I'm responding to several posts in one.... Sorry it's long.
You argue that only those involved should be killed, but who is that? Some? All? Were they involving any of the kids? Sasuke obviously didn't know, but was it just Sasuke? I wonder if it Kishimoto's failure to deal with that is intentional or not. I think it certaintly complicates Itachi understanding or redemptive moment if he shown slaying children even younger than Sasuke. But then that raises the question of what, okay, you got all these kids who don't know anything what do you do with them? Off, the involved parents and leave them as orhpans or one-parent families and create an entire generation of Sasukes? Was or is Itachi right to even keep a secret from the village and Sasuke? Did Itachi know, to the person, who was involved? What does Sasuke do if he knows...could he still side with his own clan and end up hating the village and Itachi?
I think OmegaMan's comparison to the nuclear bomb on Japan, in that many people were killed to prevent many, many more people being killed, is a good one but misses and important distiction. I forget the actual estimates of the causulties of a mainland invasion, but it was astronomically high. There is one potential problem, once the decision to drop the bomb was made, collateral damage was inevitable. You can't instruct a bomb to kill only those involved. Itachi, however, could chose who to eliminate and who to spare. If fact, he did do that with his own family.
Exactly. Everyone loves Itachi because he did all this for "peace." But he murdered people, slit throats, killed children, his parents his lover, etc. etc., in the name of peace. The only person more gruesome in the story is young Zabuza. Itachi is not a bomb,
he is the murderer.
This contradictory act of inflicting the worst kind of harm in the name of peace is a very complex issue. Soldiers from all nations have a hard time recovering from acts of violence during wartime. Some never recover.
There are two pictures of Itachi that surface, both contradictory, but both accurate:
- First is peace-loving Itachi, who was a soldier of Konoha and did what he had to do for the greater good. He spared is brother in order for him to restart the clan with a clean slate. He funtioned as a double-agent for Konoha in Akatsuki and now is delivering moral guidance for the future Hokage.
- Second is the Itachi who willfully carried out Madara's agenda as it fit in with his own orders. Killed everyone in his clan, even those who would have been largely innocent such as children and infants, in the most brutal fashion. He spares his brother, but only after his Sasuke has walked in after Itachi has apparently just killed their parents. Then Itachi taunts/torments him, cruelly telling him to seek revenge to mentally reprogram the child as part of his long term plan. Itachi joins Akatsuki, and returns at some point to make sure the hatred is still fresh by throwing Sasuke into a wall then breaking his arm. Later they have a horrific fight, at which time Itachi dies, leaving Sasuke to believe he just barely missed Itachi stealing his eyes out of his head. Then he learns of Itachi's master plan from his co-conspirator with his own hidden agenda, Madara. After this, Sasuke fully embraces the dark revenge that Itachi laid out for him in childhood. Sasuke accepts the surface level goal of Itachi's master plan, hatred and revenge, but not the one that Itachi was gambling that Sasuke would take (clan redmeption).
So, both versions of Itachi are true. And they are wildly different.
It's frustrating on two points: 1. Itachi is a peacemaker in words only; his deeds show he is a murderer and destroyer. So distilled down to his basic function in the story, with no mention of motives, he is a walking contradiction. 2. Naruto should not be blindly accepting his advice.
My problem with this chapter is that Itachi has not used good judgement in implenting these master plans. So why in the hell should Naruto so blindly listen to him now? "I killed my clan with my bare hands, for two opposing groups; I mentally destroyed my younger brother and kept coming back to make sure the damage too; I pretended to kill him so he could kill me, and I nearly did. But I did it all for a good cause, for a master plan of my own making. So now let me tell you what I know about being the leader of a village...."
This is the man who followed Madara's instructions, now chiding Naruto about not turning into Madara? And Naruto says 'oh, ok, yeah, sure thing.'
But by Itachi saying he failed, he robbed Naruto or anyone else of holding him accountable to the collosal failure of his master plan. Itachi has hand-crafted a worse enemy than he could have imagined for Konoha. But Naruto doesn't even go there, and Kishimoto doesn't want the audience going there either. Itachi has been redeemed, he is now a good character with good intentions, please ignore the complex situations that got us here.
These are not the droids you're looking for. Please move along.
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My larger point is that there is a lot unanswered one and that I have a concern about the fact no one seems to challenge what Itachi chose to do. Sasuke just opposes it, but doesn't spend a lot of time questioning it. I think things like this have occured across Part 2. My least favorite chapter of the War Arc so far in the confrontation with the Raikage and Tsunade because Kishimoto set up such a straw man by the Raikage. The second he said that they were weapons and that basically their existence as human beings were irrelevent he became instantly discredited and Tsunade virtually had no choice, but to side with Naruto is she wanted to maintain any credibility herself. To me, it was such a weak challenge because it was cast it in such a way as to make the decision obvious. I don't have issues with the ultimately resolution (them letting the two fight and them being percieved as ultimately right), but I wish the Raikage put a better fight than that (and I don't mean a physical fight). To me, it didn't provide any deep thought on the issue or represent a serious challegne to what Bee and Naruto wanted to do.
