1445 replies to this topic

[CloudMountainJuror]

Man, the issues with this series are standing out more with every episode. Which is really disappointing me, considering how much I've defended it by now.

 

Spoilers for episode 21

First off, the constant repetition of basically the exact same thing with the ideals and whatnot started getting really grating. We've been over this extensively by now. We get it. Stop talking, please. It isn't contributing anything.

 

Second, because Shirou's conclusion last episode was really clunkily delivered/expressed, the impact of the end of the Shirou/Archer fight had little impact, even if the scene itself was admittedly handled quite well (the music really sold it). Hell, even the direction itself of the ending sequence last episode was really effective. It's the dialogue that killed it. The dialogue tends to be this series' biggest problem.

 

Speaking of bad/baffling dialogue:

 

 

This line made zero sense. Rin had nothing to do with what just transpired between Archer and Shirou. And if that isn't what Archer was talking about, then it was made nowhere clear enough exactly what that line was supposed to be referring to or mean.

 

Even further, the dialogue concerning the grail and the details about it was similarly choppy and confusingly presented. I got the basic gist of it, but there are a lot of details I'm positive I missed because they weren't expressed nearly as clearly as they should have been, considering the time devoted to their explanation.

 

Also, Gilgamesh leaving the fight was handled extremely poorly and jarringly, laughably even. I actually did start chuckling a bit at how ridiculous it was. This was by far the worst example of the "I'm going to retreat from the fight now because [insert some reason here so that the protagonists can live]" trope that Fate seems to overuse.

 

The last scene with Gilgamesh and Shinji was good. Gilgamesh's motivations are alright. Just... man, this series is not doing too well. I've noticed that for the majority of the time, even with its gorgeous animation, it feels...soulless. And even worse, as a result of its clunkiness, tensionless and providing extremely little payoff (if any at all).

 

Hopefully the Heaven's Feel movie(s) will be better.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 31 May 2015 - 07:40 AM.

[trang95]

Man, the issues with this series are standing out more with every episode. Which is really disappointing me, considering how much I've defended it by now.
 

Spoilers for episode 21

First off, the constant repetition of basically the exact same thing with the ideals and whatnot started getting really grating. We've been over this extensively by now. We get it. Stop talking, please. It isn't contributing anything.
 
Second, because Shirou's conclusion last episode was really clunkily delivered/expressed, the impact of the end of the Shirou/Archer fight had little impact, even if the scene itself was admittedly handled quite well (the music really sold it). Hell, even the direction itself of the ending sequence last episode was really effective. It's the dialogue that killed it. The dialogue tends to be this series' biggest problem.
 
Speaking of bad/baffling dialogue:
 

 
This line made zero sense. Rin had nothing to do with what just transpired between Archer and Shirou. And if that isn't what Archer was talking about, then it was made nowhere clear enough exactly what that line was supposed to be referring to or mean.
 
Even further, the dialogue concerning the grail and the details about it was similarly choppy and confusingly presented. I got the basic gist of it, but there are a lot of details I'm positive I missed because they weren't expressed nearly as clearly as they should have been, considering the time devoted to their explanation.
 
Also, Gilgamesh leaving the fight was handled extremely poorly and jarringly, laughably even. I actually did start chuckling a bit at how ridiculous it was. This was by far the worst example of the "I'm going to retreat from the fight now because [insert some reason here so that the protagonists can live]" trope that Fate seems to overuse.
 
The last scene with Gilgamesh and Shinji was good. Gilgamesh's motivations are alright. Just... man, this series is not doing too well. I've noticed that for the majority of the time, even with its gorgeous animation, it feels...soulless. And even worse, as a result of its clunkiness, tensionless and providing extremely little payoff (if any at all).
 
Hopefully the Heaven's Feel movie(s) will be better.

I've been meaning to find a right word to express my overall impression of the series (especially season 2)... You kind of hit it with the word "soulless" for me. The series drags the discussion about "ideals" too much for me. When it comes to pure entertainment, Fate/Stay Night from 2006 was the one I enjoyed the most- it's one of my guilty pleasures, as horrible and embarrassing certain scenes were. Still, Fate/Zero is still the best series in my eyes... I doubt Heaven's Feel Route will overtrump it. Still, I'm looking forward to this route a lot b/c of the drastic change of events and shift in atmosphere.

[Nar123]

Man, the issues with this series are standing out more with every episode. Which is really disappointing me, considering how much I've defended it by now.
 

Spoilers for episode 21

First off, the constant repetition of basically the exact same thing with the ideals and whatnot started getting really grating. We've been over this extensively by now. We get it. Stop talking, please. It isn't contributing anything.
 
Second, because Shirou's conclusion last episode was really clunkily delivered/expressed, the impact of the end of the Shirou/Archer fight had little impact, even if the scene itself was admittedly handled quite well (the music really sold it). Hell, even the direction itself of the ending sequence last episode was really effective. It's the dialogue that killed it. The dialogue tends to be this series' biggest problem.
 
