195 replies to this topic

[Atheck]

If sakura has more arsenal than I think it's okay for her to only gain the white seal.

The remains of her arsenal will probably consist of Sozo Saisei and/or Byakugou jutsu. Ideally it would be interesting to watch Sakura use Ranshinshou because it's a very underrated technique that happens to be very effective with scrambling the electrical signals in an opponent's body; that would essentially give you free reign to do whatever you please with them if they're unable to adjust to the scrambled reaction movements.
 

But I still believe sakura will gain ssm, but I don't know if she will gain in this arc or in the next arc.

If Sakura was going to develop Slug Sage Mode this would be the most appropriate time since the next arc, if there will even be one, is just resolution with the culmination of all the tears and struggles throughout the manga in Team 7's personal conflict finally coming to a head.
 

Just like the other said, I believe sakura will gain it through the seal. By release it seal sakura will gain temporary big chakra reserve. That's why I said ssm will become her triumph card.

You're free to explain how and why this is possible after everything that was already shown which argues against this claim from becoming a reality. It would be interesting to hear your theory on how Sakura logically acquires SM when abiding by the information given of Sage Mode's requirements and limits.
 

Oh and it will make fusion mode theory(bijuu mode + sage mode) to happen.

We saw glimpses of a potential FKSM back during the Invasion of Pain arc. Slug Sage Mode's existence would have no bearing on that.

[StriderC]

Anyone find it funny how Sakura's hair in the cover of vol 66 is longer than it is right now?
Otherwise, Ssm had more potential in the past but as for now, I would consider the white strength seal and the strength of 100 as the true power considering katuysu said it was linked to her. Just don't see Ssm as likely now after all that's currently happened, we still need to see if sakura is even at her max or releases her seal for a greater form of power like the strength of 100.

Strength of 100 only makes her a tank that can withstand attacks. I feel like now it'd be best if she took a different route.

[Codus N]

Unless it turns out that the Yin Seal is actually chakra infused with natural energy like the Curse Seal then I don't see how that would be possible. You create sage chakra when you're mixing physical stamina and spiritual energy together. That could only happen if chakra already created was alterable by mixing nature's force with it. A feat that's just speculation right now.

 

Actually, that's not what I meant. What I mean is, by releasing the seal, wouldn't it expand her chakra capacity? thus fulfilling the prerequisite needed to manipulate Natural Chakra and use Senjutsu? if the Byakugou seal's original purpose was for that alone then it's likely that gaining SM is possible for her through the release of the seal.

 

But of course, since the seal also has a time limit, I'd guess that even if she could enter SM, it'd be even shorter than what Naruto could do.   

[Jake]

 

Actually, that's not what I meant. What I mean is, by releasing the seal, wouldn't it expand her chakra capacity? thus fulfilling the prerequisite needed to manipulate Natural Chakra and use Senjutsu? if the Byakugou seal's original purpose was for that alone then it's likely that gaining SM is possible for her through the release of the seal.

 

But of course, since the seal also has a time limit, I'd guess that even if she could enter SM, it'd be even shorter than what Naruto could do.   

 

But the chakra stored in the seal is already molded, Senjutsu chakra must be made from Spiritual, Physical and Natural energy, you can't use chakra that is already molded.

[Codus N]

Sorry, I think I should've been clearer. What I mean is, by releasing the seal, wouldn't it allow her to gather and absorb Natural Energy as she has fulfilled the necessary chakra capacity through the releasing of the seal? As I said before, the seal acts more like an extra chakra battery for her, so wouldn't it expand her chakra capacity? allowing her to gather Natural Energy needed for SM and Senjutsu.

Edited by Codus N, 31 August 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[Jake]

Sorry, I think I should've been clearer. What I mean is, by releasing the seal, wouldn't it allow her to gather and absorb Natural Energy as she has fulfilled the necessary chakra capacity through the releasing of the seal? As I said before, the seal acts more like an extra chakra battery for her, so wouldn't it expand her chakra capacity? allowing her to gather Natural Energy needed for SM and Senjutsu.

 

Theoretically it could increase her chakra capacity but the amount of time it would take and how much it could increase it is unknown.

