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The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread


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#11241 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:24 PM

Naruto never gave up his feelings, he always tried to invite her to dates and make her like him, but he doesn't force his feelings on her.

 

Now look at part 1 Sakura, in their first training what did Kakashi said to her? "You were only thinking of Sasuke", basically she didn't value Naruto at that time no? That is what development is for, you change. Kakashi was redeemed.

So because Sakura didn't value Naruto the same way he valued her, he shouldn't love her?  Anyway KakaRin is not negative IMO, as I mentioned many times it could've became negative but it didn't, if you think otherwise I can't change your mind, it's up to you. :)

 

 

For me it's the same thing, holding back your feelings, hiding your feelings, because you acknowledges that your love interest loves another guy and doesnt do any moves on her because respect her feelings.

Love is selfish in nature, even Naruto was a bit selfish too, when it comes to Sakura, he wanst happy when he saw Sakura hugging Sasuke.

He does fake smiles too.

 

NaruSAku has had negatives, but not on this particular scene.

There was a scene on the chuuni exam where she was going to give up the exam to not make Naruto give up his hokage's dream, it's not compared to "You were only thinking of Sasuke" on a moment where they were just training, and she even saved his life on the Zabuza arc.

 

The scene where NS was portraited as negative was, on Sakura's confession when she was willing to go with Sasuke leaving Naruto behind who almost died for her in fights like Naruto vs Gaara.

And then the POAL where she says that the only thing that she cares is Sasuke and ask Naruto to bring him back.

Then later on part 2, it grows and then she does the opposite, she ws willing to drop her feelings for Sasuke in favour to Naruto and proves that Naruto's happiness is what she cares the most.

Ending with Naruto being a bigger presence on her heart than Sasuke.

 

Kakashi was on Rin's death chapter like this "No way i'll let you die, i promised Obito i would protect you".

 

Feel free to bring me a panel that at least matchs with NS or one of those things Sakura or Naruto did for each other.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 17 November 2013 - 04:30 PM.

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#11242 Miiami

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:30 PM

NaruSAku has had negatives, but not on this particular scene.

There was a scene on the chuuni exam where she was going to give up the exam to not make Naruto give up his hokage's dream, it's not compared to "You were only thinking of Sasuke" on a moment where they were just training, and she even saved his life on the Zabuza arc.

 

The scene where NS was portraited as negative was, on Sakura's confession when she was willing to go with Sasuke leaving Naruto behind who almost died for her in fights like Naruto vs Gaara.

And then the POAL where she says that the only thing that she cares is Sasuke and ask Naruto to bring him back.

Then later on part 2, it grows and then she does the opposite, she ws willing to drop her feelings for Sasuke in favour to Naruto and proves that Naruto's happiness is what she cares the most.

 

Kakashi was after the Obito thing like this "No way i'll let you die, i promised Obito i would protect you".

Feel free to bring me a panel that at least matchs with NS or one of those things Sakura or Naruto did for her.

I really don't understand what your point is, you're saying it yourself, NaruSaku had negative moments, and just because Kakashi had negative thought somehow it makes it totally negative? Kakashi did same thing after he learned his lesson he valued Rin's life the most and he was willing to die for her.

 

Just because Kakashi didn't loved her romantically it does not make their relationship negative. Can you tell me what your point is?


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#11243 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:31 PM

I really don't understand what your point is, you're saying it yourself, NaruSaku had negative moments, and just because Kakashi had negative thought somehow it makes it totally negative? Kakashi did same thing after he learned his lesson he valued Rin's life the most and he was willing to die for her.

 

Just because Kakashi didn't loved her romantically it does not make their relationship negative. Can you tell me what your point is?

It because NS negative moments were corrected, and we didnt see this in Kaka/Rin, there's no such thing like Kakashi wanting to redeem himself like Sakura, there's no such thing like Kakashi wanting to prove he wasnt a trash anymore to Rin, he accepted he was a trash and remained as it is.

 

My point is, Kaka/Rin as a couple it's portraited as negative because he was going to leave her behind when she deeply valued Kakashi's life, and despite the nice things she did to him.

