169 replies to this topic

[alexander]

I don't think Obito is doing this because of Rin death alone, in a sense, he wants to make all of the people in the world have better lifes, since in the real world, many are fated to have an miserable existance. Because, wasn't it just for Rin, wouldn't Obito just find a way to put himself in his dreamland genjutsu and be done with it?

This whole deal reminds me of this scene alot:

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I don't think Obito is doing this because of Rin death alone, in a sense, he wants to make all of the people in the world have better lifes, since in the real world, many are fated to have an miserable existance. Because, wasn't it just for Rin, wouldn't Obito just find a way to put himself in his dreamland genjutsu and be done with it?

This whole deal reminds me of this scene alot:

It reminds me of Vanilla Sky.

[Codus N]

Mistake number one right here is that Obito doesn't want to destroy the world. Just reform it. It's not like he wants mass extinction of the human race. Second, since when could Obito not be able to look at Kakashi and not deal with it? You're missing the point of "indifference." You have no emotion towards the person. No love nor hate. He says he didn't care either way. He is more focused on getting Rin back. If you can't look at someone because you're angry, that's not indifference. That's still an emotional attachment.

Not every villain is going to be like Sasuke bent on revenge. You will probably claim that he was getting his revenge on the Mist-nin, but I saw that as more of a "Obito Angry. Obito kill everything" rage. It is very possible to be traumatized and not lose your mind completely.

And there are villains who are insane, yet still retain a notion of straight forward thinking. Look at Legato from Trigun. He could go into any town and kill everyone in the blink of an eye. He even says this himself. So why doesn't he just do that? Again, he also says himself "Life is a wasted existence....I intend to wipe out every human being down to the last speck of dust...I spared you, but this is not an act of mercy, this is to show you how painful living really is...make use of the time you have left."

He doesn't just go on a murder-fest because he is going to wipe out everyone anyway in the end. Turning it all into productivity. I've even been say something to real life people saying to them. "Why are you sitting her complaining, when you could be doing something more productive?" I see your point on why someone would be like Sasuke and just kill everyone who did them harm, but Obito doesn't want revenge. He just wants Rin back and to end his pain.

I could say Sasuke is stupid too. What is killing Konoha going to do for you? How is doing such a think bring honor back to your clan when really it will just make things worse. It would be more effective to have the elders reveal the truth than it is to jut kill them right there wouldn't it? Sasuke is a loaded gun who keeps attacking anyone who talks bad about Itachi. What does this solve? Killing them is not the same as changing their opinion. That's what Naruto is trying to say to Sasuke.

If Sasuke succeeds what does he get in return? Nothing, but more bodies and bloodshed. Will he be satisfied? Doubt it. The entire ninja world knows about Itachi and what he did. What's he going to do? Kill everyone? At least Obito gets something in the end. At least he gets what he is after out of it without the misuse of a pointless thing such as revenge.

And punishment...That's a whole new ball game.



The character that he is or the character that you want him to be? Also, according to this manga Obito has a split personality with the "Tobi" persona mixed in with him. Whenever he is that child like being he is Tobi. When he is serious and straight forward, he is Obito.

Maybe the child like persona is messing with his mind, but does Obito himself seem like the kind of person bent out for revenge? I never saw that. I see someone who loves someone so much they are willing to go to the ends of existence for them. It's funny love can both create and destroy so much.

We got to stop thinking that every single villain is exactly alike, because they are not.



5 people go through a similar event:
Guy A says "I am going to find the people who did this."
Guy B says "I am going to do whatever it takes to get my girl back."
Guy C says "I want to destroy the world."
Guy D says "I am going to cut myself."
Guy E says "I am going to kill myself."

Which reason is a lesser reason? What makes one person's logic weaker than the other? It's like you're saying that revenge is the only answer to this situation, but it's not.



And if he does and doesn't do anything or show no hint of revenge because he wants to end hatred, are you going to say "Oh that is a weak reason?"



Why does Sakura have to die to prove this point? Was Jiraiya's death not enough? I am pretty sure Jiraiya's death got the message to him since he has been like a father to him. He also spent a good time training him, maybe showing life lessons. Not the best role model, but not a bad choice either. Like a fun Uncle. We also have the time when Kakashi died and Naruto experienced that. Also, when he thought Hinata died right in front of him.

He got to the point of emotional breaking. The only difference is is that Naruto managed to get everything back, but how could he know? Then he met his father who renewed his faith. The Pain Arc was even to show that Naruto didn't know what true pain was until Nagato showed him what it all meant.

Sasuke didn't lose the true love of his life either. He lost his whole family and clan by his brother's hand. So why have Sakura die to prove a point when the same point Sasuke got wasn't losing the love of his life, but his family? I think Naruto got that point when Jiraiya died and he had to learn to accept it. He couldn't forgive Nagato for it, but he said he wouldn't hate him either. Meanwhile other characters who experience such things bent their life on revenge or negative emotions.



Childhood taunting isn't the only thing Naruto has gone through is it?

I think Gaara got the worst of it. He had the worse life out of all of them and was traumatized far more than Sasuke was. Imagine the only one you trust telling you that "You are nothing. You are nothing more than a monster. Your mother hated you. Your father despises you and the entire village wants you dead. "

This is why I love the images of Gaara slapping Sasuke being emo with him saying "Shut up will you. Shut up." Yet, Gaara still managed to become a good person in the end because Naruto showed him another path. Naruto who might not have experienced such harshness, still managed to show him that love conquers all. So, what's Sasuke's excuse? Probably a weak one. Probably weaker than Obito's if you really think about it. Yeah, your brother killed your entire clan, but you weren't hated or rejected. You weren't told you're worthless and that you're nothing.

Sasuke looks pretty weak compared to Gaara as well. As least Sasuke was loved and admired by the village and he gave it all up. He could have had everything, but look what revenge got him? Loneliness. Sasuke has spent so much of his life pushing everything away for revenge that it is even surprising how he still has people who cared about him even when he tried to kill them several times. Obito never even had that chance to go back to normal. Never got the chance to return to a normal life. He was pushed into Madara's corner right off the bat. If Kakashi knew Obito was still alive, he probably would have been chasing after him just like Naruto is chasing Sasuke now, but he didn't. Sasuke had more chances to have a better life than any other villain in this show and I'm supposed to be sympathetic to Sasuke? Screw that.

I feel bad for Obito because he was never shown the options. Gaara was shown options and he changed. Nagato was shown options and he changed. Sasuke was shown options and rejected them. So why should Sasuke be forgiven and Obito be dumped on? I am not even saying you need to excuse his actions, I am just asking why we should forgive Sasuke, but not forgive Obito? Cause right now, I want Obito to be saved more than Sasuke. I want Obito to find happiness instead of Sasuke because I know Obito would appreciate it.

Obito has bigger things than revenge on his mind. Revenge solves nothing and Sasuke has shown that so far. He got his revenge against Danzou and yet he still wants more. Obito instead says "Why bother? I rather go for what I really want."

Also, one last thing. If you're going to blame Obito for indirectly causing the deaths of a hundreds of ninja because he organized a group organization bent on killing people, then really the entire mastermind behind all of this is Madara. If Madara never got to Obito, then he would have died without causing problems. If Madara didn't orchestrate everything with bringing the Gedou Mazo, then none of this would have been happening in the first place. So, the true blame is on Madara. That's why I feel bad for Obito because without Madara's influence on taking advantage of Obito grief, Obito would not become the person he is now.

