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The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread


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#11941 narulsaku

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:49 PM

I'm still not one hundred percent convinced that it is genjutsu, but it kind of makes sense considering that Kurama was locked away in Naruto's subconscious and there is no physical way Sasuke could enter Naruto. But I went along with the theory for the sake of debate.

hum physically its not possible . And sharingan is also based on genjutsu all right i agree. But in genjutsu. U r doomed ur mind stays completely under user. But in this case naruto was well aware of sasukes presence in him. And besides kurana him self said that he didnt knew that sasuke can see inside naruto." See" not controll or jutsu.



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#11942 sushi.

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:51 PM

@ NaruSaku4Life3G

I don't know if Kishimoto necessarily favors tsundere relationships, after all his first canon pairing, Asuma and Kurenai did not follow that trope and what we've seen of Sasuke's parents does not suggest any tsundere 'dominance' on Mikoto's part, and besides that, Rin is definitely not a tsundere, nor was Konan, and neither is the heroine from Mario. I think the only tsundere relationships Naruto actually features are NaruSaku and MinaKushi, unless I'm missing one. Well, I guess there's Sasuke and Karin, however no offense to the people who like that pairing, but it kind of leaves a bad taste in mouth to think about, thanks to recent developments.

JiraTsu ahem? :P

 

Kishi has a tendency to make tsundere relationship, but I think that is mostly to bring a parallel. Many of them started with a tsundere formula.

"Didn't like him at first - refused to admit/realize - did so in the end".

 

AsuxKure or FugaxMikoto doesn't parallel NS anyway. But I like that Rin and Konan are not tsunderes because of the diversity, they paralell NS in other ways. After all, Sakura's tsundereness is not the only aspect of her relationship with Naruto.


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#11943 咲耶姫

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:56 PM

http://blackiechan35...fset=0#comments

 

Old stuff, but lol.

 

- I take a bad translation because it supports my point of view for NH=canon

- I want to see chapter 631 as a joke because it's a big problem in my point of view for NH=canon

- I deny similarities between Sakura and Kushina because I support the Hinata/Kushina parallels (that doesn't even exist)

 

That's how I resume his post.

 

Chapter 631 doesn't make NS canon, he's right about that, but it kills NH.

I saw a lot of NH fans accept that fact, like sawyer7mage for exemple.

 

But this dude... da hell.

 

For SasuKarin, I think there is a reason why Kishi is waiting the end of his story to reveal us what Karin did to Sasuke in the past.

In my point of view, that moment will be important in the futur SasuKarin developpement. If that moment wasn't important, Kishi would have reveal it to us a long time a go (Danzou arc was perfect for that). But he didn't.

 

That isn't a simple coincidence if you want my opinion.

I stopped reading at "From what I've heard, the word girlfriend and girl-friend are the same in japanese"

This is something that is really pissing me off. no matter how many times you tell them kanojo anly means girlfriend, they keep telling it means a friend who's a girl. 

I'm sure it's just a deliberated denial, because you can easily search on the net and find out it has no other meaning than "she" and "girlfriend/sweetheart".  

I don't even know why it makes me so upset, after all, they can think what they want, no? I should care less, but this is an injure toward Kishimoto's manga to constantly deny his work and spread the world falses informations about it. I wonder if some of you feel the same about NH denial (not only chapter 631). 


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#11944 BakeNeko-Chan

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:20 PM

@ Sushi

 Good point, I agree. And I can't believe I forgot about Jiraiya/Tsunade! :argh: 



#11945 Sojobo

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:21 PM

I stopped reading at "From what I've heard, the word girlfriend and girl-friend are the same in japanese"

This is something that is really pissing me off. no matter how many times you tell them kanojo anly means girlfriend, they keep telling it means a friend who's a girl.

It doesn't even make sense. Why would Sakura punch him if he didn't mean to be her boyfriend?

 

I don't even know why it makes me so upset, after all, they can think what they want, no? I should care less, but this is an injure toward Kishimoto's manga to constantly deny his work and spread the world falses informations about it. I wonder if some of you feel the same about NH denial (not only chapter 631).

It makes me laugh when I read them denying evidence.

And yeah, not only about chapter 631, there is also some people who says that Naruto never loved Sakura in the manga.