Kakashi saw himself as a trash and accepted it and went further by telling her that she should not love him, because obviously he didnt felt the way and after that he didnt went to make up for his mistakes or correct this like Sasuke did on part 2.

If He did love him like some people implied on 7 pages ago, he would go for make up this mistake, he would go to find a way to correct.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 17 November 2013 - 04:40 PM.

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#11244 Miiami

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:36 PM

It because NS negative moments were corrected, and we didnt see this in Kaka/Rin, there's no such thing like Kakashi wanting to redeem himself like Sakura, there's no such thing like Kakashi wanting to prove he wasnt a trash anymore to Rin, he accepted he was a trash and remained as it is.

What???? Isn't protecting her life is proving that he isn't trash? Isn't chaning his ways already showed that he changed? Just because Kakashi thinks he's a trash doesn't mean that he is. He said "I was ONCE a trash that would abandon his friends" but he isn't now.


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#11245 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:41 PM

What???? Isn't protecting her life is proving that he isn't trash? Isn't chaning his ways already showed that he changed? Just because Kakashi thinks he's a trash doesn't mean that he is. He said "I was ONCE a trash that would abandon his friends" but he isn't now.

I edited my post but as a response to that part.

But inst a difference why he didnt said "i'll protect you Rin because i wont let my comrades die anymore, or i wont fail anymore rather than keep shoving Obito's promise?"

The fact that he broke Obito's promise hurt him more than Rin's death which is shown here

 

http://i29.mangaread...uto-3685611.jpg


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 17 November 2013 - 04:48 PM.

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#11246 Miiami

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:50 PM

I edited my post but as a response to that part.

But inst a difference why he didnt said "i'll protect you Rin because i wont let my comrades die anymore, or i wont fail anymore rather than keep shoving Obito's promise?"

What?! Why would you say something like that, obviously Kakashi cared for Rin not just because of his promise with Obito.....


Edited by Miiami, 17 November 2013 - 04:51 PM.

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#11247 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:52 PM

What?! Why would you say something like that, obviously Kakashi cared for Rin not just because of his promise with Obito.....

I write too fast and then the ideas come into my head at the same time.

I'm going to avoid editing my post too often.

 

 

What?! Why would you say something like that, obviously Kakashi cared for Rin not just because of his promise with Obito.....

 

As a matter of fact, there's different things when it comes to redeeming someome, trying to protect her is not a way to redeem himself, i never stated Kakashi didnt care about Rin i know it's kind of confusing but i said that it's fact that the promise was a huge hindrance on Kakashi that comes to the point that he does care more about the promise or because he cares more about Rin, it's clouded, i believe he cares about Rin obviously but not on the same way Rin cares about him or he doesnt valued her on the same way she valued his life, it's proven when he was going to let her behind.

 

I know those cases arent similar but after Sakura realizing the pain that she has given to Naruto, the first thing she went was to make up for that even if it means that she has to kill Sasuke, we dont see it on Kakashi, we dont see him actually wanting to redeem himself to Rin.

Kakashi even states that what kept him alive was Obito's will, and that had nothing to do with Rin or whatever, most importantly he still kept viewing himself as a trash because of Obito's promise and he found his reason to live by doing what he needs to see Naruto succeed.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 17 November 2013 - 04:58 PM.

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#11248 Miiami

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:56 PM

I write too fast and then the ideas come into my head at the same time.

I'm going to avoid editing my post too often.

Now you're saying that he didn't value Rin's life... Seriously..? Do you see kakashi like that? He always visited Rin's grave, he started to cry and collapsed when he killed Rin.


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#11249 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:05 PM

Now you're saying that he didn't value Rin's life... Seriously..? Do you see kakashi like that? He always visited Rin's grave, he started to cry and collapsed when he killed Rin.

Oh man, i said he didnt valued her life on the same way she valued him.
The fact is that he was reluctant to abandon the mission to save her life when Rin obviously would go to save his life.
Obito even point out that - "Rin did a custom medical kit with love and care for you" and Kakashi replies that "it was only her duty" then later he punches him and then after some small talk he's redeemed.

