217 replies to this topic

[redragon88]

 

Her whole acceptance of his apology (sincere or not, I'm not interested in arguing that) is passive. All he has to say is "sorry" and she starts gushing over him -- in her own unique way that involves a lot of insults. Her reaction is shown in a light that I find intended to be comedic and the situation is not treated with the kind of care such a serious issue as murder should be handled with.

 

Spoiler

 

You say she hasn't forgiven him, but I've seen nothing that truly suggests she holds the murder attempt against him. The comments made about it are played as comic relief -- a joke that the audience seems expected to laugh along at -- and a very distasteful "joke" at that.

 

He didn't just say "sorry". I already told you that it was poorly translated. The word Sasuke uses in the original japanese shows that Sasuke wasn't "half-assing" his apology as people so quickly and without question love to conclude. The word in the original raw is used to show deep regret.

 

Just go ask Kanae about it, she has all the evidence to back up what I said 100%.

 

If you have an issue with the lightness in which it's handled then I guess that's on you. People have issues with a lot of things in this manga, so I've learned to just accept that's how people are.

 

Karin still does hold the murder attempts against Sasuke, otherwise she wouldn't bring them up. Saying that it doesn't count because it's "comic relief" is just an excuse in my opinion.

[catsi563]

*WAVES!!*

 

*huggle kanae*

 

=^_^=

[BakeNeko-Chan]

@ Kanae: Thank for your response, it truly is enjoyable to read your perspective, it's all very well thought out and explained. That said, while I may not agree on all fronts in regards to the portrayal of the SK relationship, you've given me a bit better understanding on where the SK shippers are coming from. That's all I was really looking for with the question from my original post, just to understand.

 

 

 

He didn't just say "sorry". I already told you that it was poorly translated. The word Sasuke uses in the original japanese shows that Sasuke wasn't "half-assing" his apology as people so quickly and without question love to conclude. The word in the original raw is used to show deep regret.

 

Just go ask Kanae about it, she has all the evidence to back up what I said 100%.

 

If you have an issue with the lightness in which it's handled then I guess that's on you. People have issues with a lot of things in this manga, so I've learned to just accept that's how people are.

 

Karin still does hold the murder attempts against Sasuke, otherwise she wouldn't bring them up. Saying that it doesn't count because it's "comic relief" is just an excuse in my opinion.

 

And I said I wasn't interesting in discussing the sincerity of Sasuke's apology. I understand the whole mistranslation thing and I never claimed that the apology was half-assed.

 

Truly, it was not my intention to offend anyone, but I don't much appreciate the way you're trying to make me out as if I just don't know what I'm talking about or that my "issues" are just me being petty.

 

I find Kishimoto's handling of SasuKarin post murder attempt poor, and yes, at times in downright bad taste. That is my opinion and I don't feel that it's baseless or that the criticism is unjustified, and I don't think it's fair to write people off for sharing criticism as if they're just incapable of understanding the author's intent. I understand Kishimoto's intentions just fine, but the execution, oftentimes, is just a mess.

Edited by BakeNeko-Chan, 26 April 2014 - 08:21 PM.

[redragon88]

Truly, it was not my intention to offend anyone, but I don't much appreciate the way you're trying to make me out as if I just don't know what I'm talking about or that my "issues" are just me being petty.

 

I'm not trying to make you out to be anything. Don't put words in my mouth because at no point did I say that your opinion was "petty".

 

I don't appreciate the way YOU are trying to make me out to be. As if I'm insulting you when that wasn't the case.

 

To make it more clear, I said that if you still have an issue with it that I should let it go, because I should accept that people just have different opinions, those opinions are on them as my opinions are on me. I have no clue how you turn that around to make it about you.

 

I find Kishimoto's handling of SasuKarin post murder attempt poor, and yes, at times in downright bad taste. That is my opinion and I don't feel that it's baseless or that the criticism is unjustified, and I don't think it's fair to write people off for sharing criticism as if they're just incapable of understanding the author's intent. I understand Kishimoto's intentions just fine, but the execution, oftentimes, is just a mess.

 

And I have no issue with your criticism. I don't agree with it, but I understand why you feel like that.

 

People have certain expectations, you have certain expectations, and since they are not fulfilled that's a problem. I have expectations of my own so I get why you feel like you feel. Even if I don't agree with your expectations I can understand why it bothers you when it doesn't happen.

