123 replies to this topic

[Gaara's hair]

I wouldn't standby i'd get in involved if I was powerful enough to stop the war or save my friends. Besides like Shadow Uzumaki mentioned Naruto doesn't know about them wanting to stop relying on him.

[merryGOflava]

ya'know, i think naruto has good intentions and anyone else would have done this to help their friends. hes doing the right thing in his heart. if you have enough power to help do it. but....I also think this is gonna backfire on him, somethings gonna happen, and it would be because he didnt either train long enough, or wait.

but who knows naruto is good at getting outta hopeless situations.

[Chivalrysae]

I wouldn't say he is ignoring their feelings. He is going against their wishes, but not their feelings. As much as they want to protect him, he wants to protect them. That's just like saying they are ignoring his feelings. His bonds are his most treasured posession. I'm sure his friends know that they cannot keep him at bay forever, but they want to be able to keep protected for as long as possible. I know that when they think he is ready, they would more than happily fight along-side him. Right now there are just too many unknowns and there is too much risk on the stanpoint of the alliance. I'm sure they don't even know if keeping them in hiding is the right thing to do, but they had to do something.

You can accept someone's feeling, and still go against what they believed in. Kind of like how Naruto understands and sympathizes with Pein, even though he does not agree with his actions. He did not ignore Pein's feelings or hatred, but he did not go along with him either. So even though Naruto decides to take his own path, it does not mean the voices of his friends have fallen on deaf ears. One thing is for sure, if he cannot protect his friends and the bonds he has created, we would not be fit to be Hokage in his own eyes.

[ciardha]

I wouldn't say he is ignoring their feelings. He is going against their wishes, but not their feelings. As much as they want to protect him, he wants to protect them. That's just like saying they are ignoring his feelings. His bonds are his most treasured posession. I'm sure his friends know that they cannot keep him at bay forever, but they want to be able to keep protected for as long as possible. I know that when they think he is ready, they would more than happily fight along-side him. Right now there are just too many unknowns and there is too much risk on the stanpoint of the alliance. I'm sure they don't even know if keeping them in hiding is the right thing to do, but they had to do something.

That pretty much sums up Tsunade's opinion as well. Although she initially was all for Naruto fighting alongside everyone from the start because she knew him well, but she let Gaara, the Mizukage, and the Raikage convince her that it was in Naruto's best interests to hide him away from the fighting. In her heart though, she rather likely feels similar to how Iruka does now.

[The Tax-Man]

The real issue here is that Naruto is, frankly, absurdly simple-minded. Friends. Danger. HULK SMASH. That's essentially his thought process. It isn't that Naruto is egotistical. It's that his thought process never reaches the level of complexity required to actually consider how his friends would feel about him entering the war when they're trying to protect him. It's unbelievably exasperating... I'd hoped Naruto would learn to be patient and use a little forethought as the story moved along but so much for that. Not trying to bash Naruto but I'm seriously tired of all this cookie cutter bull****.

Contrarily, he does think. Mostly it's your scenario but he does think at essential times. It's just that he hasn't gotten time to think about it yet. That chapter was basically 5 minutes in the manga. So he didn't get any time to think and yeah...HULK!!! Even if he does enter, they might not be mad or anything, as he'll most likely realize that in three days (our time) and stop. Then he probably fights some fodder for a page or two, and on to Sasuke or Kabuto. He knows they can accomplish that. And I expect him to understand and hold back. Then it'll probably be a Pain scenario.

[al0eaz]

I was under the impression that it was just Naruto's personality to act the way he does. He cant stand the fact that someone would give their life for him. He knows that he is the only one who can bring piece and can't stand to watch those he cares about get hurt or die because of him. Its not that he's on some ego-trip or "I wanna be the hero" things, but its in his beliefs and personality to not let others die for him. He can't stand to loose any more then he already has.

[Codus N]

The real issue here is that Naruto is, frankly, absurdly simple-minded. Friends. Danger. HULK SMASH. That's essentially his thought process. It isn't that Naruto is egotistical. It's that his thought process never reaches the level of complexity required to actually consider how his friends would feel about him entering the war when they're trying to protect him. It's unbelievably exasperating... I'd hoped Naruto would learn to be patient and use a little forethought as the story moved along but so much for that. Not trying to bash Naruto but I'm seriously tired of all this cookie cutter bull****.

