1876 replies to this topic

[Codus N]

Ok, you're right about the intent. And one thing, I used Soeharto as an example of how he could've been. I was saying a "what if" that guy acted the same way as Soeharto. I didn't use him as a comparison. I merely used him as an example on what he could've turned out to be/done. One other thing, now I've realized the hole in your first amendment. Yes it promotes free speech. But does that stated amendment go hand-in-hand with tolerancy of religion & races? the answer is NO. It doesn't specifically state about tolerancy in the same amendment. When we amended our constitution, we adopted your first amendment but with one added rule: "Free speech that is harmful or contains any racial/discriminative elements shall be punished. Whosoever does a discriminative/racial act in the name of free speech shall be punished whether in attempt or has acted upon it".

Do you know what this all means?? this means that the lawmakers of Indonesia foresaw something like this happening.That means they could control any uneasyness or anger if this situation ever happened. I remember back around Labor day there had been a racial incident in one of my provinces & they had arrested the instigator for a few days before some people bailed him out. But those few days of arrest had stunning results. Both of the sides had considerably calmed down & managed to talk about it. I don't really remember the details, but as far as I remember this is what happened. My cousin-in-law happened to be involved in the mediation process. I think I'll ask for some more details on him.

In conclusion, the holes in your constitution is that there are no codes that has a means of prevention for situations like this.

As for the greedy thing, I don't really wanna start accusing, so I suggest you read "Future of Freedom" to understand what I'm talking about.

[Insurrection]

One other thing, now I've realized the hole in your first amendment. Yes it promotes free speech. But does that stated amendment go hand-in-hand with tolerancy of religion & races? the answer is NO. It doesn't specifically state about tolerancy in the same amendment. When we amended our constitution, we adopted your first amendment but with one added rule: "Free speech that is harmful or contains any racial/discriminative elements shall be punished. Whosoever does a discriminative/racial act in the name of free speech shall be punished whether in attempt or has acted upon it".

It doesn't have to say you have to like other people. It has hate crimes laws. Every statehas not just federal but state hate crime laws. Destruction of personal property, harrasment, and so on and so forth. Also who gets to decide what's racial/discriminative elements? What is a discriminative/racial act what is an attempt? With that one statement I could twist anything that is racial or discriminative.

Do you know what this all means?? this means that the lawmakers of Indonesia foresaw something like this happening.That means they could control any uneasyness or anger if this situation ever happened. I remember back around Labor day there had been a racial incident in one of my provinces & they had arrested the instigator for a few days before some people bailed him out. But those few days of arrest had stunning results. Both of the sides had considerably calmed down & managed to talk about it. I don't really remember the details, but as far as I remember this is what happened. My cousin-in-law happened to be involved in the mediation process. I think I'll ask for some more details on him.

In conclusion, the holes in your constitution is that there are no codes that has a means of prevention for situations like this.

As for the greedy thing, I don't really wanna start accusing, so I suggest you read "Future of Freedom" to understand what I'm talking about.

Like I said they could also use it to mean something else, if you could criticize them they could say you defamed or discriminated against him. How many journalists and activists does your country lock up? What if that racial intent in say Java was just a group of people raising the Morning Star flag at a rally?

There are supposed to be holes, that's the point you fill them over say 200+ years.

And what do you mean a few days of arrest had stunning results that kind of means a sort of intimidation was involved. Wasn't there? And what kind of racial incident?

[Strangelove]

It doesn't have to say you have to like other people. It has hate crimes laws. Every statehas not just federal but state hate crime laws. Destruction of personal property, harrasment, and so on and so forth. Also who gets to decide what's racial/discriminative elements? What is a discriminative/racial act what is an attempt? With that one statement I could twist anything that is racial or discriminative.



Like I said they could also use it to mean something else, if you could criticize them they could say you defamed or discriminated against him. How many journalists and activists does your country lock up? What if that racial intent in say Java was just a group of people raising the Morning Star flag at a rally?

There are supposed to be holes, that's the point you fill them over say 200+ years.

And what do you mean a few days of arrest had stunning results that kind of means a sort of intimidation was involved. Wasn't there? And what kind of racial incident?

Since the end of Suharto's presidential rule, the media has increased considerably, in Indonesia. Yet it still has its problems, as it is going from a transitional period of authoritarian rule, to a modern democracy.