That's my point, Kakashi obviously doesnt deserved Rin's love that's where it was portraited as negative and Kishi didnt changed that, in fact he paralleled it on SS, by making a similar scene "great guy" by point out the exactly same thing that Kakashi implies on his rejection upon Rin.
 

Yep he did but look at what he shocked more, his innability to keep his promise ot Obito, he felt more Rin's death or the fact that he could not keep the promise i dont know but that's debatable, Kishi didnt made the fact that Kakashi wanted to protect Rin only because she was his teammate but becuse of the promise too nd how he focused on that and how it affected him as it's shown on 609.

In fact Kishi never stated that Kakashi's desire to protect Rin was to make up for the fact he tried to abandon her totally the opposite when Sakura heard about Naruto's feelings and decided to kill Sasuke and/or return Naruto's feelings to make up for the POAL.

Obviously he visited her grave when he also visited Obito's, he cared for her.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 17 November 2013 - 05:13 PM.

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#11250 Miiami

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:13 PM

Oh man, i said he didnt valued her life on the same way she valued him.
The fact is that he was reluctant to abandon the mission to save her life when Rin obviously would go to save his life.
Obito even point out that - "Rin did a custom medical kit with love and care for you" and Kakashi replies that "it was only her duty" then later he punches him and then after some small talk he's redeemed.

That's my point, Kakashi obviously doesnt deserved Rin's love that's where it was portraited as negative and Kishi didnt changed that, in fact he paralleled it on SS, by making a similar scene "great guy" by point out the exactly same thing that Kakashi implies on his rejection for Rin.
 

And does Obito deserve her love? How many people he killed both directly and indirectly. Kakashi changed that's the point. And there is no such thing on deserving someone's love, if you love someone you love them no matter what. That really sounds like what certain shippers say about Hinata deserving Naruto more than Sakura.

 

KakaRin/SasuSaku parallels because the dork of the team loves girl that loves the cool guy and cool guy isn't interested in girl romantically. And actually in part 1 Sasuke unlike Kakashi didn't abandon Sakura and Naruto, he actually put their lives above his revenge, this happened in Gaara fight.


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#11251 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:21 PM

And does Obito deserve her love? How many people he killed both directly and indirectly. Kakashi changed that's the point. And there is no such thing on deserving someone's love, if you love someone you love them no matter what. That really sounds like what certain shippers say about Hinata deserving Naruto more than Sakura.

 

KakaRin/SasuSaku parallels because the dork of the team loves girl that loves the cool guy and cool guy isn't interested in girl romantically. And actually in part 1 Sasuke unlike Kakashi didn't abandon Sakura and Naruto, he actually put their lives above his revenge, this happened in Gaara fight.

About Obito, yes he did kill many of the people but did he do anything negative to Rin? it's explained he did those bad things because she lost her and his weakness lies on the fact he only had her as his source of strenght when Naruto had everyone, it doesnt justify why he doesnt deserve her or whatever, Sakura didnt stopped loving Sasuke because he was a criminal in fact that didnt even affected her, only the fact he tried to kill her.

 

What does Hinata has be with here, does Hinata deserves Naruto's love more than Sakura?
We would see it if Sakura did only negative things for Naruto.

 

"About love inst about deserving "

People says "love inst about deserving" but literally 100% dislike SS for the very same reason (Sasuke being an a**hole to Sakura).

Just look at the rants, Sasuke tried to kill sakura, Sasuke this, Sasuke only made her cry and bla bla bla.

Even RTN drama CD states this "Sakura deserves someome like Menma".

"

KakaRin/SasuSaku parallels because the dork of the team loves girl that loves the cool guy and cool guy isn't interested in girl romantically. And actually in part 1 Sasuke unlike Kakashi didn't abandon Sakura and Naruto, he actually put their lives above his revenge, this happened in Gaara fight."
As a sidenote : Sasuke betrayed them when he left the village, Sai even said this and was punched and Tsunade even admitted that she didnt put Sasuke on the bingo book because of how Naruto and Sakura would feel.
This and how both of the girls are told to move on because they should not be in love with those guys (Kakashi leaving her behind, and Sasuke tried to kill her)which Sasuke's case being much more worse, doesnt it represent them as negatives? that was my point.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 17 November 2013 - 05:29 PM.