Speaking of bad/baffling dialogue:
 

 
This line made zero sense. Rin had nothing to do with what just transpired between Archer and Shirou. And if that isn't what Archer was talking about, then it was made nowhere clear enough exactly what that line was supposed to be referring to or mean.
 
Even further, the dialogue concerning the grail and the details about it was similarly choppy and confusingly presented. I got the basic gist of it, but there are a lot of details I'm positive I missed because they weren't expressed nearly as clearly as they should have been, considering the time devoted to their explanation.
 
Also, Gilgamesh leaving the fight was handled extremely poorly and jarringly, laughably even. I actually did start chuckling a bit at how ridiculous it was. This was by far the worst example of the "I'm going to retreat from the fight now because [insert some reason here so that the protagonists can live]" trope that Fate seems to overuse.
 
The last scene with Gilgamesh and Shinji was good. Gilgamesh's motivations are alright. Just... man, this series is not doing too well. I've noticed that for the majority of the time, even with its gorgeous animation, it feels...soulless. And even worse, as a result of its clunkiness, tensionless and providing extremely little payoff (if any at all).
 
Hopefully the Heaven's Feel movie(s) will be better.

 
Tbh I don't realy agree with you 
 
-Rin has a part to play too, if she stands with Shirou it's less likely he will become Archer in the future that's why he said that
-The grail was explained quite well IMO, what didn't you understand? It's a rigged game and it's corrupted, if it opens it will bring forth only destruction which is what Gil wants
 
-UBW is a series that works better if you marathon it. I think cutting up in two cours like F/Z did was quite the mistake
The ideal discussion has only been on for two episodes and IMO it's very important for the development of the characters in these routes, futhermore the Answer ( battle between Shirou and Archer) is not a battle of strenght, it's a battle of ideals, if it was of strenght Shirou would've died in the first attack
Regarding some scenes, I think the main problem are the subs, some of them are horribly done and the overall translation is not good, episode 20 for example that line "because you're correct doesn't mean you're right" is wrong
 
-Gilgamesh leaving was in character, he is just an arrogant a-hole like that.
Just consider that he could've won the whole 4th grail war by himself in the first few days if he wanted , however his character isn't like that
 
 
 

I doubt Heaven's Feel Route will overtrump it. 

 
UFO will have nothing to hold back on this one (no censoring)
Expect epicness, HF is best route for a reason

Edited by Nar123, 31 May 2015 - 05:39 PM.

[Gaara's hair]

Booooo!!!

[RyohkiFan]

 
Tbh I don't realy agree with you 
 
-Rin has a part to play too, if she stands with Shirou it's less likely he will become Archer in the future that's why he said that
-The grail was explained quite well IMO, what didn't you understand? It's a rigged game and it's corrupted, if it opens it will bring forth only destruction which is what Gil wants
 
-UBW is a series that works better if you marathon it. I think cutting up in two cours like F/Z did was quite the mistake
The ideal discussion has only been on for two episodes and IMO it's very important for the development of the characters in these routes, futhermore the Answer ( battle between Shirou and Archer) is not a battle of strenght, it's a battle of ideals, if it was of strenght Shirou would've died in the first attack
Regarding some scenes, I think the main problem are the subs, some of them are horribly done and the overall translation is not good, episode 20 for example that line "because you're correct doesn't mean you're right" is wrong
 
-Gilgamesh leaving was in character, he is just an arrogant a-hole like that.
Just consider that he could've won the whole 4th grail war by himself in the first few days if he wanted , however his character isn't like that
 
 
  
UFO will have nothing to hold back on this one (no censoring)
Expect epicness, HF is best route for a reason

I don't know if I agree or disagree because we knew about how Fate was since the beginning and I guess you could say we understand it a bit more since we have the VN (I barely remember though)...I hope I word it right lol

Fate Stay Night is more calm compare to Zero where it has this sense of maturity and errie feelings which got people into Fate which is why I agree with those who say start with FSN and then watch FZ because they're both different but I feel people like a dark feel compare FSN (HF is something else though xD) plus I want my Archer chant

[trang95]

I don't know if I agree or disagree because we knew about how Fate was since the beginning and I guess you could say we understand it a bit more since we have the VN (I barely remember though)...I hope I word it right lol

Fate Stay Night is more calm compare to Zero where it has this sense of maturity and errie feelings which got people into Fate which is why I agree with those who say start with FSN and then watch FZ because they're both different but I feel people like a dark feel compare FSN (HF is something else though xD) plus I want my Archer chant

I thought both of you haven't played it before... I'm planning to play it b/c I want to understand the series better.

