154 replies to this topic

[tricksie]

I'm a little disappointed by a few things in this chapter that I don't think have been mentioned before:

First off, Sasuke's dialogue about "Tobi" is a little distant. And almost distrustful. ("That Tobi.... It seems that he waged war huh....") It's as if he was choosing whether he went along with Tobi's plan or not. That sounds like a significant shift in Sasuke's character, as Sasuke has always done what Tobi said, whether he completely believed him or not. I'm not saying that Sasuke's not used Tobi for his own purposes, but to come out and act like they are on different paths gives Sasuke a little more backbone than he's had before. And I'd rather seem some accountability for that personality shift, rather than just a clumsy sentence.

Also, "Tobi"? Since when was Sasuke calling him "Tobi"? I thought it was Madara. I'd be curious to see the translation.

Lastly, I'm so ticked with Sasuke's weak speech about upholding his promise to go after Naruto before going after those in his village. WHAT?!?!? Sasuke, you're the frickin' villain! Do what you want!

Fear is what made Pein so powerful. And here Sasuke has just thrown it away. Then again, maybe if Itachi went after Danzo first, he wouldn't have had to kill his family and mentally torture Sasuke which is why he's the way he is today. duhdoy.

Anyway, both of these are weak set-ups for Sasuke without having to go through the effort of character development. If Sasuke is shown as being on a separate path from Madara/Tobi, then it will be easier for Itachi to get through to him. (But we still know nothing of why Sasuke feels that way and what has made him change.) And if Sasuke declares he's going after Naruto first, then everyone else (readers included) can rest easy that he's not going to inflict maximum damage. His battle is now with a self-imposed limit of one person. It's a weak excuse for why one of the most powerful shinobi's of the day won't use his power. Compare it to Pein: He came for Naruto, but he had no qualms going for maximum damage.

Sasuke, however, has done an about-face in his character this chapter. What happened to the guy who wanted to turn the laughter of the Konoha people into screams of terror? Since when does Sasuke uphold a promise? Did he forget how to be an avenger? Isn't that what he got Itachi's eyes for — to cleanse his clan name by wiping away Konoha? Now he's letting a rivalry with Naruto dictate his conditions for revenge. Anyway, to me, this is a shift away from the wide-open Sasuke we've seen so far.

[Shadow Wolf]

What happened to the guy who wanted to turn the laughter of the Konoha people into screams of terror? Since when does Sasuke uphold a promise? Did he forget how to be an avenger? Isn't that what he got Itachi's eyes for — to cleanse his clan name by wiping away Konoha? Now he's letting a rivalry with Naruto dictate his conditions for revenge. Anyway, to me, this is a shift away from the wide-open Sasuke we've seen so far.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, Naruto is the reason why Sasuke hurried to get Itachi's eyes.

Edited by Shadow Wolf, 17 February 2012 - 01:20 AM.

[Dragunov]

Naruto stands in the way of Sasuke wants. He knows that if he wants to get rid of the villagers, he has to go through Naruto first. And besides, he wants to kill him more than the others right now.

[RedDelicious]

Now he's letting a rivalry with Naruto dictate his conditions for revenge. Anyway, to me, this is a shift away from the wide-open Sasuke we've seen so far.

I'd say that Sasuke's need to have others share his pain is not his primary motivation.
I've always viewed him as having an inferiority complex, which Itachi (in his desire to keep Sasuke alive) pushed into full-blown craziness. Sasuke sees people in two categories:
1) Those weaker than him. He mocks them and claims they are useless.
2) Those who rival or are better than him. Sasuke on the inside fears them, but on the outside he will get angry, wait until he gets stronger to attack them (until they fall into category 1), and all the while bluster to try to persuade himself that he is still better.

In recent (manga) times, Sasuke has heard from Tobi (among others) that Naruto is stronger than he is. (Post-Pein is what comes to mind.) And in the past, Naruto would *rant* that he is just as good, but in their last encounter Naruto *calmly* explained that Sasuke cannot beat him (without killing both of them). This change in attitude is part of why Sasuke wanted the power up from Itachi's eyes (like Shadow Wolf said). I'd say that Sasuke's ego would clearly put the threat of Naruto ahead of spreading misery to others.

