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The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread


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#10601 BakeNeko-Chan

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:56 PM

Well, that's because that's not her character to do so. It's writing logic. But yeah, I can see why it makes you feel this way.

 

Well, of course, but it is another example that Hinata is not as important as people like to make her out to be. The reason I brought up that panel in the first place was because someone (can't remember who) said Hinata was not aware of the Kyuubi when Pein attacked Konoha, but apparently she was.



#10602 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:18 PM

 
Well, of course, but it is another example that Hinata is not as important as people like to make her out to be. The reason I brought up that panel in the first place was because someone (can't remember who) said Hinata was not aware of the Kyuubi when Pein attacked Konoha, but apparently she was.

Well she was selfish so all thoughts never come to her mind. Sakura first hand experience it and know the best thing to do is protect everyone and find a way to contact Yamato. It's not like she will do the same attempt because she knows better.

#10603 BakeNeko-Chan

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:25 PM

Well she was selfish so all thoughts never come to her mind. Sakura first hand experience it and know the best thing to do is protect everyone and find a way to contact Yamato. It's not like she will do the same attempt because she knows better.

 

Ugh, I am definitely glad it was not Sakura in Hinata's place there. -_- At least Sakura was actually trying to do something productive, and not uselessly sacrificing herself, even though people tend to ignore her contributions during the Pein arc, just because she didn't do anything flashy like Hinata.


Edited by BakeNeko-Chan, 31 October 2013 - 08:53 PM.


#10604 Shadow1275

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:14 PM

 

The way I see it, they were 'dishonored' because they were such an elite clan, feared and powerful, and they were all mercilessly slaughtered in their sleep, basically. I would think, to Sasuke, this would seem like making a mockery of a prestigious shinobi clan, his clan. In this way, the Uchiha were shamed in death, and originally Sasuke thought killing his brother would restore their lost honor, but once he found out it was the advisors and Danzo who masterminded the whole thing, that need for revenge became directed at Konoha. By destroying Konoha, the Uchiha will be redeemed, or at least that seems to be how Sasuke thinks - if that is still his plan after this war is over.

Oh ok so you meant that they were dishonored post Itachi massacre rather then pre-Itachi massacre. I was thinking more pre-Uchiha massacre. The only reason that I would have to disagree is that the events of the massacre were kept top secret, the only thing that was revealed was that Itachi went rogue [supposedly insane] and murdered his whole clan. No-one else knew about the coup de tat that was planned by Sasuke's father. Not to mention that despite the events that transpired, the Uchiha were still held in high regard as powerful warriors and Sasuke could have risen through the shinobi ranks had he stayed in Konoha, just not as Hokage.

 

As for Sasuke's desire for revenge, I know he said that he will purify the "Uchiha" with the blood of the village, but Imo he's really just motivated by his brother. Every single time he makes a Heel face turn to switch sides, it is related to Itachi. When he left Konoha to join Orochimaru, it was bc he met his brother and was crushed by him. When he turned into a murderous psychopath, it was bc he found out Itachi had been doing everything for him. And when he supposedly "Turned good" it was bc his brother wanted to protect the Leaf village. Now how he "protects" the village is another story.

 

Nice find on the Hinata knowing about Kyubi thing. I guess that she did know about the Kyubi, the question is did she know how to trigger it and it's effects. Makes me think that Sakura might have hung back during that fight bc she was afraid of her pain triggering Naruto's transformation. Especially after she saw what happened when Orochimaru taunted Naruto about Sasuke.


Edited by Shadow1275, 31 October 2013 - 09:32 PM.

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#10605 rocci

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:17 PM

Do you think Hinata (and sasuke) know (and/or acknowledge) that naruto love sakura?

#10606 morgaine4

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:25 PM

 

The bolded: I'm actually the other way around. I don't like either pairing, but if it came down to it, I'd choose NaruHina over SasuSaku. If NH had more consistent development and interaction, I feel it could work, but SS is a pairing I can't picture working at all without a complete overhaul, I don't see Sasuke as being any good for Sakura, and I feel that any possible romantic relationship between them is purposely portrayed as something that is meant to be seen as negative, and despite a tremendous lack of development, at least NH doesn't have such negativity attached to it. Though I can certainly see your reason for feeling so opposed to NaruHina.