But yeah, let them say what they want. :th_yeah:


Edited by Sojobo, 09 December 2013 - 06:22 PM.


#11946 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:27 PM

@ NaruSaku4Life3G

I don't know if Kishimoto necessarily favors tsundere relationships, after all his first canon pairing, Asuma and Kurenai did not follow that trope and what we've seen of Sasuke's parents does not suggest any tsundere 'dominance' on Mikoto's part, and besides that, Rin is definitely not a tsundere, nor was Konan, and neither is the heroine from Mario. I think the only tsundere relationships Naruto actually features are NaruSaku and MinaKushi, unless I'm missing one. Well, I guess there's Sasuke and Karin, however no offense to the people who like that pairing, but it kind of leaves a bad taste in mouth to think about, thanks to recent developments.

Good point, though I do feel like the next gen people are getting that relationships as in K9. While I can only see NS as one, it's possible for others to occur. Put it this way, the next gen relationships would have mostly the woman being the dominate one in the daily life. But who knows. Maybe anime interpretation of their take on relationships rubbed me hard enough to misguide myself for a moment. I mean in SD, they even made Konan tsundere for a moment. Go figure.



#11947 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:31 PM

@ NaruSaku4Life3G

I don't know if Kishimoto necessarily favors tsundere relationships, after all his first canon pairing, Asuma and Kurenai did not follow that trope and what we've seen of Sasuke's parents does not suggest any tsundere 'dominance' on Mikoto's part, and besides that, Rin is definitely not a tsundere, nor was Konan, and neither is the heroine from Mario. I think the only tsundere relationships Naruto actually features are NaruSaku and MinaKushi, unless I'm missing one. Well, I guess there's Sasuke and Karin, however no offense to the people who like that pairing, but it kind of leaves a bad taste in mouth to think about, thanks to recent developments.

If we take out naruto and Sakura funny moments, Sakura wont be a tsundere either, we dont know how Rin acted on funny moments to judge if she was a tsundere or not, Kushina wanst a tsundere when she was first shown.


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#11948 sushi.

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:33 PM

It doesn't even make sense. Why would Sakura punch him if he didn't mean to be her boyfriend?

 

It makes me laugh when I read them denying evidence.

And yeah, not only about chapter 631, there is also some people who says that Naruto never loved Sakura in the manga.

But yeah, let them say what they want. :th_yeah:

I don't get the parallel argument. :arg: So Minato compared a pretty simple trait from Kushina to Sakura. You can't expect more from a first impression, you know. He's not a fortune-teller, he can not tell that they have a similar backstory or anything.

 

This confirmation about their common hotheadness does not break their other similarities. If you google it you will find loads of LAPs about how similar they are. So Minato doesn't know Hinata or Sasuke, we can throw it back ~ he doesn't know Sakura either. Kishi did the best he could with what little knowledge Minato had about her, I don't know why people don't get that. :shrug:


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#11949 MangaReader

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:36 PM

I stopped reading at "From what I've heard, the word girlfriend and girl-friend are the same in japanese"

This is something that is really pissing me off. no matter how many times you tell them kanojo anly means girlfriend, they keep telling it means a friend who's a girl. 

I'm sure it's just a deliberated denial, because you can easily search on the net and find out it has no other meaning than "she" and "girlfriend/sweetheart".  

I don't even know why it makes me so upset, after all, they can think what they want, no? I should care less, but this is an injure toward Kishimoto's manga to constantly deny his work and spread the world falses informations about it. I wonder if some of you feel the same about NH denial (not only chapter 631). 

It's one thing for them to sit there and argue controversial moments (any normal Naruto and Sakura conversations), it's another to flat out deny the meaning of words. I suppose it's just from experience, but NS vs NH debates normally end in the opposition (NH) reverting to mudslinging and walking around the subject at hand instead of outright trying to prove anything otherwise. I mean I can't blame them for what they like, but to just ignore something and expect the opponent (NS) to just accept whatever panel involves Naruto and Hinata is just flat out hypocrisy. "If you don't want to accept what I'm saying, then I sure as hell don't have to accept what your saying". A lot of times it's just talking in circles mainly bringing up moments where most Sakura haters hate Sakura the most (ex. Any sort of slap stick moment and the biggest being her confession). 