 

Maybe it's easier for me to not get too disappointed since I try to link my expectation with the author's. But that's just my choice, it doesn't mean everyone should do. Everyone has the choice to see things as they prefer.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

 

I'm not trying to make you out to be anything. Don't put words in my mouth because at no point did I say that your opinion was "petty".

 

I don't appreciate the way YOU are trying to make me out to be. As if I'm insulting you when that wasn't the case.

 

To make it more clear, I said that if you still have an issue with it that I should let it go, because I should accept that people just have different opinions, those opinions are on them as my opinions are on me. I have no clue how you turn that around to make it about you.

 

 

It was the bolded below in particular that gave me the wrong impression. To me, it made it sound as if I can't accept the way things are so I have to find excuse to write it off, thus, being petty. That was my mistake, and it doesn't help that I'm currently having one of my headaches which tends to make me irritable.

 

 

 

Karin still does hold the murder attempts against Sasuke, otherwise she wouldn't bring them up. Saying that it doesn't count because it's "comic relief" is just an excuse in my opinion.

 

Regardless, I apologize, I stepped out of line, and that is my fault, not yours. Now, I think I need a nap.

[redragon88]

@BakeNeko-Chan

 

Just a quick question (but please do wait after your nap your good health should always come first)

 

You consider that Kishi made the Karin's scenes lighthearted in order to not take her grudge over the stab seriously?

 

Is just that it doesn't seem right to not take a scene into validity just because it's funny. 631 is a testament to that. Just because the girlfriend scene was made for a laugh it doesn't make it any less true.

 

Just because it's funny that Naruto says out of nowhere that Sakura is "more or less" his girlfriend it doesn't make his feelings any less true. And just because Karin brings up the stab in a funny scene it doesn't make her feelings about it any less true. That's just how I see it.

[BlueStarSaber]

I think regardless if you like it or not Mr Kishi likes to have humour in the romances in his stories. NaruSaku is obvious example as well as Sasukarin (regardless if you like the characters or the pair), minakushi, jiratsu, obirin and even asukur (Ino teaseing him about the flowers). But he also give his pairs serious and deep moments like the NS cofession, SK forest of death flashback, 662 & 663 ,tsunade sad for jiraya, ring's death traumatizing Obito and when naruto was born for MK.

[sushi.]

I do believe the romantic relationships will be given a lot of time to mend and conclude after the war. We'll get our answers then, but in the meantime, 631, the 660's, and Sasuke's brief, yet very serious apology should be enough.

 

bakaneko-chan, I don't believe Kishi is done handling the murder attempt and its effect on SK, so imo it's too early to judge. ^^

[TouKen4Life3g]

To be fair, Orochimaru is the one to say just go with it for this time. Now, Karin has mixture feelings with mad about his action, but still loves him. Yes, I would like a long apology or some sort, but unless the series with nothing more than that, I would say perhaps wait for everything is over. War don't make you think personal grudges unless you are fighting that person. Still, she has kept that in mind about getting stabbed.

[Yami_no_Princess]

I don't get this notion that Karin has somehow forgiven Sasuke. I never saw her get over the stab, she's still quite upset about it, actually. I think the panel where her dere and tsun side are literally warring with each other to the point where she can't even speak properly is what throws people off. That's not supposed to be her forgiving him. In fact, right after the apology, she complains to Orochimaru about what Sasuke did to her and it's Orochimaru, not Sasuke, who convinces her to tag along. If she were over it, she wouldn't have angrily/accusingly brought it up at all. Then she continues to bring it up every chance she can get, even using it to insult Sasuke and call him a 'kittenhead'. Even though the scenes are Kishi's weird brand of humor, her feelings are still genuine, she's still genuinely pissed about it and still very much in denial about her feelings for him. 

 

I think part of the disconnect is what Kanae touched on earlier, that Kishi doesn't view the Kage Summit arc the same way his audience does. As such, he's not going to handle it to his audience's expectations/liking. I'm honestly not expecting anything to get resolved until after the war. That's why Kishi keeps dropping hints about it. That's just typical Shounen priorities: save the world then get scolded by your love interest.  

 

I get the feeling Karin's not going to forgive Sasuke until he makes it up to her in some way. In a way, I think that's rather refreshing because I feel Naruto is too forgiving/lenient when it comes to Sasuke. I know Naruto isn't the type to hold grudges, but still, it bothers me with how easily he brushes off the things Sasuke does and just views him as a victim of the system. At least there's one Uzumaki that isn't going to let Sasuke get away with the kitten he pulls. 

