I thought by responding to the shorter post first would be faster, but it still took too long. I'll respond to the rest later, I have other things that I need to do right now.
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In Sasuke's curse-sealed mind-raped state, he was willing to sacrifice anything, his own life included, to get his revenge. This is part of what Sasuke needs to prove he has overcome in order to be redeemed.
And from that point, it has regressed from this flippant acceptance to a brush-off (311) to outright rejection (350). If you ask me, it seems that Sakura was simply humoring Naruto because she values his friendship more now, but lately she's getting tired of putting up with his advances since she's just. not. interested.
I'd disagree. When was she humoring him? Do you mean 245? I don't think she was humoring him. There is really no indication that this was the case. Nothing in her expressions and mannerisms suggest as much. I already said it is too much to say this is proof of love. Because it, especially considered alone, is not.
Naruto's timing was also inappropriate, especially in 350. So much is made of this with little reference to the context in which it occurred.
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You missed the point. I'm saying Sasuke sacrificed friends, family, a home, love, etc., things people would normally want, for the sake of revenge. By grace of that, if Sasuke was not in the least bit interested in Sakura's offer, it wasn't. Is it foolish? I think so only if her romantic feelings are more important that her friendship ones and the Team's feelings as a w a sacrifice for him to reject it.
My statement remains the same. What that says is a lot about his priorities and what he places value on. If he values that as much as you say, why not say it. Why not offer to come back when he's done, or even stay for her sake. She is simply not as important as his own personal desires. He trades her offer for his desires. It's still selfish. Naruto meanwhile gives his up for hers. I'll grant you that a sacrifice need not been noble to be one in the strictest sense of the word, but as I said, it doesn't take much to give up someone else's desires in order to pursue your own. True sacrifice usually involves a person giving up something they value so that someone else may have what they desire, not the other way around.
Based on your statement the impression I got was that you were trying to compare Sasuke's sacrifice to Naruto's at the Promise of a Life Time. To me the significance of Sasuke's sacrifice isn't close to Naruto's. Sasuke chose his desires over her's, Naruto gives up his own for her.
Besides, the way you've worded the counter you presume he's interested in offer. You say it would not be a sacrifice if he placed no value on her offer, but what makes it a sacrifice? You surely cannot mean that it is one because he placed value on it, otherwise that is a circular argument. Personally, I do think he's appreciative of it. While I doubt I we place the same significance on the thank you, I'd at least agree, that it shows appreciation. By that I mean it's more of a thank you for everything type of thing and that he appreciates she cares. What amounts to what other NaruSaku fans have said: "Thanks, but no thanks."
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It feels like so man Naruto/Sakura fans assume that "Sasuke became a bad guy and that's that, he needs to go rot and die like the bad guy he chose to be". Yes, what Sasuke has done is horrible. And yet Naruto and Sakura are apparently willing to forgive him and want to bring him back. It doesn't matter if you don't forgive Sasuke, what matters are Naruto and Sakura.
You know, Kishimoto has actually placed an anti-Sasuke character in the manga before. Remember when Sai was first introduced, and what Naruto and Sakura said and did to him? And nowadays Sai is another Sasuke fan who wants him to be saved.
Sai doesn't have a deep personal connection to Sasuke. I think Sai cares because Naruto cares, not because he really wants Sasuke back for himself.
I know it doesn't matter whether I forgive him, I've never acted like it did.
I get into arguments with Sasuke fans frequently about the first point, mostly because many of them are unwilling to even make the acknowledgment you just did. Based on the principles and rules Kishimoto set up in his own world, what Sasuke did is horrible.
I won't speak for other fans, but I've never said anything of the sort. I
wanted Sasuke to become that villain. I utterly despise what Kishimoto has done with him in the arc. The other members of H&E and PB can vouch for this. My dislike of the current Sasuke has nothing to do with pairings and everything to do with what I believe to be shoddy story telling in this arc. To me, Kishimoto ruined his character. As is stands his redemption is going to be just plain too easy. I wanted Sasuke to have to work, suffer, and EARN that redemption, not have it handed to him on a silver platter. He's not suffered a single consequence for what he's done and with Juugo it looks like he may set up it's an all the curse seal's fault or Orochimaru's fault. I don't want his redemption handed to him for him to take when he feels like it.
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Or it could simply be Naruto realizing that his joke of a crush couldn't hold a candle to Sakura's love for Sasuke. It's certainly mature of him to accept that, though.
