1255 replies to this topic

[db84x]

i'll just be rewatching reruns of yuyu hakusho, full metal, kenshin, and outlaw star.on toonami aftermath. *sigh* good ol days where practically every anime was considered "cool", no "mines better! your favorite stinks!" its no different than "my toy is better than your toy"

 

There are many good seinen anime and manga around, don't forget that focus group for shounen is kid and preteen 

[rocci]

@neon ranger
That's the nature of big community.
It will attract many people from good to bad.

@touken
Naruto and especially bleach are the epitome of cool manga, but cool manga =/= good manga.

[db84x]

@ rocci

 

Glad someone at understand what i talk all along.

[TouKen4Life3g]

@neon ranger
That's the nature of big community.
It will attract many people from good to bad.

@touken
Naruto and especially bleach are the epitome of cool manga, but cool manga =/= good manga.

Pretty much.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

 

Well it's neither surprising nor shocking. It just goes to show how empty the brains are of fans that still support this kitten. BTW I don't like objectifying women either, just throwing that out.

 

 

 

Surprising, no. But no less sickening. Honestly every time I hear the way some men (note: I know not all straight men think this way) talk about women as if their value is equal to how good their body is, it just makes me that much more grateful to be asexual. 

 

 

There are many good seinen anime and manga around, don't forget that focus group for shounen is kid and preteen 

 

There are also very intelligently written shounen that can easily hold their own against many seinen -- Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter x Hunter, and Pandora Hearts come to mind. The target demographic really does not matter, it's the quality of the story itself that's important. Adults can be attracted to shounen series -- and shoujo! -- for the same reason many adults enjoy novels aimed at young adult audiences, because sometimes, they are better written than the novels targeted towards adult readers.

 

I'm not trying to say anything against seinen, by the way. Many series I enjoy, and several of my favorites, are in the seinen demographic.

[Phantom_999]

Oh? You are? I find asexuals to be fascinating individuals!    And don't get me wrong I'm not undermining such mentality, just saying it is pretty apparent and obvious how such fans think because they sure as hell don't care abut the story.

Edited by Phantom_999, 07 May 2016 - 02:19 PM.

[rocci]

@ rocci
 
Glad someone at understand what i talk all along.

I don't.

[NeonRanger]

The standards for Shounen in general kinda lowered itself...because the fans themselves decided to lower their taste and expectations of a good manga.

[db84x]

@ NeonRanger & BakeNeko-Chan

 

We can't ask good manga in shounen because since DB revolution shonen tend to became cool manga.  Sometimes shonen produce a good manga but it won't last long, ussually it evolved into cool manga to please audience or mangaka end it before it went too far. 

[rocci]

We can ask for good manga for shonen manga.

Naruto is not cool nor good. It lost it coolness or goodness after pein arc.
That same goes with bleach but at least bleach still the cool factor which is all about bleach.

[db84x]

@ Rocci

From WSJ reader perspective Naruto still cool so they vote it in upper rank for 15 years while Bleach is suck so they gave it bottom rank. ToC system isn't perfect but it help WSJ rule Japan manga industry for years.

I agree Naruto isn't good manga but shounen mass still saw it as cool manga.

Edited by db84x, 09 May 2016 - 10:31 AM.

[Dalton.T.R]

I'm not going to bash the story because I haven't seen Baruto yet, and I'd like to give it a few honest years before I really give it a chance. But I will say this. What's up with the character designs? They look so ridiculous.

 

Man, I miss the days of early Shippuden... 

[ultranx]

Well so it had began. Any translations out?

 

 

 

Hopefully this year will end exciting for you guys when Oct 10 comes around.

 

 

Following what Kishi had done with the original manga, no doubt NS would have been canon, otherwise, it is what Skarrow said.

what's your book called?

[rocci]

Nope, it's popular. Popular doesn't equal cool.
Naruto character, story, and action aren't cool anymore.
Part 1 may cool, but that's thanks too hxh and many more.
Toc is only for the beginner. What matter the most is the volume sell.

@dalton
The art will improve overtime.

[James S Cassidy]

@neon ranger
That's the nature of big community.
It will attract many people from good to bad.