 

 

It is definitely quite annoying when Hinata's role in the Pein arc is so grossly over glorified. Her actions were desperate and ignorant; she should never have gone out there, all alone and without any plan of action, nothing she did could have helped Naruto in that situation and she was no match for Pein.

People claim she deserves credit because she triggered the Kyuubi and thus saved Naruto, but that interpretation feels much too selective to me. The seal was already weak, and Naruto was at his limits, I truly don't think it would have taken much at all to push him over the edge, and if Minato had not been there to stop him, Naruto would have died, basically committing suicide as you said, and his soul pretty much consumed by the Kyuubi. If there is anyone deserving of credit, it would be Minato and his foresight to seal his remaining chakra into an infant Naruto.

 

One thing I would like to point out though, it appears Hinata did know of the Kyuubi beforehand:

 

1627-35210603-14.jpg

 

Everyone reads it all differently.  I couldn't see SS working out unless things were tweaked --if Sakura was able to act as herself, if Sasuke didn't put above all other things, if Sasuke's bond with Sakura went beyond team 7-- things would need to change, but small things.  I just couldn't see Naruto and Hinata working out in the long run unless there were drastic changes to one or both of the characters.  Naruto would have to quiet down (how would Hinata react if the attention Naruto got was also focused on her?) etc etc.  Not to mention, I just don't that as she is now Hinata could have a healthy relationship, she needs to learn to love herself first.

 

Yeah, I thought she did know Naruto had Kurama sealed into him but wasn't sure and was unwilling to find the chapter...thanks, but did she know how his transformation was triggered (as he was overcome by negative emotions)?  I think Hinata is an extremely incompetent ninja, but it's obvious that she didn't mean for Naruto to transform.  Her actions could have caused Naruto's suicide, and I do blame her when I get really annoyed with her (like whenever I think about her too much, ugh), but her intention wasn't malicious.  Blaming for her incompetence as a ninja, her selfishness, the fact that she was a bystander etc etc is all fine IMO, as long as she's not characterized as malicious.
 

 

 

It certainly seems quite significant to me that Kishimoto thought Sakura's reaction was so important. She is the only one we see worrying about what being a jinchuuriki means for Naruto, the burden and danger it poses to him. None of the other rookies reactions have ever been shown, not even Hinata's, who apparently cares about him more. :facepalm:  

 

Does Hinata care about him, or his nindo?

 

 


Nice find on the Hinata knowing about Kyubi thing. I guess that she did know about the Kyubi, the question is did she know how to trigger it and it's effects. Makes me think that Sakura might have hung back during that fight bc she was afraid of her pain triggering Naruto's transformation. Especially after she saw what happened when Orochimaru taunted Naruto about Sasuke.

 

Well, she didn't really know what was going on, did she?  She was getting reports from the Hyuga who was next to her, but she couldn't see, she was far away and she wasn't near anyone to plan.  I'd like to think Sakura isn't an incompetent ninja who jumps in when she knows she'd be in over her head.  When it mattered, she fulfilled her role perfectly.  She stepped up as the Hokage's apprentice, tried to get survivors away from Naruto as he was undergoing his transformation, saved Hinata's life.  People praise Hinata for jumping in, but I don't think that her actions are supposed to be praiseworthy.  She did nothing special, every single Konoha ninja was ready and willing to die for Naruto, was ready and willing to sacrifice the village for Naruto.  The difference between what they did vs what Hinata did was that Hinata illustrated that she could not function properly as a ninja, that a genin like Konohamaru contributed more and was a better tactician than Hinata.  But that's forgotten, that's ignored, it's as if some believe Hinata's willingness to die for Naruto was special or that she actually did something positive.



#10607 Psychox

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:29 PM

Do you think Hinata (and sasuke) know (and/or acknowledge) that naruto love sakura?

Sasuke ships NS.

