441 replies to this topic

[merryGOflava]

awww yeaaa

 

things be finally picking up!! 

Edited by merryGOflava, 26 December 2013 - 02:56 AM.

[melovechoco]

well, i hope that next chapter will be worth of waiting...kishi, suprise me with somethin else alredy...and I didn't expected this chapter is more about gaara and the shukaku....but im okay with it anyway...actually, right now..im thirsty for more madara next evil plan which include naruto in it...bcuz...more pressure means making this pairing much closer than evr....or may not..i guess let kishi doin his things this time...

[Kster95]

Am I the only one who didnt budge an eye with the last page, I mean I thought we all knew Naruto wont die from this. Kushina survived extraction from the full kyuubi while Naruto only got half extracted so he should definitely survive. 

[rocci]

well, it seem the narutoxuniqlo ova would really happen.

 

kishi explain the old priest, and killer bee do the same old trick again.

naruto is still high tier kage level with sage mode alone, he has a kage level chakra after all.

naruto without his kyuubi is like sasuke without his EMS. EMS is the answer for naruto jinchuriki fighting style.

 

and I'm still adamant with my prediction, that sakura will dying in this war arc.

[Tokura Misaki]

There's a high chance that Sakura will appear on the next chapter based on the last page. Hoping for dramatic NaruSaku moment.....

 

If Naruto will die, I think Tsunade will do the way like Chiyo did to Gaara but I'll feel so sad for her. 

[Phantom_999]

Merry Christmas everyone!!!!  I was happy with the new chapter well, except for Naruto losing Kurama at the end. Well I mean yes that opens possible NS moments and yes it makes seem things that much more hopeless, so I do like the drama about it but it also increases the chances of Naruto pulling off some dramatic miracle win by the power of friendship or something else Madara will get the TNJ. Think about it for a minute before we all say that NAruto losing the vast majority of his power is a completely good thing especially if you would get turned off by the latter 2 scenarios.. -__-

Edited by Phantom_999, 26 December 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[LuckyChi7]

Alright now that it's been about a good 10 to 12 hours since I read the chapter, I've started interpreting things regarding the next chapter. Yes there is three weeks until then, but this in particular relates to Sakura. I will do a discussion video on youtube soon, most likely friday, so just keep in mind about that. Besides seeing how we'll be on break for three weeks, I think it's a perfect opportunity for Kishi to determine where he wants to take the story after this massive cliffhanger. For sure Sakura will make an appearance due to the sudden shock of Kurama seperating from Naruto, but whether or not she'll receive a significant role like in Volume 66, we'll just have to see. I'll talk more about this topic in my upcoming discussion video.    

[soraandven]

well, it seem the narutoxuniqlo ova would really happen.

 

kishi explain the old priest, and killer bee do the same old trick again.

naruto is still high tier kage level with sage mode alone, he has a kage level chakra after all.

naruto without his kyuubi is like sasuke without his EMS. EMS is the answer for naruto jinchuriki fighting style.

 

and I'm still adamant with my prediction, that sakura will dying in this war arc.

i was waiting for someone to bring that ova up

[soraandven]

Kyuubi already got extracted and Sakura didnt interfered, Naruto cant win Madara with his own power alone.

It either Naruto will receive the power from Yondaim with the other half of the kyuubi or it's a set-up for Sasuke to save everyone.

or neither

[redragon88]

 

It's an analogy, simple as that. The two arguing points stem from different methods of attainment. One is going by previous feats shown in the manga, the other is arguing via the ambiguous and undefined claim of "it could happen". Rather than try and justify the standpoint of Naruto being a match for EMS Sasuke by claiming that it's not a foregone conclusion because it hasn't happened yet (despite it contradicting already established plot concepts when using your logic), you could try and base it off what we know regarding their abilities.  

 

Edit: I haven't been fully adhering to feats also. The claim that Sasuke has Perfect Susanoo is valid, but it's not set in stone yet, like you said. However, judging by what we know, Sasuke should still have the upper hand. 

 

But that goes back to creating hypothetical situations and, as I mentioned, it's not something I want to do.

 

Regarding to seeing it by manga plot, it's true that Naruto said he needed Kurama's power to beat Sasuke, but it didn't go into specifics of the confrontation. Maybe Naruto had the feeling that Sasuke would become extremely powerful (Perfect Susanoo level) one way or another in the future and so he needed Kurama for when that happened. That I can accept.

 

From what I remember Naruto didn't even see Sasuke using MS during the Summit arc, so he wasn't able to properly assess him. So I think is more that Naruto thought Kurama was necessary to fight Sasuke at his final level, which he still hadn't achieved during the Summit arc.