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#11252 Miiami

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:28 PM

 

About Obito, yes he did kill many of the people but did he do anything negative to Rin? it's explained he did those bad things because she lost her and his weakness lies on the fact he only had her as his source of strenght when Naruto had everyone, it doesnt justify why he doesnt deserve her or whatever, Sakura didnt stopped loving Sasuke because he was a criminal in fact that didnt even affected her, only the fact he tried to kill her.

 

What does Hinata has be with here, does Hinata deserves Naruto's love more than Sakura?
We would see it if Sakura did only negative things for Naruto.

 

"About love inst about deserving "

People says "love inst about deserving" but literally 100% dislike SS for the very same reason (Sasuke being an a**hole to Sakura).

Just look at the rants, Sasuke tried to kill sakura, Sasuke this, Sasuke only made her cry and bla bla bla.

 

"

KakaRin/SasuSaku parallels because the dork of the team loves girl that loves the cool guy and cool guy isn't interested in girl romantically. And actually in part 1 Sasuke unlike Kakashi didn't abandon Sakura and Naruto, he actually put their lives above his revenge, this happened in Gaara fight."
This and how both of the girls are told to move on because they should not be in love with those guys, doesnt it represent them as negatives? that was my point.

 

As I said KakaRin is not negative, it would've become negative if Kakashi did abandoned Rin,(but if you think otherwise, whatever then) but he didn't. SasuSaku is negative for many reasons, in hospital Sasuke pushed Sakura with the plate of apples, he tried to kill her when they first met after two years, next time they meet he tries to kill her two times. Kakashi didn't treat Rin like that.


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#11253 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:35 PM

As I said KakaRin is not negative, it would've become negative if Kakashi did abandoned Rin,(but if you think otherwise, whatever then) but he didn't. SasuSaku is negative for many reasons, in hospital Sasuke pushed Sakura with the plate of apples, he tried to kill her when they first met after two years, next time they meet he tries to kill her two times. Kakashi didn't treat Rin like that.

I know that, but it's portraited as negative, this whole argument "it would become negative if he did abandoned Rin" it's not different than trying to kill or not, because he did said that to her, and that is equivalent to betrayal.

kaka/Rin like i pointed out it's not equivalent on the same way as doing negative things like trying to kill her three times.
Obviously they are different in some ways but they are portraited as that, you may think they arent negative due to your standards but Kishi portrait both Kakashi and Sasuke as guys that those girls should not be in love because of the things they did or tried to like Kakashi tried to abandon her, and Sasuke trying to kill her multiples times and those stuff you pointed out.

it's a fact that we cant deny that Kishi chose to portray as it is, you may not think it's negative and i respect that but you cant deny the fact that SS and KR was portraited on the same way.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 17 November 2013 - 05:37 PM.

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#11254 Miiami

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:39 PM

I know that, but it's portraited as negative, this whole argument "it would become negative if he did abandoned Rin" it's not different than trying to kill or not, because he did said that to her, and that is equivalent to betrayal.

kaka/Rin like i pointed out it's not equivalent on the same way as doing negative things like trying to kill her three times.
Obviously they are different in some ways but they are portraited as that, you may think they arent negative due to your standards but Kishi portrait both Kakashi and Sasuke as guys that those girls should not be in love because of the things they did or tried to like Kakashi tried to abandon her, and Sasuke trying to kill her multiples times and those stuff you pointed out.

it's a fact that we cant deny that Kishi chose to portray as it is, you may not think it's negative and i respect that but you cant deny the fact that SS and KR was portraited on the same way.

It's not a fact, it's an interpretation.


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#11255 sushi.