@touken
Naruto and especially bleach are the epitome of cool manga, but cool manga =/= good manga.

It's not really cool either. There is another word for it. It is called "Trendy."

You see, because Naruto, Dragonball Z, Bleach, and One Piece are all part of this "mainstream" manga point, it is what people like think is "We have to like it otherwise we won't be considered cool." Back in the day, people would watch Dragonball Z and wear the stupid shirts simply because it was the trendy thing at the time. Admittedly, I feel for the same trend just as any kid would, but as you get older and experience more impressive and deeper things, the "old stuff" starts to fade and you start to see the real true colors of it.

Take example Dragonball Z. Now when this show first showed up kids thought it was cool. It was the ultimate hero story about a guy who overcomes struggles, fights with flashy moves, and had some cool names to attacks. People thought it was great...for a time...because they never saw something like this before. Sure we had Sailor Moon, but that seemed more aimed towards girls than guys....regardless of who actually watched it.

Now as you get older and see more stories like Game of Thrones or more thrilling TV shows where good guys can die, where death has consequences, and not everything is in black and white...you start to see shows like Dragonball Z as more of a superficial story. Goku is really not that great of a hero. Oh sure, he will beat the bad guy up and become more powerful, but besides that Goku is pretty bland. He doesn't inspire people to do anything and he really don't have any threats beyond "They are evil, I must defeat them." At times he seems more than a big kids who is too stupid to know anything real than an actual person. Goku never faced hardships of moral difficulties, moral decisions, or fought villains that were more right than he was. He never had to question his own character like so many series today do. So Dragonball became bland and too simple...especially in a media that thrives on complicated themes.

I mean, look at even our own comics where Batman is seen as better than Superman simply because he has no superpowers and Batman himself is more like an anti-hero. However, Superman has his own moral struggles that people miss UNTIL they actually read one of his comics. Other than that, they just see stereotypical depictions of Superman and Batman.

This is besides the point.
Naruto was trendy because it was basically Dragonball Z with a more realistic approach to character development....at least in the beginning. Characters weren't just evil for evil sake and at best some were just evil simply because the system said they were, not because they actually were. This made characters interesting and more than just two dimensional. Problem was, while some of the characters were multidimensional, the Naruto audience was not. They figured that as long as they liked the character they should stay and if they hated them they should go.

Let's be honest, despite whether you like them or hate them, Obito's and Itachi's stories were far more interesting and deeper than Naruto's and Sasuke's were. This is because the characters themselves were more than just revenge or some other shallow viewpoint. They legitimately had a problem with a system that was corrupted and both handled it in ways they thought was the best choice...even if all choices were wrong. That is real life...sometimes you will make the wrong choice because society let you down and made you pick that choice....sometimes it is the making of your own doing...

However, while Naruto started off good, the end result suffered. I am still not sure exactly where, but Kishimoto just....gave up and stuck to cliche results to finish the story. Was it because he was out of ideas? Probably one of the causes, but not sure.

Naruto instead became a trend. "Hey this is what all the cool kids are reading...let's all watch it too." And that's when the series went downhill. People who didn't really understand the series started to read it and felt the series belonged to them. The same trendy kids who only believe they went through hardships, but really were just whiny little punks who felt oppressed because their parents didn't give them the latest cellphone. This is the generation that still read the story today or are complaining about shallow things.

When the trend wore off, it moves to Bleach...and when that one goes...it will go to One Piece. A vicious cycle of "popularity for popularity sake" tropes that end up ruining the story entirely. Ever notice how when Naruto ended, Bleach started popping up again? Trend.

Was Naruto ever cool? I don't know. As a series I don't know, but as a character Naruto himself is not. It was the other characters that made the series like Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and so forth...characters who were multidimensional and fun to see...even if a little bit creepy. That's what the old school sees or used to see....now we just want our depth back into our characters. We want to see Naruto stop being this...dumbass and actually be something like a real character/person would be. Instead, all the characters became flat so as to not "confuse the trendy dumb people who still watch it."