In my case, I kinda liked seeing that, even though Sasuke has moved past eye-bleeding hysterical laughter, he is still completely off the deep end when he is *acting* rational.

Edited by RedDelicious, 17 February 2012 - 02:03 AM.

[Nate River]

Also, "Tobi"? Since when was Sasuke calling him "Tobi"? I thought it was Madara. I'd be curious to see the translation.

Everyone in the ninja alliance knows Tobi and Madara aren't the same because they saw the body. How did Sasuke figure it out since he hasn't seen the original?

Lastly, I'm so ticked with Sasuke's weak speech about upholding his promise to go after Naruto before going after those in his village. WHAT?!?!? Sasuke, you're the frickin' villain! Do what you want!

I was going to make a post about this, but abandoned it because I got lazy.

But yeah, this, screams Sasuke will be redeemed and likely remain alive. I can only think of a few logical reasons to do this. The most likely is Sasuke's redemption because it will significantly harder to sell should he off any of the rookies and virtually impossible if he offs innocent villagers, especially if that redemption involves him ever coming back to the village. Larger numbers of fans already have trouble swallowing his redemption after all he's done, how seriously will they take Naruto if Sasuke starts killing off innocents that had nothing to do with Uchiha and good characters people have attachments to. The obvious question would arise that what on earth does Sasuke need to do before Naruto realizes he needs to die?

I still strong believe Sasuke's current choice of action is strongly motivated by this problem.

[Broken Figurine]

I think their entire existence has been awkward. Given Sasuke's stated goals and his intent from the moment he left Konoha to sever all his bonds I always thought the formation of the team was odd. I though it even more bizarre when he changed the name from Snake to Hawk and some of the things he said about that. To me, their existence never fit with most of things coming from his mouth.

Oh, I agree with you there, but you know, I was hoping that now that Sasuke was back to being solo-mofo and with their disappearance from the manga they'd be allowed to exit just fine. I thought Karin was resolved beyond what I had expected of her prior to. She got stabbed, she weakly tried to dissuade Sasuke from killing Sakura, they shared a moment, she seemed to come to her senses regarding Sasuke, and was being taken prisoner. Nicely wrapped for a character I couldn't stand and didn't think I could feel a hint of remorse for. Now they bring her back, and it is not her per say, just how stupid her capture is being handled. From the interrogation and now this, it can't be excused--those are really incompetent ninja. Rather than making her look clever, it makes Konoha look dumb.

Then with that whole Orochimaru subplot... I groaned when I read it. I was against their team when they were formed, but I was looking forward to it being short-lived and this so far is the most awkward because ANY reasoning of them being remotely anything like a team, and their purpose to the storyline, is out the window. -shakes fist- Sasuke and the story don't need them right now, and honestly they never did, but I was hoping for a somewhat dignified exit.

I'm a little disappointed by a few things in this chapter that I don't think have been mentioned before:

First off, Sasuke's dialogue about "Tobi" is a little distant. And almost distrustful. ("That Tobi.... It seems that he waged war huh....") It's as if he was choosing whether he went along with Tobi's plan or not. That sounds like a significant shift in Sasuke's character, as Sasuke has always done what Tobi said, whether he completely believed him or not. I'm not saying that Sasuke's not used Tobi for his own purposes, but to come out and act like they are on different paths gives Sasuke a little more backbone than he's had before. And I'd rather seem some accountability for that personality shift, rather than just a clumsy sentence.

Also, "Tobi"? Since when was Sasuke calling him "Tobi"? I thought it was Madara. I'd be curious to see the translation.

Lastly, I'm so ticked with Sasuke's weak speech about upholding his promise to go after Naruto before going after those in his village. WHAT?!?!? Sasuke, you're the frickin' villain! Do what you want!

Fear is what made Pein so powerful. And here Sasuke has just thrown it away. Then again, maybe if Itachi went after Danzo first, he wouldn't have had to kill his family and mentally torture Sasuke which is why he's the way he is today. duhdoy.