Sasukes-talk-to-Sakura.jpg

While others say Naruto supports SS and it will make it cannon. :zaru:


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#10608 rikakim94

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:01 PM

 

Everyone reads it all differently.  I couldn't see SS working out unless things were tweaked --if Sakura was able to act as herself, if Sasuke didn't put above all other things, if Sasuke's bond with Sakura went beyond team 7-- things would need to change, but small things.  I just couldn't see Naruto and Hinata working out in the long run unless there were drastic changes to one or both of the characters.  Naruto would have to quiet down (how would Hinata react if the attention Naruto got was also focused on her?) etc etc.  Not to mention, I just don't that as she is now Hinata could have a healthy relationship, she needs to learn to love herself first.

 

Yeah, I thought she did know Naruto had Kurama sealed into him but wasn't sure and was unwilling to find the chapter...thanks, but did she know how his transformation was triggered (as he was overcome by negative emotions)?  I think Hinata is an extremely incompetent ninja, but it's obvious that she didn't mean for Naruto to transform.  Her actions could have caused Naruto's suicide, and I do blame her when I get really annoyed with her (like whenever I think about her too much, ugh), but her intention wasn't malicious.  Blaming for her incompetence as a ninja, her selfishness, the fact that she was a bystander etc etc is all fine IMO, as long as she's not characterized as malicious.
 

 

 

Does Hinata care about him, or his nindo?

 

 

 

Well, she didn't really know what was going on, did she?  She was getting reports from the Hyuga who was next to her, but she couldn't see, she was far away and she wasn't near anyone to plan.  I'd like to think Sakura isn't an incompetent ninja who jumps in when she knows she'd be in over her head.  When it mattered, she fulfilled her role perfectly.  She stepped up as the Hokage's apprentice, tried to get survivors away from Naruto as he was undergoing his transformation, saved Hinata's life.  People praise Hinata for jumping in, but I don't think that her actions are supposed to be praiseworthy.  She did nothing special, every single Konoha ninja was ready and willing to die for Naruto, was ready and willing to sacrifice the village for Naruto.  The difference between what they did vs what Hinata did was that Hinata illustrated that she could not function properly as a ninja, that a genin like Konohamaru contributed more and was a better tactician than Hinata.  But that's forgotten, that's ignored, it's as if some believe Hinata's willingness to die for Naruto was special or that she actually did something positive.

 

Actually shadow and morgaine as soon as naruto went  kyubbi sakura had other ninjas contacted yamato and there is this one panel where yamato looks at his hand sees naruto seal change to 6 tails to 9 tails.

 

Yup morgaine hinata does overly praised for everything than other characters it even got to the point where the animation studio had to make there own version of hinatas confession. If you want to see what they did go type in naruto shippuden episode 166 and before that they made a short mocking sakura as a herione and had naruto and hinata praise at the fact that studio has hinata fans... :down:  :down: Not only that but the animation studio took more crap into sakura last year when it was around her birthday. -_-    


Edited by rikakim94, 31 October 2013 - 11:08 PM.


#10609 Branden

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:16 PM

I'm actually finished with it but I don't know how to upload videos on here ... :/

upload it to a video hosting website and post a link to it. if you have any more questions google is amazing at teaching people how to upload videos to youtube or other places.

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#10610 KnS

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:19 PM

I think Hinata is an extremely incompetent ninja, but it's obvious that she didn't mean for Naruto to transform.  Her actions could have caused Naruto's suicide, and I do blame her when I get really annoyed with her (like whenever I think about her too much, ugh), but her intention wasn't malicious.  Blaming for her incompetence as a ninja, her selfishness, the fact that she was a bystander etc etc is all fine IMO, as long as she's not characterized as malicious.

 

+1

 

As I've said many times, Hinata is not my definition of a skilled or successful ninja.  Not only does she possess just average or below average abilities, her chronic lack of confidence, fortitude, and shinobi instinct suggests she is a neutral addition at best, and a liability at worst.

 

But that's not really her fault.  That is, by definition, her role in the story.  She's the reflection character who is meant to represent weakness and failure, and who was inspired to try harder because of Naruto's nindo and leadership.