 

In the end a fight between EMS Sasuke (not perfect Susanno) and sage mode Naruto is left for speculation since it never happened. Discussion about it is fine, but there isn't a 100% guarantee one way or the other. This is all plot-wise, of course.

[Atheck]

But that goes back to creating hypothetical situations and, as I mentioned, it's not something I want to do.

No, you would rather allow Kishi to dictate the course of action for the characters. Which, I reiterate, he already has with Sasuke's superiority over the Naruto we're seeing being reborn currently.
 

Regarding to seeing it by manga plot, it's true that Naruto said he needed Kurama's power to beat Sasuke, but it didn't go into specifics of the confrontation. Maybe Naruto had the feeling that Sasuke would become extremely powerful (Perfect Susanoo level) one way or another in the future and so he needed Kurama for when that happened. That I can accept.

From what I remember Naruto didn't even see Sasuke using MS during the Summit arc, so he wasn't able to properly assess him. So I think is more that Naruto thought Kurama was necessary to fight Sasuke at his final level, which he still hadn't achieved during the Summit arc.
 
In the end a fight between EMS Sasuke (not perfect Susanno) and sage mode Naruto is left for speculation since it never happened. Discussion about it is fine, but there isn't a 100% guarantee one way or the other. This is all plot-wise, of course.

 

One of the mainstays of this manga has been understanding. For Naruto specifically, his capacity to understand those like Sasuke comes in the form of them exchanging blows with each other. He understood the mentality of Sasuke and how he acts. Even when they hadn't seen what the other is capable of for hundreds of chapters, Naruto felt certain that he was still too weak to confront Sasuke. Why would he say that if he didn't have any comprehension of Sasuke's own abilities at the time?

These were his exact words: "I can't defeat Sasuke at his current level. I just knew... Even what he was thinking." 
 
Take note of the bolded section. If you interpret this literally, then Naruto considers himself to be weaker than Sasuke. It's not like he's unfamiliar with the Mangekyou Sharingan. Kakashi would have a first-hand account of Sasuke's abilities considering that he was on the receiving end of Susanoo  and he informed Naruto of the existence of the Mangekyou in an earlier arc.
 
During his fight with Itachi and Nagato, Naruto warned Bee of the dangers of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. So it's obvious that he knows about MS techniques. It must have been a grave threat to Naruto if he's even warning Bee to avoid genjutsu (knowing full well that a jinchuuriki synchronised with his bijuu is impervious to illusions). Keep in mind that this is Naruto with KCM available to him so he would be stronger than when he admitted his inferiority to Sasuke preceding the war arc.

If Naruto is still feeling intimidated by MS even after his power up and his earlier statement hasn't been contradicted, then it's pretty safe to say that SM is still inferior to EMS.

Edited by Atheck, 26 December 2013 - 09:27 AM.

[redragon88]

No, you would rather allow Kishi to dictate the course of action for the characters. Which, I reiterate, he already has with Sasuke's superiority over the Naruto we're seeing being reborn currently.

 

That's how you see it and I won't force you to think differently, but as far as it all being clear cut 100%, my answer is still that it's not known since a fight never happened. I'm standing by that.

 

These were his exact words: "I can't defeat Sasuke at his current level. I just knew... Even what he was thinking."

 

This is when Naruto was talking to the rookies, right? Just curious.

 

I have a translation that says "I wouldn't have been able to defeat him... I knew that much", but the general idea is the same despite the difference.

 

The thing about that statement is that I really don't interpret it literally as you're wondering about me. Between Naruto and Sasuke it feels always more like a confrontation of morals and believes.

 

It felt like Naruto was talking more about beating Sasuke the proper way, which leads to his redemption. That even if they fought back then it wouldn't achieve anything, therefore not truly defeating him. Even when he told the rookies that he doesn't want them to fight Sasuke it felt less because they were weaker and more because only Naruto could get through to him.

 

But keep in mind this is just how I view it.

 

P.S. Has Sasuke used tsukuyomi at any point? I think he only uses genjutsu sharingan?

 

And why wouldn't Naruto warn Bee about sharingan techniques? Even if one is capable of properly countering them it's always important to stay alert about high level abilities.

Edited by redragon88, 26 December 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Atheck]

That's how you see it and I won't force you to think differently, but as far as it all being clear cut 100%, my answer is still that it's not known since a fight never happened. I'm standing by that.

Considering that Nauto's admittance is essentially Kishi's own word, you would be going against what the author intended. Believe what you want, but know that what's stated in the manga is canonical. SM Naruto is inferior to EMS Sasuke until it's said otherwise.
 

This is when Naruto was talking to the rookies, right? Just curious.
 
I have a translation that says "I wouldn't have been able to defeat him... I knew that much", but the general idea is the same despite the difference.