[Kanae]

^ mte 
 
@catsi563: Caaaaat, it's so good to see you!  It's been a while since you've dropped by the FC haha 
 
@BakeNeko-Chan: I'm glad to hear that! Nothing to thank for, the discussion was very enjoyable   I hope you're feeling better, btw. (And I just realized that I misspelled your name on the previous page, my apologies for that!)

@BakeNeko-Chan
Just because it's funny that Naruto says out of nowhere that Sakura is "more or less" his girlfriend it doesn't make his feelings any less true. And just because Karin brings up the stab in a funny scene it doesn't make her feelings about it any less true. That's just how I see it.

Nice way to put it! I wholeheartedly agree with everyone on the matter.
 
Speaking about hurmor, their faces here are forever funny to me:
 



 
I see no difference 

Edited by Kanae, 27 April 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

@BakeNeko-Chan

 

Just a quick question (but please do wait after your nap your good health should always come first)

 

You consider that Kishi made the Karin's scenes lighthearted in order to not take her grudge over the stab seriously?

 

Is just that it doesn't seem right to not take a scene into validity just because it's funny. 631 is a testament to that. Just because the girlfriend scene was made for a laugh it doesn't make it any less true.

 

Just because it's funny that Naruto says out of nowhere that Sakura is "more or less" his girlfriend it doesn't make his feelings any less true. And just because Karin brings up the stab in a funny scene it doesn't make her feelings about it any less true. That's just how I see it.

 

 It is the impression his approach to Karin's character gives me. To me, it seems that Kishi is taking the easy way out to resolve the murder attempt by making it seem as though it does not need to be taken seriously. It's not so much the idea of SasuKarin that I take issue with as it is the way Kishi has chosen to handle the relationship, and especially Karin. If he were to show Sasuke as having to earn back Karin's trust, and not by all appearances getting it handed back to him by saying sorry (genuine though the apology may have been), I imagine I would feel more accepting of the pairing as a whole.

 

I agree that a scene is not less valid for being played in a comedic light, but when it comes to something like an attempt on another person's life it just feels like bad taste. As an aspiring writer myself, I struggle to understand why Kishimoto would choose to characterize SasuKarin this way if he intends for readers to actually take it seriously as a possible canon pairing -- as his recent paralleling of SK and NS would suggest.

 

The two portrayals seem in conflict with each other, like the author is telling readers one thing with the parallels but showing another in the relationship itself. It feels strangely disconnected and frankly confuses me. I can't look upon the pairing believably simply because it's paralleled to the main couple, not when development itself feels so lacking.

[Nate River]

First don't take this personal but do we really need to judge every aspect of the manga ( including and especially the relationships).
At the end of the day if the author wants to write about an unhealthy relationship it's his decision.
We as readers could at least find out what that relationship ( or characters or anything else ) mean for the entire story instead of labeling it based on it's flaws.

The problem is I don't think that is what he is intending to write. SasuKarin could be that, but it'd have to be taken seriously by the author for that to be the case unless he is suggesting we should laugh at unhealthy relationships.

[Yami_no_Princess]

His portrayal is about as polarized as the tsundere trope itself. I get the feeling Kishi believes that a well-rounded relationship can be portrayed in both a comedic and a serious light. However, comedy is all about timing, and his timing has been really inappropriate and poor lately. I can get that he wants to lighten the mood a bit given the depressing atmosphere of the war, but his execution completely misses the mark and just makes us question his sensibilities. What's probably supposed to come off as well-rounded/versatile, just comes off as bipolar. 

[Kanae]

^ I completely agree lol Sometimes I wish Kishi were a little more conscious of the ways his character are perceived by the fandom so that he would be a bit more careful when it comes to his timing, at least.

 

I agree that a scene is not less valid for being played in a comedic light, but when it comes to something like an attempt on another person's life it just feels like bad taste. As an aspiring writer myself, I struggle to understand why Kishimoto would choose to characterize SasuKarin this way if he intends for readers to actually take it seriously as a possible canon pairing -- as his recent paralleling of SK and NS would suggest.

I hope you don't mind me jumping in   If you ask me, the thing with Kishi is that - as everyone mentioned - he really, really, really likes his humor. When it comes to Sasuke, there are hardly any opportunities to bring humor through him because he is a very serious and mellow character in that regard; that is why whenever Taka is around, Kishi will take every opportunity to make things humorous (as they are there to both, compliment and balance Sasuke) be it in good taste or not. The same applies to SasuKarin. IMO his timing has been more off than ever now because of what I mentioned previously (he does know that he went too far) and because of what Yami just said; since they're at a war, Kishi will take every opportunity he can to sneak in the humor. 