Should I bring up another argument that people use to excuse Sasuke? "Well, all those hundreds of Ninja were nobodies, so we can't count them." It's funny how people want to apply the logic to Obito, but excuse Sasuke for similar crimes.

Great post as usual, James. Except for one thing. The bloodline purge in Kiri. Now, while we're not sure why Obito controlled Yagura and for what reason, it would seem that hints are pointing towards revenge on Obito's part for Rin. So, that puts the kibosh on your revenge angle.

[Chucky-kun]

IMO I think naruto has been tested and has come out on top. For example, the death of his parents. He has surpassed people like Sasuke or Nagato. These two both wanted revenge against the murderers of their clan or their friends but what did Naruto do? He FORGAVE the kyuubi and even became friends with it. This IMO takes a lot of willpower and is truly what makes naruto the hero. HE also forgave Nagato for killing jiraiya. And this is how naruto plans on breaking the cycle of hatred, with forgiveness.

It's also makes me wonder, does obito and naruto have the same goal? World peace, just through different perspectives and ways.

Edited by Chucky-kun, 18 October 2012 - 12:17 PM.

[tricksie]

I don't get the Kakashi hate either - Kakashi was basically forced to kill Rin (or at least that's strongly implied what happened given his tears), and yet he receives no sympathy?

Personally, I think Kakashi has proven to be one of the emotionally strongest characters in the show. He's gone through the death of his father, the stigma associated with that, the death of Obito coupled with the failure of being unable to save him, being forced to/accidentally killing Rin, loosing Minato, failing to get there in time to prevent Sasuke from leaving, and then loosing Asuma (who was at the very least a friend of Kakashi's). And despite all of this, he remains steady and composed, and lives his life as best he is able, learning from his losses.

Agree. For all the implied heroism of this story, the real heros tend to get downplayed. Kakashi being one of them. He survived and used the best of what he'd learn from the experiences to improve the lives of those he was in charge of.

@James, thanks for the lengthy reply, but you're twisting my words.

- Obito most certainly would destroy everyone's world as they know it. That's the point of what he's doing. He is taking away everyone's free will and replacing it with his own. The people who inhabit his genjutsu would no longer have a world to live in. Just his. That is destroying their world.

- As for Sasuke and revenge and Obito not being the same type of villain, I never said he would be the same as Sasuke. Obito's behavior is out of character with someone who devotes his life to a master plan, leaving no detail untouched, no stone unturned. This is the Tobi/Madara character that has been presented this whole time. It is out of character for him to leave Kakashi alone, and yet throw all of his focus on dominating the rest of the world who did nothing to him.

If the citizens whom Obito plans to genjutsu had their own free will, had a choice — that Obito could either take their reality away completely or he could exact his toll on the one person who started on this — they would certainly choose to keep their world intact and tell him to go after the one who is to blame. Whether Kakashi was guilty or not. As a person who's master plan is to dominate the world, it makes no sense that he doesn't start at the source: Kakashi. The only reason that this is plausible is that it is necessary for the story.

- Lastly, I'm fully aware of all of Naruto's trials and tribulations. I'm not putting them up on a scoreboard for comparison. I'm saying there is no comparison. No matter what he has experienced so far, it does not compare to witnessing the death of someone you loved the most in the world, right in front of your eyes, coupled with the betrayal of having it done by someone you knew and trusted.

Naruto's childhood hatred, the banner he waves whenever he tells Sasuke he understands his pain, has long ceased being a real issue and has been completely resolved. The pain from Jiraiya's loss was lessened as Naruto did not witness it or have to live with the regret that it happened right in front of him and he might have prevented it. Also, Jiraiya was his itinerate teacher for only a few years. Not a lover, not a parent. Hinata doesn't count, because she entered the battle of her own accord, as a ninja, willing to fight back.

I'm repeating myself now, but I think it bears repeating: The more trauma that Kishimoto lays on the victims/villains the more apparent it becomes that Naruto is not on par with the depth of their pain, not enough to understand it and then make them overcome it.

My frustration here is that the story revolves so heavily around the Uchihas, while Naruto and the rest of the cast have been largely sidelined. The rookies' jobs are just to fight. Naruto's only issues, save for winning Sakura and saving Sasuke, have been resolved. He is no longer devloping.

It would be great if some new threat came out of the woodwork that was wholly Naruto's, and that overcoming it would in the end help him deal with the Uchiha clan — perhaps something from the way back in the Senju line.

But so far, that hasn't happened. This story is still the Uchiha's. And the more that these secondary characters are developed and turn the cranks that drive the plot, the more apparent it is that Naruto has just become a reactionary character here.

[CloudMountainJuror]

James, I agree with almost everything you said. I disagree on wanting Obito to be "saved", however. Tobi's proven to be such a magnificent villain over the last few hundred chapters that for him to be "saved" would be...disappointing. We need a villain that doesn't give into talk no jutsu that actually makes it until near the end. Kabuto was one of them, but Kishi ass-pulled his way out of dealing with him. Orochimaru was/is one, but honestly he's way too over-the-top about it. I've never liked Oro as a villain because he was too generically "evil".

Madara and Obito, as of right now, are the big baddies. Madara we've only known for a short amount of time, so introducing him as the only villain that isn't affected by talk no jutsu that isn't wasted (*cough* Kabuto deserved way better *cough*) would seem kinda...weak. It wouldn't have as big of an impact as Tobi, I mean, because we've known Tobi since near the beginning of Shippuden and Madara himself for the last, what, 100 chapters?

At this point, I don't care about what Madara does. Tobi and Kabuto were the villains I was looking forward to being the last biggies, and now that Kabuto's been totally wasted, I feel that Tobi needs to stay his path. Please, Kishimoto. Don't waste another good villain.

Please.

Edit: Yes, I'm still butthurt about how he treated Kabuto. Bite me, Kishi.

Edited by zacrathedemon5, 18 October 2012 - 01:34 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

i'm going to cut myself or i'm going to kill myself...
.....
-___________-

[sushi.]

I don't think Obito will try to revive Rin before his world is complete. When it's done, Rin is probably welcome there. He probably doesn't want her in the middle of the prossess, it's kind off like a big mess.

[James S Cassidy]

James, I agree with almost everything you said. I disagree on wanting Obito to be "saved", however. Tobi's proven to be such a magnificent villain over the last few hundred chapters that for him to be "saved" would be...disappointing. We need a villain that doesn't give into talk no jutsu that actually makes it until near the end. Kabuto was one of them, but Kishi ass-pulled his way out of dealing with him. Orochimaru was/is one, but honestly he's way too over-the-top about it. I've never liked Oro as a villain because he was too generically "evil".

Madara and Obito, as of right now, are the big baddies. Madara we've only known for a short amount of time, so introducing him as the only villain that isn't affected by talk no jutsu that isn't wasted (*cough* Kabuto deserved way better *cough*) would seem kinda...weak. It wouldn't have as big of an impact as Tobi, I mean, because we've known Tobi since near the beginning of Shippuden and Madara himself for the last, what, 100 chapters?

I have practically given up on a good strong villain who does things just to do it. The fact that 99% of all the major villains, save for Madara, have this tragic past that makes us try to sympathize them is basically Kishimoto telling us "You must feel sorry for them." So I am just accepting a truth. While I agree with you on wanting a villain that just does things because "it's fun." Just one that's all.