Still over the past few years, activist, journalist, and human rights defenders have been subjects of criminal investigation.

http://www.hrw.org/e...ll-shaky-ground


Also Newkerz, the way we see it in America, when free speech is harmful or intolerant, and the government persecutes and arrests because of said things, then it is no longer free speech.

Edited by Strangelove, 12 September 2010 - 11:35 PM.

[Codus N]

It doesn't have to say you have to like other people. It has hate crimes laws. Every statehas not just federal but state hate crime laws. Destruction of personal property, harrasment, and so on and so forth. Also who gets to decide what's racial/discriminative elements? What is a discriminative/racial act what is an attempt? With that one statement I could twist anything that is racial or discriminative.



Like I said they could also use it to mean something else, if you could criticize them they could say you defamed or discriminated against him. How many journalists and activists does your country lock up? What if that racial intent in say Java was just a group of people raising the Morning Star flag at a rally?

There are supposed to be holes, that's the point you fill them over say 200+ years.

And what do you mean a few days of arrest had stunning results that kind of means a sort of intimidation was involved. Wasn't there? And what kind of racial incident?

That's what Judges are there for. Well, you see when it comes to this, the Judges usually use their jurisprudence on the matter. And like I said. scholars in Indonesia have a powerful standing in our society. Plus, they are mostly extremely neutral. About 90%, if I may so. If you don't believe me, then go ahead & do whatever you want. Also, these scholars happen to be representatives of the middle class. With their already strong influence in the government & people, it's no wonder Indonesia has managed to hang on pretty well after the reformation. According to Zakaria, the key to a successful democaracy & good government depends on how strong the middle class is. America is just unlucky that the upperclasses control the government. Not to mention partisanship in the media thanks to fatass media moguls. Which leaves the middle class being singled out.

My point is that the Judges can also be extremely influenced by the citizens when it comes to these situations. And as I've said before, the scholars are representatives of the middle class. Which means they are also influenced by the citizens in an indirect way, because both the citizens & judge see the scholars that way.

Since the end of Suharto's presidential rule, the media has increased considerably, in Indonesia. Yet it still has its problems, as it is going from a transitional period of authoritarian rule, to a modern democracy.



http://www.hrw.org/e...ll-shaky-ground


Also Newkerz, the way we see it in America, when free speech is harmful or intolerant, and the government persecutes and arrests because of said things, then it is no longer free speech.

Ah, I see. well, I suppose based on where we come from we have differing values. I'll stick to " Free speech must be drawn a fine line of appropiatement" or whatever.

Oh yeah, regarding the power of our media, yeah, you're right . We do still have some problems that were left behind by Soeharto's rule. But we're working our way up pretty well, I think.

The 2 top media leaders are Kompas (daily newspaper) and Tempo (weekly newspaper magazine like Time) these two are extremely powerful in influencing the people. They are also mostly about 85-90% neutral most of the time. Which makes them the most trusted media in Indonesia.

And about this:

Still over the past few years, activist, journalist, and human rights defenders have been subjects of criminal investigation.

Actually, that's because the big boys in corruption have the police in the palm of their hands to control. (Not to mention a good portion of the court). It's because the big boys of corruptors are controlling the police corps that those activists & journalists are under investigation. Those journalists & activists often investigate corruption cases. Which is why they are often taken into criminal investigation because those corruptors command them to do so with their big pockets before they sniff out anything that could lead to them being corruption case suspects. But it's pretty rare to have those activists/journalists arrested & put behind bars.

Our shining hope at the moment is the KPK (anti-corruption organization). But it too is also in danger of dismantlement thanks to a bastard corruptor. Not only that, you know the big kicker?? most of the KPK fugitives are from the legislators. (our house of representatives members) which is why some of them are plotting to take down KPK. But of course, the power of our media, scholars/activists & even anti corruption FB groups in Indonesia is far too strong for them to fight back. The influence of the scholars and media in Indonesia on our people is truly great and the house of representatives can't do anything about them. It clearly shows how scholars and activists are highly revered and can point the people to anything.

As for the human rights activists, most of the time they actually cause a riot which is why they are often investigated.

In other words, yes we're having a tumble & a rocky road right now, but we're working on it. Remember that people have flaws.