Of course the only evidence to support this is back in Part 1 when Ebisu said something about the way Naruto's seal works and how Kurama's chakra naturally leaks out into Naruto's chakra increasing his chakra capacity, but given all the variables in this such as Naruto being an Uzumaki already possessed a massive chakra capacity and that Naruto was being fed a constant feed of an unknown amount of Kurama's chakra for 12 years, these factors make it impossible to determine how much it increased Naruto's chakra capacity, so for Sakura, Naruto giving her a couple doses of Kurama's chakra would've had more of an effect then her seal.

[Dkey]

@atheck: What makes you believe that the chakra in her seal isn't usable. As others said she takes the chakra stored in the forehead flushes it in the body and mix it with natural energy.

[Hanabi]

I think Sakura could have sage mode coz of this early cover. imo just the circle symbol behind kid sakura is a great hint already.

 

from chatte deviantart:

[Codus N]

 

Theoretically it could increase her chakra capacity but the amount of time it would take and how much it could increase it is unknown.

 

I don't think it would take very much time at all as when Tsunade releases the seal, it's almost near-instantaneous. But if we're talking about quantity, that's a whole 'nother ballpark. Knowing Kishi though, I'd say he'll go "oh, the seal contains about as much as Naruto's base chakra level". It'd be a bit contrived, but at least it's a lot less contrived than suddenly revealing she has a better body type than Oro did, who couldn't even master it.

 

There's also another problem: the matter of actually developing it. But since Kishi has been disregarding gradual development for the sake of moving the plot along, then yeah it'll happen in the most rushed manner as possible.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I think Sakura could have sage mode coz of this early cover. imo just the circle symbol behind kid sakura is a great hint already.

 

from chatte deviantart:

 

The only similarity i can see is that, Hashi/ Madara earlier days rivalry are similar to Ino and Sakura's, i believe that's where he got the inspiration to do that.

[Atheck]

Codus, I think you're confusing the chakra with chakra capacity itself. It's like a glass of water. The contents fill the glass container to the brim. But because person A is very thirsty they try to put more water into the glass than what it can contain. It then proceeds to overflow and cause a mess. Why is this so? Because the glass was already at a limit for how much water it could hold. They didn't get a bigger glass, they just hoped the glass they already had would be sufficient enough. So even though person A had more water to drink, their glass wasn't able to contain it.

If you put that into terms which would describe Sakura's situation, her glass has already been predefined since she was born. Unless she were to inject herself with the DNA of someone who has naturally large reserves then there isn't anything she can do to change this because chakra capacity is internal. It isn't something that can be heightened through physical training or with additional chakra.
 

@atheck: What makes you believe that the chakra in her seal isn't usable. As others said she takes the chakra stored in the forehead flushes it in the body and mix it with natural energy.

Sage chakra is created during the chakra formation process. A renowned sage explained this and nothing of the contrary exists that would suggest otherwise. It's never been stated or hinted that you can combine premixed chakra with natural energy. There's really no ifs, ands, or buts about it. The process is straightforward.
 

I think Sakura could have sage mode coz of this early cover. imo just the circle symbol behind kid sakura is a great hint already.
 
from chatte deviantart:

We've seen other characters donning that exact same symbol before in the manga. It's probably just an indication of some enlightened state of being which anyone closer to the Sage of Six Paths have achieved. As for the other pictures, it's really stretching the boundaries of what is logical when many characters are shown in that exact same posture.
 

 

Not the most comparable of examples but you get the gist of it. Kishi often reuses character postures and features when he needs to. 

[Codus N]

Jinchuurikis would like to refute that.

 

As Jiraiya has said once, Naruto has two types of chakra. This would apply to all Jinchuurikis, When Jinchuurikis summon their Bijuu's chakra, it increases their capacity. Now, we know that Naruto's seal mixes his chakra with Kurama's naturally over time. But who's to say that's not the case for other Jinchuurikis? There's a reason why Gaara's stats in Stamina is equal to Naruto's.

 

And if Naruto's large chakra capacity is due to both types of chakra mixing together naturally, then wouldn't mixing the chakra stored in her seal with her regular chakra essentially increase her chakra capacity? just like the way Naruto's seal does.