Thank you. That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Had he shown a bit more maturity to everybody else, this whole thing could've gone a lot better. If anything, he'll be angry at first but then understand what he should do.

Hang on, does Naruto even know that his friends want to stop relying on him? That seems like the elephant in the room at this point in the discussion. Sure, his friends don't want to keep on relying on Naruto, and there is logic in Naruto rushing ahead to the fight without consideration of his friends' feelings, but is he even sure of what his friends' feelings are? We all know Naruto's matured quite a bit, but he's still dense. He's a shonen hero, they're usually not geniuses except in the middle of a fight. Especially in light of his decision towards Sasuke (killing him to end the cycle of hatred), seeing the destruction that Nagato caused that led to the deaths of millions of people, a desire to fulfill his master's, father's and fellow chosen one's desire to end war and suffering all culminates in Naruto rushing out to try and prevent the deaths of his friends. Naruto is not one to sit around while his friends fights even through his friends' protests, he's a man of action, he knows he may have the power to end this war and damn it, he's gonna do it!

Answer this question, would YOU (to no one specific), if you're as strong as Naruto, stand idly by while your friends fight a war dedicated to protecting you?

Yes, that's true. But the problem here is is that he's not thinking of the consequences. He's strong all right. If I was strong I'd probably do the same thing. But I would also have to think of the consequences. Here, he's not doing so. At the very least, I would've liked him to be angry at first but then understand that this time, he needs to butt out for the moment. This would keep him in character while showing some maturity at the same time. When the time is right, he'll rush out and rampage all he wants.

Naruto may not know about his friends not wanting to rely on him this time, but the fact that he still went out makes it look that he doesn't trust them at all. I predict Shikamaru having a scuffle with Naruto about this.

I was under the impression that it was just Naruto's personality to act the way he does. He cant stand the fact that someone would give their life for him. He knows that he is the only one who can bring piece and can't stand to watch those he cares about get hurt or die because of him. Its not that he's on some ego-trip or "I wanna be the hero" things, but its in his beliefs and personality to not let others die for him. He can't stand to loose any more then he already has.

No, I wasn't saying he's trying to play hero. But in the eyes of other people later in the battlefield, he would look like he's trying to play hero. His ego trip is true, though. He's strong. But like he said, he wants to end the war as soon as he can. Frankly that, to me, looks like he deems his friends as incompetent.

@chivalrysae: Yes, he's going against their wishes, but don't you think his friends' feelings would be hurt?? it would look like Naruto doesn't trust them at all. They've placed their trust in him for years, but here it makes him look like he doesn't trust his friends.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced Bee let him out on purpose. In the last war, Bee was right around Naruto's age. I have a feeling it's likely that Bee went through the same thing. After years of suffering being a Jinchuuriki (even though his brother helped ease the loneliness), he finally got the bonds he wanted like Naruto did. But when the war broke out, he stormed off to the battlefield and actually made things worse. For that, he lost the trust of his friends. It took him years to rebuild them. Bee is letting him out on purpose so that he can learn his lesson the hard way. Bee seems like a knucklehead on the outside, but inside, he's actually a very insightful person with years of experience. Sure, the word "strategy" might not be in his vocabulary, but at the very least, he has the forethought necessary in important situations such as this. There's also the likely chance he was going to tell Naruto about the war after his training was completed. I mean, he did it completely with pure intents for Naruto. He didn't do it because of orders, it's because he wanted to. He also knew that if they were deployed, Naruto would have to be as strong as possible before jumping into the fray.

[Greed-Sama]

No, I wasn't saying he's trying to play hero. But in the eyes of other people later in the battlefield, he would look like he's trying to play hero. His ego trip is true, though. He's strong. But like he said, he wants to end the war as soon as he can. Frankly that, to me, looks like he deems his friends as incompetent.

Does it matter? I'm sure he didn't think his friends were incompetent against Pain, but that still doesn't mean that some things are way out of their league. Naruto is (not because he is the protagonist) the only one that would be able to even consider being able to take on Madara. If Shikamaru, Tsunade, or Kakashi were to try they wouldn't last seconds. I mean Konan lived through war her entire life, and she only managed to dent the man's clothing. So what else do you expect Naruto to do?

[Codus N]

What I'm trying to say is that they would think Naruto thinks they're incompetent. You have to try and see it from the Konoha 11's view.