You didn't watch Naruto because Naruto was a good character, you watched Naruto because a lot of people he faced or interacted with were good characters. It's like saying "You love the The Dark Knight movie not because of Bale and him being Batman, but because of Heath Ledger being the Joker and his amazing performance. Batman is bland, but Joker was so much more interesting." This is why one of the greatest Batman comic of all time is not even about him, but about the Joker. (The Killing Joke.)

The art can improve, but you can;t make these characters interesting when all they are is rehashed one dimensional trash with only thing keeping it afloat is because "It is a trend."

Yeah, so where bell-bottoms and parachute pants at one point, but that doesn't mean they were good or still are good.

Really think about this and we all know this to be true.

In the end, we gave these characters more depth than the writer ever could and that is mostly why we loved this series. Sure, Kishimoto made the foundation, but we are the ones who built the towers.
 

 

There are also very intelligently written shounen that can easily hold their own against many seinen -- Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter x Hunter, and Pandora Hearts come to mind. The target demographic really does not matter, it's the quality of the story itself that's important. Adults can be attracted to shounen series -- and shoujo! -- for the same reason many adults enjoy novels aimed at young adult audiences, because sometimes, they are better written than the novels targeted towards adult readers.

 

I'm not trying to say anything against seinen, by the way. Many series I enjoy, and several of my favorites, are in the seinen demographic.

I sometimes would argue that good Shonen ARE Seinan. Like I said, One Punch Man. It is such a fine line that I just consider it a Shonen anyway despite what people claim. I mean, I know the differences, but Naruto seems to have more gore, violence, and adult themes than OPM. I wonder why Naruto isn't a seinen by now.

I mean look at this:

Although some seinen manga like Xxxholic share some similarities with "shōnen" manga. Seinen manga can focus on action, politics, science fiction, fantasy, relationships, sports, or comedy and while they may contain sexual content (as well as other mature material)

Naruto contains all of these elements and even includes gore, cursing, and so much more. So how can Naruto not be considered a Seinen, but OPM is? This confuses me. That's like saying the Pretty Women is a romance movie, but not a romance comedy despite the lines being so thin.

Hell, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure started out classified as a Shonen and ran in Shonen Jump, but then changed it to a Seinen.

Fairy Tale is another Shonen that comes to mind that is well written....mostly. And stuff that isn't is not that big of a deal or it is played for laughs now.
 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 11 May 2016 - 11:39 PM.

[Catra]

heck i still think characters like zabuza, haku, nagato, and tobirama are still badass. do i care to reread the arcs they were in? not really because they ultimately meant nothing at the end.

 

and james has a point. im in absolute love with man of steel and BvS because its challenging these heroes and giving them arcs and its ultimately about these heroes growing and changing like real characters to become the heroes we want them to be.

Edited by Catra, 12 May 2016 - 04:58 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

What is the reaction to this manga in japan after the first chapter's... retreading of the movie? Largely negative?

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 12 May 2016 - 05:36 AM.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

what's your book called?

 

Guardians of Midgard (as in Middle Earth) and the name of the titled series is LOEF. Its an action, adventure, Fantasy and shonen mother and son story based upon what if Sakura had a son with Naruto and is a story about her, raising her son alone in a hostile universe. 

[Dalton.T.R]

heck i still think characters like zabuza, haku, nagato, and tobirama are still badass. do i care to reread the arcs they were in? not really because they ultimately meant nothing at the end.

 

and james has a point. im in absolute love with man of steel and BvS because its challenging these heroes and giving them arcs and its ultimately about these heroes growing and changing like real characters to become the heroes we want them to be.

I don't get the idea of Batman VS Superman...like, at all. 

 

Superman: An alien from a distant world who could destroy the entire planet if he really wanted to.

 

Batman: A really rich dude in a badass uniform...

 

It doesn't make any sense to me...

[ultranx]

 

Guardians of Midgard (as in Middle Earth) and the name of the titled series is LOEF. Its an action, adventure, Fantasy and shonen mother and son story based upon what if Sakura had a son with Naruto and is a story about her, raising her son alone in a hostile universe. 

LOEF? I can't figure out what it stands for, trying to google it, keep getting older books of the same name to show up instead.

Edited by ultranx, 12 May 2016 - 03:09 PM.