 

Bottom line here is, it's about one's chakra stored in two different vessels. I'm not focusing on the "type", mind you. I'm focusing on the fact how both NS has two tanks of chakra stored separately and how they (can) mix together.   

 

Also, one can increase their chakra capacity through either training or other methods. One need to look no further than Kakashi.

 

Back in Part I, Kakashi was only able to use his Sharingan for a few minutes at best. Come Part II, he's able to last a whole day using it. If that's not him increasing his chakra capacity, I don't know what is. 

Edited by Codus N, 31 August 2013 - 05:17 PM.

[Atheck]

Jinchuurikis would like to refute that.

Humans that had entities forged entirely of chakra sealed into them who were said to increase the volumes of stamina of their vessel. Your refutation has a few unaccounted details to itself.
 

As Jiraiya has said once, Naruto has two types of chakra.

Although Kurama's presence does increase Naruto's reserves, the stamina he had at his disposal was exorbitant because of his Uzumaki heritage. Consequently, the option to develop Sage Mode would still be available to him.
 

This would apply to all Jinchuurikis, When Jinchuurikis summon their Bijuu's chakra, it increases their capacity.

Actually, whenever a bijuu releases their chakra it's been described as an overflowing torrent coursing through the circulatory system of the jinchuuriki. Releasing the 8 gates has a similar effect albeit to achieve that effect (temporarily) the limiters on stamina and energy are released. But I digress.

The bijuu can increase a human's natural capacity. In much the same way that Uzumaki or Senju DNA would bestow larger carrying capacities to someone who may little chakra of their own.
 

Now, we know that Naruto's seal mixes his chakra with Kurama's naturally over time. But who's to say that's not the case for other Jinchuurikis? There's a reason why Gaara's stats in Stamina is equal to Naruto's.

Of course, there is nothing to suggest that only the jinchuuriki of Kurama is subject to this change. Any jinchuuriki would logically experience the same phenomenon because they have a bijuu of their own enlarging their metaphorical gas tanks. People under unique circumstances receiving these boosts which they couldn't normally attain by themselves.
 

And if Naruto's large chakra capacity is due to both types of chakra mixing together naturally, then wouldn't mixing the chakra stored in her seal with her regular chakra essentially increase her chakra capacity?

No, because it's not a different source of chakra that she's receiving neither is there a separate entity connected to her body that is causing any fluctuations to her stamina levels. It's just her own chakra which she allocated to a seal on her forehead. If the seal were to be released the chakra would be dispersed throughout her body. No changes to the internal reservoir. There's just a greater quantity of chakra flowing through her that doesn't rectify the flaw with her insufficient carrying capacity when she is making chakra.
 

just like the way Naruto's seal does. Bottom line here is, it's about one's chakra stored in two different vessels. I'm not focusing on the "type", mind you. I'm focusing on the fact how both NS has two tanks of chakra stored separately and how they (can) mix together.

it's not a different source of chakra that she's receiving neither is there a separate entity connected to her body that is causing any fluctuations to her stamina levels.

That's the underlying flaw to this argument. Naruto's chakra has been commingling with Kurama's ever since he was an infant. There has been time for the enormity of Kurama's supplies to directly influence Naruto's personal capacity. He's able to use chakra taxing jutsu so liberally because of that influence. Without it, Naruto would still have above average reserves, but they would pale in comparison to what he has currently.

No such influence has been stated to exist with the Yin Seal and that would be arguing with baseless fabrications when looking for a connection that doesn't exist. It's like trying to use a battery that you purchased from a store to compensate for a generator at a power plant.

Also, one can increase their chakra capacity through either training or other methods. One need to look no further than Kakashi.

You're able to refine techniques and reduce their chakra expenditure which is what Kakashi has been trying to do with his Kamui ever since P2 began. He mentioned that it was imperfect when he tried to warp Deidara's head away in the Kazekage Rescue Arc. It's not that his chakra levels were somehow miraculously augmented over the course of a few weeks to a month.
 

Back in Part I, Kakashi was only able to use his Sharingan for a few minutes at best. Come Part II, he's able to last a whole day using it. If that's not him increasing his chakra capacity, I don't know what is.