Honestly, Zac. I much prefer for Sasuke and Obito to switch places with Obito being the neutral chaotic who does things to try and get Rin back and Sasuke wanting to reform the world. I honestly think that better fits their characters than what they are now, but that is just me. Like I said, I am much more sympathetic to Obito and wish Sasuke was a much better villain. I think that disappoints me more than anything else.

Great post as usual, James. Except for one thing. The bloodline purge in Kiri. Now, while we're not sure why Obito controlled Yagura and for what reason, it would seem that hints are pointing towards revenge on Obito's part for Rin. So, that puts the kibosh on your revenge angle.

The problem I have with this is that it is inconsistent. If he wanted revenge, why not just wipe out the whole village? I don't know, I am more inclined to believe he did it to gain something. Possibly to get Kisame or even to get the two tailed beast that the town had. I believe they had two. Yeah, wasn't the three-tails sealed in Yagura and the six-tails Utakata? I am betting that is the main reason why he did what he did.

It's just weird that if he wanted revenge he would have just wiped the city clean. We know he had the power to do so and we also know that the clan survived with Mei taking over as kage.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 18 October 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[Deej]

My frustration here is that the story revolves so heavily around the Uchihas, while Naruto and the rest of the cast have been largely sidelined. The rookies' jobs are just to fight. Naruto's only issues, save for winning Sakura and saving Sasuke, have been resolved. He is no longer devloping.

It would be great if some new threat came out of the woodwork that was wholly Naruto's, and that overcoming it would in the end help him deal with the Uchiha clan — perhaps something from the way back in the Senju line.

But so far, that hasn't happened. This story is still the Uchiha's. And the more that these secondary characters are developed and turn the cranks that drive the plot, the more apparent it is that Naruto has just become a reactionary character here.

I agree. This also extends to Naruto's entire generation, with the exception of Sasuke. They just seem so much out of the loop with what is happening with the Uchiha storyline.

They were suppose to be the ones to change everything and undo all the crap the previous generations laid on the world. The ones who could counter the cynicism of a Madara, Obito, or Nagato. The ones who would prove the world doesn't suck. I am curious to how Kishimoto can make them relevant again. If he plans on doing so.

Edited by Deej, 18 October 2012 - 06:24 PM.

[Arachnia]

James, I agree with almost everything you said. I disagree on wanting Obito to be "saved", however. Tobi's proven to be such a magnificent villain over the last few hundred chapters that for him to be "saved" would be...disappointing. We need a villain that doesn't give into talk no jutsu that actually makes it until near the end. Kabuto was one of them, but Kishi ass-pulled his way out of dealing with him. Orochimaru was/is one, but honestly he's way too over-the-top about it. I've never liked Oro as a villain because he was too generically "evil".

Madara and Obito, as of right now, are the big baddies. Madara we've only known for a short amount of time, so introducing him as the only villain that isn't affected by talk no jutsu that isn't wasted (*cough* Kabuto deserved way better *cough*) would seem kinda...weak. It wouldn't have as big of an impact as Tobi, I mean, because we've known Tobi since near the beginning of Shippuden and Madara himself for the last, what, 100 chapters?

At this point, I don't care about what Madara does. Tobi and Kabuto were the villains I was looking forward to being the last biggies, and now that Kabuto's been totally wasted, I feel that Tobi needs to stay his path. Please, Kishimoto. Don't waste another good villain.

Please.

Edit: Yes, I'm still butthurt about how he treated Kabuto. Bite me, Kishi.

I do agree with you on the redeeming part of obito if kishi is gonna do something make kakashi see the fourth with hes students not the obito from now but the young obito who died when rin died in a dream or as spirits or something, because it gives closure for some and its not as lame as adult Obito saying your right naruto/kakashi i was wrong i should have painted a mustache on fainted kakakshi xD

[KnS]

I don't get the Kakashi hate either - Kakashi was basically forced to kill Rin (or at least that's strongly implied what happened given his tears), and yet he receives no sympathy?

Personally, I think Kakashi has proven to be one of the emotionally strongest characters in the show. He's gone through the death of his father, the stigma associated with that, the death of Obito coupled with the failure of being unable to save him, being forced to/accidentally killing Rin, loosing Minato, failing to get there in time to prevent Sasuke from leaving, and then loosing Asuma (who was at the very least a friend of Kakashi's). And despite all of this, he remains steady and composed, and lives his life as best he is able, learning from his losses.

Agree. For all the implied heroism of this story, the real heros tend to get downplayed. Kakashi being one of them. He survived and used the best of what he'd learn from the experiences to improve the lives of those he was in charge of.

I don't know how I missed these comments earlier, but it was great to read them now. I was beginning to feel I was a voice of one crying in the wilderness.

[Nefertieh]

Unfortunately, if you're going to have villains with no motivation factor behind anything other than insanity, then you're asking for a villain with the complexity and depth of a cardboard cutout.

The demand to demonize your enemies just sound too much like an American comic book or the fear-mongering tactics from politicians.

This manga doesn't need it to define Naruto as a hero, because he's not Batman. Again and again, all about understanding, even if the enemy killed your loved ones. It's what separates Naruto from all the other villains in the series.

[James S Cassidy]

@James, thanks for the lengthy reply, but you're twisting my words.

- Obito most certainly would destroy everyone's world as they know it. That's the point of what he's doing. He is taking away everyone's free will and replacing it with his own. The people who inhabit his genjutsu would no longer have a world to live in. Just his. That is destroying their world.

No, I am not twisting your words around. You're not using the right words. If you said "He want to destroy reality." Then yes, I would agree with you, but there is a difference between destroying a reality and destroying the world. Hell, even if you said "a world," I would have agreed with you. So that's your fault.

It's not knowing what kind of stuff will happen in this genjustu. Does create the heaven that Obito wants OR does it give a world where everyone gets what they want? As shown with the Road to Ninja, when used on Naruto he got what he wanted. Whether this is canon or not, I don't know. Some people say it is, some people say it isn't. You could argue that he purposely made it so it focus on Naruto and I could argue that it was only a "test run"

Look at this genjutsu like the Matrix. Is it just a world pulled over their eyes so that Obito can get what he wants like the Matrix or is it a world that puts people in a state of mine where everyone is happy? From what Madara described, it is the latter with people getting what they desire most because he says to Obito "Kakashi will be in this world too." More or less asking him, "Do you understand that Kakashi, the one who killed Rin, will get what he wants too?" And Obito says "I don't care, I just want Rin."

- As for Sasuke and revenge and Obito not being the same type of villain, I never said he would be the same as Sasuke. Obito's behavior is out of character with someone who devotes his life to a master plan, leaving no detail untouched, no stone unturned. This is the Tobi/Madara character that has been presented this whole time. It is out of character for him to leave Kakashi alone, and yet throw all of his focus on dominating the rest of the world who did nothing to him.

Let me ask you this, Tricksie. How would killing Kakashi fulfill the master plan? The master plan is to get Rin back and stop the "evil" in the world. Is this not correct? So how is Obito killing Kakashi play into that? How does revenge play into this? How does it benefit to move the plan forward? See right here in the bolded, you said he is devoted to his master plan. Revenge was never part of it. In fact, I can say that revenge

It's not out of character because Kishimoto made his character do that. It was even lampshaded (think I am using this term right) in the chapter we just read. White Zetsu and Madara asked Obito why he didn't kill kakashi knowing what he did and Obito said "I don't care. My main focus is Rin." He gave the answer in the chapter. He doesn't care. This isn't him leaving a stone unturned. This isn't leaving something out because he forgot about it. He doesn't think it is important and I agree. It might me back to bite him, but he doesn't see that.

