]

@tendo ryuken
Hinata stalk naruto in childhood flash back.

Kishi is not creative. And two boys one girl oneside love triangle is nothing new in shonen manga. Especially if the said source of plag... I mean inspiration come from slam dunk.

And kishi is not creative.

And Hinata is not the first girl.

Edited by rocci, 03 May 2015 - 09:32 AM.

[Tendo Ryuken]

hmm. mind telling me which flashback?

 

as i said i was a bit ranting on my previous post. its not like i believe that girl(momo) said, or rather i dont want to believe it. its just frustating for me to unable to deny it, seeing how much kishi tought of naruto sasuke and kakashi/obito compared to sakura.

 

about the creative part. well currently theres no way to calculate creativity so i will not argue about that. the only thing i can say as a reminder is, manga industry in japan is a tough world and kishi survived there for 15 years and still counting

Edited by Tendo Ryuken, 03 May 2015 - 01:41 PM.

[Nar123]

only once. when naruto set off for training with jiraiya. the very last chapter of part 1.

 

 

 

Look

 

2. To follow or observe (a person) persistently, especially out of obsession, admiration or derangement.

 

 

"observe"

she was always seem observing Naruto from afar at times, specially behind trees

the childhood flashback Rocci mentioned is where Hinata is seeing Naruto training and then she witness his never giving up attitude, it's safe to say that she made a habit out of observing him constantly

Edited by Nar123, 03 May 2015 - 06:41 PM.

[Nar123]

 

as i said i was a bit ranting on my previous post. its not like i believe that girl(momo) said, or rather i dont want to believe it. its just frustating for me to unable to deny it, seeing how much kishi tought of naruto sasuke and kakashi/obito compared to sakura.

 

about the creative part. well currently theres no way to calculate creativity so i will not argue about that. the only thing i can say as a reminder is, manga industry in japan is a tough world and kishi survived there for 15 years and still counting

 

He survived thanks to his editors, like Yahagi. Pay attention to Kishi's current interviews, he reveals for example that fan favorite arcs like the chuunin exam and villains like Orochimaru didn't came from his own head but from his editors.

The story also began to fall down in quality after his main and original editor Yahagi left his team ( after Sasuke acquired MS ) because Jump promoted him.

 

Kishi is not creative, when he tries to be he fails. Part 2 was awfully bland, the consistent focus on the Uchiha clan got boring and uninteresting for some people, Kishi failed to convey consistent and interesting battles and good drama after his main editor left and this is a proof of his own shortcomings as an author and writer

 

 

 

 

 

back on sakura. ive been trying to convince peoples that kishi truly liked and cared of sakura, but ironically i cant even convince myself. just recently i remembered a conversation i had with someone on an online game a few years ago. if i recall correctly it was early part the war arc. lets say her name was momo. our conversation was like:

 

momo said to kill the naruto sasuke yaoi possibility and to fuel their rivalry yahagi suggested a girl as their team mate and possible love interest for both of them. but instead of using the design he already had (said design later given to hinata), kishi created a new female character (sakura) for this role because he is selfish and will never let the rival (sasuke) near hinata. the other thing momo said was kishi decided to make sakura the heroine because he was fully awared of his inability to write a good female character and he expected sakura to be naturally likable without alot of effort. and something like kishi wrote sakura's story to fit the plot while for some other it was the plot to fit their story.

 

i was just laughed of how riddicolous momo's idea was. and i only argued a little because i didnt take them seriously. but she said something that give me a chill to remember 'after the series ended you will realize i was right all along'. i cant help but thinking momo might be right. lets say i had been waiting for sakura's yin seal for along time. but the seal's timing dissapointed me big time. 3 years required to store the chakra. the war lasted for 2-3 days. but the seal completed just right after sasuke's arrival WTH was that? why did kishi bothered us with alot of wasted pages of tobito and rin's bullsh** while said pages would be much better for scene where sakura motivated to complete the seal for the incoming war? why did he named chapter 4 Hatake Kakashi not Haruno Sakura? for future tobito and rin idiotic drama?.

 

 

PS im sorry if my post is a bit ranting. im getting emotional back then

 

I don't really think so. I think Kishi is just clueless on how to write female characters, or even characters in general. The characters that got focus, got focus because of one single reason: popularity, that's the reason why Sakura's backstory was never fully developed or showed.

Kishi himself said that he was bothered by Sakura's unpopularity in an interview and tried to fix this by drawing her "beautifully" (LOL), so that means he expected her to be popular somehow and then though wrongly that she wasn't popular not because he screwed up her development and consistency but because he didn't draw her beautiful enough

 

The character design that ultimately became Hinata at the beginning was not anyone at first but a random civilian, it was just a sketch Kishi used for practice, like the first sketch of the "dog hokage" and the sensei that would become Kakashi with a few tweaks later on. I don't think he didn't had anything planned with that design, it's more likely that when it was time to introduce the rest of the rookies he remembbered his old design and decided to use it for someone

 

 

Now let me fix something for you
 

IF kishi was a good writer  and if he cared for sakura. he would be able to use his own ability to handle  the job and not those from his editors, he also had not to care so much for popularity, hell Sakura's character  even slipped his mind because she was not popular enough... nuff said

 

 

 

Now that completely makes sense 

Edited by Nar123, 03 May 2015 - 06:44 PM.

[sushi.]

There are several types of stalking, several "levels" and I think that is why this debate exists. Some people might think all stalking is possessive and dangerous, but it is not. So Hinata is a stalker, but I'd say she's a farely mild one. Her stalking is more unhealthy for herself than Naruto in fact. She's no Christian Grey, just a underdog struggling to come into her own.

Edited by sushi., 03 May 2015 - 06:52 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

"observe"

she was always seem observing Naruto from afar at times, specially behind trees

the childhood flashback Rocci mentioned is where Hinata is seeing Naruto taining and never giving up attitude, it's safe to say that she made a habit out of observing him constantly

 

Yeah, yet never doing anything to help Naruto and his feelings of loneliness, which is why I don't get why she didn't if she loves him.

 

 

There are several types of stalking, several "levels" and I think that is why this debate exists. Some people might think all stalking is possessive and dangerous, but it is not. So Hinata is a stalker, but I'd say is a farely mild one. Her stalking is more unhealthy for herself than Naruto in fact. She's no Christian Grey, just a underdog struggling to come into her own.

 

Agreed, Sushi. Christian Grey is THE WORST.