Is this a reference to the Viz translation? Many details are often left out in their work.
 

The thing about that statement is that I really don't interpret it literally as you're wondering about me. Between Naruto and Sasuke it feels always more like a confrontation of morals and believes.

This conversation has nothing to do with abstract metaphysical concepts. There's no substantial method for emotions or philosophies to play into the abilities of a character during a fight unless said abilities are influenced/powered by emotions like the Sword of Nunoboko or Kurama's power when Naruto's outbursts caused more of it to be released.
 

It felt like Naruto was talking more about beating Sasuke the proper way, which leads to his redemption. That even if they fought back then it wouldn't achieve anything, therefore not truly defeating him. Even when he told the rookies that he doesn't want them to fight Sasuke it felt less because they were weaker and more because only Naruto could get through to him.
 
But keep in mind this is just how I view it.

There was nothing like that ever suggested in that conversation though. Moreover, in #490, Naruto mentioned that he needed Kurama's chakra if he was going to fight Sasuke. There was no underlying meaning or context that suggested Naruto needed to be morally upstanding to match his opponent. He was referring to Kurama strictly in terms of his power and being able to properly control it (the idea of reforming Kurama didn't come until much later).
 

P.S. Has Sasuke used tsukuyomi at any point? I think he only uses genjutsu sharingan?

Genjutsu Sharingan and Shackling Stakes. It's not confirmed either way if he has Tsukuyomi. The point was that Naruto had knowledge of MS and what it was capable of.

And why wouldn't Naruto warn Bee about sharingan techniques? Even if one is capable of properly countering them it's always important to stay alert about high level abilities.

It's the graveness in his words that was most telling about how Naruto thought of those techniques. If you look at the panel, you'll notice that his concern stemmed from an impression that they would be "finished" if successfully hit by either one. It's not just a general warning, Naruto felt threatened enough to include that it could be the end of the fight if Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu successfully hit.

Edited by Atheck, 26 December 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[redragon88]

Considering that Nauto's admittance is essentially Kishi's own word, you would be going against what the author intended. Believe what you want, but know that what's stated in the manga is canonical. SM Naruto is inferior to EMS Sasuke until it's said otherwise.

 

Naruto's admittance is his own, and how we choose to see it is our own opinion. You believe what you want, but until an actual fight is shown there's no way to tell how it would exactly go down. That's canonical.

 

Is this a reference to the Viz translation? Many details are often left out in their work.

 

Nah, just another fan translation.

 

 

This conversation has nothing to do with abstract metaphysical concepts. There's no substantial method for emotions or philosophies to play into the abilities of a character during a fight unless said abilities are influenced/powered by emotions like the Sword of Nunoboko or Kurama's power when Naruto's outbursts caused more of it to be released.
 

There was nothing like that ever suggested in that conversation though. Moreover, in #490, Naruto mentioned that he needed Kurama's chakra if he was going to fight Sasuke. There was no underlying meaning or context that suggested Naruto needed to be morally upstanding to match his opponent. He was referring to Kurama strictly in terms of his power and being able to properly control it (the idea of reforming Kurama didn't come until much later).

 

Plenty between Naruto and Sasuke has emotion. And when Naruto talked to the rookies the factor of emotions was seen. I won't force you to see it as I do, but I see it clearly and, as I mentioned, I stand by that.

 

Naruto wants to beat Sasuke properly, but he's also aware that by letting him go he'll surely become stronger, thus in need of Kurama's power.

 

It's the graveness in his words that was most telling about how Naruto thought of those techniques. If you look at the panel, you'll notice that his concern stemmed from an impression that they would be "finished" if successfully hit by either one. It's not just a general warning, Naruto felt threatened enough to include that it could be the end of the fight if Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu successfully hit.

 

That's the point of being aware of high level techniques. One is able to counter, but only by being on guard, otherwise it's over. I don't know why you're making a bigger deal of the sharingan.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

Naruto's admittance is his own, and how we choose to see it is our own opinion. You believe what you want, but until an actual fight is shown there's no way to tell how it would exactly go down. That's canonical.

 

 

So you would go against a manga fact by forcing the benefit of doubt.
Rrrrrealllyy?

 

the manga was always like this, Sasuke stronger, Naruto powers up, Sasuke powers up, Naruto powers up, Naruto sage mode was nowhere near Sasuke's level at that time on the summit, because of his susano'o and amaterasu he needed Kurama's power which he clearly said on the manga, and with that it outclassed all Sasuke's jutsus, even Susano'o is no match to Naruto on kurama mode, and then it suggested that for Sasuke to catch up he at least needed senjutsu to merge with his susano'o.