[Greed-Sama]

What I'm trying to say is that they would think Naruto thinks they're incompetent. You have to try and see it from the Konoha 11's view.

I really don't think they would ever think that. Naruto holds his friends in nothing but the highest esteem.

[Codus N]

True. But like they resolved they wanted to stop relying on him. That's the point. What's the use of having that resolve if Naruto just goes ahead and ruin it??? If I were them, I'd be pretty disappointed in him.

[The Tax-Man]

True. But like they resolved they wanted to stop relying on him. That's the point. What's the use of having that resolve if Naruto just goes ahead and ruin it??? If I were them, I'd be pretty disappointed in him.

Ruin what, again?! They did stop relying on him. We did see them take down major people. Now we can really stop seeing them fight pointless fights for the sake of development and them holding their own. Kishimoto did show that they can do it. He wouldn't draw that for no reason. I understand you, bro, but there is nothing to be disappointed about. That is, if they get in major trouble before Naruto comes. If they don't, well yeah I follow your train of thought. Naruto would need that to show him and all the stuff you said. I'm too lazy to repeat. Otherwise, in what is the most likely scenario, they get in trouble and then Naruto comes. He is way stronger. If he arrives then, and they think that he's selfish, they would be the biggest idiots I've ever seen. Arrogant too. Which they aren't and therefore there would be no problem.

But if Naruto does arrive right now, you are as correct as anyone other than the author could get.

Another point. You said that he deems them incompetent. He does not. He in no way underestimates them. Even if they think that, they're wrong. Boo hoo. You can put it the other way too. They would then need to see that they are indeed not strong enough to fight anyone at the top of the Akatsuki and just deal with it. Harsh words, but true nonetheless. They did what they could. Naruto would let them do what they can anyway and then fight the strong ones.

[Codus N]

Ruin what, again?! They did stop relying on him. We did see them take down major people. Now we can really stop seeing them fight pointless fights for the sake of development and them holding their own. Kishimoto did show that they can do it. He wouldn't draw that for no reason. I understand you, bro, but there is nothing to be disappointed about. That is, if they get in major trouble before Naruto comes. If they don't, well yeah I follow your train of thought. Naruto would need that to show him and all the stuff you said. I'm too lazy to repeat. Otherwise, in what is the most likely scenario, they get in trouble and then Naruto comes. He is way stronger. If he arrives then, and they think that he's selfish, they would be the biggest idiots I've ever seen. Arrogant too. Which they aren't and therefore there would be no problem.

But if Naruto does arrive right now, you are as correct as anyone other than the author could get.

Another point. You said that he deems them incompetent. He does not. He in no way underestimates them. Even if they think that, they're wrong. Boo hoo. You can put it the other way too. They would then need to see that they are indeed not strong enough to fight anyone at the top of the Akatsuki and just deal with it. Harsh words, but true nonetheless. They did what they could. Naruto would let them do what they can anyway and then fight the strong ones.

Ruining their resolve. That's what he's doing. And you just pointed out exactly why it's too early for Naruto to enter the fray. They're doing fine on their own right now. They don't need Naruto's help as of now. That's my biggest beef about this whole chapter. Naruto doesn't understand that if the time is right, they will call him. But him rushing out there right now is a bad move on his part. Right now, the "leader" of the Konoha 11 out there is Shikamaru. A genius like him would know when it's time to call it quits and call Naruto. If Madara/Kabuto drops the big guns on one of the divisions (Pain/Itachi) Shikamaru would obviously ask for Naruto's help. Someone like him would know no one in the alliance would stand a chance against them except for Naruto. What Naruto is lacking here is his trust on his friends' judgments.

And regarding the incompetent part, you're missing my point. I didn't say Naruto thinks they're incompetent. But the Konoha 11 would think Naruto deems them as incompetent. He didn't mean it that way, but the problem is the perception of the Konoha 11 and what they think.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

I don't think that Naruto joining the fray would make the others think he thinks they're competent. They know what kind of person Naruto is, it's possible that all they are going to say is that they aren't surprised that Naruto managed to enter the war despite their attempts to hide him from the war. In fact, more than likely, he arrives when the battle starts going badly for the Alliance Shinobi. I don't really understand why his friends will think that he thinks they are incompetent, the rest of the 11 just wants to fight their own battles for a change instead of relying on Naruto every time.

[merryGOflava]

naruto is battling for his friends and village, im sure he can care less if they didnt want him there. hes naruto and hes going to help whether they like it or not.