 

Like many others, I cannot personally connect with Hinata or her issues.  As I've said a zillion times, I think she is a nice girl and means well, but I have difficulty feeling any true respect or admiration for her.  And I certainly don't see her as the right match for Naruto.  I can see no way that a relationship between them would be healthy or happy for either of them.  No, no, no.  No.

 

Does Hinata care about him, or his nindo?

 

I think it's both, but overall it's more about his nindo.  I believe Hinata has romantic feelings for Naruto, but I would also like to believe that, deep down, she is realistic about them.  As we've all said many times she doesn't actually know much of anything about Naruto or his life.  She hasn't been around him to understand what really drives him, how he feels about Sakura and Sasuke, his parents, you name it.  

 

Hinata understands that at one point early on Naruto was an underdog like her, someone judged for not being a very skilled ninja.  But he always had her beat confidence-wise, and since those days he has left her in the dust skill-wise and experience-wise.  It's as if he's a boy she had a crush on in grade school, who then went on to become a celebrity.  She knows him but she doesn't understand the journey he's made from childhood to public figure.

 

I may be in the minority, but I believe that Kishimoto has been walking this line with Hinata's feelings all along.  Although he had her think about Naruto's big, strong hand in #615, later (don't remember the chapter) he had her think about how holding his hand gave her confidence, and reminded her that she wanted to be strong enough and brave enough to walk beside him -- on his much stronger and more sophisticated ninja path -- for the rest of her life.

 

It's a combination of her feelings -- her idolization of Naruto from a distance, her gratitude for his attention and inspiration, her thankfulness that he changed her and the path of her life, her desire to be worthy of his example, her hope to reach his level and stay there, along with some girlish feelings of romantic interest.  She loves him, as a person and as a role model, but I'm not convinced she's in love with him the way he is with Sakura.  

 

The way I see it, the foundation of Hinata's feelings for Naruto were always less about romantic love than dependence, fascination, attachment, and worship.  When you contrast the way Hinata's feelings for Naruto were introduced with the way Naruto's feelings for Sakura were introduced, or Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were introduced, you can see that the element of romantic love and attraction was never stated.  Fainting around a boy does not mean you're in love with him; it speaks more of being overwhelmed by a lack of confidence and feeling intimidated.

 

Just my opinion.



#10611 Shadow1275

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:44 PM

Sasuke ships NS.

Sasukes-talk-to-Sakura.jpg

While others say Naruto supports SS and it will make it cannon. :zaru:

Lol.

 

Naruto's pro-Sakura, not Pro SasuSaku. He just wants her to be happy.


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#10612 sushi.

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:49 PM

I wouldn't call Sasuke a NS supporter. He told her the truth because he didn't want to hide it from her. I don't think he purposely told her to acknowledge Naruto more or something like that. He does however, support their happiness. Unless he's in the mood/darkness of course. It is likely he knows of Naruto's affection for her, but might be oblivious to the current state of their relationship. He's been apart from them for so long and so much has changed since he left.


Edited by sushi., 31 October 2013 - 11:49 PM.

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#10613 rikakim94

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:51 PM

After reading the post kns posted  I want to ask do you guys think kishimoto has written himself into a corner with the pairing? Hinata seems way to much of a sympathetic character now and her development is in a limbo. sakura as a herione seems very questionable these days especially when kishi gave hinata to much to shine. And naruto romance isn't isn't taken to seriously these days no wonder people call NS a joke pairing.  :sad:

 

Maybe im beings pessimistic, but thats how i feel about the manga these days.


Edited by rikakim94, 31 October 2013 - 11:54 PM.


#10614 rocci

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:58 PM

@rikarim
That's because kishi intend to make pairing happen in the end of manga.
And kishi hide naruto feeling for almost entirely part two(no wonder people questioning NS legitimation).
Remember the one who make NS happen in the first place is naruto and the one who will make it canon is sakura.

#10615 rikakim94

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:31 AM

@rikarim
That's because kishi intend to make pairing happen in the end of manga.
And kishi hide naruto feeling for almost entirely part two(no wonder people questioning NS legitimation).
Remember the one who make NS happen in the first place is naruto and the one who will make it canon is sakura.