And speaking of which, as good as Obito is he can't predict everything. He didn't predict that Nagato was going to use that jutsu to revive Konoha when originally he was going to use it to bring Madara back to life.

If the citizens whom Obito plans to genjutsu had their own free will, had a choice — that Obito could either take their reality away completely or he could exact his toll on the one person who started on this — they would certainly choose to keep their world intact and tell him to go after the one who is to blame. Whether Kakashi was guilty or not. As a person who's master plan is to dominate the world, it makes no sense that he doesn't start at the source: Kakashi. The only reason that this is plausible is that it is necessary for the story.

You're not answering the question I proposed to you. If Obito is so into the plan to reform the world, How would Kakashi's death play into this?

- Lastly, I'm fully aware of all of Naruto's trials and tribulations. I'm not putting them up on a scoreboard for comparison. I'm saying there is no comparison. No matter what he has experienced so far, it does not compare to witnessing the death of someone you loved the most in the world, right in front of your eyes, coupled with the betrayal of having it done by someone you knew and trusted.

Fair enough, but then you also have to consider how the person take such traumatic events.

Naruto's childhood hatred, the banner he waves whenever he tells Sasuke he understands his pain, has long ceased being a real issue and has been completely resolved. The pain from Jiraiya's loss was lessened as Naruto did not witness it or have to live with the regret that it happened right in front of him and he might have prevented it. Also, Jiraiya was his itinerate teacher for only a few years. Not a lover, not a parent. Hinata doesn't count, because she entered the battle of her own accord, as a ninja, willing to fight back.

Tricksie. I completely disagree with this logic because of the effect it had on Naruto. You're basically saying that because "We're at war" Hinata's "death" was less tragic. Everyone takes tragedy differently. I can't believe I am going to say this, but look how much effect it had on Naruto when Hinata died. He nearly destroyed everyone. Coupled with the tragedy of the village being destroyed, his mentor dying, his teacher dying. He snapped. He lost faith. The difference being is that Naruto was saved before he crossed the line. Obito was pushed farther.

I could use that same argument on Rin as well. Did Rin enter battle on her own accord? "Ninja willing to fight." So fine, fair enough. Not all tragedy is on the same level, but another factor you're forgetting is who experiences it. If it was Rin who killed Kakashi would Obito be as effected as he is now? Okay, now let's replace Obito with Naruto. Naruto has connection to Kakashi and for intents and purposes he sees this play out. How would Naruto feel? Angry, but probably not go insane like Obito did. Same tragedy, different people.

Now, let's replace it with people Naruto knows and it becomes way more personal. Naruto may not have been in love with Hinata, but he still took it hard. He still felt the pain of losing someone what was personal to him. Combine that even more with the fact that this is the same person that killed Jiraiya, destroyed his village, and caused Kakashi to die. (And the fact that Naruto is kind of an emotional bouncy wall.)

You can even look at other tragedies in other manga with their characters. Vash the Stampede for example took Rems death pretty hard even though Knives didn't directly kill her and took other people's death regardless if it happened in front of him or not. That's just how his character is.

It may not be exactly the same, but that doesn't mean he does not understand. In real life situations, a person may even say "I have no idea what it feels like to lose that, but I did lose someone I saw was important. I aw them being murdered right in front of me and I nearly lost it. If I lost someone who I loved more than anything, then I don't know what I would be feeling. So I understand how this pushed you to this point."

Again, look at Gaara and the interaction Naruto has on him. Naruto only went through a partial effect of Gaara went to and yet they were still able to connect on a level that Gaara understood. Was this just a plot ploy as well? Was it just there to move the plot forward and this is waaaay back in part 1. If you really are disgusted by this problem, then you would have that back then and stopped reading all together. This is just a repeat, but on a much bigger scale.

We have one more factor to account for that could change the entire outlook. Why did Kakashi kill Rin? If it turns out that the reason why Kakashi killed Rin because she change sides, how much would that effect the tragedy. And this plays against your logic on how good Obito is at leaving no stone unturned. If that was true, why didn't Obito seek answers for Rin? Why didn't Obito seek out answers to why Rin had to die?

I'm repeating myself now, but I think it bears repeating: The more trauma that Kishimoto lays on the victims/villains the more apparent it becomes that Naruto is not on par with the depth of their pain, not enough to understand it and then make them overcome it.

Quantity v Quality? If you really look at it, Naruto has faced more opposition over the span of the series than any other character has. The tragedies may not be as severe, but he does rack up number counts. Another difference is that Naruto's problems get fixed as well. This we have to take into account, this is why Naruto stays stable. Notice that other characters don't get their problems solved and continue to let the problem eat away at them.

If Naruto went through problems and none of them got solved or he was shown a way out, he'd probably go down the same path. This is why I keep bringing up the influences that many characters face and why Sasuke is such an odd ball. Kakashi lost Obito and killed Rin. Why isn't he like Obito now? Probably because he was shown a more positive outlook. It still haunts him, but he learns to live with it.

The Pain Arc was meant to show Naruto on what pain was. It's clever the way Kishimoto did this arc and why I like this arc the most. Imagine if everyone who was killed remained dead and Hinata was killed as well. Does the tragedy still hold up? As far as Naruto knew everyone was dead. You couldn't bring them back, but Naruto stuck by his beliefs. "I can't forgive you, but I can't hate you either. I'm sorry things turned out the way they did, but I will still fight to end hatred." He showed that even in great tragedy, you can't give in to hatred.

Sasuke is like the only person who had positive influences on his life and chose to ignore them.

My frustration here is that the story revolves so heavily around the Uchihas, while Naruto and the rest of the cast have been largely sidelined. The rookies' jobs are just to fight. Naruto's only issues, save for winning Sakura and saving Sasuke, have been resolved. He is no longer devloping.

This I will agree with, but not for the same reasons. Obito and Madara are not the problem because they are played pretty straight forward. I like how Obito and Madara turned out and satisfied, but Sasuke....he is like putting a squiggly line on the Mona Lisa. What is the point? Every time he comes in, he just ruins everything. If you really want to see a character who is very plot driven and who has no reason do what he does than plot purposes, Sasuke is the mascot.

If you want emotional drama between Naruto and Sakura...bring in Sasuke.
If you want to end something in the manga and have no clear way...bring in Sasuke.
If you want to waste your time waiting...bring in Sasuke.

Honestly, take Sasuke out of the picture and the plot would roughly stay the same with difference in just how things play out. Too many to list, but the main plot would remain intact.

It would be great if some new threat came out of the woodwork that was wholly Naruto's, and that overcoming it would in the end help him deal with the Uchiha clan — perhaps something from the way back in the Senju line.

But so far, that hasn't happened. This story is still the Uchiha's. And the more that these secondary characters are developed and turn the cranks that drive the plot, the more apparent it is that Naruto has just become a reactionary character here.

I also believe Sasuke is not being developed either because he keeps him at this neutrality level. There is no reason why Sasuke needs to be redeemed other than "Naruto wants to." He doesn't deserve it. He shows no hint to wanting it and every time we could get him going down a bad path he heel-turns in the other direction.