Anyway, both of these are weak set-ups for Sasuke without having to go through the effort of character development. If Sasuke is shown as being on a separate path from Madara/Tobi, then it will be easier for Itachi to get through to him. (But we still know nothing of why Sasuke feels that way and what has made him change.) And if Sasuke declares he's going after Naruto first, then everyone else (readers included) can rest easy that he's not going to inflict maximum damage. His battle is now with a self-imposed limit of one person. It's a weak excuse for why one of the most powerful shinobi's of the day won't use his power. Compare it to Pein: He came for Naruto, but he had no qualms going for maximum damage.

Sasuke, however, has done an about-face in his character this chapter. What happened to the guy who wanted to turn the laughter of the Konoha people into screams of terror? Since when does Sasuke uphold a promise? Did he forget how to be an avenger? Isn't that what he got Itachi's eyes for — to cleanse his clan name by wiping away Konoha? Now he's letting a rivalry with Naruto dictate his conditions for revenge. Anyway, to me, this is a shift away from the wide-open Sasuke we've seen so far.

His actions are baffling, and I agree with Nate's explanation for it (though I seem to tend to agree with him in general I find, no surprise here). It seems like an excuse for Sasuke not to kill of any important characters and therefore not completely screw over his chances of redemption. Which is weird, because I would have thought he would go the route of killing everyone Naruto loves and then killing him, which I thought was implied, but I think my brain made that up... Or, it's building up to a "if you lose here, and I come out of this alive, everyone will die" threat/speech but still. I was looking forward to carnage (I am a horrible person) when he was introduced last chapter with that evil expression.

He still has a bit of it, though. He's clearly crazy, but he seems more collected. I think he made Naruto his goal, so he's channelling all that craziness onto on person. He acknowledges that Naruto is probably the one nuisance in his life that could ruin everything--he seems to understand they are equals, and if he ever wants to get in his way, go to the hero first. He may feel that if he truly wants to unleash all of these murderous feelings, he has to get rid of Naruto and prove he is stronger.

Still, this doesn't answer why he can't plow through anyone who happens to cross his path... I'm sure no one would step aside and let him fight Naruto, so there would be bound to be obstacles. Since everyone is going to Naruto anyways, maybe he doesn't really have to deal with that... BUT HE DOESN'T KNOW THAT. So his decision is pretty "convenient". I wish it was more of a case that he didn't meet up with anyone (aside from Itachi) before finding Naruto... It would work ;-; They are all travelling together! Even if he did, at least he could legitimately say that to inflict damage upon that many people all together would waste what he needs to put toward his fight with Naruto.

As for Tobi, the only other time I could remember Sasuke implying he wasn't actually on his side was prior to fighting Bee, as something he revealed to his teammates. Perhaps now that he has the eyes, he has forfeited his "partnership"? Hmm... He shouldn't be calling him Tobi, though, unless the man had revealed something to him he should not have... which wouldn't make sense because that would make his story false. Ugh, no, I'm done trying XD

This was just not a good chapter. XD I enjoyed the art, I guess, because I do think Sasuke's expressions worked, even if what he said didn't... That, and I stand by that Itachi showing up again with an implied meeting between the two brothers is a good thing.

[tricksie]

His actions are baffling, and I agree with Nate's explanation for it (though I seem to tend to agree with him in general I find, no surprise here). It seems like an excuse for Sasuke not to kill of any important characters and therefore not completely screw over his chances of redemption. Which is weird, because I would have thought he would go the route of killing everyone Naruto loves and then killing him, which I thought was implied, but I think my brain made that up... Or, it's building up to a "if you lose here, and I come out of this alive, everyone will die" threat/speech but still. I was looking forward to carnage (I am a horrible person) when he was introduced last chapter with that evil expression.

No, I was also looking forward to seeing what Sasuke had up his sleeve. Would he kill everyone or disable them like he did in the test with Orochimaru? (And comparing that time to his recent speeches shows how much he's changed as well.) I was curious to see what route he would take.