The advantage Fate/Zero has in my eyes over FSN is that it's a lightnovel... Therefore, I feel like the anime to Fate/Zero is more cohesive in my eyes unlike FSN where you have to play/watch all three routes to understand the entirety of the series. B/c let's face it: Anime-only watchers coming straight of from Fate/Zero to UBW will be disappointed as hell with Kotomine having been killed of so easily and seeing Saber being sidelined this much.

 

So far my favorite anime adaptation from a visual novel remains to be Steins;Gate.

[RyohkiFan]

I thought both of you haven't played it before... I'm planning to play it b/c I want to understand the series better.
The advantage Fate/Zero has in my eyes over FSN is that it's a lightnovel... Therefore, I feel like the anime to Fate/Zero is more cohesive in my eyes unlike FSN where you have to play/watch all three routes to understand the entirety of the series. B/c let's face it: Anime-only watchers coming straight of from Fate/Zero to UBW will be disappointed as hell with Kotomine having been killed of so easily and seeing Saber being sidelined this much.
 
So far my favorite anime adaptation from a visual novel remains to be Steins;Gate.

Pretty much, all three routes are different and explores Shirou's character for the situation lol Steins Gate!! I only watch a bit...lol I didn't played it...I read it...but I forgot half of everything because too much reading Dx

[trang95]

Pretty much, all three routes are different and explores Shirou's character for the situation lol Steins Gate!! I only watch a bit...lol I didn't played it...I read it...but I forgot half of everything because too much reading Dx

I only watched the anime to Steins;Gate- never played it before, but I'm planning to. It's my favorite time travel story in general tbh... I thought it was well done. Very slowpaced in the beginning which is why a lot of people drop it in the beginning, but it kicks in after episode 9.

[Nar123]

I thought both of you haven't played it before... I'm planning to play it b/c I want to understand the series better.

The advantage Fate/Zero has in my eyes over FSN is that it's a lightnovel... Therefore, I feel like the anime to Fate/Zero is more cohesive in my eyes unlike FSN where you have to play/watch all three routes to understand the entirety of the series. B/c let's face it: Anime-only watchers coming straight of from Fate/Zero to UBW will be disappointed as hell with Kotomine having been killed of so easily and seeing Saber being sidelined this much.

 

So far my favorite anime adaptation from a visual novel remains to be Steins;Gate.

 

I'm currently on day 10 of Fate route 

 

And yeah, it's easier to adaptate a light novel than a visual novel

[trang95]

 

I'm currently on day 10 of Fate route 

 

And yeah, it's easier to adaptate a light novel than a visual novel

How many hours (or days) does is take to complete it?

[CloudMountainJuror]

 
Tbh I don't realy agree with you 
 
-Rin has a part to play too, if she stands with Shirou it's less likely he will become Archer in the future that's why he said that
-The grail was explained quite well IMO, what didn't you understand? It's a rigged game and it's corrupted, if it opens it will bring forth only destruction which is what Gil wants
 
-UBW is a series that works better if you marathon it. I think cutting up in two cours like F/Z did was quite the mistake
The ideal discussion has only been on for two episodes and IMO it's very important for the development of the characters in these routes, futhermore the Answer ( battle between Shirou and Archer) is not a battle of strenght, it's a battle of ideals, if it was of strenght Shirou would've died in the first attack
Regarding some scenes, I think the main problem are the subs, some of them are horribly done and the overall translation is not good, episode 20 for example that line "because you're correct doesn't mean you're right" is wrong
 
-Gilgamesh leaving was in character, he is just an arrogant a-hole like that.
Just consider that he could've won the whole 4th grail war by himself in the first few days if he wanted , however his character isn't like that
 
 
  
UFO will have nothing to hold back on this one (no censoring)
Expect epicness, HF is best route for a reason

 

- She did not have a part to play in what just happened. Archer did not stop attacking Shirou because of her. Shirou did not stick to his ideals last episode because of her. There was absolutely nothing presented to suggest that. The line's presentation makes it sound like she had a direct effect on what just transpired, when there's absolutely no reason presented that she did.

 

- I got the gist of exactly what you said, but nothing beyond that. They were mentioning a hell of a lot of other details which weren't clearly explained (something about souls filling the grail, humans creating the grail, the description of how it was fueled or something), instead stumbled around with awkward descriptive dialogue that didn't clearly add up.

 

- Yes, the discussion is important, but we don't need the exact same thing repeated over and over and over again. Which is exactly what they started doing after a while.

If it's the subs' fault, then it's the subs' fault. But I don't know that. I don't speak Japanese. All I can base my judgment on is the subs, just like any other series I watch in subs. And the dialogue presented through these subs can be pretty horrible.

 

- The fact that he left wasn't necessarily the problem, it was the execution of it. It spent all that time building up him battling the others, and then ended super abruptly in a laughable anti-climax because he was getting dirty. If he was going to leave for such a trivial reason, then they shouldn't have built up the scene so much. It was abrupt and awkward.