 

But he will address them seriously when it's due. The prime example being the latest chapters. So basically, I do agree that it's in bad taste; but given the foreshadowing I do think he will end up making up for it and addressing it properly later. For now, I think his priority was to re-establish the SasuKarin dynamic (which he did in 627), to assert that Karin is very much still in love with Sasuke - and to start to show that something has changed, since Karin is being more open about her feelings for him - and Sasuke had never quite made such a face with her before, either. 

 

So it's a matter of seeing how he handles things when we see Sasuke and Karin actually interacting again.

Edited by Kanae, 27 April 2014 - 01:06 AM.

[Yami_no_Princess]

^I do believe he realized he went too far and will make up for it by giving us the drama we desire all in due time. 

[Kanae]

^ Same  Not to mention he still owe us some flashbacks. Granted if he does deliver anything about Karin's background, I bet people will call them asspulls; nevermind they've been coming since the IIIrd Databook got released lol

[Yami_no_Princess]

^I've long since stopped caring how the general audience perceives Kishi's story. Let them think what they want, I'll be over here enjoying the author's work, thank you. 

[Kanae]

^ Oh, me too   that's part of the reason why it took me so long to update the counter-arguments bit of the manifesto. I don't even really keep up with discussion outside of the FC anymore, so half the time I don't even know what's being said about the couple unless it shows up in my tumblr dash or something lol

[KnS]

At the end of the day if the author wants to write about an unhealthy relationship it's his decision.

 

I must agree in general principle.

 

Besides, I honestly have to admit I don't understand the whole "unhealthy relationship" outcry with regard to this story.

 

In a world where ongoing conflict has created generations of orphaned children, and those children along with others are in turn trained to be killers who are willing and able to kill or orphan other children, and children like Naruto and Gaara are used as hosts for demons and mistreated because of it, and other children like Sai are systematically groomed to be emotionless bots in the service of questionable leaders like Danzo, and others like Itachi are forced to kill their clans to save a village, etc., etc., etc....

 

The entire shinobi culture is unhealthy.  Killing one another is not an uncommon result of conflict or advancement, is it?  Isn't that the point?  Isn't that what this last war has been about?  How unhealthy their culture has become?

 

All of that is taken in stride as an accepted theme of the story, but the relationships -- specifically those involving Sasuke (and Hinata) -- are typically scorned as "unhealthy" and heaped with moral indignation.  I don't think that makes a lot of sense in context.

 

No one can find Sasuke more distasteful than I do, but Karin is no paragon of virtue either.  I've said it before and I'll say it again: Karin knew Sasuke was a snake when she picked him up.  She knows who he is, and what he is, and loves him in spite of it.  Maybe because of it.  We have no evidence that she wants him to be different than he is, or expects him to conform to some image she has of him.

 

Beyond a willingness to choose her, Karin doesn't seem interested in changing Sasuke.  They are both orphans who took an unhealthy path, both have willingly associated with Orochimaru, neither feel a strong allegiance to anything beyond what they want for themselves.  They are dark horses who are as well suited to each other as any other pairing in the story.

 

Do I think Sasuke/Karin is an unhealthy relationship?  From a real world view, yes.  From a Naruto world view, no, I don't think it's significantly more unhealthy than any of the other relationships of the current generation.

 

Has it really been healthy for Naruto to pine over Sakura while she has loved Sasuke?  Not only was she clueless about Naruto's love for her, but she couldn't see it because she was stuck on a narcissistic jerk like Sasuke.

 

Has it really been healthy for Hinata to obsess over Naruto while he has loved Sakura?  She nearly got herself killed confessing her love for him, and he has never managed to even comment on it.  Meanwhile his love for another girl who loves someone else is as strong as ever.

 

Has it really been healthy for Lee to be willing to protect Sakura with his life when she hasn't given him the slightest bit of encouragement, and prefers to daydream about a narcissistic jerk like Sasuke?

 

Has it really been healthy for Ino to feel any emotional attachment to Sasuke, a guy she doesn't really know and who has never given her the time of day?

 

Has it really been healthy for Obito to have obsessed and fantasized about Rin all these years?

 

My point is, I personally don't think Sasuke and Karin have a lock on "unhealthy."  Like I said, it's a reflection of the world they're living in, and part of what Naruto is trying to change.

 

Just my opinion.

Edited by KnS, 27 April 2014 - 05:35 PM.