 

If they want to live in a fantasy land, then let 'em, it's not like it's hurting anyone...I would hope. When the manga ends with Sakura in Naruto's arms, then they'll just look stupid. If the opposite comes true, well then, we'll just have to accept both the ignorant criticisms of these "fans" and the fact that we wasted a good portion of our time trying to see if Naruto would accomplish his dreams. 


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#11950 BakeNeko-Chan

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:40 PM

@ Darkrerst

The way I see it, there's no way Rin can be judged as tsundere based on that particular lack of evidence. What has been show of her does not suggest that she was a tsundere, period.



#11951 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:43 PM

@ Darkrerst

The way I see it, there's no way Rin can be judged as tsundere based on that particular lack of evidence. What has been show of her does not suggest that she was a tsundere, period.

Won't it be funny if she gets revived and punch the crap a dying Obito with Zetsu just to prove a point that he done all this, but then all sad since well you know. That will catch me off-guard, similar to Kushina reacting to Naruto and Hashirama's first words after being edo.



#11952 Luna

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 07:55 PM

So what's New? What are we talking about? To lazy to read through everything.



 


#11953 Shadow1275

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 08:01 PM

@ Darkrerst

The way I see it, there's no way Rin can be judged as tsundere based on that particular lack of evidence. What has been show of her does not suggest that she was a tsundere, period.

Yeah, seems that way. She was kind of like how Sakura was after the Land of Waves arc. Less of a Tsundere and more interested in keeping the peace between Naruto and Sasuke.


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#11954 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 08:10 PM

Won't it be funny if she gets revived and punch the crap a dying Obito with Zetsu just to prove a point that he done all this, but then all sad since well you know. That will catch me off-guard, similar to Kushina reacting to Naruto and Hashirama's first words after being edo.

That's the way i see it, Not even Kushina was a Tsundere unless suddenly she punched Naruto.

And she was tagged as a Tsundere just because of that punch because on the flashbacks and even on her story aswell there's no Tsundere attitudes.


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#11955 Psychox

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 08:15 PM

It wasn't an important scene.

 

Just reaffirmation where Naruto's heart belongs, maybe Kishi thought "in case someone is wondering".

 

If by someone you mean 2/3 of the fandom ? Then yes :D.
 

 

I stopped reading at "From what I've heard, the word girlfriend and girl-friend are the same in japanese"

This is something that is really pissing me off. no matter how many times you tell them kanojo anly means girlfriend, they keep telling it means a friend who's a girl. 

I'm sure it's just a deliberated denial, because you can easily search on the net and find out it has no other meaning than "she" and "girlfriend/sweetheart".  

I don't even know why it makes me so upset, after all, they can think what they want, no? I should care less, but this is an injure toward Kishimoto's manga to constantly deny his work and spread the world falses informations about it. I wonder if some of you feel the same about NH denial (not only chapter 631). 

 


It matters little how its translated , the context is clear - Naruto wouldn't get a thwack on the head by calling Sakura his girl-friend , its illogical and disingenuous to deny this.


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#11956 LadyGT

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 08:43 PM

Side note: Pierrot just spoilered Tobi's true identity in a poster ( and the anime is not even there yet)
 
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#11957 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 08:49 PM

Side note: Pierrot just spoilered Tobi's true identity in a poster ( and the anime is not even there yet)

What poster?

#11958 Jake

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:20 PM

K but the problem is that you're assuming that Sasuke can only attack one person at a time. What prevents him from attacking more than one? For example Kabuto used the Feather Illusion jutsu to immobilize an entire arena filled with people. While that is a less powerful technique, Sharingan based genjutsu is much more powerful.

 

Execpt Sasuke's only genjutsu is the basic Sharingan Genjutsu, meaning eye contact is a requirement. Also there is the question of if a genjutsu like the one Kabuto used is even strong enough to control Kurama, remeber even Kurenai a genjutsu specialist had trouble dealing with Itachi's genjutsu.

