216 replies to this topic

[PachucoDesigns]

I didn't mean Naruto or Sasuke when I said "any of the K11". That's why I put them in the list I gave of the tough guys. I would also like to add that the 1st and 4th hokage would be a nice addition to the tough guys.

Of course they would. lol They're legendary. The only ones to put the biggest and baddest of the Uchiha in his place.

[Shadow Wolf]

Could the kages beat any of the K11, or any of the jonins? Of course.

Could they really? At this point, I severely doubt most of the Kages could beat Naruto. And that includes Tsunade.

Of course the 5 kages aren't the toughest. Killer Bee, Naruto, Sasuke, Madara, Yahiko, Nagato, Pikachu, Konan, Tobi(masked man), Jiraya, Itachi. These are the big characters. The kages are tough as nails, but they are not as powerful as those people I listed there. For example, do you honestly think any kage could beat 8 tails, 9 tails, or any of the bad guys just 1v1? Of course not.

He made two references to Naruto, stating that no kage can beat him. He just forgot to say (except Naruto) when he mentioned the Konoha 11 (and that isn't necessary because if I got the point, you should've been able to get it too). Now then, could you please stop the bashing just to prove that you're right? Everyone makes mistakes, including you.

This back and forth battle really makes me think about if it's worth to debate with you guys. Try to be more open to yourselves instead of just trying to to be right in everything.

[The Tax-Man]

Then, if that's the case, I have no problem dismissing the fact that she's the 5th Hokage, because it seems that the "the 5 Kages are the strongest in the ninja world" proposition is false. And I have no reason to give Sakura's training from her any merit, especially regarding "strength."

They may not be the 'strongest', but they are certainly 'one of the strongest'. Tsunade is holding her own in against Madara (who, if you'll remember, is Madara and Hashirama combined - essentially the strongest since the Rikudo Senin). I don't know where you get the conclusion of disregarding Tsunade's strength from that inference. In fact, now it seems you're just trying to make half-assed attempts to ride your losing argument to the end.

On the topic, I have nothing to add. Yes, Hinata COULD be stonger than Sakura. But I severely doubt it. Why? Because she's not important and has had next to no panel time showing her abilities. And that's final. There is no way to prove Hinata has ANY skills. Sakura, however, has been in fights we've seen and we can at least put her above those we know NOTHING about. And I go back to Konohamaru beating the crap out of one of Nagato's paths. And Konohamaru is still a weak Genin. In fact, Hinata should have been way more desperate than him and should have at LEAST hit him once.

I find it ridiculous how any disagreement about Sakura's grandeur here is labeled as "bashing."

Good point. But I think they meant bashing each other.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 30 March 2012 - 01:21 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

He made two references to Naruto, stating that no kage can beat him. He just forgot to say (except Naruto) when he mentioned the Konoha 11 (and that isn't necessary because if I got the point, you should've been able to get it too). Now then, could you please stop the bashing just to prove that you're right? Everyone makes mistakes, including you.

This back and forth battle really makes me think about if it's worth to debate with you guys. Try to be more open to yourselves instead of just trying to to be right in everything.

I find it ridiculous how any disagreement about Sakura's grandeur here is labeled as "bashing."

In fact, now it seems you're just trying to make half-assed attempts to ride your losing argument to the end.

My "half-assed" argument is that "strength" is loosely defined here, if defined at all. My "half-assed" argument is that any fight can take an unexpected turn based on a small circumstance or advantage. My "half-assed" argument is that we have no business saying Hinata is the weakest of the 11 when she has been given few chances to prove otherwise.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 30 March 2012 - 01:25 AM.

[Shadow Wolf]

I find it ridiculous how any disagreement about Sakura's grandeur here is labeled as "bashing."

*Sighs* I haven't mentioned anything about Sakura. I meant bashing each other's opinions. Keep in mind that I usually read everyone's opinions (including yours) and I agree/disagree with all of them. I just don't talk about it because of this very situation.