Edited by Newkerz, 17 September 2010 - 01:32 PM.

[Insurrection]

You've got to be kidding

This has to be a very idiotic move on their part from a PR standpoint to me. Hey, let's sue a democrat for using our footage in an ad what can possibly go wrong? Seriously I'm hoping for a new classification for these guys and MSNBC sooner or later.

Emotional and Mental damages? Chris Wallace? Really!?!

Also which one are you going to October 30th:

This one

or

This one

Edited by Insurrection, 18 September 2010 - 08:58 PM.

[catsi563]

Pretty typical of FOX these days actually. Rupert Murdoch actually told the local fox affiliates that they had to toe the same line of BS that the parent companies been spewing for the last decade.

Heck Shirley Sherrod has more right to sue them for defamation of character then they have to sue anyone for using their own news broadcast. Which as far as I understand is public domain anyways.

and ROFLMAO I love those two for doing that to counter Glenn Becks nonsense. Ive been wanting to say we need to restore Sanity in this country ever since the bloody tea party showe dup on the scene. The amount of deliberate misinformation and out right lies and blatant hypocracy thats been spewed by people on the right lately has just plain gotten out of hand.

I means eriously Its one thing to say something as a political stunt, but these people arent saying this as a stunt. They actually trully honestly believe this load of utter crap.

complete lies such as the presidents not an american, or hes a secret muslim, or the nonsense about the Park 51 center, or Newt Gingrichs patently obvious fear mongering and race baiting.

Its high time we called these people the crackpots that they are and expose them as such. Conservative values are something I can udnerstand and appreciate but this isnt conservativsm. This is pure madness.

I know Ciardhas going to kill me for this but the amount of female lunatics on the right is growing. We have either the completely Ignorant ((Sarah Palin)), The Insane ((Christine O'Donnel, and Sharon Angle)) or the flat out lying ((Michelle Bachman)). I had hope for women in politics when Palin was asked to run as Mccains Running mate and Hillary was pushing President Obama for the nomination.

But now the females on the right are coming on strong and the positions theyve taken on such feminist issues as abortion are unconscionable. Angle alone has such controversial issues as repealing both Medicaid and Social Security ((both of which my dad relies on for his well being)). And O'donnel sweet mother nature she is as far out there as Ive ever seen anyone. Her blatant homophobia was put on display during her campaign and her so called proof that gays can be cured of ""the gay"" was debunked by one of her former so called success stories.

I only pray that Steven and Jon both actually manage to restore the sanity of this nation and get us back to honest discussion of the issues.

If not the alternative is too horrific to contemplate. The last time a nation deep in economic distress had such fearmongering and paranoid conspiracy theorizing going was in europe.

Thats right, germany specifically when a guy named Adolph Hitler was constantly howling about the Jews and how they were taking the country in a terrible direction and how theu were responsible for eveything from the economic depression to dirty dishes.

whats scary? it worked.

[Insurrection]

First it's comedy and I want to freakin go to both of them because it's for satire purposes to expect something other than that is unrealiable. Second it's A-d-o-l-f. Adolf Hitler and maybe I should post the announcement for the event.

http://www.thedailys...-restore-sanity Then you would know the Hitler thing is the opposite of the intent.

Tone it down a notch for America.

Second I know this is completely irrelevant to the actual mismanagement of the Palin look-alike lady in Delaware because she's spent millions on legal fees and other things while preaching fiscal responsibility but this was funnny.

Edited by Insurrection, 19 September 2010 - 01:56 AM.

[BlackLightning]

Newkerz, as much as middle class in Indonesia is concerned, they are the second largest group of population in the country (The first being the low income class). However, its also true that as far as "Court Justice" is concerned, those with the most money definitely have an edge against the opposition. Thats a cold hard fact that happens all over the country with the only exception is if the crime is so blatant that its impossible NOT to give the verdict, even then, wealth still comes into play, why else do you think a wealthy serial killer got the same length of service behind bar as a poor robber? Even you can't deny that most of the time, those in higher, wealthy position look down considerably toward those in lower, poorer position in society. The minority drive the society while the majority forced to follow.