And then you came here by denying a manga fact forcing a benefit of doubt with "until we see actual fight".
Dude i can counter every power level thread with this argument, or even say "until we see Naruto and Sakura kissing each other we can say who's going to be canon".

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 26 December 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Atheck]

Naruto's admittance is his own, and how we choose to see it is our own opinion. You believe what you want, but until an actual fight is shown there's no way to tell how it would exactly go down. That's canonical.

Again, you're relying too much on the "benefit of the doubt" when it was made clear what Naruto was referring to his own strength as he was receiving the means to fully unlock Kurama's power. Naruto obviously has a grasp of Sasuke's techniques and even when you judge it strictly by feats there's nothing in his arsenal that could handle Amaterasu or genjutsu.

Naruto was depending on Kurama to go up against Sasuke. That attack strategy was rendered void in just a few panels at the end of the last chapter so he hasn't had an opportunity to account for the losses and refine his other skills to somehow compensate for the decrease in power.
 

Plenty between Naruto and Sasuke has emotion. And when Naruto talked to the rookies the factor of emotions was seen. I won't force you to see it as I do, but I see it clearly and, as I mentioned, I stand by that.

Again, it was a matter of having insufficient power compared to Sasuke. Emotions didn't play into his responce. They were just an afterthought concerning the matter of his redemption.
 

Naruto wants to beat Sasuke properly, but he's also aware that by letting him go he'll surely become stronger, thus in need of Kurama's power.

 
What evidence from the manga did you use to arrive at this conclusion? As far as Naruto was concerned, he wasn't aware of EMS at the time. In fact, none of the Uchiha besides Madara, Tobi, and Itachi knew of its existence. Sasuke had only just learned of the possibility of a permanent Sharingan when Itachi mentioned it to him during their battle.

Given Naruto's reaction to MS and its techniques, he was likely referring to regular MS.
 

That's the point of being aware of high level techniques. One is able to counter, but only by being on guard, otherwise it's over.

When has Naruto has ever been known for being cautious? He's a fearless, headstrong idiot who jumps into the fray without a moment's notice. Frequently he doesn't take into account what his opponent is capable of (FRS against Nagato when he understood that ninjutsu was useless against HGR). For him to express any serious concern about his opponent's techniques isn't commonplace. He must have a grasp of the nature of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu (both of which can't be nullified without meeting certain conditions or having particular techniques) if he was willing to provide special attention to Itachi when he used them.
 

I don't know why you're making a bigger deal of the sharingan.

And I don't understand why you're so adamant in trying to deflect the context of Naruto's words to mean something that they don't.

We have the panel evidence and the quotes to substantiate that Naruto was referring to his power and abilities. This is sounding more and more like you're grasping at straws. Even Darkrest seems to agree with me about what Naruto meant. 

[redragon88]

@Atheck

 

Look, you have an opinion and I know you'll defend it as much as you want because that's how you are, but you're not going to change how I see it no matter how many paragraphs you want to write.

 

How about you let it go because you're really not going to get anywhere with this. I see it differently, and I accept that you don't share my views, so how about you just accept I don't share yours?

 

I was never interested in turning this into a contest of "let's see who's right", so I hope you don't go to that road either.

 

@Dαrkrєrsŧ

 

I guess I just see the power levels throughout the manga different than you. If you want to think my opinion is wrong you can go and do so.

[Atheck]

@Atheck
 
Look, you have an opinion and I know you'll defend it as much as you want because that's how you are, but you're not going to change how I see it no matter how many paragraphs you want to write.
 
How about you let it go because you're really not going to get anywhere with this. I see it differently, and I accept that you don't share my views, so how about you just accept I don't share yours?

Then why are you still responding to our posts? If you start an argument, be prepared for the opposing party to defend their opinions. I don't know what your intentions were but you were obviously trying to make a point of some sort.
 

I was never interested in turning this into a contest of "let's see who's right", so I hope you don't go to that road either.

No, it just sounded like you were trying to lend this perspective of inconclusiveness for whatever reason. That's just my impression though. I'm going by what the manga has established.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

 

@Dαrkrєrsŧ

 

I guess I just see the power levels throughout the manga different than you. If you want to think my opinion is wrong you can go and do so.

Actually i dont even care, i just dislike and i know that uses of fallacy doesnt add nothing to a debate on the contrary impoverish it, like using the benefit of doubt to disregard an manga fact aside from that i'm okay.

Because like you said i can even put Sakura and Madara on the same level just because they didnt had a fight.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 26 December 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[Inferno180]

So some bad news coming out of jump festa, from the naruto Panal,

Nothing pairing oriented but this is the sad news, Kishi doesn't know how Madara will be defeated yet. So this may be fairly long.