That has to do with him lessening the strain the Sharingan had on his body which enabled him to maintain it for longer periods of time. We see numerous examples of this refinement process taking place. Sasuke and his usage of Amaterasu being a case in point. When he first developed MS it was a chakra intensive ability that caused his eye to bleed and his reserves to be drained significantly. Fast forward past several fights and testing the strength of EMS and now he's able to use Amaterasu as frequently as Naruto uses shadow clones with no bleeding of the eyes despite him bleeding (with EMS) as the black flames were created during the Kabuto fight.That's not a result of his own reserves increasing, no. It's because he managed to perfect the technique and reduce the strain it had on his own eyes to a minute discomfort (presumably).

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Humans that had entities forged entirely of chakra sealed into them who were said to increase the volumes of stamina of their vessel. Your refutation has a few unaccounted details to itself.
 

Although Kurama's presence does increase Naruto's reserves, the stamina he had at his disposal was exorbitant because of his Uzumaki heritage. Consequently, the option to develop Sage Mode would still be available to him.
 

Actually, whenever a bijuu releases their chakra it's been described as an overflowing torrent coursing through the circulatory system of the jinchuuriki. Releasing the 8 gates has a similar effect albeit to achieve that effect (temporarily) the limiters on stamina and energy are released. But I digress.

The bijuu can increase a human's natural capacity. In much the same way that Uzumaki or Senju DNA would bestow larger carrying capacities to someone who may little chakra of their own.
 

Of course, there is nothing to suggest that only the jinchuuriki of Kurama is subject to this change. Any jinchuuriki would logically experience the same phenomenon because they have a bijuu of their own enlarging their metaphorical gas tanks. People under unique circumstances receiving these boosts which they couldn't normally attain by themselves.
 

No, because it's not a different source of chakra that she's receiving neither is there a separate entity connected to her body that is causing any fluctuations to her stamina levels. It's just her own chakra which she allocated to a seal on her forehead. If the seal were to be released the chakra would be dispersed throughout her body. No changes to the internal reservoir. There's just a greater quantity of chakra flowing through her that doesn't rectify the flaw with her insufficient carrying capacity when she is making chakra.
 

it's not a different source of chakra that she's receiving neither is there a separate entity connected to her body that is causing any fluctuations to her stamina levels.

That's the underlying flaw to this argument. Naruto's chakra has been commingling with Kurama's ever since he was an infant. There has been time for the enormity of Kurama's supplies to directly influence Naruto's personal capacity. He's able to use chakra taxing jutsu so liberally because of that influence. Without it, Naruto would still have above average reserves, but they would pale in comparison to what he has currently.

No such influence has been stated to exist with the Yin Seal and that would be arguing with baseless fabrications when looking for a connection that doesn't exist. It's like trying to use a battery that you purchased from a store to compensate for a generator at a power plant.




You're able to refine techniques and reduce their chakra expenditure which is what Kakashi has been trying to do with his Kamui ever since P2 began. He mentioned that it was imperfect when he tried to warp Deidara's head away in the Kazekage Rescue Arc. It's not that his chakra levels were somehow miraculously augmented over the course of a few weeks to a month.
 

That has to do with him lessening the strain the Sharingan had on his body which enabled him to maintain it for longer periods of time. We see numerous examples of this refinement process taking place. Sasuke and his usage of Amaterasu being a case in point. When he first developed MS it was a chakra intensive ability that caused his eye to bleed and his reserves to be drained significantly. Fast forward past several fights and testing the strength of EMS and now he's able to use Amaterasu as frequently as Naruto uses shadow clones with no bleeding of the eyes despite him bleeding (with EMS) as the black flames were created during the Kabuto fight.That's not a result of his own reserves increasing, no. It's because he managed to perfect the technique and reduce the strain it had on his own eyes to a minute discomfort (presumably).

I dont know it very well but didnt kishi already broke some rules?

I mean first he said that only "special" people could become jinchuurikis, and we had Rin which had nothing of special and Minato who's not even a Senju or a Uzumaki and can control perfectly it's bijuu like Naruto if i remember well, when he sealed the kyuubi on himself and he could not even move due to the massive chakra.

[Atheck]

I dont know it very well but didnt kishi already broke some rules?