I used to live in Indonesia and I used to be part of the lower income society (yes, I used to live on the street) and its only with luck and preserverence I manage to raise to middle income. I'm well aware of the injustice happening there, thank you very much.

[Nate River]

Pretty typical of FOX these days actually. Rupert Murdoch actually told the local fox affiliates that they had to toe the same line of BS that the parent companies been spewing for the last decade.

Heck Shirley Sherrod has more right to sue them for defamation of character then they have to sue anyone for using their own news broadcast. Which as far as I understand is public domain anyways.

and ROFLMAO I love those two for doing that to counter Glenn Becks nonsense. Ive been wanting to say we need to restore Sanity in this country ever since the bloody tea party showe dup on the scene. The amount of deliberate misinformation and out right lies and blatant hypocracy thats been spewed by people on the right lately has just plain gotten out of hand.

I means eriously Its one thing to say something as a political stunt, but these people arent saying this as a stunt. They actually trully honestly believe this load of utter crap.

complete lies such as the presidents not an american, or hes a secret muslim, or the nonsense about the Park 51 center, or Newt Gingrichs patently obvious fear mongering and race baiting.

Its high time we called these people the crackpots that they are and expose them as such. Conservative values are something I can udnerstand and appreciate but this isnt conservativsm. This is pure madness.

I know Ciardhas going to kill me for this but the amount of female lunatics on the right is growing. We have either the completely Ignorant ((Sarah Palin)), The Insane ((Christine O'Donnel, and Sharon Angle)) or the flat out lying ((Michelle Bachman)). I had hope for women in politics when Palin was asked to run as Mccains Running mate and Hillary was pushing President Obama for the nomination.

But now the females on the right are coming on strong and the positions theyve taken on such feminist issues as abortion are unconscionable. Angle alone has such controversial issues as repealing both Medicaid and Social Security ((both of which my dad relies on for his well being)). And O'donnel sweet mother nature she is as far out there as Ive ever seen anyone. Her blatant homophobia was put on display during her campaign and her so called proof that gays can be cured of ""the gay"" was debunked by one of her former so called success stories.

I only pray that Steven and Jon both actually manage to restore the sanity of this nation and get us back to honest discussion of the issues.

If not the alternative is too horrific to contemplate. The last time a nation deep in economic distress had such fearmongering and paranoid conspiracy theorizing going was in europe.

Thats right, germany specifically when a guy named Adolph Hitler was constantly howling about the Jews and how they were taking the country in a terrible direction and how theu were responsible for eveything from the economic depression to dirty dishes.

whats scary? it worked.

Fearmongering and paranoid conspiracy theorizng? And you follow that up with a Hitler/Nazi reference?

[Codus N]

Newkerz, as much as middle class in Indonesia is concerned, they are the second largest group of population in the country (The first being the low income class). However, its also true that as far as "Court Justice" is concerned, those with the most money definitely have an edge against the opposition. Thats a cold hard fact that happens all over the country with the only exception is if the crime is so blatant that its impossible NOT to give the verdict, even then, wealth still comes into play, why else do you think a wealthy serial killer got the same length of service behind bar as a poor robber? Even you can't deny that most of the time, those in higher, wealthy position look down considerably toward those in lower, poorer position in society. The minority drive the society while the majority forced to follow.

I used to live in Indonesia and I used to be part of the lower income society (yes, I used to live on the street) and its only with luck and preserverence I manage to raise to middle income. I'm well aware of the injustice happening there, thank you very much.

Umm....yeah.... that's what I said didn't I?? And yes, the lower class makes up for most of the population. But it's the middle class that has more influence. Remember the May protests?? most of those were motored by the middle class. The middle class also often as an advocate for the lower classes too, remember?? It's basically like this. if the middle class are influenced by the lower class or anything, then you can be sure kitten's about to go down soon.

[catsi563]

A parallel and an apt one considering that its exactly whats happening.

Though Nate I grant you the irony is not lost on me

And Insurrection believe me I know its Satire I do, but its satire thats badly needed because of how far its gone lately. Actually if you want a serious laugh wait untill Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh and Palin all go nuts over the two of them mocking their rally for america.

Seriously Nate I hate having to use that reference but as a kid I grew up watching old news reels and such of WWII and how hitler came to power. And the parallels Im seeing are absolutely terrifying.