I've been meaning to find a right word to express my overall impression of the series (especially season 2)... You kind of hit it with the word "soulless" for me. The series drags the discussion about "ideals" too much for me. When it comes to pure entertainment, Fate/Stay Night from 2006 was the one I enjoyed the most- it's one of my guilty pleasures, as horrible and embarrassing certain scenes were. Still, Fate/Zero is still the best series in my eyes... I doubt Heaven's Feel Route will overtrump it. Still, I'm looking forward to this route a lot b/c of the drastic change of events and shift in atmosphere.

 

At this point, I'll be content if Heaven's Feel is just good, even if it doesn't turn out great like Fate/Zero.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 31 May 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[RyohkiFan]

 
- She did not have a part to play in what just happened. Archer did not stop attacking Shirou because of her. Shirou did not stick to his ideals last episode because of her. There was absolutely nothing presented to suggest that. The line's presentation makes it sound like she had a direct effect on what just transpired, when there's absolutely no reason presented that she did.
 
- I got the gist of exactly what you said, but nothing beyond that. They were mentioning a hell of a lot of other details which weren't clearly explained (something about souls filling the grail, humans creating the grail, the description of how it was fueled or something), instead stumbled around with awkward descriptive dialogue that didn't clearly add up.
 
- Yes, the discussion is important, but we don't need the exact same thing repeated over and over and over again. Which is exactly what they started doing after a while.
If it's the subs' fault, then it's the subs' fault. But I don't know that. I don't speak Japanese. All I can base my judgment on is the subs, just like any other series I watch in subs. And the dialogue presented through these subs can be pretty horrible.
 
- The fact that he left wasn't necessarily the problem, it was the execution of it. It spent all that time building up him battling the others, and then ended super abruptly in a laughable anti-climax because he was getting dirty. If he was going to leave for such a trivial reason, then they shouldn't have built up the scene so much. It was abrupt and awkward.

Not everything is explained in this route...only certain things are, each route reveals something to add that wasn't explain and I didn't feel it built up (mostly cause I knew what was gonna happen and it was already ending..) because...oh bananas...I forgot what I was gonna say... I'll be back Dx lol ....

[Nar123]

How many hours (or days) does is take to complete it?

 

Each route is basically 20 hours worth of content

 

The beginning of the Fate route is a little unbereable because of the major info dump ( because it's the first route) , especially for people who are already familiar with some concepts.

Things are beginning to heat up right now in the VN though

 

 

 

 

 

- She did not have a part to play in what just happened. Archer did not stop attacking Shirou because of her. Shirou did not stick to his ideals last episode because of her. There was absolutely nothing presented to suggest that. The line's presentation makes it sound like she had a direct effect on what just transpired, when there's absolutely no reason presented that she did.

 

- I got the gist of exactly what you said, but nothing beyond that. They were mentioning a hell of a lot of other details which weren't clearly explained (something about souls filling the grail, humans creating the grail, the description of how it was fueled or something), instead stumbled around with awkward descriptive dialogue that didn't clearly add up.

 

- Yes, the discussion is important, but we don't need the exact same thing repeated over and over and over again. Which is exactly what they started doing after a while.

If it's the subs' fault, then it's the subs' fault. But I don't know that. I don't speak Japanese. All I can base my judgment on is the subs, just like any other series I watch in subs. And the dialogue presented through these subs can be pretty horrible.

 

- The fact that he left wasn't necessarily the problem, it was the execution of it. It spent all that time building up him battling the others, and then ended super abruptly in a laughable anti-climax because he was getting dirty. If he was going to leave for such a trivial reason, then they shouldn't have built up the scene so much. It was abrupt and awkward.

 

 

- I think you're interpreting the line wrong, either way I think the subtitles aren't helping

However you will see how Rin is quite relevant in the whole Archer x Shirou thing, I won't spoil it to you 

 

- Man, it's pretty simple 

1) Mages created the grail somehow 

2) The true use for the servants is to serve as the fuel to the grail to work, so basically a servant won't be able to use it

3) Somehow, the grail was corrupted and now instead of granting wishes it grants curses, aka "hell" 

 

Fate route and UBW are supposed to only give us out this much. It's in Heaven's Feel where you learn where the Grail came from, who made it, how it was corrupted, etc

 

- "Repeated over and over again", there really is nothing wrong with that, think of it as an argumentation, the two parties trying to prove that their point is the one that makes sense. Archer didn't wanted to kill Shirou physically but mentally too, he wanted to break him so he really tried to make his point valid by giving his failed life as an example

Besides, the fight was just one episode and half, it didn't drag that much and it gave us some nice scenes like the ones where Shirou find his answer and where Archer finally recovers his old way of seeing things

 

About the subs, well you can't exactly blame the show for the subs screwing up things

 

 

- It is irrelevant if the scene felt awkward for some or another viewer , it's in character and perfectly normal for GIlgamesh to act like that, he is fickle, arrogant and pompous. 