As for Tobi, the only other time I could remember Sasuke implying he wasn't actually on his side was prior to fighting Bee, as something he revealed to his teammates. Perhaps now that he has the eyes, he has forfeited his "partnership"? Hmm... He shouldn't be calling him Tobi, though, unless the man had revealed something to him he should not have... which wouldn't make sense because that would make his story false. Ugh, no, I'm done trying XD

This was just not a good chapter. XD I enjoyed the art, I guess, because I do think Sasuke's expressions worked, even if what he said didn't... That, and I stand by that Itachi showing up again with an implied meeting between the two brothers is a good thing.

Another snippet from Sasuke's conversation was that he passed through empty cities. What? Aren't we still only in the second day of the war? Have they evacuated all the civilians already? It's just a weird piece of information to drop.
- Why doesn't Tobi send the zetsus to wreak havoc on the hometowns, causing dismay on the battlefront and fracturing the worried troops? Any good villian would use that opportunity, and Tobi's goal is world domination. No just the capture of Naruto.
- Is Kishimoto just using Sasuke as a mouthpiece to explain the parameters of the battles to come: No one else will be hurt other than Naruto. The cities are empty so no one will be hurt if they fight there. Sasuke may or may not fight for Tobi.

@Nate, I agree completely - I think it's all done to reinforce Sasuke's redemption theme. He's killed people, but no one in cold blood who wasn't already involved in the conflict. So no one truly unjustly. Even Sakura. Which I am sure is going to be somehow unveiled to have been a ploy. (Not for some kind of Sasu/Saku, but having a greater good behind it. Before anyone argues against that, remember Itachi fought Sasuke to the death with the plan to remove his eyes, and he was still redeemed. Even after all the people he did kill in cold blood. Winging a kunai at Sakura pales in comparison.) Anyway, I agree, Kishimoto is laying the groundwork for Sasuke to be redeemed. It had to start sometime, I suppose.

@reddelicious, you're right about Sasuke's inferiority complex. I was just hoping he would be a more dedicated villain and focus on his goal despite the rivalry. Going about achieving it in any way possible. But we as an audience are not meant to hate him. He will not be an Orochimaru or a Tobi. Sasuke, above all else, is a pawn. Even now, Naruto is pressing his buttons. He just doesn't realize it. And that's always been his biggest stumbling block.

[RedDelicious]

@reddelicious, you're right about Sasuke's inferiority complex. I was just hoping he would be a more dedicated villain and focus on his goal despite the rivalry. Going about achieving it in any way possible. But we as an audience are not meant to hate him. He will not be an Orochimaru or a Tobi. Sasuke, above all else, is a pawn. Even now, Naruto is pressing his buttons. He just doesn't realize it. And that's always been his biggest stumbling block.

I would be surprised if this actually came about, but imagine this:
Sasuke becomes a key player in the defeat of Tobi/Madara. The Leaf village welcomes back their rock star, despite any misgivings from Naruto or the other important ninjas. Then the next night, while (most of) the village sleeps peacefully, Sasuke starts an Itachi-style extermination.

Obviously, in this imagined scenario, he would be discovered/stopped by Naruto and Sakura. (They know him best.)
But if it happened... I think that would hit all of the points you wanted (hate-able, "achieving it in any way possible", Itachi-obsession).

Edited by RedDelicious, 17 February 2012 - 10:48 PM.

[tricksie]

I would be surprised if this actually came about, but imagine this:
Sasuke becomes a key player in the defeat of Tobi/Madara. The Leaf village welcomes back their rock star, despite any misgivings from Naruto or the other important ninjas. Then the next night, while (most of) the village sleeps peacefully, Sasuke starts an Itachi-style extermination.

Obviously, in this imagined scenario, he would be discovered/stopped by Naruto and Sakura. (They know him best.)
But if it happened... I think that would hit all of the points you wanted (hate-able, "achieving it in any way possible", Itachi-obsession).

Wow - wouldn't that be a spectacular plot twist! He'd become the polar opposite of Itachi. Where Itachi did deplorable acts but was hiding his good intentions, Sasuke would mask his true agenda behind good deeds. I love it!