 

I agree and not only that, but when you have hinata trying  kill herself for naruto twice it does make people value hinatas feeling for naruto than naruto feelings for sakura or sakuras feelings for naruto and sasuke. I find this to be very frustrating and to me it does feel like kishi has screwed up. Yes NS can happen, but how is it gonna happen? im more worry about the execution due to the dragged out plot and romance subplot.

 

Sakura can make NS canon in the end however long is Kishi going to make sakura still love sasuke until the end of final arc? Because by then anti's will argue how sakuras love for naruto is nothing or her love for narutos love for sakura isn't beneficial. 


Edited by rikakim94, 01 November 2013 - 12:37 AM.


#10616 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:39 AM

 

I agree and not only that, but when you have hinata trying  kill herself for naruto twice it does make people value hinatas feeling for naruto than naruto feelings for sakura or sakuras feelings for naruto and sasuke. I find this to be very frustrating and to me it does feel like kishi has screwed up. Yes NS can happen, but how is it gonna happen? im more worry about the execution due to the dragged out plot and romance subplot. 

It depends on how you look about that, what about the main character who made a selfless promise about bringing back the guy that your love interest love, we know very well it's a shounen manga where the main character is oblivious to romance, even then on One Piece we got Luffy and Hancock and she did a lot more than Hinata and still he was oblivious to her.

It doesnt justify people talking about NS legitimacy when they do double standards like.

 

Sai says "i can tell you that Naruto loves you"

- Sai bastard you know nothing about the NS bond, Naruto doesnt love Sakura she's his little sister.

Implying he's a guy who doesnt know nothing about relationships.

 

THen after he says that "it's because she loves Sasuke that she will kill him".

- Yes and other type of commentaries.

 

In the end when Sai does something positive on NS and negative on SS he's labelled as a guy who doesnt know nothing about relationships and feelings but whne he points out something about Sakura's feelings for Sasuke he's becames a good character or a genius.

 

Second case.

 

Yamato's 

"Sakura just looking at you in reality you..."

- No he was just pointing out their friendship or that she likes him.

Sakura's thoughts.

"She must love him..." (Hinata Pain's arc).

- OMG SAKURA MATCHMAKER.


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#10617 morgaine4

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:40 AM

 

Actually shadow and morgaine as soon as naruto went  kyubbi sakura had other ninjas contacted yamato and there is this one panel where yamato looks at his hand sees naruto seal change to 6 tails to 9 tails.

 

Yup morgaine hinata does overly praised for everything than other characters it even got to the point where the animation studio had to make there own version of hinatas confession. If you want to see what they did go type in naruto shippuden episode 166 and before that they made a short mocking sakura as a herione and had naruto and hinata praise at the fact that studio has hinata fans... :down:  :down: Not only that but the animation studio took more crap into sakura last year when it was around her birthday. -_-    

 

I might be misremembering, but I don't think Yamato was contacted, I thought Yamato could tell that Naruto was transforming because of the seal he placed on the First's necklace?

 

I actually watched the Pain arc, the Hinata filler within the Pain arc really annoyed me.  I'm OK with fillers as a whole, but there was just too much Hinata during an arc/fight that was about Naruto finally showing the villagers what he's made of.

 

 

 

The way I see it, the foundation of Hinata's feelings for Naruto were always less about romantic love than dependence, fascination, attachment, and worship.  When you contrast the way Hinata's feelings for Naruto were introduced with the way Naruto's feelings for Sakura were introduced, or Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were introduced, you can see that the element of romantic love and attraction was never stated.  Fainting around a boy does not mean you're in love with him; it speaks more of being overwhelmed by a lack of confidence and feeling intimidated.

 

Just my opinion.

 

I agree with your entire post.  Honestly, I find Hinata's love for Naruto to be spiritual in nature rather than romantic or sexual.

 

 

After reading the post kns posted  I want to ask do you guys think kishimoto has written himself into a corner with the pairing? Hinata seems way to much of a sympathetic character now and her development is in a limbo. sakura as a herione seems very questionable these days especially when kishi gave hinata to much to shine. And naruto romance isn't isn't taken to seriously these days no wonder people call NS a joke pairing.  :sad:

 

Maybe im beings pessimistic, but thats how i feel about the manga these days.