He wanted to exterminate them all but then the dirt raised up and was bound to soil his suit thus he changed his mind because his suit was more valuable to him than mere maggots he could crush any time.

 

It's pretty simple considering the fact that GIlgamesh could make the entirety of Fate/Zero irrelevant if he just decided to fight seriously from the beginning of the war but didn't do it so because of his own arrogance and sense of self-entitlement

Edited by Nar123, 31 May 2015 - 08:38 PM.

[trang95]

 

Each route is basically 20 hours worth of content

 

The beginning of the Fate route is a little unbereable because of the major info dump ( because it's the first route) , especially for people who are already familiar with some concepts.

Things are beginning to heat up right now in the VN though

 

Lol, reminds me of episode 1 of Fate/Zero... I thought my brain was exploding from all the info (only difference of course is that you know all that stuff already).

[CloudMountainJuror]

 

- I think you're interpreting the line wrong, either way I think the subtitles aren't helping

However you will see how Rin is quite relevant in the whole Archer x Shirou thing, I won't spoil it to you 

 

- Man, it's pretty simple 

1) Mages created the grail somehow 

2) The true use for the servants is to serve as the fuel to the grail to work, so basically a servant won't be able to use it

3) Somehow, the grail was corrupted and now instead of granting wishes it grants curses, aka "hell" 

 

Fate route and UBW are supposed to only give us out this much. It's in Heaven's Feel where you learn where the Grail came from, who made it, how it was corrupted, etc

 

- "Repeated over and over again", there really is nothing wrong with that, think of it as an argumentation, the two parties trying to prove that their point is the one that makes sense. Archer didn't wanted to kill Shirou physically but mentally too, he wanted to break him so he really tried to make his point valid by giving his failed life as an example

Besides, the fight was just one episode and half, it didn't drag that much and it gave us some nice scenes like the ones where Shirou find his answer and where Archer finally recovers his old way of seeing things

 

About the subs, well you can't exactly blame the show for the subs screwing up things

 

 

- It is irrelevant if the scene felt awkward for some or another viewer , it's in character and perfectly normal for GIlgamesh to act like that, he is fickle, arrogant and pompous. 

He wanted to exterminate them all but then the dirt raised up and was bound to soil his suit thus he changed his mind because his suit was more valuable to him than mere maggots he could crush any time.

 

It's pretty simple considering the fact that GIlgamesh could make the entirety of Fate/Zero irrelevant if he just decided to fight seriously from the beginning of the war but didn't do it so because of his own arrogance and sense of self-entitlement

 

- Alright. I'll wait and see if the series somehow makes that line make sense by the end.

 

- Yeah, that explanation you provided there makes sense. Problem is that the dialogue (or the subs) didn't present it nearly as efficiently as they could have so that it came across clearly.

 

- Yes, there is. It's called being concise and not wasting time. The execution was so clunky it kept breaking up the battle and pace, particularly early on in this episode, basically reducing any tension that could be building to zero. What really needed elaboration here was what Shirou's conclusion at the end of last episode was and how it made sense. All this episode gave us on that was: "sure it's stupid and hypocritical to keep doing this, but I'm going to do it anyway because I'm the protagonist and I'm right and damn logic, who needs it?". If that's the point they wanted us to take away from it, then fine. But it's an incredibly stupid one, and I would much rather believe they were trying to say something else and failed miserably. It was so jumbled, I can't really tell.

 

You're right, i can't blame the show for the subs being bad. But the subs are all that any non-Japanese speaker has to go on in terms of what the dialogue is saying. Until better subs come along and prove that these current ones are invalid, then these are all I have to base my judgment on.

 

- How is the execution of a scene irrelevant? Execution is everything. Good execution can take what would ordinarily be a horrible idea and make it genius. Bad execution, on the other hand, can ruin just about anything. It does matter if the scene was abruptly handled. It means it was executed poorly, whether it was in character for Gilgamesh or not. That's a valid criticism.

Not everything is explained in this route...only certain things are, each route reveals something to add that wasn't explain and I didn't feel it built up (mostly cause I knew what was gonna happen and it was already ending..) because...oh bananas...I forgot what I was gonna say... I'll be back Dx lol ....

 

Based on what you said about the routes, that's an issue this series has right now. In the original source material, the VN, there were 3 routes included, automatically linked together. It was the nature of the medium. There is no such alternative in the anime adaptations. The point of entry for this series is really unclear. Is it a standalone? No, there are too many vague aspects left up in the air and too much reliance on previous exposure for it to work as a standalone series. Is Fate/Zero meant to be watched before it, then? If that's the case, then the issue is that it doesn't work as a proper sequel to Fate/Zero. Important characters built up from F/Z were not done justice in this (Kirei and Ilya most notably, in addition to Sakura who is barely present at all). It also generally pales in comparison to Fate/Zero's quality. Then, is the 2006 DEEN adaptation supposed to be the point of entry, considering it's the closest thing to a Fate route in anime form we apparently have? Not really, it's far too separated from this series to work as such.