Id be honestly trully suprised and appalled if any Jew in the US voted republican this year because the parallels are horrific. I could probably get a film of Beck and put a side by side comparison of Hitlers speeches and itd be like listening in stereo to two madmen.

Hell I used to listen to Glen Beck when he was on CNN headline News. While I didnt always agree with him I could understand where he was coming from and find some common ground for debating the issue.

But ever since 9/11 after his move to FOX, I doint know if hes got a brain tumor, or if an alien parasite has taken him over and hes a pod person, or if hes just plain gone clean around the bloody blue bend. But he is officially Insane. Hes out there on pluto right now trying to convince them that President Obama is Un-Plutonian and is plotting to take away their god given rights to be cold.

I simply cannot listen to the man with a straight face anymore. My foreheads red from constantly face palming, and Im going to get whiplash from shaking my head.

And Insurr your right that witchcraft thing was Hillarious. Because I personally know some active practicing Wiccans. Its funny to me to hear her spew that crap given that as a Roleplayer Ive been accused of the deviltry and satanism and similar nonsense.

Heck Ill lay you a bet she just pissed off every true wiccan practioner out with that nonsense.

[Insurrection]

Seriously Nate I hate having to use that reference but as a kid I grew up watching old news reels and such of WWII and how hitler came to power. And the parallels Im seeing are absolutely terrifying.

Id be honestly trully suprised and appalled if any Jew in the US voted republican this year because the parallels are horrific. I could probably get a film of Beck and put a side by side comparison of Hitlers speeches and itd be like listening in stereo to two madmen.

Ookay, I'm going to go with Jon Stewart on this one.

I disagree with you, but I'm pretty sure you're not Hitler.


I disagree strongly with Glenn Beck, but he ain't Hitler. Also why are you appalled by a Jewish Republican?

Edited by Insurrection, 19 September 2010 - 05:30 AM.

[catsi563]

Is he hitler? No of course not.

But is he following the same path?

Yes he is.

This is how it started in Nazi germany. A country under crushing economic debt, a charismatic leader who comes out of nowhere with energetic and loud speeches about the current goverment and how they and the ((insert boogeyman here: Jews, liberals, Muslims, homosexuals etc etc etc...)) are responsible for causing all the problems, and how their policies are part of whats wrong. And how sweeping drastic and even if needed bloody change is required.

Sound familiar?

Is he Hitler? no not at all. But is he goose stepping down the same path? Well whats that old saw about history and what happens when you fail to learn its lessons?

Hell were in the middle of a mess because we keep forgetitng the lessons of the great depression and keep letting business's run hog wild as they please.

[Insurrection]

Is he hitler? No of course not.

But is he following the same path?

Yes he is.

This is how it started in Nazi germany. A country under crushing economic debt, a charismatic leader who comes out of nowhere with energetic and loud speeches about the current goverment and how they and the ((insert boogeyman here: Jews, liberals, Muslims, homosexuals etc etc etc...)) are responsible for causing all the problems, and how their policies are part of whats wrong. And how sweeping drastic and even if needed bloody change is required.

Sound familiar?

One problem with that arguement...like every conflict caused today (except Iran), WWI started it. The Treaty of Versailles crushed Germany economically by causing inflation. Before the Great Depression even occured Germany was crushed. There is no true scorn felt through the nation from say losing an Empire and being stripped of it publicly. Imagine if everyone in your country in the time of Nationalism had their dignity stripped from them.

Hitler was a WWI veteran that people could rally behind because he had a rhetoric but that was a country of 62 million. The Nazi party at it's height had 8.5 million members, Glenn Beck has the average viewership of 2.4 million. Jon Stewart and Colbert have the average viewership combined of 2.8-3.4 million.

I could say for every boogeyman accused in America there is an equal presence to contend that the opposite is true.

Also Nazi's were known for propoganda which is kinda hard now with everyone having access to youtube and google.

Is he Hitler? no not at all. But is he goose stepping down the same path? Well whats that old saw about history and what happens when you fail to learn its lessons?

Hell were in the middle of a mess because we keep forgetitng the lessons of the great depression and keep letting business's run hog wild as they please.

No. These are not lessons from only the depression. The last time income inequality was this high was the beginning of the 20th century. I'm talking Mark Twain 'Guilded Age' sort of stuff. This goes back to Teddy Roosevelt. Back when Socialism was considered a great idea from the current theories spreading. The working class bought into that idea.