 

Not at all, I think among the Western fandom there's a lot of misreading of the manga and a lot of misunderstanding of the characters and relationships.  Hinata isn't an offensive character (I don't like her), but that doesn't mean that she's inspirational --especially when compared to Sakura who doesn't come from a major/influential clan, doesn't have secret clan techniques or a KG etc etc etc-- and I think it's pretty clear that Hinata's development should involve her realization that she should love herself and love her own strength.  Nearly every time Hinata has acted because of her love for Naruto/Naruto's nindo there have been negative consequences (against Neji, when she was distracted while facing Tobi, when fighting Pain, when Neji died).  Really, what makes Hinata different from other characters is in that her "growth" doesn't revolve around loving Naruto more, but the necessary realization that she should trust herself, and her strengths a bit more.  Hinata's great flaw is that she refuses to evaluate herself, that's what she needs to do to grow.  Kishi didn't screw up, he depicts Hinata's willingness to go far for Naruto without coming up with tactics negatively, if anything some of us who  have screwed up for missing this pattern that Kishi has clearly given us.  Honestly, Hinata just isn't that important as a character.  SS/Sasuke is different because that relationship involves three main characters, it's team 7-centric, and Naruto has indicated that he would give up his chance with Sakura so that she's happy, but Kishi has shown us that Sasuke doesn't make Sakura happy (and he never actually did).  Even before 631, I felt that the writing was so obviously in favor of NS that it hurt (it hurt because so many people miss it completely, it hurt because I wasn't in favor of NS).  I think everything needs to be put in terms of the right context/perspective.

 

Anyway, why worry so much about the antis in the West?  As long as my reading in the manga is close to the way in which the majority of Japanese (and even Asian readers in general) read the manga, I'm happy.  =)  Though, I'm also happy if I watch cute doggie videos on YT!


Edited by morgaine4, 01 November 2013 - 12:56 AM.


#10618 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:41 AM

Actually shadow and morgaine as soon as naruto went  kyubbi sakura had other ninjas contacted yamato and there is this one panel where yamato looks at his hand sees naruto seal change to 6 tails to 9 tails.
 
Yup morgaine hinata does overly praised for everything than other characters it even got to the point where the animation studio had to make there own version of hinatas confession. If you want to see what they did go type in naruto shippuden episode 166 and before that they made a short mocking sakura as a herione and had naruto and hinata praise at the fact that studio has hinata fans... :down:  :down: Not only that but the animation studio took more crap into sakura last year when it was around her birthday. -_-


What did they do around her birthday?

#10619 rikakim94

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:28 AM

What did they do around her birthday?

 

They aired an episode where team 7 and hinata was younger from part 1 they made sakura bratty child and bully to naruto and meanwhile hinata is innocent angel whos brave enough to defend her love which im sorry, but it is pretty occ back then she wasn't brave or confident to speak to naruto and fainted half of the time and she never did anything other than watch from afar until the chinun exam and years later. :ermm:

Also why did they always have to bring the bad traits of the part one days of Naruto? Can the just accept the fact sakura is changing to a better person now and support kishi's work?. oh, but making fun of the character they hate is more easier i guess.   :down:

 

Anyway I also remember when the studio also aired an episode where naruto and he's friend had a bbq party and the anime team again poke fun of sakura and made sulk in a corner meanwhile hinata is strong confident women that talks to her friends and enjoys the party with naruto. And there was this one episode where they had tsunade out of all people drink alcohol with hinata.  :facepalm:  :facepalm:

 

At this point i despise the studio for being unprofessional with there biasness i know right they try to cover up there tracks of mishandling sakura, but to me the damage has been done to lose respect for that studio. -_- However the only remaining respect i have is the recent decent quality animation they gave with madara's first appearance and naruto juubi's transformation. 

 

When hinata's 615 moment comes up i guarantee that its going to sugar coated as much as the anime's pein arc.   


Edited by rikakim94, 01 November 2013 - 01:59 AM.


#10620 shadow_Uzumaki

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:32 AM

http://www.memecente...y-than-twilight  :lulz:

 

Probably the first canon pairing in the series.






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