Good point. But I think they meant bashing each other.

^ That.

Edited by Shadow Wolf, 30 March 2012 - 01:27 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

*Sighs* I haven't mentioned anything about Sakura. I meant bashing each other's opinions. Keep in mind that I usually read everyone's opinions (including yours) and I agree/disagree with all of them. I just don't talk about it because of this very situation.



^ That.

A wise policy.

[The Tax-Man]

I find it ridiculous how any disagreement about Sakura's grandeur here is labeled as "bashing."



My "half-assed" argument is that "strength" is loosely defined here, if defined at all. My "half-assed" argument is that any fight can take an unexpected turn based on a small circumstance or advantage. My "half-assed" argument is that we have no business saying Hinata is the weakest of the 11 when she has been given few chances to prove otherwise.

I never said she's the weakest. I'm just saying we don't know enough about her so there's no point in putting her above people we DO know about. That's all. Yes, circumstances may change a fight but fights are not solely defined by circumstance - especially not in this story. In any environment, from what we know, Sakura would be able to have the advantage because as far as we know, Hinata is as smart as she was 3 years ago (not very much). All in all, chillax.

[PachucoDesigns]

I never said she's the weakest. I'm just saying we don't know enough about her so there's no point in putting her above people we DO know about. That's all. Yes, circumstances may change a fight but fights are not solely defined by circumstance - especially not in this story. In any environment, from what we know, Sakura would be able to have the advantage because as far as we know, Hinata is as smart as she was 3 years ago (not very much). All in all, chillax.

Then, frankly, that puts the discussion to an end. We know very little about any of their abilities aside from the protagonists. So, by that same reason, we have no reason to place any of them in any ranking order.

[The Tax-Man]

Then, frankly, that puts the discussion to an end. We know very little about any of their abilities aside from the protagonists. So, by that same reason, we have no reason to place any of them in any ranking order.

Indeed. But we can still speculate who is stronger within that group (i.e. excluding the strongest and the protagonists). Nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, we have to accept that there will never be consensus for something like this.

It would seem that certain speculations are commonplace, while otherwise are altogether unwelcome.

Now, now. Let's forget the red-necks and not get discouraged.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 30 March 2012 - 01:58 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

Indeed. Bit we can still speculate who is stronger within that group (i.e. excluding the strongest and the protagonists). Nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, we have to accept that there will never be consensus for something like this.

It would seem that certain speculations are commonplace, while otherwise are altogether unwelcome.

Now, now. Let's forget the red-necks and not get discouraged.

No, let's not forget the red-necks. Because it would seem to me that they are the sole perpatrators of the deluge of character worship and projection that ruins discussions like these in the first place.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 30 March 2012 - 01:59 AM.

[The Tax-Man]

No, let's not forget the red-necks. Because it would seem to me that they are the sole perpatrators of the deluge of character worship and projection that ruins discussions like these in the first place.

Can't stop people from expressing opinions as long as they aren't harming anyone. It's a forum, after all. The best one can do is try to debate intelligently. And another thing, I'm not insulting anyone when I say this, but we really should forget the notion of H&E being a self-contained place. There will always be new opinions. But unfortunately some people don't handle that well.

[PachucoDesigns]

Can't stop people from expressing opinions as long as they aren't harming anyone. It's a forum, after all. The best one can do is try to debate intelligently. And another thing, I'm not insulting anyone when I say this, but we really should forget the notion of H&E being a self-contained place. There will always be new opinions. But unfortunately some people don't handle that well.

As I should have expected before I came here. Evidently, I didn't.

[FoolishYoungling]

As I should have expected before I came here. Evidently, I didn't.

I'll give you a tip. Everything you say better have a back up if it's an opinion. If not, your going to be targeted straight out. You never gave you back up to how Hinata could possibly beat Sakura in a fight, and that's why everyone was so quick to prove you wrong. Once you started saying the same thing over and over, people starting taking you for a Hinata fanboy, trying to bash us, because you wouldn't give any reasons. Overall, I'll just overlook this one, and leave you with this bit of advice.