 

This series is in a bizarre limbo state, unsure of where it really belongs. Which really doesn't help it at all.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 31 May 2015 - 09:28 PM.

[Nar123]

 

- Alright. I'll wait and see if the series somehow makes that line make sense by the end.

 

- Yeah, that explanation you provided there makes sense. Problem is that the dialogue (or the subs) didn't present it nearly as efficiently as they could have so that it came across clearly.

 

- Yes, there is. It's called being concise and not wasting time. The execution was so clunky it kept breaking up the battle and pace, particularly early on in this episode, basically reducing any tension that could be building to zero. What really needed elaboration here was what Shirou's conclusion at the end of last episode was and how it made sense. All this episode gave us on that was: "sure it's stupid and hypocritical to keep doing this, but I'm going to do it anyway because I'm the protagonist and I'm right and damn logic, who needs it?". If that's the point they wanted us to take away from it, then fine. But it's an incredibly stupid one, and I would much rather believe they were trying to say something else and failed miserably. It was so jumbled, I can't really tell.

 

You're right, i can't blame the show for the subs being bad. But the subs are all that any non-Japanese speaker has to go on in terms of what the dialogue is saying. Until better subs come along and prove that these current ones are invalid, then these are all I have to base my judgment on.

 

- How is the execution of a scene irrelevant? Execution is everything. Good execution can take what would ordinarily be a horrible idea and make it genius. Bad execution, on the other hand, can ruin just about anything. It does matter if the scene was abruptly handled. It means it was executed poorly, whether it was in character for Gilgamesh or not. That's a valid criticism.

 

 

-Yeah, do this

 

-Your opinion, then again I found it okay 

 

-I didn't really thought it was wasting time, and you really didn't managed to learn what Shirou answer was.

Shirou acknowledges that his ideal is an impossible one from the beginning but at the same time he is peeved by it and doesn't want to give up because he believes in the end he would be able to do it.

Archer shows him the result of this path,because blindly following his ideals even in his after life, Archer ended up as just as a another killer. Shirou acknowledges this, he acknowledges that he won't ever be able to uphold this ideals completely, they are after all an utopia that can never be reached, however he won't stop following them, not because he is "the protagonist!" or something like that, but it's because it's a beautiful wish he inherited from his father, in short  UBW Shirou will never regret his actions while upholding these ideals because for him the value is on the journey and not on the destination, and that's what Archer forgot;

 

This is also a neat comparision to Saber, and one of the reasons she wanted to see the fight, her wish was to erase herself, kind of like what Archer is trying to do, by seeing Shirou win in these battle of ideologies it's pretty clear that Saber has came to a conclusion regarding her whole ordeal too

 

Seriously this is pretty clear by the end of episode 20 and near the end of their fight in episode 21

How people chalk it up to just some dumb shonen junk of "being protagonist" makes no sense

 

- It is irrelevant because the character in question is Gil, and Gil is like that.

If the scene had no build up in the end because the author chose to follow Gil's character, what of it? At least he is not OOC

 

As I already repeated before, if Gil is a servant that had the power to end the 4th war in one day and yet didn't do it so, so ill you call this "bad execution" too? It's just his character.

He is plainly convinced that there is nothing that those "maggots" can do to stop his plans and he has the power to back it up

Edited by Nar123, 31 May 2015 - 09:31 PM.

[RyohkiFan]

 
- Alright. I'll wait and see if the series somehow makes that line make sense by the end.
 
- Yeah, that explanation you provided there makes sense. Problem is that the dialogue (or the subs) didn't present it nearly as efficiently as they could have so that it came across clearly.
 
- Yes, there is. It's called being concise and not wasting time. The execution was so clunky it kept breaking up the battle and pace, particularly early on in this episode, basically reducing any tension that could be building to zero. What really needed elaboration here was what Shirou's conclusion at the end of last episode was and how it made sense. All this episode gave us on that was: "sure it's stupid and hypocritical to keep doing this, but I'm going to do it anyway because I'm the protagonist and I'm right and damn logic, who needs it?". If that's the point they wanted us to take away from it, then fine. But it's an incredibly stupid one, and I would much rather believe they were trying to say something else and failed miserably. It was so jumbled, I can't really tell.
 
You're right, i can't blame the show for the subs being bad. But the subs are all that any non-Japanese speaker has to go on in terms of what the dialogue is saying. Until better subs come along and prove that these current ones are invalid, then these are all I have to base my judgment on.
 
- How is the execution of a scene irrelevant? Execution is everything. Good execution can take what would ordinarily be a horrible idea and make it genius. Bad execution, on the other hand, can ruin just about anything. It does matter if the scene was abruptly handled. It means it was executed poorly, whether it was in character for Gilgamesh or not. That's a valid criticism.
 