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:45 PM

Kakarin and SS weren't portrayed in the same way. Sasuke was portrayed as the antagonist, the villain, when he tried to kill Sakura. Kakashi was portrayed as the friend who couldn't keep his promise, he couldn't protect her.


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#11256 narulsaku

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:49 PM

@miiami:i think he said that in the fist part . still i find this wired . i think he has joined the aliance to examine narutos strength or to get new powers .

god is sweet.......
courage,,,,,,,,,,,
doesn't always roar.............
sometimescourage is quite voice at the
end of the day saying,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
'll try again tomorrow"


#11257 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:49 PM

It's not a fact, it's an interpretation.

 

Kakarin and SS weren't portrayed in the same way. Sasuke was portrayed as the antagonist, the villain, when he tried to kill Sakura. Kakashi was portrayed as the friend who couldn't keep his promise, he couldn't protect her.

 

 

Interpretation = I dont think kaka/rin is negative because trying to abandon Rin is not similar to Sasuke's actually trying to kill Sakura.
Fact = 

Rin

http://i1.mangareade...naruto-4763.jpg

"i forgot to point out this too"

-Rin loved you, , you were important to him and because of that i'll protect you though life and death"

(Obito loves you)

(I'm a trash and i tried to abandon you, gets sad because Kakashi tried to abandon her)

 

Sakura:

http://i24.mangaread...ruto-412541.jpg

(Naruto loves you)

http://i12.mangaread...uto-2347827.jpg

[...]

(the guy you must love must be a great guy, gets sad because Sasuke is not a great guy)

The same thing Kakashi implied.

 

They were portraited on the same way.

 

@Sushi

Actually i dont even know how this disagree with my post.

I dont even know what this has to do with my post you said "KakaRin and SS arent portraited similar because Sasuke and Kakashi are different characters?"
it's the same as saying that Obi/Rin and NS or Mina/Kushi and Naru/Saku arent portraited similar on some aspects because Kushina was a jinchuuriki and minato was a hokage who could not protect his students, i hope you can explain it better, i did not get it.

Or i didnt expressed what portray is clearly.

I'm confused here honestly.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 17 November 2013 - 06:20 PM.

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#11258 sushi.

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:23 PM

^Because it's hard to get the point of your posts. I scratch my head while reading. How were they portrayed in the same way? I don't see the connection between the pages your linked to.

 

The primary difference is that Sasuke as far as we know, doesn't feel a tiny bit of remorse, while Kakashi did. Kakashi recognized himself as trash and admitted it, ironically while he was protecting Rin with his life.

More differences? The intention and mental state of Kakashi and Sasuke. Not to mention that Sakura personally resents her love for Sasuke, she made it even more negative all by herself. Rin really didn't mind loving Kakashi.


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#11259 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:27 PM

^Because it's hard to get the point of your posts. I scratch my head while reading. How were they portrayed in the same way? I don't see the connection between the pages your linked to.

 

The primary difference is that Sasuke as far as we know, doesn't feel a tiny bit of remorse, while Kakashi did. Kakashi recognized himself as trash and admitted it, ironically while he was protecting Rin with his life.

More differences? The intention and mental state of Kakashi and Sasuke. Not to mention that Sakura personally resents her love for Sasuke, she made it even more negative all by herself. Rin really didn't mind loving Kakashi.

Yes i understand this, those differences, and i acknowledge them the connection is there , the difference is that Sakura wasnt told by her love interest.

Rin got the (Obito loved you, and i'm a trash) directly from Kakashi(he tried to abandon her).
Sakura got it indirectly (naruto loved you, and that Sasuke is evil (Sasuke in dark flames[he tried to kill her and etc...]).

The two pages doesnt give the notion or at least the idea of "you should move on" or that those guys are not the ones you should love "a.k.a great guy"?

http://i12.mangaread...uto-2347827.jpg

this is the only thing i'll ask.

 

@bolded.
I edit too often, i'll work to change this habit.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 17 November 2013 - 06:38 PM.

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#11260 KnS

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:48 AM

The two pages doesnt give the notion or at least the idea of "you should move on" or that those guys are not the ones you should love "a.k.a great guy"?