I just want Sasuke to die. It's not even that the Uchiha's are taking over the plot, it's that there is pointless plot methods and Sasuke is one of those "Too many men on the field." I am 1000% percent not kidding, I would be more satisfied with Obito being redeemed than Sasuke being redeemed because Obito has at least something to be redeemed from. Darth Vadar was redeemed and yet he killed children with going down the dark side. If that plot can happen and people accept Darth Vadar's redmeption, then Obito's redemption would be good too if done right.

I am so strongly feeling that Sasuke SHOULD have been in Obito's position right now. He should have been the one to side with Madara and try to reform the world. He should have been the one to cause all these problems with Obito being this side character just wanting Rin back and trying to get it by any means necessary. It would have been great to see this side-story with Kakashi seeing Obito alive and wanting to change him with possibly Obito being good in the end.

If Sasuke never existed, then this plot would not be as cluttered.

Unfortunately, if you're going to have villains with no motivation factor behind anything other than insanity, then you're asking for a villain with the complexity and depth of a cardboard cutout.

The demand to demonize your enemies just sound too much like an American comic book or the fear-mongering tactics from politicians.

Sosuke Aizen from Bleach would like a word with you. As with Knives from Trigun. Hazama from Blazblue as well. Kefka Palazzo from Final Fantasy VI just took the number 4 tag ticket.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 19 October 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[Codus N]

I also believe Sasuke is not being developed either because he keeps him at this neutrality level. There is no reason why Sasuke needs to be redeemed other than "Naruto wants to." He doesn't deserve it. He shows no hint to wanting it and every time we could get him going down a bad path he heel-turns in the other direction.

I just want Sasuke to die. It's not even that the Uchiha's are taking over the plot, it's that there is pointless plot methods and Sasuke is one of those "Too many men on the field." I am 1000% percent not kidding, I would be more satisfied with Obito being redeemed than Sasuke being redeemed because Obito has at least something to be redeemed from. Darth Vadar was redeemed and yet he killed children with going down the dark side. If that plot can happen and people accept Darth Vadar's redmeption, then Obito's redemption would be good too if done right.

I am so strongly feeling that Sasuke SHOULD have been in Obito's position right now. He should have been the one to side with Madara and try to reform the world. He should have been the one to cause all these problems with Obito being this side character just wanting Rin back and trying to get it by any means necessary. It would have been great to see this side-story with Kakashi seeing Obito alive and wanting to change him with possibly Obito being good in the end.

If Sasuke never existed, then this plot would not be as cluttered.

This, SO MUCH. While it's true you can argue that Obito has not shown anything that he wants to go back to the good side, but his indifference to just about everything opens up a pretty big opportunity. In fact, chances of him being redeemed are bigger than Sasuke's.

[tricksie]

No, I am not twisting your words around. You're not using the right words.

That's rich. It's a shame you're missing the irony here.

If you said "He want to destroy reality." Then yes, I would agree with you, but there is a difference between destroying a reality and destroying the world. Hell, even if you said "a world," I would have agreed with you. So that's your fault.

Your reality is the world that you live in. Period. If he destroys their reality, then he is in fact destroying their world.

I am really repeating myself at this point. And it's getting old.

Obito is clearly as big of a pawn as Sasuke is. And keeping Kakashi alive is a plot device. Why didn't Obito kill Kakashi, as you have put forth? Simple: it wouldn't work with the plot, otherwise. Kakashi was necessary to be Naruto's sensei. I think Kishimoto has written himself into a corner here with Obito's backstory and now has to write himself back out. Or rather, he has to write himself a bridge over this very large plothole. Obito's actions in that moment he deals with Kakashi are out-of-character, as I've already said. But there is no way Kishimoto can keep the character intact otherwise.

About Hinata.... I'll only touch on this one last time, because I've already explained my pov. Hinata's death on a battlefield is not the same as witnessing one teammate kill the other, or having to kill your teammate to save your other one. Hinata opted in. And she knew it. Naruto witnessed it, but would have made his peace and moved on. Obito has no answers as to why Rin's death occurred, only that it occurred. And he's embracing his grief/revenge/master plan without ever once looking below the surface and asking why. We know why Hinata was doing it! She told him/us! So no, again, it's not the same.

Quality vs. quantity? Again, I'm not doing the whole scoreboard thing. Naruto simply has not experienced as much cruelty through witnessing the firsthand death of a loved one as the others have. You personally, as a reader, may assign to Naruto's experiences more sympathy or heartache or hope for a better outcome. And although the Pain Arc may have been a good opportunity to put Naruto through the fire as a true hero and see how he comes out, it didn't happen. The giant reset button in the sky was hit and Naruto never had to deal with the loss. You say he felt great pain or loss from death, but in fact Naruto sidestepped that. He absolved Pain, but was never accountable to all the people who did feel loss. And then when their lives were returned, Naruto dodged that bullet.

Kishimoto, as a creator, has written an increasingly darker storyline, and has left Naruto out of it. And discussing a plot point that happened 200 chapters/3 years ago reinforces that point. The story doesn't revolve around Naruto. Only how he saves the day, which always has some caveat that allows him to hopscotch over any messy details.

Instead the development is centered on the Uchiha and their storyline. Not Naruto. My personal opinion is that Kishimoto finds it easier to write for the darker characters, who are much more interesting, than for the good characters, who have to live by a more confining moral code and are simply not as entertaining for an author.

[Nate River]

Kishimoto, as a creator, has written an increasingly darker storyline, and has left Naruto out of it. And discussing a plot point that happened 200 chapters/3 years ago reinforces that point. The story doesn't revolve around Naruto. Only how he saves the day, which always has some caveat that allows him to hopscotch over any messy details.

Yes. Absolutely, yes. I had a very lenghty response to James that I now need to redo because my browser crashed. I don't have the time for it now, but I'd add my full agreement to this. The reset button for Nagato is the most egregious example, but it's actually been a very long standing problem.

I'll add more later, but Sasuke's treatement throughout the entirety of Part 2 is a poster child for this . His velvet glove treatment in Part 2 is, I think, is being done precisely to avoid those thorny complications it creates for Naruto. For all his words, notice how little Sasuke has actually been allowed to acomplish.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Unfortunately, if you're going to have villains with no motivation factor behind anything other than insanity, then you're asking for a villain with the complexity and depth of a cardboard cutout.

The demand to demonize your enemies just sound too much like an American comic book or the fear-mongering tactics from politicians.

This manga doesn't need it to define Naruto as a hero, because he's not Batman. Again and again, all about understanding, even if the enemy killed your loved ones. It's what separates Naruto from all the other villains in the series.

That isn't what I'm asking for, here. Look at Kabuto. He's the kind of villain I'm talking about. He had much more than insanity to him, and a good motivation.

Look at these two options:
- A villain that can be talk-no-jutsued
- A villain that is nothing but insane

These are not the only two options. This series needs at least one villain that doesn't fit into either category that makes it until near the end of the series as one of the final conflicts.

[James S Cassidy]

I'm sorry for getting angry. I had a very bad day yesterday and yes, you are right. I was wrong in a few things I have said, however some of you are being very hypocritical about what you want from this manga and here is a novel to explain what everyone's views on the manga on general belief based on several things that have been said from some members.