 

The other thing to consider is that while Naruto and Kurama were not on speaking terms when Sasuke first dispelled Kurama's power, there are two important things to take into account. One, Naruto was in a clear position to at least prevent Sasuke from neutralizing Kurama. The second was that at the time, Kurama had several moments to dispell said genjutsu and admitted to being powerless to stop Sasuke. Now the obvious answer to this would be for Naruto to attack Sasuke, but as we know Naruto is terrible at dispelling genjutsu meaning that Sasuke could easily paralyze him inside of his own mind.

 

Though I have to agree with you on the Sharingan genjutsu offensive thing. It's the only theory that makes sense considering the Sharingan's capabilities.

 

@Shawshank

 

Interesting theory, but Naruto is more likely to overwhelm an opponent with Shadow clones than to think that far ahead. He should have learned to fight like that considering his opponents, but when you have Tailed Beast Bombs at your disposal there's almost no need for it.

 

 

That occurred after the Heaven & Earth Bridge incident and Naruto's vow not to use Kurama's power again, so Naruto really had no reason to stop Sasuke, and as for Kurama, remember that he was within a seal restricting his power and chakra but now Naruto has undone the seal, lifting the restraints on Kurama.

 

My apologies Shashank, it's just that whenever I see your name I think the Shawshank Redemption. The only problem I have with your explanation is as Jake pointed out earlier, the Sharingan's ability to control biju is a genjutsu. This means that when Sasuke enters Naruto's subconscious, he is doing so based on genjutsu. Genjutsu works by using your own chakra to manipulate an opponent's chakra. This means that when Naruto is under Sasuke's spell, he is in Sasuke's complete control unless he can break the genjutsu by either hurting himself or disturbing his chakra. In a one on one fight, It was theorized that Naruto would be immune to Sasuke's genjutsu bc Kurama could break him out of it like B's mon did for him. However, we had a straight couple panels where Naruto could have easily prevented Sasuke and Kurama had plenty of time to break the genjutsu. Neither of these things happened.

 

The other thing to consider is that while Sasuke used genjutsu on B, it was different from the one used on Naruto. He tried to immobilize B and never entered his subconsious like he did with Naruto and Kurama. My guess is that he didn't know that sharingan could be used to control every tailed beast and not just Kurama. My reasoning for this is that the only source he had for tailed beast control was the tablet in the Uchiha hideout.

 

As much as I prefer attacks like Lightning Blade and Dragon Flame Bombs. Sasuke's toy arrow shooter has nothing on that monstrosity. Sasuke would be bringing a pistol compared to Naruto's atomic bomb.

 

Another thing to consider is whether or not Sasuke could even enter Naruto's subconscious again, you have to remember Naruto was standing still doing nothing, when Naruto and Sasuke fight Naruto is going to be having to keep moving if he stands still and Sasuke was able to put him and Kurama under a genjutsu all it would take is one Chidori to the heart and the battles over.


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#11959 Naninaruto

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:22 PM

In the end though, it's back to Narusaku to me. Something that annoys me a bit about NaruHina fans is their habit of over analyzing and making some absurd inferences. Like in 631, you can't dispute that Minato said and naruto understood "Girlfriend"

One word. Not girl friend. Girlfriend. As in partner, couple, you know.

Naruto, a goof at heart. Says "yeah. That's more or less it" or "kind of." This doesn't mean "she's my friend who's a girl." Instead,This, to me, screams "it's complicated" or "not quite so but basically". ;)

Sakura's response is pure comedic relief, and her telling him to stop screwing around. It's cute, it's funny. Their dynamic is adorable. Naruto isn't butt hurt about it, and wines "owwwwww. but I thought I was supposed to be healing not getting injured" or something like that" sakura's the *tsundere* it's out if her personality to not hit him!

Minato mentioning kushina. Don't even try to tell me hinata is more like kushina than Sakura. Please.

Absolutely a Narusaku moment and there isn't really another way that actually makes logical sense. Later on, also, when naruto is scared of Sakura kicking bijuu, kishi draws naruto with lipstick on, that was pure comedy moment. It wasn't "Wow, sakura's abusive, what a horrible girl to be with"

C'mon.

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#11960 Luna

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:23 PM

My brother just told me Hinata  deserves Naruto because she liked him all along. His logic is " Like the person who likes you". He made me roll up on the ground laughing.

 

Just something I found btw:

 

Pics


Edited by Baka chan, 09 December 2013 - 09:24 PM.


 





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