You're exactly right. It was another opportunity missed. I would love to see Naruto moving from a simple black-and-white view of his childhood to the much harder choices of adulthood. The Raikage says these are the hard choices that leaders must make, as if there is some sort of grey area there, but in the end he makes the treatment of the jinchurrikis a black-and-white issue.
Kishimoto introduces complex issues and situations, but he resolves them in very simplistic ways, sidestepping anything that could snag development. Instead of embracing these grey areas, and using them to help develop the characters, he just skips over them.
The Pain Arc is a perfect example. Reset button!
It would be wonderful if in this chapter Naruto recognized that Itachi's deeds didn't fit his intent, and that Naruto decided he'd find peace another way, not through killing, thus becoming one of the overall lessons learned from Itachi on what kind leader Naruto hoped to be.
But it didn't happen. Itachi just gives Naruto advice. Naruto accepts it. (You know, I'm sort of sick of people telling Naruto what to do, too, and him not having to work for it.)
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And one other note about the chapter, I hope the "don't do it alone speech" is a foreshadow that he literally won't do it alone and less of him fighting alone and saying it's the support of the people that inspire him (i.e. I hope Sakura does more than cheerlead or serve as a source of inspiration, I hope fights Sasuke with him). I despise the Naruto/Kakuzu fight for a lot of reasons, but one of them is the fact that he profess he has to do it himself and everyone lets him after spending so much time in Part 1 about the importance of "team."
Yeah, I'm sort of dreading that this is what we're leading up to. With Naruto saying we'll do it together, then he does it alone.
I don't see where you get the idea Itachi was the one who thought the entire clan was bad, he was ordered to do so, he didn't suddenly decide to assasinate his entire clan because of his own personal feelings, his personal feelings were the ones that stopped him from killing his brother, he didn't want to do it, even Sasuke revealed later than Itachi was crying when he left after what he had to do.
So Itachi had orders from Konoha to kill the clan. Madara is opposed to Konoha, and jumps on board to help Itachi kill the clan for his own hidden agenda. Because Itachi allowed an outside faction, one that is an immortal once-uberpowerful clan member who violently opposed Konoha to participate, Itachi muddied his goal of singularly bringing peace to Konoha. What if Madara asked Itachi first, he came asking for help, and then Konoha gave him his mission? That completely changes the slant on Itachi as the innocent soldier. I'm not saying that Itachi thought the entire clan was bad from the start. But at some point this mission from Konoha to stomp out the coup morphed with his personal goal of redeeming his clan. What we don't know is when. Was this idea introduced by Madara, and did he introduce it before Itachi's orders or after? Was Itachi attempting to do it on his own before the Konoha mission? Or did Madara seduce him with the idea as a way to get Itachi to kill everyone? We just don't know. But Itachi can't be working for two opposing forces and come out squeaky clean as the heroic soldier doing the heartbreaking deed for the greater good. He had his own agenda as well.
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He was a tool of the village, and ultimately the safety of the village comes above everything else, with your resoning Minato could also be classed as a villain, Afterall he sealed the Kyuubi inside his son so he could one day use it to protect the village, He knew how his son would be treated after being make a Jinchuriki, but even though he was given another option he sealed in his son, not only in the hope his son would able to conquer the power and defeat Madara but also to keep the balance of power between the villages.
One of the big themes is these heroes and villains doing everything for their idea of the greater good. Each one fits into that role. Pein, Danzo, Itachi, Minato. And they are all on this sliding scale of good-to-villainy with the exception of Minato. He certainly wasn't a villain, however he took massive gambles with Naruto's life in the hopes that he would be able to use his power, exactly like Itachi with Sasuke. My point is, how much should one person hold sway over another's life? Naruto and Sasuke had their lives forfeited for a greater good. These people who cared so much for them set them on this path. I was glad Naruto punched him in the gut and said "why'd you do this to me." Minato kinda deserved it. No one asked him if he wanted the kyuubi and all the pain that went with it, just like no one asked Sasuke if this is how he'd like to redeem his clan, by being the only one left alive.
Each one of these characters has forced others to follow their plan for some greater good. Naruto has been set up as the one with the "greatest good." So it will be interesting to see how he plans to trump the rest. It seems to be that using others as a tool delivers some bad karma. So maybe that will be the cycle that he breaks, using the shinobi as a weapon like the jins.
Anyway, Minato is another complex character with his words, "I love you more than anything," being used to justify his actions, "so I'm going to inflict the greatest harm you'll have to overcome." I don't think he's a villain, but he is the counterpart to Itachi, for sure.
Edited by tricksie, 29 August 2011 - 03:51 PM.
thanx XDD sorry for the random comment ppl plz continue :o
its obvious but thats not a bad thing. i mean his hand his on fire....what other guy has flaming hands and resengan at the SAME TIME!
debating whether or not it's Naruto that appears at the end of the chapter now I could be wrong but is that hand wrapped in a golden chakra? lets see that before we decide, okay? 
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