Based on what you said about the routes, that's an issue this series has right now. In the original source material, the VN, there were 3 routes included, automatically linked together. It was the nature of the medium. There is no such alternative in the anime adaptations. The point of entry for this series is really unclear. Is it a standalone? No, there are too many vague aspects left up in the air and too much reliance on previous exposure for it to work as a standalone series. Is Fate/Zero meant to be watched before it, then? If that's the case, then the issue is that it doesn't work as a proper sequel to Fate/Zero. Important characters built up from F/Z were not done justice in this (Kirei and Ilya most notably, in addition to Sakura who is barely present at all). It also generally pales in comparison to Fate/Zero's quality. Then, is the 2006 DEEN adaptation supposed to be the point of entry, considering it's the closest thing to a Fate route in anime form we apparently have? Not really, it's far too separated from this series to work as such.
 
This series is in a bizarre limbo state, unsure of where it really belongs. Which really doesn't help it at all.

Ilya and Kirie is mostly the Fate and HF route because they are trying give characters certain importants like here is Caster, Assassin and Shinji (only route where you see him up to the end) and Fate Zero is meant to seen after, it assumes you have some knowledge of the Fate series and other type moon works because they are connected in some ways (plus characters shows up like Cornelius did in FZ)

Ps. Watch Kara no Kyoukai ()

Edited by RyohkiFan, 31 May 2015 - 09:49 PM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

 

 

-Yeah, do this

 

-Your opinion, then again I found it okay 

 

-I didn't really thought it was wasting time, and you really didn't managed to learn what Shirou answer was.

Shirou acknowledges that his ideal is an impossible one from the beginning but at the same time he is peeved by it and doesn't want to give up because he believes in the end he would be able to do it.

Archer shows him the result of this path,because blindly following his ideals even in his after life, Archer ended up as just as a another killer. Shirou acknowledges this, he acknowledges that he won't ever be able to uphold this ideals completely, they are after all an utopia, however he won't stop following them, not because he is "the protagonist!" or something like that, but it's because it's a beautiful wish he inherited from his father, in short  UBW Shirou will never regret his actions doen while upholding these ideals because for him the value is on the journey and not on the destination

 

Seriously this is pretty clear by the end of episode 20 and near the end of their fight in episode 21

How people chalk it up to just some dumb shonen junk of "being protagonist" makes no sense

 

- It is irrelevant because the character in question is Gil, and Gil is like that.

If the scene had no build up in the end because the author chose to follow Gil's character, what of it? At least he is not OOC

 

As I already repeated before, if Gil is a servant that had the power to end the 4th war in one day and yet didn't do it so, so ill you call this "bad execution" too? It's just his character.

He is plainly convinced that there is nothing that those "maggots" can do to stop his plans and he has the power to back it up

 

- I want to go back and transcribe the exact lines of dialogue they used to better support my point, but that'd take way too long, and I admit I'm too lazy to do it. So I guess I'll drop this part for now.

 

- "Shirou acknowledges that his ideal is an impossible one from the beginning but at the same time he is peeved by it and doesn't want to give up because he believes in the end he would be able to do it."

I got that. Problem is, Archer is standing right there proving him wrong. Proving that he wouldn't be able to do it. He is staring at physical evidence. Yes, you address this in the next quote I cite, but I wanted to do this step-by-step.

 

"Shirou acknowledges this, he acknowledges that he won't ever be able to uphold this ideals completely, they are after all an utopia, however he won't stop following them, not because he is "the protagonist!" or something like that, but it's because it's a beautiful wish he inherited from his father, in short  UBW Shirou will never regret his actions doen while upholding these ideals because for him the value is on the journey and not on the destination"

So the moral here is to follow your dreams and give into childish naivete, even if it only ends up making things worse, because... the current you thinks it's a nice idea, and enjoying the journey is more important than the destructive destination? To ignore criticism? To keep believing in what you believe in, even if you've basically been proven 100% wrong?

I reiterate: that's just plain stupid. People chalk it up to dumb shounen junk because that's exactly how it comes across. Hell, it might even come across worse by explicitly saying with its message to ignore criticism, even if it's right.

 

- Quality characters =/= quality scenes. You can keep the character the same and the events the same as long as it flows naturally and well. This scene didn't. A scene making sense from a character standpoint does not justify sloppiness.

It wasn't bad execution when he didn't end the 4th grail war immediately because there were several mitigating factors, such as the fact that he was restrained by two separate masters and a general plan. Fate/Zero also did a great job of justifying logical inconsistencies with character flaws/traits (minus one or two bizarre instances).