 

Going by the strictest interpretation, yes. I agree.  Both girls were rejected in a way that suggested they should move on. However, I don't agree that the two rejections meant the same thing, or were meant to be an exact parallel of each other.  Kakashi's rejection of Rin was more about him and what he had needed to learn, while Sasuke's rejection was more about Sakura and what she needed to learn.
 
There are many, many differences between Kakashi/Rin and Sasuke/Sakura that you apparently don't consider as significant or relevant as some of the rest of us do.  These differences lie not only in the circumstances, but in the integrity and motivation of the character involved.
 
Toward the end of Part I, Sakura gives a very long and detailed explanation of her feelings for Sasuke.  She talks about their time together as teammates, asks if he remembers the day of the Bench Scene when he got angry because she didn't understand loneliness (to which he replies that he does not remember), and she tells him she will know that kind of loneliness if he leaves.  After listening, Sasuke then rejects her -- not by saying he's unworthy or that she'll be better off, but by saying she's "annoying" and he prefers to choose the path of revenge.  When Sakura's pleas turn into a threat to scream the alarm, Sasuke does thank her and then knocks her out.
 
In the Gaiden, Rin barely gets started on her confession when Kakashi cuts her off.  He rejects her immediately, without letting her talk about how great he is or how much she loves him, and says he's not good enough --  apparently even to hear her words -- because he was once the kind of trash who would have abandoned her.
 
The way I see it, the bottom line is.... Sasuke rejected Sakura out of cold selfishness, to cuts bonds so he would be free to pursue revenge and murder.  Kakashi rejected Rin out of humility because he did not consider himself worthy.  So yes, although both girls were ultimately rejected, the reasons why and the way the rejections were handled casts Kakashi's rejection of Rin in a far more positive and respectful light than Sasuke's rejection of Sakura.
 
Kakashi was obviously traumatized by his father's fate, leaving him hung up on rules and doing things according to shinobi "law" so he could right his father's wrongs and not be considered that kind of trash.  The very fact that Kakashi went on about how emotions were "unnecessary things" suggests that he did have emotions, and was determined to keep them contained in order to do the "right thing" as a ninja.  Minato touched on that, by essentially saying that Obito needed to be more mindful of the rules, while Kakashi needed to realize there was more to being a shinobi than rules. 
 
In a sense, Kakashi and Obito were two sides of the same coin.  One having superior skill, focus, and control, the other having way more heart than brains, skill, or focus. I'm personally not comfortable making the same comparison with Sasuke and Naruto.  I don't see them as two sides of the same coin.  Even at his worst, Kakashi was a good person who was trying to do the right thing for the right reasons.  That cannot be said of Sasuke.  In that way Sasuke's character is much more like Orochimaru -- cold, selfish, sexually ambiguous, and obsessed with power and superiority.
 
Was Kakashi in love with Rin when Obito died?  No, I don't believe that.  Even if deep in his heart he was interested in her and appreciated her heartfelt attention, his "shinobi must be emotionless tools of society" mantra would have prevented him from acknowledging it.  And after he changed -- after Obito "died" in sacrifice for both of them -- any chance there might have been of Kakashi returning Rin's feelings was sealed off out of respect for Obito.
 
The thing that makes me (and probably others) speculate about Kakashi/Rin is how much better a person Kakashi was than Sasuke to start, and then how much he changed after Obito's "death."  Kakashi took on a lot of different qualities -- Obito's tardiness, a friendship with Gai, reading Jiraiya's smut books, etc. If he had become so much more open, so much more "human" after Obito's death, isn't it possible that he might have developed romantic feelings for Rin later on that he kept buried?   I think it's possible, although it wouldn't have changed the outcome in the end.
 
By contrast, I don't see Sasuke as ever having the potential to develop romantic feelings for Sakura.  Especially not now, not after he chose such a dark path and all the negative drama that's happened between them -- and between him and Naruto.  Again, in this way I think Sasuke is far more like Orochimaru than Kakashi.





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