Not from what I can recall but something like that may very well have occurred. If you have a page number and chapter that gives examples of characters or events amending previously established rules then feel free to provide them.
 

I mean first he said that only "special" people could become jinchuurikis, and we had Rin which had nothing of special and Minato who's not even a Senju or a Uzumaki and can control perfectly it's bijuu like Naruto if i remember well, when he sealed the kyuubi on himself and he could not even move due to the massive chakra.

We don't know anything about Rin or what clan, if any, she hails from. Perhaps she's descended from a long line of warriors with exceptionally capable bodies like the Uzumaki; it's just an example though. Given what we know of Kirigakure's intentions for sealing Isobu they were probably expecting Rin to lose control of her body to the bijuu and as a result unleash it upon Konoha once she returned to the village. Obviously their plan failed but that would coincide with the stipulation of a jinchuuriki needing to be "unique" in some way in order to not die over the course of the sealing process or losing control over their body.

Minato was just a spirit consumed by the shinigami when he was infused with Yin Kurama. He resided in its stomach for 16 years before he was extracted by Orochimaru. Those aren't exactly the most conventional of circumstances for a human being. Moreover he became an immortal zombie with infinite chakra and a spirit bound to the form of a plant replicate of Hashirama. Having Senju DNA, especially Hashirama's, should speak for itself.

Edited by Atheck, 31 August 2013 - 11:03 PM.

[rocci]

I believe rin is a mean to become a jinchuriki bomb, and even if it's not, sooner or later three tail will free just like 8 tail host before killer bee.

Now for I don't understand what the truly requirement for sm, it is same or not.
Because when kabuto explain his snake sm he said that orochimaru failed to gain it because he didn't had the "body".
What's body? Is it same with chakra reverse or different? If so maybe each sm has different requirement.

[Atheck]

I believe rin is a mean to become a jinchuriki bomb, and even if it's not, sooner or later three tail will free just like 8 tail host before killer bee.

When you think about, Rin was indeed a perfect candidate for jinchuuriki status amidst a war. She's a medical shinobi of Kirigakure's enemy and because of her relatively inadequate form would not be able to prevent Isobu's influence from consuming her mind. The moment Rin was given the title of jinchuuriki she became a loose cannon that could go off at any moment. With Kakashi insistent on trying to hold off the hunter nin so reinforcements can arrive to try and save Rin it would have been a matter of time before the bijuu escaped from its imprisonment because handling such a delicate situation like extracting or subduing a bijuu so its host could survive would likely not be possible without coming to a village or city that has the proper equipment, knowledge, and people; that village being Konoha.
 

Now for I don't understand what the truly requirement for sm, it is same or not.

We were given an explanation by two senjutsu users about the prerequisites for Sage Mode. You need...

1. Large Chakra Reserves
2. A strong body
3. Indomitable willpower
 

Because when kabuto explain his snake sm he said that orochimaru failed to gain it because he didn't had the "body".
What's body? Is it same with chakra reverse or different? If so maybe each sm has different requirement.

This was discussed already. Although people with low stamina counts have managed to develop a natural energy gathering tool in the Curse Seal, the one requirement which only 10% of those whom Orochimaru tested survived has been coherent with all of the Sage Modes. Everyone who has ever attempted to use senjutsu was subject to this test and only those with a quality body could endure its effects.

If what Kabuto mentioned was related to chakra reserves then Orochimaru should have easily succeeded in fulfilling that stipulation because he's shown to use jutsu that are chakra heavy in cost with nothing but a smirk of amusement on his face; there wasn't any hint of stress caused by stamina exhaustion in any of the fights that he participated in. It stands to reason that he would be the first to master Sage Mode in that event.

What the context of "body" means is probably the same for how the Younger Son is described as having inherited the physical energy and body of the Sage. Resilience, strength, vivacity... All are qualities of everyone who has managed to successfully develop their own Sage Mode. Jiraiya is a towering man with highly developed taijutsu skill and powerful strength (he sent Naruto flying through the air and into a chasm with just a light touch of his finger), Kabuto wields the hereditary power of the Uzumaki Clan thanks to Karin's DNA, and Naruto/Hashirama is self-explanatory.

Edited by Atheck, 01 September 2013 - 01:20 AM.