Except instead of Monopolies it's Corporate Oligarchies. And you don't have the manufacturing structure in place to go with the massive influx of the immigrant population. This was when the IRISH were considered foreign.

If you really truly believe that he's following the same path as Hitler then you better check the Kool-Aid.

Edited by Insurrection, 19 September 2010 - 06:02 AM.

[catsi563]

Beck is following Hitlers path. whether he turns from it or is turned from it is up for debate. And Hitlers main theme was that Jews were responsible for nearly everything up to and including the black plague. People were so angry and scared they believed him. The crushing war reparations were just one symptom of the disease which allowed him to rise to power.

And the boogeyman is at the heart of the issue right now. republicans especially the tea partiers are pushing the boogeyman from everything from Illegal immigrants to the Muslims, to the green technology to homosexuals and anything else they can use to scare people with and distract them from the issues.

[Insurrection]

Beck is following Hitlers path. whether he turns from it or is turned from it is up for debate. And Hitlers main theme was that Jews were responsible for nearly everything up to and including the black plague. People were so angry and scared they believed him. The crushing war reparations were just one symptom of the disease which allowed him to rise to power.

And the boogeyman is at the heart of the issue right now. republicans especially the tea partiers are pushing the boogeyman from everything from Illegal immigrants to the Muslims, to the green technology to homosexuals and anything else they can use to scare people with and distract them from the issues.

NO, HE'S NOT. This is why I think people are overreacting. Hitler comparisions are done too much that people forget what truly happened. True Cost of the Second World War and the Holocaust, but you and Beck are accusing people of doing what Hitler did. You are exactly like Glenn Beck if you keep calling him Hitler someone who would demean what peolpe truly lost because it's the best comparison you can come up with. If you want to comapre Beck to someone try William Jennings Bryan without the political office and some different philosophies.

Because I've been saying Glenn Beck isn't Hitler.

You've been responding HE'S HITLER!!!!!!!

Edited by Insurrection, 19 September 2010 - 05:25 PM.

[catsi563]

clearly your not reading my response or are incapable fo doing so so let me clarify.

I AM NOT SAYING HES HITLER, NOR HAVE I EVER SAID SUCH.

I am saying that he is following the same path. He's using the blame game that Hitler used but instead of Jews, he's throwing everything on the Democrats and Liberals and Muslims and Gays etec etc etc, so on and so forth. He's using the same Rhetoric, and the same twisted patriotic zeal. He's using the same fearmongering to push peoples tempers.

Hes leading us or at least hes leading the conservative right by its collective noses and they are eating it up because it plays to their worst fears.

Just like Adolph did.

Well I for one will not stay silent like the world governments did. Nor like the german people did while this lunatic leads us down a path of fear and bigotry that can have only one inevitable outcome.

I will speak out against him, and I will exercise my voting rights to remove any politician that follows his insane agenda.

Oh and you are right about one thing.

He isnt like Hitler in one respect.

When hitler rose to power he did it on the back fo hatred and fear, but he also murdered his opponents during the night of long knives. He was the only leader left after his followers were done.

Glenn thinks hes gonna be the next demogogue to rise to power hes got another thing coming. Peopl dont like Live demogogoues once their in power. because a live demogogue tat brought down the old government is just as likely to turn against the new one.

Old Demogogues tend to be the first one sent to the guillotine or shot. After all a dead Martyr is worth more as a symbol then a live mouth.

[Miss Soupy]

You could say the same thing about Obama too, since his team always blames Bush. Everyone in politics uses the 'blame game', but that doesn't mean they are following Hitlers path. You are basically being just as extremist but in the opposite sense. That doesn't make it better. And LOL, not calling him Hitler but saying he is being like the man? What is the difference exactly?

[Strangelove]

I disagree with you, but i don't think your Hitler.
or
Im not afraid of Tea Baggers/Socialists/Muslims/but i am afraid of spiders.

[Insurrection]

I disagree with you, but i don't think your Hitler.
or
Im not afraid of Tea Baggers/Socialists/Muslims/but i am afraid of spiders.

Take it Down a Notch for America

or

Freak out for Freedom