[Chivalrysae]

@chivalrysae: Yes, he's going against their wishes, but don't you think his friends' feelings would be hurt?? it would look like Naruto doesn't trust them at all. They've placed their trust in him for years, but here it makes him look like he doesn't trust his friends.

When Naruto shows up, I would expect them to be disappointed that Naruto is no in harm's way, but I really would not expect their feelings to be hurt. Naruto knows just as much, if not more than them that Madaara is after the Kyuubi. He's been their target for a long time now. He also knows what's at stake and the importance of this war.

They all knew that lying to him and keeping him hidden wouldn't work forever. Shikamaru should know that more than anyone else (as a strategist and friend). I would expect him to respond with a "how troublesome, just make sure you stay with the alliance."

As far as the trust issue. I don't think any of this has to do with trust. Just because they don't want Naruto to fight doesn't mean they don't trust him. And just because he wants to protect his friends from the life Nagato endured, does not mean he does not trust his friends. I think it's more of his friends wanting to make sure he's protected since they know so little about their enemy and their motives. Keeping them hidden in secret is the safe choice at the moment.

They may feel that they rely on him too much, but Gaara knows that Naturo relies on his friends too. If it weren't for his friends and his village, he very easily could have ended up on the path Gaara once went down. He relies on them to find his way, and they are the ones that give him his strength and will to fight. That's a part of his character. That's who he is and why they have grown to cherish him.

[The Tax-Man]

Ruining their resolve. That's what he's doing. And you just pointed out exactly why it's too early for Naruto to enter the fray. They're doing fine on their own right now. They don't need Naruto's help as of now. That's my biggest beef about this whole chapter. Naruto doesn't understand that if the time is right, they will call him. But him rushing out there right now is a bad move on his part. Right now, the "leader" of the Konoha 11 out there is Shikamaru. A genius like him would know when it's time to call it quits and call Naruto. If Madara/Kabuto drops the big guns on one of the divisions (Pain/Itachi) Shikamaru would obviously ask for Naruto's help. Someone like him would know no one in the alliance would stand a chance against them except for Naruto. What Naruto is lacking here is his trust on his friends' judgments.

And regarding the incompetent part, you're missing my point. I didn't say Naruto thinks they're incompetent. But the Konoha 11 would think Naruto deems them as incompetent. He didn't mean it that way, but the problem is the perception of the Konoha 11 and what they think.

I agree with you that he's too early. And again, It doesn't matter what they think. Yes, Naruto should have stayed behind as of now but he didn't get any time to think about it. If he did, I'm sure he'd stay back. Another reason for him going is that he knows absolutely nothing about the war and is assuming the worst. And if I recall correctly, they never told Naruto about the resolve. Naruto walked away.

The perception part. Well, you're right. But then again, as I said, Naruto doesn't know if they're in trouble or not. You can't expect him to do anything else. He is absolutely ignorant of the details of the war. They'd never think he thinks they're incompetent. After all, he has absolutely no idea what's happening. How can he trust someone's judgment when he has no idea what it is?

naruto is battling for his friends and village, im sure he can care less if they didnt want him there. hes naruto and hes going to help whether they like it or not.

Exactly. And believe me. By the time he gets there, they will like it.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 19 April 2011 - 10:17 PM.

[al0eaz]

I for one am ready to finally see Naruto do something! Sure it was cool seeing him take control of the Nine Tails. Sure it was cool seeing him have "that yellow flash" sure it was cool seeing him grow a little bit, but I think its time we get a NaruSaku moment and watch naruto kick some balls.

[Chivalrysae]

I for one am ready to finally see Naruto do something! Sure it was cool seeing him take control of the Nine Tails. Sure it was cool seeing him have "that yellow flash" sure it was cool seeing him grow a little bit, but I think its time we get a NaruSaku moment and watch naruto kick some balls.

I agree. There's only so much you can learn. Nothing beats some on-the-job training.

[Sennin-Naruto]

I really don't think they would ever think that. Naruto holds his friends in nothing but the highest esteem.

im preety sure naruto will be stop in the next chapter ether by bee or the 5th hokage herself or even the raikage ether way hell be stopped too finish his training. and the war will continue things will start turning bad for the alliance and then they will be needing naruto's and bee help. then willingful thell let naruto and bee enter the war too start turning things over too thier favor thats my prediction