Every time we discuss villains, the common idea is that we can not have villains that just do things just to do things. That would be "shallow" as some of you would say. Ciadhra says that the "more realistic villains have hardships in their past that either made them insane or made them believe the world is terrible." Nefertieh says "This isn't some American comic book. We need to explain it. There has to be a reason." (paraphrase of course.)

Fair enough, that's what we got. So by that standard that you all set up, Obito is being shown why he became a villain. That's why we are reading all of this now. If there was no explanation and all we got is "Obito is a villain" How many would cry foul saying right now "This is bullcrap?" From what we saw when Obito was revealed, a good half of you complained about having no explanation even before Kishi has a chance to explain. Call me a liar and look back at the threads.

Let me ask you this, what is more interesting? Seeing the hero's past life and how they succeed or watching how the villains fall into darkness? 9/10 of you are going to saying "I much prefer to see the history of the villain." This is because the hero's story happens as we read it and because most hero stories are origin stories. Hardly a time happens when we just come to a hero already being a hero with a vague history.

Now, Obito has gotten NO development until just recently (Not even ten chapters, yet), but some of you think like all we have been doing is talking about Obito for the entire manga. At least this is the tone you all are giving off. Yet over the years all I have ever see is "Kakashi needs more development. Obito needs more development. Such and such character needs more development." Guess what happens when you want a character to gain more development? The main hero has to be put aside just so you can explain it. So what do you want?

Keep in mind of another manga Dragonball where Goku didn't have that much development on a moral or philosophical level either. (Come on. "I conked my head and became a good guy") Yeah he faced problems and villains, but he was never challenged on a moral or philosophical level. Are any of you going to complain about this? Naruto has on several occasions. The worst thing was Goku went through is he got angry a few times but it wasn't a problem. (And well, the thing with the moon.) It wasn't like Naruto who got angry and lost control nearly destroying everyone. Vegeta went through more on comparison to Goku.

Want to see a real ironic thing, Tricksie? The fact that you all want these villains to have detailed pasts and explanations, but then start complaining that the villains take up too much of the story and Naruto is left out not really thinking that Naruto's story is happening in real time or the fact that Naruto's development happened much quicker. (Seems everyone forgot the waterfall chapters, everyone forgot the drama of Sakura confession's, everyone forgot all that has happened in Part 1, everyone forgot everything that has happened to Naruto for the first half of shippuden.)

Also, you all keep forgetting that Naruto's trails always end on a positive note. because as some of you all keep pointng out "The present generation HAS to surpass the previous ones." I guess if Naruto failed, then he wouldn't have surpassed now would he? Again, this is basing off the logic that many of the members presented to me. Naruto has went through the same trails, but succeeded where the past have failed. Let me show you and I'll do this villain by villain. Let's start with the first major villain.

Gaara - shunned as a child, treated as a monster. Village thought he should die. Father did cruel things to him
Naruto - shunned as a child, treated as a monster. Difference: Positive influences. Hokage forbid the parents from telling their kids, and not everyone saw Naruto as a monster. Plus didn't have a heartless father.

Nagato - Best friend was killed by his own hand, but was forced by Yahiko. Double whammy here cause Yahiko was the positive influence.
Naruto - Several friends were thought killed. Some actually did. Difference: Friends were brought back to life or didn't really die.
(And Nate, I know how much you despise this logic with Nagato, but just because you do does not mean you can take it out of the equation every time it is brought up. It was a major factor in developing Naruto's character. Yeah, it is an asspull when everyone got resurrected, but then again how many more manga does this on several occasions in one session. Hey Nefertieh, remember what you said American comic books? Marvel is also guilty of constantly killing and resurrecting their characters too. Again, look at Dragonball and how many times they pulled this off.)

Obito - Best friend killed the love of his life.
Naruto - Best friend/brother attempted to kill the love of his life. Difference: Naruto saved her life and prevented bad stuff happening.

Before, I continue I know someone is going to say "Hey, what about Sasori, Orochimaru, Kabuto, etc. etc?" Well, truth be told, he didn't fight them. Some he didn't even talk to or meet, Some he left to others to fight (Sasori and Hidan) , some he just wiped them out off the bat (Kakuzu), some either didn't have an opposite view or didn't contribute any moral opposition (Haku and Zabuza). Sasuke? Now, here is the interesting part. This is a character who Naruto can actually put up an opposing argument to on another subject.

Sasuke - brother killed family and left orphaned, but was well liked by Konoha and very popular.
Naruto - Parents killed (indirectly) by Obito, but wasn't popular or well liked either by the crowd in the beginning.

Naruto does not know what it feels like to have your brother kill your family, but then Sasuke does not know what it is like to be treated like a monster regardless of who you actually are. In comes, Tricksie: "But Sasuke went through a lot worse than just being shunned." This is true, but because he was loved and respected in Konoha is what kills the sympathy. The dude was popular. Yeah, he had a tragic past, but his life wasn't constantly tragic. It's not like he lived a life of hardship and loneliness and if he did, it was because he chose to. He could have stayed in Konoha and find better reasons to live than revenge and did exactly what Itachi wanted him to. He chose to live this lifestyle.

As I said, Sasuke gets this unwanted attention constantly and it doesn't even serve to strengthen any plot point. At best, the only thing it has strengthened is the relationship between Naruto and Sakura to the point of them being a couple. Is this the point? I don't know. Sasuke is not really questioning Naruto's morals when we have Nagato, Obito, and (in the past) Gaara doing that already. Sakura put up a bigger moral compass to Naruto and so has Sai.

Of course, though, we have to remember that we are talking about villains compared to the hero. Sasuke is not a villain. He is an opposition like a wall blocking a path. (Jokes: I actually think the wall is more entertaining to watch) Obito is a villain though.

See what everyone is complaining about is that Naruto doesn't fail. The only thing he has failed is bringing Sasuke back. Other than that, every thing else has been a success, but if he fails then Naruto fails to surpass the previous generation. Do you see the hypocrisy in this? I am basing my logic not on my views, but what I have seen on the views of what all you guys have been saying over the years.

"All the dark history is used on the villains." Well, of course. How else are you going to drive them insane? How else are they going to become villains? You said so yourself you want the villains to be well development. "I want the dark history on Naruto" Well, to quote Nefertieh again "Naruto is not Batman." Naruto is more related to Spider-man if we want to make a comparison.

Obito's development is what many deem "necessary development." He is a main villain, so he needs it. What I call unnecessary development is once again what Sasuke has gotten between the Danzou fight to about now for example. I believe this is what is causing the most problems. If a lot of the unneeded focus was away from Sasuke, then the Uchihas wouldn't feel so much like the main focus. If you took parts of the story away from Sasuke and instead focused it more on Naruto, then none of you would be complaining right now.

You want Naruto to have dark history? How about Sasuke dying? Maybe even Sasuke being turned into a gruesome puppet of Madara like Obito with Naruto having to do the unthinkable and kill his own best friend to save him. That would certainly be a real twist, but as some of you said this can not happen because Naruto needs to succeed where the past has failed. To give a character dark history he first must fail.

Let's take the examples we have of potential failures. What if none of the people who Nagato killed were resurrected? That means Hinata dies which pisses off the NaruHina fans something fierce and so does Kakashi which means we will never know the history behind Obito or why he killed Rin. (And Gai is hopeless so forget him telling you the history.) What if Sasuke killed Sakura? That means that not only does NaruHina not happen, but neither does NaruSaku. This does make Sasuke a bigger villain, but as Nate pointed out in one of last discussions this makes the hero look stupid for "forgiving" him and diminishes the heroes credibility. What if Gaara succeeded in killing Sakura back in part 1? Then Sasuke couldn't kill her in Shippuden. What if Gaara died when they sucked the tailed-beast out? Now you would never know that his mother loved him and wanted nothing, but the best for him. Wasted potential?