 

This, on the other hand, called a ton of attention to him being able to end this in one fell swoop and had little to no convincing mitigating factors present to prevent him from doing so. Maybe it made sense for his character to walk out for such a trivial reason, but the way it was handled felt cheap. An easy alteration to the scene which would have fixed this would be to have him not take out Gate of Babylon at all. Have him talking with them, then show the ash/dirt/soot/whatever it was fall from above, then have him say "you know what, you can't stop me even if you try, so I'm not going to even bother considering killing you; you aren't worth getting dirty over" (obviously not word-for-word) and leave. There. Problem solved. Simple fix. The fight isn't built up too much and it flows a lot more naturally instead of ending abruptly and coming across as a cheap way to let our main characters limp out of there alive. Done. Don't have him consider them a threat by taking out Gate of Babylon, and then suddenly change his mind.

Ilya and Kirie is mostly the Fate and HF route because they are trying give characters certain importants like here is Caster, Assassin and Shinji (only route where you see him up to the end) and Fate Zero is meant to seen after, it assumes you have some knowledge of the Fate series and other type moon works because they are connected in some ways (plus characters shows up like Cornelius did in FZ)

Ps. Watch Kara no Kyoukai ( )

 

Funnily enough though, Fate/Zero requires viewers to have less prior knowledge going in than F/SN UBW does. Fate/Zero makes sense on its own as a standalone, while UBW doesn't. That makes this whole mess even more problematic.

 

Kara no Kyoukai is on my to-watch list.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 31 May 2015 - 10:05 PM.

[RyohkiFan]

 
- I want to go back and transcribe the exact lines of dialogue they used to make my point, but that'd take way too long, and I admit I'm too lazy to do it. So I guess I'll drop this part for now.
 
- "Shirou acknowledges that his ideal is an impossible one from the beginning but at the same time he is peeved by it and doesn't want to give up because he believes in the end he would be able to do it."
I got that. Problem is, Archer is standing right there proving him wrong. Proving that he wouldn't be able to do it. He is staring at physical evidence. Yes, you address this in the next quote I cite, but I wanted to do this step-by-step.
 
"Shirou acknowledges this, he acknowledges that he won't ever be able to uphold this ideals completely, they are after all an utopia, however he won't stop following them, not because he is "the protagonist!" or something like that, but it's because it's a beautiful wish he inherited from his father, in short  UBW Shirou will never regret his actions doen while upholding these ideals because for him the value is on the journey and not on the destination"
So the moral here is to follow your dreams and give into childish naivete, even if it only ends up making things worse, because... the current you thinks it's a nice idea, and enjoying the journey is more important than the destructive destination? To ignore criticism? To keep believing in what you believe in, even if you've basically been proven 100% wrong?
I reiterate: that's just plain stupid. People chalk it up to dumb shounen junk because that's exactly how it comes across. Hell, it might even come across worse by explicitly saying with its message to ignore negativity, even if it's right.
 
- Quality characters =/= quality scenes. You can keep the character the same and the events the same as long as it flows naturally and well. This scene didn't. A scene making sense from a character standpoint does not justify sloppiness.
It wasn't bad execution when he didn't end the 4th grail war immediately because there were several mitigating factors, such as the fact that he was restrained by two separate masters and a general plan. Fate/Zero also did a great job of justifying logical inconsistencies with character flaws/traits (minus one or two bizarre instances).
 
This, on the other hand, called a ton of attention to him being able to end this in one fell swoop and had little to no convincing mitigating factors present to prevent him from doing so. Maybe it made sense for his character to walk out for such a trivial reason, but the way it was handled felt cheap. An easy alteration to the scene which would have fixed this would be to have him not take out Gate of Babylon at all. Have him talking with them, then show the ash/dirt/soot/whatever it was fall from above, then have him say "you know what, you can't stop me even if you try, so I'm not going to even bother considering killing you; you aren't worth getting dirty over" (obviously not word-for-word) and leave. There. Problem solved. Simple fix. The fight isn't built up too much and it flows a lot more naturally instead of ending abruptly and coming across as a cheap way to let our main characters limp out of there alive. Done. Don't have him consider them a threat by taking out Gate of Babylon, and then suddenly change his mind.
 
Funnily enough though, Fate/Zero requires viewers to have less prior knowledge going in than F/SN UBW does. Fate/Zero makes sense on its own as a standalone, while UBW doesn't. That makes this whole mess even more problematic.
 
Kara no Kyoukai is on my to-watch list.

Yeah, VN adaptation are something else xD

Good...those are good movies...do you plan on watching after UBW? Or a little later? :O

[CloudMountainJuror]

Yeah, VN adaptation are something else xD

Good...those are good movies...do you plan on watching after UBW? Or a little later? :O

 

More specifically, VN adaptations not condensed into one series are something else. The Steins;Gate and Higurashi adaptations, for example, didn't turn into disorganized messes like the series of Fate adaptations have. DEEN's 2006 adaptation gets a lot of flack for trying to combine the routes into one series, but I 100% understand why they did it. So that this current situation wouldn't happen.

 

I'm not sure exactly when I plan on watching them. Definitely after UBW, that's for sure. I have other shows on my plate right now before getting to Kara no Kyoukai.