[KeikoxYusuke]

I would be surprised if this actually came about, but imagine this:
Sasuke becomes a key player in the defeat of Tobi/Madara. The Leaf village welcomes back their rock star, despite any misgivings from Naruto or the other important ninjas. Then the next night, while (most of) the village sleeps peacefully, Sasuke starts an Itachi-style extermination.

Obviously, in this imagined scenario, he would be discovered/stopped by Naruto and Sakura. (They know him best.)
But if it happened... I think that would hit all of the points you wanted (hate-able, "achieving it in any way possible", Itachi-obsession).

that thought blows my mind... just goes to show you that anything can happen in this Manga... to a point, what a awesome post!

[Strangelove]

I would be surprised if this actually came about, but imagine this:
Sasuke becomes a key player in the defeat of Tobi/Madara. The Leaf village welcomes back their rock star, despite any misgivings from Naruto or the other important ninjas. Then the next night, while (most of) the village sleeps peacefully, Sasuke starts an Itachi-style extermination.

Obviously, in this imagined scenario, he would be discovered/stopped by Naruto and Sakura. (They know him best.)
But if it happened... I think that would hit all of the points you wanted (hate-able, "achieving it in any way possible", Itachi-obsession).

That's a lot of fanfiction there...

[Dragunov]

I would be surprised if this actually came about, but imagine this:
Sasuke becomes a key player in the defeat of Tobi/Madara. The Leaf village welcomes back their rock star, despite any misgivings from Naruto or the other important ninjas. Then the next night, while (most of) the village sleeps peacefully, Sasuke starts an Itachi-style extermination.

Obviously, in this imagined scenario, he would be discovered/stopped by Naruto and Sakura. (They know him best.)
But if it happened... I think that would hit all of the points you wanted (hate-able, "achieving it in any way possible", Itachi-obsession).

Hmm... that would be very convenient........ they would not see it coming.

[Nutt Man 117]

So Suigetsu just happens to randomly find a scroll from Orochimaru's hideout that was conveniently right next to them without them knowing which so happens be capable of turning the tide of the war? Well that's not too random is it?

Seriously that was way to outta the blue! Why do Sasuke and Jugo need to be in this feud between Sasuke and Naruto. Why do they need to be in this war no less. They're are plenty of more interesting things going in the manga currently.

[Fyuria'sLeo]

So Suigetsu just happens to randomly find a scroll from Orochimaru's hideout that was conveniently right next to them without them knowing which so happens be capable of turning the tide of the war? Well that's not too random is it?

Seriously that was way to outta the blue! Why do Sasuke and Jugo need to be in this feud between Sasuke and Naruto. Why do they need to be in this war no less. They're are plenty of more interesting things going in the manga currently.

What we dont know is what side the scroll will help.... The alliance or the Zetsu army.

[Phantom_999]

I think we're taking the love interests and intricacies of fictional relationships waaaayyy too seriously here....

If we weren't, we wouldn't be shipping fans!

[Fyuria'sLeo]

If we weren't, we wouldn't be shipping fans!

Some here like to read cause there fans of the story not the pairing or they dont care about the pairing. But I understand where SU is coming from.

[Phantom_999]

I said SHIPPING fans not we're not fans if we didn't care about pairings shipping sometimes leads to obsession. I know that for a fact.

[Rocket]

I said SHIPPING fans not we're not fans if we didn't care about pairings shipping sometimes leads to obsession. I know that for a fact.

And there you just said it.

Not every fan who ships is necessarily like that. There are many people out there that aren't avid shipping fans but still support pairings in a way.

[pharix]

remember Itachi fought Sasuke to the death with the plan to remove his eyes

he wasn't planning on it, he wanted Sasuke to believe he was batsh*t insane (and probably telling Sasuke that he should take his eyes)

[Phantom_999]

And there you just said it.

Not every fan who ships is necessarily like that. There are many people out there that aren't avid shipping fans but still support pairings in a way.

I did not direct that at everyone. I already know that some fans ship without obsessing about it. Did I say it it sometimes leads to obsession with EVERYONE?

Edited by Phantom_999, 18 February 2012 - 05:01 PM.