You see how much you alter in the story if Naruto actually fails on a grand scale? And this is just some of the points, there are many ways he could have failed along the story arc.

You all want Naruto to fail on a grand scale and give a more edgier tone. Make the hero fallible and not always able to win. That's what you're looking for, right? You want Naruto to fail in an aspect that even though he wins the battle, he can lose the war so to speak. However, just think about this, to have him fail on a grand scale contradicts what everyone says when they say "Succeed where the past have failed."

If Naruto fails on a minor aspect however you personally, Tricksie, would be saying the same thing you're saying now: "It's not the same. It's not comparable." So Kishi has several choices

- Naruto succeeds in everything he does and the villains always lose. Albeit just shake Naruto's foundation a bit.

- Naruto fails sometimes on some major problems, but then this would go against, what people believe, the main moral point of the story in that the "newer generation will succeed where the past failed." If many claim this is not true, then some of you would not be against Sasuke dying in the end or other choices changing. Keep this in mind.

- Naruto will get more focus, but then some villains would not get the history they do get. To some this will make the villain shallow. I supposed you could lengthen the story to include the stuff needed, but like I said be weary of unnecessary development or being too long winded like this post.

Why doesn't Kishi push the boundaries of what he can do? Personally I blame us, the fans. We don't know what we want and if anything changes that we do not like we freak out and complain that it is terrible writing. Tobi is Obito? "Oh Kishi ruined it. Terrible writing." Hinata dies? NaruHina fans: "That's not fair, NaruHina was supposed to be canon." Sakura dies? Us: "That's crap. Why kill off a main character like that?" Naruto gets too much time? "The villains are too shallow." The villains get focus? "The hero is not in it enough."

We don't know what we want from this story because no matter what he does, some one whines. So, I blame us. I blame the reason why he has asspulls. I blame the reason why some things don't happen. Instead of enjoying the story for what he writes, we instead want to tell him how to write it. Again, call me a liar if you must, but this is true. We constantly whine about things that don't go our way. Yes criticism makes things better, but you can't make everything happen. You can't make Naruto end up with both Hinata and Sakura. You can't give the villains a back story AND include the hero in it to develop him at the same time. This is especially true when the back story happens way before the hero is born.

If you can't admit that maybe you are asking for too much. If you can't admit that maybe occasionally you whine too much, then no wonder the manga sucks to some. Yeah, I want stuff to happen too, but that doesn't mean it should happen. I want Sasuke to die, I want Naruto to end up with Sakura, I want Obito to be redeemed in the end, I want a villain who became bad because he thought it was fun (insane or not), but I have to accept that these might not happen.

We still have so much more to go before this manga ends and in any of that time things could change drastically. It could get a darker tone, it could have multiple deaths and problems. A war is still going on. If I have learned anything from story writing it's that in most stories, it always gets darkest before the dawn. It's always get worse before it gets better and right when you think the hero is going to go down this time...he finds a way to win. That kind of moment is something really special.

I don't know how this manga is going to end, but I am not going to sit here pretending I do. If none of this is what you are talking about and I am completely talking about something else, then yes I have no friggin' idea what you are talking about. Either because you don't know what you're talking about or you're not getting your point across clear enough.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 21 October 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[Chucky-kun]

I'm sorry for getting angry. I had a very bad day yesterday and yes, you are right. I was wrong in a few things I have said, however some of you are being very hypocritical about what you want from this manga and here is a novel to explain what everyone's views on the manga on general belief based on several things that have been said from some members.

Every time we discuss villains, the common idea is that we can not have villains that just do things just to do things. That would be "shallow" as some of you would say. Ciadhra says that the "more realistic villains have hardships in their past that either made them insane or made them believe the world is terrible." Nefertieh says "This isn't some American comic book. We need to explain it. There has to be a reason." (paraphrase of course.)

Fair enough, that's what we got. So by that standard that you all set up, Obito is being shown why he became a villain. That's why we are reading all of this now. If there was no explanation and all we got is "Obito is a villain" How many would cry foul saying right now "This is bullcrap?" From what we saw when Obito was revealed, a good half of you complained about having no explanation even before Kishi has a chance to explain. Call me a liar and look back at the threads.

Let me ask you this, what is more interesting? Seeing the hero's past life and how they succeed or watching how the villains fall into darkness? 9/10 of you are going to saying "I much prefer to see the history of the villain." This is because the hero's story happens as we read it and because most hero stories are origin stories. Hardly a time happens when we just come to a hero already being a hero with a vague history.

Now, Obito has gotten NO development until just recently (Not even ten chapters, yet), but some of you think like all we have been doing is talking about Obito for the entire manga. At least this is the tone you all are giving off. Yet over the years all I have ever see is "Kakashi needs more development. Obito needs more development. Such and such character needs more development." Guess what happens when you want a character to gain more development? The main hero has to be put aside just so you can explain it. So what do you want?

Keep in mind of another manga Dragonball where Goku didn't have that much development on a moral or philosophical level either. (Come on. "I conked my head and became a good guy") Yeah he faced problems and villains, but he was never challenged on a moral or philosophical level. Are any of you going to complain about this? Naruto has on several occasions. The worst thing was Goku went through is he got angry a few times but it wasn't a problem. (And well, the thing with the moon.) It wasn't like Naruto who got angry and lost control nearly destroying everyone. Vegeta went through more on comparison to Goku.

Want to see a real ironic thing, Tricksie? The fact that you all want these villains to have detailed pasts and explanations, but then start complaining that the villains take up too much of the story and Naruto is left out not really thinking that Naruto's story is happening in real time or the fact that Naruto's development happened much quicker. (Seems everyone forgot the waterfall chapters, everyone forgot the drama of Sakura confession's, everyone forgot all that has happened in Part 1, everyone forgot everything that has happened to Naruto for the first half of shippuden.)

Also, you all keep forgetting that Naruto's trails always end on a positive note. because as some of you all keep pointng out "The present generation HAS to surpass the previous ones." I guess if Naruto failed, then he wouldn't have surpassed now would he? Again, this is basing off the logic that many of the members presented to me. Naruto has went through the same trails, but succeeded where the past have failed. Let me show you and I'll do this villain by villain. Let's start with the first major villain.

Gaara - shunned as a child, treated as a monster. Village thought he should die. Father did cruel things to him
Naruto - shunned as a child, treated as a monster. Difference: Positive influences. Hokage forbid the parents from telling their kids, and not everyone saw Naruto as a monster. Plus didn't have a heartless father.

Nagato - Best friend was killed by his own hand, but was forced by Yahiko. Double whammy here cause Yahiko was the positive influence.
Naruto - Several friends were thought killed. Some actually did. Difference: Friends were brought back to life or didn't really die.
(And Nate, I know how much you despise this logic with Nagato, but just because you do does not mean you can take it out of the equation every time it is brought up. It was a major factor in developing Naruto's character. Yeah, it is an asspull when everyone got resurrected, but then again how many more manga does this on several occasions in one session. Hey Nefertieh, remember what you said American comic books? Marvel is also guilty of constantly killing and resurrecting their characters too. Again, look at Dragonball and how many times they pulled this off.)