[PachucoDesigns]

I'll give you a tip. Everything you say better have a back up if it's an opinion. If not, your going to be targeted straight out. You never gave you back up to how Hinata could possibly beat Sakura in a fight, and that's why everyone was so quick to prove you wrong. Once you started saying the same thing over and over, people starting taking you for a Hinata fanboy, trying to bash us, because you wouldn't give any reasons. Overall, I'll just overlook this one, and leave you with this bit of advice.

Allow me throw your tip right back at you. Any hypothesis must be observable, testable, and potentially falsifiable. Unless the match up actually happened, and unless we were able to see both fighters at their absolute best, everything is an opinion. No exceptions.

[FoolishYoungling]

Allow me throw your tip right back at you. Any hypothesis must be observable, testable, and potentially falsifiable. Unless the match up actually happened, and unless we were able to see both fighters at their absolute best, everything is an opinion. No exceptions.

Didn't we offer you manga coverage?

[PachucoDesigns]

Didn't we offer you manga coverage?

testable and potentially falsifiable. Has Sakura fought Hinata? No. Everything is opinion.

[Darth Krypt]

testable and potentially falsifiable. Has Sakura fought Hinata? No. Everything is opinion.

There you go again. Saying everything is falsifiable going all scientific method on us. This is not like in the real world where we can conduct test and surveys, evaluating the reliability and validity of the methods and analyzing the results. This is an analysis of a story, where we use what has happened in the manga to prove our points so I showed Sakura's potential by giving her manga moments. With that, we have a better gauge and estimate of her ability. You won't even give Hinata's side of the argument so, really, what is the point with having a discussion with you? You made claims, saying something is wrong without backing it up. So if you're not going to bother supporting your claims, I've already proven that debating with you is a waste of time. I'm out.

[PachucoDesigns]

There you go again. Saying everything is falsifiable going all scientific method on us. This is not like in the real world where we can conduct test and surveys, evaluating the reliability and validity of the methods and analyzing the results. This is an analysis of a story, where we use what has happened in the manga to prove our points so I showed Sakura's potential by giving her manga moments. With that, we have a better gauge and estimate of her ability. You won't even give Hinata's side of the argument so, really, what is the point with having a discussion with you? You made claims, saying something is wrong without backing it up. So if you're not going to bother supporting your claims, I've already proven that debating with you is a waste of time. I'm out.

Good, be out then. Because until the match has actually happened, a guess at the outcome is opinion. If you say she belongs near the bottom of the ladder, then you, too, have a burden of proof. And if you say that Sakura belongs near the top, then you need a basis of comparison to the others by which to make that claim. Opinion. Nothing more.

[Dragunov]

testable and potentially falsifiable. Has Sakura fought Hinata? No. Everything is opinion.

And so, due to lack of evidence, we cant argue where Hinata stands in terms of strength. She could be stronger than the rest, she could be weaker than the rest, who knows really. If you wanna prove that she's strong, provide contextual evidence that she is so.

[FoolishYoungling]

Good, be out then. Because until the match has actually happened, a guess at the outcome is opinion. If you say she belongs near the bottom of the ladder, then you, too, have a burden of proof. And if you say that Sakura belongs near the top, then you need a basis of comparison to the others by which to make that claim. Opinion. Nothing more.

We gave u proof. You just don't except anything but Sakura vs Hinata. It's like saying your not for sure that a jock could beat up a nerd, but the jock has beat up a lot of other cool guys.

And so, due to lack of evidence, we cant argue where Hinata stands in terms of strength. She could be stronger than the rest, she could be weaker than the rest, who knows really. If you wanna prove that she's strong, provide contextual evidence that she is so.

This or being a fanboy

Edited by FoolishYoungling , 30 March 2012 - 03:07 AM.