[ramenanmitsu]

I'm one of the people who believes that Sakura is going to get a Slug Sage Mode. We haven't really seen what the requirements of Slug Sage Mode are, so I'm not going to spend my time discussing how she could fit/not fit in the criteria. Maybe she does/maybe she doesn't, we don't know.

 

And the double standards in this thread is a bit too much to fathom. Is this an anti-Sakura thread or something?

All I see in this thread are explanations of how it's totally understandable that Kishi made power-ups for other characters but the same should never apply for Sakura. I don't see the logic here. No amount of beautifully crafted wordings and lengthy sentences are going to deceive people into thinking that it's perfectly reasonable. 

 

The requirements of power-ups are explained while/after a certain character receives the power-ups(if they are explained). Sakura gaining byakugo no jutsu was explained after she got it. Naruto gaining the toad sage mode was explained while he got it. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is we don't know what the requirements of the power-ups are until they are explained. Saying these power-ups were predictable in the previous cases, after they were explained, sounds really convenient to me. The fact of the matter is, Kishi will explain when it happens, not before it happens. And I don't see the point of using character A 'technique B' to explain how it's impossible for character C to gain 'technique D' (It's like using Sasuke's chidori to explain how Naruto can't get a Rasengan). I thought it was obvious that different character uses different techniques and therefore the requirements are different....

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 01 September 2013 - 04:17 AM.

[Jake]

I'm one of the people who believes that Sakura is going to get a Slug Sage Mode. We haven't really seen what the requirements of Slug Sage Mode are, so I'm not going to spend my time discussing how she could fit/not fit in the criteria. Maybe she does/maybe she doesn't, we don't know.

 

There is not difference the requirements of the different Sage Modes, it there were then it would have been explained after Kabuto reveled Snake Sage Mode, but it wasn't. Why? because there is no difference.

 

The requirements of power-ups are always explained after a certain character receives the power-ups. Sakura gaining byakugo no jutsu was explained after she got it.

 

Then how come the "different" requirements of Snake Sage Mode were not explained after Kabuto reveled it?

 

 

Naruto gaining the toad sage mode was explained after he got it. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is we don't know what the requirements of the power-ups are until they are explained. Saying these power-ups were predictable in the previous cases, after they were explained, sounds really convenient to me. The fact of the matter is, Kishi will explain when it happens, not before it happens. And I don't see the point of using character A 'technique B' to explain how it's impossible for character C to gain 'technique D' (It's like using Sasuke's chidori to explain how Naruto can't get a Rasengan).

 

No Naruto gaining Slug Sage Mode took an entire arc of him training at Mount Myoboku where the requirements were explained.

 

I thought it was obvious that different character uses different techniques and therefore the requirements are different....

 

Then explain to me how the requirements for Snake Sage Mode differ from Toad Sage Mode.

[ramenanmitsu]

 

There is not difference the requirements of the different Sage Modes, it there were then it would have been explained after Kabuto reveled Snake Sage Mode, but it wasn't. Why? because there is no difference.

So your only reasons for the requirements for different power-ups to be the same is because, "they aren't explained"? That seems like a very weak reasoning for me. I'm not saying that it must be definitely 100% different, but I'm not going to assume technique A will automatically have the same requirements as technique B just because they weren't explained.

 

 

 

Then how come the "different" requirements of Snake Sage Mode were not explained after Kabuto reveled it?

I could easily refute saying that if it were the same, then how come the manga didn't say it was the same?

Especially when people will assume that different techniques will have different requirements.

 

Also I could give some examples how the two techniques were achieved differently. 

For one: The training place is different. Mybokuzan and Ryuchido

For two: The animals they trained with is different. Toads and Snakes. 

 

 

 

No Naruto gaining Slug Sage Mode took an entire arc of him training at Mount Myoboku where the requirements were explained.

That's why I said it is explained "while/after" they get it.

(It seems you quoted me before I edited my post.)

 

 

 

Then explain to me how the requirements for Snake Sage Mode differ from Toad Sage Mode.

Already did above. 

 

Now explain to me how the requirements for toad sage mode and snake sage mode are the same. Do you have the manga panels to prove they were achieved in the same way?

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 01 September 2013 - 04:13 AM.