Obito - Best friend killed the love of his life.
Naruto - Best friend/brother attempted to kill the love of his life. Difference: Naruto saved her life and prevented bad stuff happening.

Before, I continue I know someone is going to say "Hey, what about Sasori, Orochimaru, Kabuto, etc. etc?" Well, truth be told, he didn't fight them. Some he didn't even talk to or meet, Some he left to others to fight (Sasori and Hidan) , some he just wiped them out off the bat (Kakuzu), some either didn't have an opposite view or didn't contribute any moral opposition (Haku and Zabuza). Sasuke? Now, here is the interesting part. This is a character who Naruto can actually put up an opposing argument to on another subject.

Sasuke - brother killed family and left orphaned, but was well liked by Konoha and very popular.
Naruto - Parents killed (indirectly) by Obito, but wasn't popular or well liked either by the crowd in the beginning.

Naruto does not know what it feels like to have your brother kill your family, but then Sasuke does not know what it is like to be treated like a monster regardless of who you actually are. In comes, Tricksie: "But Sasuke went through a lot worse than just being shunned." This is true, but because he was loved and respected in Konoha is what kills the sympathy. The dude was popular. Yeah, he had a tragic past, but his life wasn't constantly tragic. It's not like he lived a life of hardship and loneliness and if he did, it was because he chose to. He could have stayed in Konoha and find better reasons to live than revenge and did exactly what Itachi wanted him to. He chose to live this lifestyle.

As I said, Sasuke gets this unwanted attention constantly and it doesn't even serve to strengthen any plot point. At best, the only thing it has strengthened is the relationship between Naruto and Sakura to the point of them being a couple. Is this the point? I don't know. Sasuke is not really questioning Naruto's morals when we have Nagato, Obito, and (in the past) Gaara doing that already. Sakura put up a bigger moral compass to Naruto and so has Sai.

Of course, though, we have to remember that we are talking about villains compared to the hero. Sasuke is not a villain. He is an opposition like a wall blocking a path. (Jokes: I actually think the wall is more entertaining to watch) Obito is a villain though.

See what everyone is complaining about is that Naruto doesn't fail. The only thing he has failed is bringing Sasuke back. Other than that, every thing else has been a success, but if he fails then Naruto fails to surpass the previous generation. Do you see the hypocrisy in this? I am basing my logic not on my views, but what I have seen on the views of what all you guys have been saying over the years.

"All the dark history is used on the villains." Well, of course. How else are you going to drive them insane? How else are they going to become villains? You said so yourself you want the villains to be well development. "I want the dark history on Naruto" Well, to quote Nefertieh again "Naruto is not Batman." Naruto is more related to Spider-man if we want to make a comparison.

Obito's development is what many deem "necessary development." He is a main villain, so he needs it. What I call unnecessary development is once again what Sasuke has gotten between the Danzou fight to about now for example. I believe this is what is causing the most problems. If a lot of the unneeded focus was away from Sasuke, then the Uchihas wouldn't feel so much like the main focus. If you took parts of the story away from Sasuke and instead focused it more on Naruto, then none of you would be complaining right now.

You want Naruto to have dark history? How about Sasuke dying? Maybe even Sasuke being turned into a gruesome puppet of Madara like Obito with Naruto having to do the unthinkable and kill his own best friend to save him. That would certainly be a real twist, but as some of you said this can not happen because Naruto needs to succeed where the past has failed. To give a character dark history he first must fail.

Let's take the examples we have of potential failures. What if none of the people who Nagato killed were resurrected? That means Hinata dies which pisses off the NaruHina fans something fierce and so does Kakashi which means we will never know the history behind Obito or why he killed Rin. (And Gai is hopeless so forget him telling you the history.) What if Sasuke killed Sakura? That means that not only does NaruHina not happen, but neither does NaruSaku. This does make Sasuke a bigger villain, but as Nate pointed out in one of last discussions this makes the hero look stupid for "forgiving" him and diminishes the heroes credibility. What if Gaara succeeded in killing Sakura back in part 1? Then Sasuke couldn't kill her in Shippuden. What if Gaara died when they sucked the tailed-beast out? Now you would never know that his mother loved him and wanted nothing, but the best for him. Wasted potential?

You see how much you alter in the story if Naruto actually fails on a grand scale? And this is just some of the points, there are many ways he could have failed along the story arc.

You all want Naruto to fail on a grand scale and give a more edgier tone. Make the hero fallible and not always able to win. That's what you're looking for, right? You want Naruto to fail in an aspect that even though he wins the battle, he can lose the war so to speak. However, just think about this, to have him fail on a grand scale contradicts what everyone says when they say "Succeed where the past have failed."

If Naruto fails on a minor aspect however you personally, Tricksie, would be saying the same thing you're saying now: "It's not the same. It's not comparable." So Kishi has several choices

- Naruto succeeds in everything he does and the villains always lose. Albeit just shake Naruto's foundation a bit.

- Naruto fails sometimes on some major problems, but then this would go against, what people believe, the main moral point of the story in that the "newer generation will succeed where the past failed." If many claim this is not true, then some of you would not be against Sasuke dying in the end or other choices changing. Keep this in mind.

- Naruto will get more focus, but then some villains would not get the history they do get. To some this will make the villain shallow. I supposed you could lengthen the story to include the stuff needed, but like I said be weary of unnecessary development or being too long winded like this post.

Why doesn't Kishi push the boundaries of what he can do? Personally I blame us, the fans. We don't know what we want and if anything changes that we do not like we freak out and complain that it is terrible writing. Tobi is Obito? "Oh Kishi ruined it. Terrible writing." Hinata dies? NaruHina fans: "That's not fair, NaruHina was supposed to be canon." Sakura dies? Us: "That's crap. Why kill off a main character like that?" Naruto gets too much time? "The villains are too shallow." The villains get focus? "The hero is not in it enough."

We don't know what we want from this story because no matter what he does, some one whines. So, I blame us. I blame the reason why he has asspulls. I blame the reason why some thins don't happen. Instead of enjoying the story for what he rights, we instead want to tell him how to write it. Again, call me a liar if you must, but this is true. We constantly whine about things that don't go our way. Yeah criticism makes things better, but you can't make everything happen. You can't make Naruto end up with both Hinata and Sakura. You can't give the villains a back story AND include the hero in it to develop him at the same time. This is especially true when the back story happens way before the hero is born.

If you can't admit that maybe you are asking for too much. If you can't admit that maybe occasionally you whine too much, then no wonder the manga sucks to some. Yeah, I want stuff to happen too, but that doesn't mean it should happen. I want Sasuke to die, I want Naruto to end up with Sakura, I want Obito to be redeemed in the end, I want a villain who became bad because he thought it was fun (insane or not), but I have to accept that these might not happen.

We still have so much more to go before this manga ends and in any of that time things could change drastically. It could get a darker tone, it could have multiple deaths and problems. A war is still going on. If I have learned anything from story writing it's that in most stories, it always gets darkest before the dawn. It's always get worse before it gets better and right when you think the hero is going to go down this time...he finds a way to win. That kind of moment is something really special.

I don't know this manga is going to end, but I am not going to sit here pretending I do. If none of this is what you are talking about and I am completely talking about something else, then yes I have no friggin' idea what you are talking about. Either because you don't know what you're talking about or you're not getting your point across clear enough.

I applaud you