Except when it comes to Sakura -> Sasuke, it had always been painted in a romantic light, unlike Naruto -> Sasuke. Having the last major scene between Sasuke and Sakura (181) be a love confession is heavily damaging to your claim that the most important part of the Sasuke/Sakura relationship is simply friendship. Unless done very carefully, having Sakura drop her romantic feelings for Sasuke would imply a lack of forgiveness on her part for Sasuke's actions, especially if Sasuke comes back willing to accept her romantic offer.
It's entirely possible that Sakura isn't moping about her feelings because she realizes it isn't going to do her a damned bit of good while Sasuke is outside of Konoha doing who knows what. Because of the special circumstances surrounding Sasuke and Sakura, simply discarding the possibility of Sakura retaining her romantic feelings is foolish. If Sasuke were back in Konoha and Sakura still acted the same way, you would have a much stronger case.
Besides, before Sasuke became consumed by his quest for revenge, one of his goals was to revive his clan, and his redemption could very easily have this goal return to his priority list. He can't do that as a bachelor, and the only female he has any real development with is Sakura...
On the first point: Look at his words and actions. Naruto sure didn't act like his crush meant nothing to him otherwise, his (1) sacrifice in fact means very little because it means he's giving up something that has no value, (2) and it would not have hurt him very much to give her up. If it was such a joke, then as drama that scene's and Naruto's statement about understanding how she feels is pathetic, but if he truly doesn't take it seriously, how could he really understand? Moreover, you going to have to do more than suppose it could be, otherwise it's simply naked speculation.
I disagree that it ending that way is damaging to my claim, because what you state my claim is not what I said. I said they their bonds as Team 7, thus, Naruto included, is the most important relationship and within that group Naruto vis-a-vis Sasuke being the most important. The only scene in which she laments Sasuke period is a Team 7 moment. Moreover, I can and will simply say that the total lack of follow up on that at any time in Part 2 is damaging to the implication you're making. If their relationship is mostly revolved around love, why the lack of affirmation of her love in Part 2? She does not say it, she does not think it, and her behavior does not distinguish it from her desire to have her Team back the way it was. Her desire to have her Team back has been emphasized, her desire for his love back has not. As I said before, you presume it's continued existence. I'm not saying that the assumption is completely unreasonable, but that doesn't change the fact that it's an assumption.
If the fact that it ended on love means so much, why the neglect? Why no flash back on his reappearance or at anytime since then? Why has she not referenced of even thought of that moment? She doesn't have to constantly mope and whine about it to emphasize it. She could have easily been staring at a photo of just Sasuke, and she was not. Besides Sakura to Sasuke is only half of it. Nothing about Sasuke to Sakura has implied any such romance.
On Paragraph 3 of the quote: Again, it's suppositional you haven't offered anything to show the statements truth. Moreover, I never discarded the possibility. I stated that you're presuming it's existence, which you are.
I suppose my sidebar comment about disagreeing with the presumption is what made you say that. If that's the case then simply disregard it. I more meant that I don't hold in the same regard as SasuSaku fans do and that I think there are reasons that this presumption
might not be true. Can I prove absolutely that this is case? No, I can't. To the extent what I said implies otherwise, disregard it. To be honest, there is almost nothing in Part 2 that can confirm or deny it's existence, it hasn't been touched on.
Is it possible she still feels that way? Of course it is possible, it's possible until Kishimoto specifically declares otherwise in the manga. He has not, and if he does, it will be near the manga's end since primary focus now is their bonds as a team, not her specific romantic feelings for him.
Finally on the last paragraph, again, saying it's possible that...is just speculating. Why is that possible or even likely? If you wish to keep talking of possibilities, it's fine, but you are going to have to explain why it's likely to occur, otherwise it's just naked speculation.
My response is this: it was his goal, a goal that was stated a single time and has since been forgotten in the manga. Sasuke hasn't reaffirmed this at any point and since that point hasn't behaved in a manner that is consistent with that end. If that goal meant so much, why sever all bonds with Konoha the way he's tried to. He openly stated he has no interest in the place and it sure looks like he has no intention of returning voluntarily nor has he said anything about coming back to Sakura, for Sakura or anything like that.
Your statement is also overlooking the critical point...before Itachi. Even if what you say is true, Itachi changed so much of what was happening. Based on his reaction, Sasuke seemed to believed he'd made alot of progress. When he lost as badly as he did, it showed him how weak he really was (relatively speaking) and just how much further he had to go. I think his failure and Naruto's success against Gaara (coupled with Itachi's interest in Naruto and lack of interest in Sasuke) made Sasuke feel weak, inferior, and inadequate.
His butt kicking at the hands of Itachi changed and clearly moved his desire for revenge above any other interest or priorities. That nothing else truly mattered except for that. At least, that is what he behavior is suggesting.
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